Quiet One

Dark Times Ahead For Mclaren

268 posts in this topic

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:roll::roll::roll::nono: I didn't know the last part of the story. They are stupid???? WTF were they thinking in Malasia lying again? :lolroll::loljump: Who's pinocchio?

:lol::lol:

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...which meant no one was praising him for his uber cool drive was a little too hard for lewis to take. And on top of that he is called a liar for being a team player.

Are you joking? Come On! Oh, no one was praising him... I'm sure it was nothing compared to what they used to do when Alonso won a race or grabbed a pole position or achieved a good result in 2007. The face of the team when Alonso beat Hamilton could be a little too hard for Alonso. God!

A team player? We thought he was completely attached to McLaren, we thought he was a loyal team member and a faithful team player but we were wrong. They missed their chance to let Alonso become attached to them and now they have to deal with Ron Dennis' monster. They deserve what they have.

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Sure. Lying to disqualify another driver in order to steal a position is a "small" thing. Diminutive. Lilliputian.

Lewisterics.

:lol: The kind of idotic response I was expecting, the debate was all about what happened two weeks back, not two years back....

Edited by abbas_gear

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Also where was Lewis's supposedly "I'm a team player" hat when he refused to let Alonso maintain the lead and fumed at RD in 2007 Monaco.

And by "no one" I mean the media Alehop not Mclaren

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Andres, do you see what you've done? :lol:

This thread is like a time machine back to all the BS from 07...

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Andres, do you see what you've done? :lol:

This thread is like a time machine back to all the BS from 07...

I know!

I've hesitated to even start this thread because of the anger which the previous one was received. I knew I would get some heat because I always talk about my favouritism towards Nando. But this is a rather serious matter: McLaren, Mercedes, Hamilton, Ron Dennis, Whitmarsh, Ryan...all facing or faced serious decisions that will certainly influence their permanence in F1 or the outcome of this season. And yet we won't discuss it because its " a fuss about nothing"? "a vengeance against Hamilton/McLaren (your choice here)"?

This is the story. I know it will get ugly from both sides. But I think this is more important than discussing Vettel vs Kubica. And I will continue discussing this no matter what.

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I know!

I've hesitated to even start this thread because of the anger which the previous one was received. I knew I would get some heat because I always talk about my favouritism towards Nando. But this is a rather serious matter: McLaren, Mercedes, Hamilton, Ron Dennis, Whitmarsh, Ryan...all facing or faced serious decisions that will certainly influence their permanence in F1 or the outcome of this season. And yet we won't discuss it because its " a fuss about nothing"? "a vengeance against Hamilton/McLaren (your choice here)"?

This is the story. I know it will get ugly from both sides. But I think this is more important than discussing Vettel vs Kubica. And I will continue discussing this no matter what.

Well I don't mind (anyone) discussing it, but my POV is that we already covered it in the other thread, we had a fairly sensible discussion about it all and reached a sort of reasonable conclusion - as I see it nothing has really changed about this story since then.

Anyway like I said, no problem with it being discussed, I just don't think this thread will be such a good discussion as in the other one, so I won't be wasting my time (on this at least :lol: ).

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I was going to write the funniest post ever but got bored. It was all about how I should live up to Andr

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I know!

I've hesitated to even start this thread because of the anger which the previous one was received. I knew I would get some heat because I always talk about my favouritism towards Nando. But this is a rather serious matter: McLaren, Mercedes, Hamilton, Ron Dennis, Whitmarsh, Ryan...all facing or faced serious decisions that will certainly influence their permanence in F1 or the outcome of this season. And yet we won't discuss it because its " a fuss about nothing"? "a vengeance against Hamilton/McLaren (your choice here)"?

This is the story. I know it will get ugly from both sides. But I think this is more important than discussing Vettel vs Kubica. And I will continue discussing this no matter what.

I would've dropped this also till I saw the part were in the face of evidence they persisted in the lie, how stupid and flat out dumb. Abbas you need to take off the silver and red glasses and see the wrong that they've done.

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Also where was Lewis's supposedly "I'm a team player" hat when he refused to let Alonso maintain the lead and fumed at RD in 2007 Monaco.

And by "no one" I mean the media Alehop not Mclaren

Sorry I was misled. :D

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I was going to write the funniest post ever but got bored. It was all about how I should live up to Andr

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I would've dropped this also till I saw the part were in the face of evidence they persisted in the lie, how stupid and flat out dumb. Abbas you need to take off the silver and red glasses and see the wrong that they've done.

Bruce,

I get what you mean, but if I am sure no one(other than Flavio and Mario) would bother to say one thing bad about BrawnGP, Williams or Toyota if their diffusers are declared illegal. If it was Mclaren or even Ferrari to an extend who used those diffusers I am sure the gang which always throws the s##t up would always make threads after threads for the next decate oh how Mclaren used an illegal device. Things got out of control in Mclaren camp, even a (not so well respected) driver Ralf said last sunday that those sort of lies are not the first case, and any driver would have told the stewards what he was instructed to tell.

Just a small case blown out of proportion by the FIA when there are many other things like Racing in darkness during monsoon season has to be taken care off.

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Well I don't mind (anyone) discussing it, but my POV is that we already covered it in the other thread, we had a fairly sensible discussion about it all and reached a sort of reasonable conclusion - as I see it nothing has really changed about this story since then.

You are right, we had a fairly sensible discussion. :thbdn: But we didn't know they were still lying once, twice and thrice in Malaysia. The stewards called them out just to clarify their behaviour and give them a chance to tell the whole truth. That's something we didn't know before.

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I would've dropped this also till I saw the part were in the face of evidence they persisted in the lie, how stupid and flat out dumb. Abbas you need to take off the silver and red glasses and see the wrong that they've done.

:lol: A little harsh but yes, Shaliq, you need to understand that this is not just a matter of sour grapes from fans of other teams. You know me, you know I would eventually admit if I was writing all this out of mere animosity towards Lewis or McLaren. But I think that the prospect of one of the pillar teams of F1, or the reigning WDC, to either withdraw from F1 or undergo serious changes or even facing a ban is a matter worth discussing. Closing your eyes won't make the lies disappear.

James Allen (a Lewisteric, if somebody ever deserved that label) has wrote some very good posts about it in his blog. He is disappointed. No crime in that.

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:lol: A little harsh but yes, Shaliq, you need to understand that this is not just a matter of sour grapes from fans of other teams. You know me, you know I would eventually admit if I was writing all this out of mere animosity towards Lewis or McLaren. But I think that the prospect of one of the pillar teams of F1, or the reigning WDC, to either withdraw from F1 or undergo serious changes or even facing a ban is a matter worth discussing. Closing your eyes won't make the lies disappear.

James Allen (a Lewisteric, if somebody ever deserved that label) has wrote some very good posts about it in his blog. He is disappointed. No crime in that.

I was not talking about you Andres, infact you only highlighted the issue that Mclaren are facing, Was talking about the ones who keep saying the same thing over and over for years, like bringing in what happened during 2007 etc etc.....I don't need to name them.

All I am saying is that the situation is being blown out of proportion by many people.

Edited by abbas_gear

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I know!

I've hesitated to even start this thread because of the anger which the previous one was received. I knew I would get some heat because I always talk about my favouritism towards Nando. But this is a rather serious matter: McLaren, Mercedes, Hamilton, Ron Dennis, Whitmarsh, Ryan...all facing or faced serious decisions that will certainly influence their permanence in F1 or the outcome of this season. And yet we won't discuss it because its " a fuss about nothing"? "a vengeance against Hamilton/McLaren (your choice here)"?

This is the story. I know it will get ugly from both sides. But I think this is more important than discussing Vettel vs Kubica. And I will continue discussing this no matter what.

No problem in starting a topic which highlights an issue which is serious, a threat Mclaren is facing...for a crime which can only be linked with a petty theft....

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All I am saying is that the situation is being blown out of proportion by many people.

Yeah I agree with that. McLaren made terrible mistakes nevertheless.

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I was going to write the funniest post ever but got bored. It was all about how I should live up to Andr

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I was not talking about you Andres, infact you only highlighted the issue that Mclaren are facing, Was talking about the ones who keep saying the same thing over and over for years, like bringing in what happened during 2007 etc etc.....I don't need to name them.

Fair enough when we are talking about cheap digs.

All I am saying is that the situation is being blown out of proportion by many people.

Here we disagree. This is not a petty theft. This is not a situation being blown out of proportion by some forum members, by Flavio Briatore or by Alonso. Even if you think the guys just made a little lie (something I don't agree AT ALL), by now it is rather obvious that the FIA doesn't thinks so, Daddy Hamilton doesn't thinks so, Lewis Hamilton doesn't thinks so, Ryan probably doesn't thinks so, Whitmarsh doesn't thinks so, Ron Dennis doesn't thinks so, Mercedes doesn't think so and the McLaren shareholders don't think so.

Let's review again the consequences of this "petty theft":

- (Fact) FIA summoned McLaren over 5 charges of bringing the sport into disrepute.

- (Rumour) Daddy Hamilton is mad at McLaren and wants to take his son somewhere else as far away from Macca as possible, Brawn is being named, maybe even out of F1.

- (Apparently confirmed) Lewis went to talk to Mosley about all this.

- (Fact) Ryan, a McLaren employee for 35 years and one key element of the team, has been sacked.

- (Fact) Whitmarsh admitted that he doesn't know if he will continue in charge.

- (Rumour) Ron Dennis might resign as well.

- (Rumour) Mercedes had enough with all the scandals around Macca and is thinking of pulling out of Macca or maybe from F1.

- (Fact) McLaren's shareholders will meet this month to discuss these matters and probably about Whitmarsh's situation.

And nothing of this is worth discussing?

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Fair enough when we are talking about cheap digs.

Here we disagree. This is not a petty theft. This is not a situation being blown out of proportion by some forum members, by Flavio Briatore or by Alonso. Even if you think the guys just made a little lie (something I don't agree AT ALL), by now it is rather obvious that the FIA doesn't thinks so, Daddy Hamilton doesn't thinks so, Lewis Hamilton doesn't thinks so, Ryan probably doesn't thinks so, Whitmarsh doesn't thinks so, Ron Dennis doesn't thinks so, Mercedes doesn't think so and the McLaren shareholders don't think so.

Let's review again the consequences of this "petty theft":

- (Fact) FIA summoned McLaren over 5 charges of bringing the sport into disrepute.

- (Rumour) Daddy Hamilton is mad at McLaren and wants to take his son somewhere else as far away from Macca as possible, Brawn is being named, maybe even out of F1.

- (Apparently confirmed) Lewis went to talk to Mosley about all this.

- (Fact) Ryan, a McLaren employee for 35 years and one key element of the team, has been sacked.

- (Fact) Whitmarsh admitted that he doesn't know if he will continue in charge.

- (Rumour) Ron Dennis might resign as well.

- (Rumour) Mercedes had enough with all the scandals around Macca and is thinking of pulling out of Macca or maybe from F1.

- (Fact) McLaren's shareholders will meet this month to discuss these matters and probably about Whitmarsh's situation.

And nothing of this is worth discussing?

Well it's worth discussing, but unlike with Spygate there is not a lot of scope for discussion, since the facts are so clear.

That's why the majority of posts in this thread are just 'Mclaren are liars' etc etc, which while true, doesn't really get us anywhere.

The only thing left to discuss will be the FIA's reaction in the hearing, and any after shocks from that, we will be able to judge whether any punishments are too harsh or not.

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Fair enough when we are talking about cheap digs.

Here we disagree. This is not a petty theft. This is not a situation being blown out of proportion by some forum members, by Flavio Briatore or by Alonso. Even if you think the guys just made a little lie (something I don't agree AT ALL), by now it is rather obvious that the FIA doesn't thinks so, Daddy Hamilton doesn't thinks so, Lewis Hamilton doesn't thinks so, Ryan probably doesn't thinks so, Whitmarsh doesn't thinks so, Ron Dennis doesn't thinks so, Mercedes doesn't think so and the McLaren shareholders don't think so.

Let's review again the consequences of this "petty theft":

- (Fact) FIA summoned McLaren over 5 charges of bringing the sport into disrepute.

- (Rumour) Daddy Hamilton is mad at McLaren and wants to take his son somewhere else as far away from Macca as possible, Brawn is being named, maybe even out of F1.

- (Apparently confirmed) Lewis went to talk to Mosley about all this.

- (Fact) Ryan, a McLaren employee for 35 years and one key element of the team, has been sacked.

- (Fact) Whitmarsh admitted that he doesn't know if he will continue in charge.

- (Rumour) Ron Dennis might resign as well.

- (Rumour) Mercedes had enough with all the scandals around Macca and is thinking of pulling out of Macca or maybe from F1.

- (Fact) McLaren's shareholders will meet this month to discuss these matters and probably about Whitmarsh's situation.

And nothing of this is worth discussing?

David Coulthard had an interesting point, he said you trust the team with your life in the car, why wouldn't you trust them if they tell you what to say to the stewards? Personally, I think it's bollocks, but there you go.

Are the stewards going to answer to bringing the sport into disrepute for giving Trulli a 25s penalty with no evidence whatsoever? If it's worth discussing other points, it's worth discussing this as well? Surely, there can't be 1 rule for the teams and 1 rule for the stewards?

Daddy Hamilton is trying to protect his son, as any father would do. Make enough noise and people might hear, but it's all bollocks talk.

Going to Mosley is like making a deal with the devil.

There were 2 macca employees in the room with the stewards. If the fia are baying for blood, one of them has to go..............

Whitmarsh might go, he has to answer because he is in charge. Nothing new there.

Not sure why Ron would resign over this, it's not like he was even there or in charge anymore.

How do you know Mercedes didn't instruct them to lie? That Norbert Haug always looks shifty to me, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

So the shareholders will meet? Probably a big bunch of bollocking liars themselves. They have had their good times, so they take the rough too. I am sure they quite often meet to discuss matters, after all it's an excuse to have caviar and champagne at the company's expense. Nothing new there either.

The fact that macca lied twice is pretty much irrelevant, I think. The fact that they lied when they must have realised that it could easily be disproved by the radio transcripts, is what is so stupid. Also, once you start down the path of lying, then you have to follow it to it's conclusion. It's not like at the 2nd hearing they could say 'noooooo, we never said that at all'.

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David Coulthard had an interesting point, he said you trust the team with your life in the car, why wouldn't you trust them if they tell you what to say to the stewards? Personally, I think it's bollocks, but there you go.

:lol: I think it's bollocks, too. If the teams tells you "go and crash at 300mph straight into that concrete wall", saying "I'd rather not" isn't something that weird. Drivers aren't mindless drones...well, most of them anyways. Many times they argue about tire strategy or ask for more downforce. Would it be denying to tell a suicidal lie that you know it would take 5 minutes to uncover (unless you tell it to the FIA, that is...they take a little longer) asking too much?

Are the stewards going to answer to bringing the sport into disrepute for giving Trulli a 25s penalty with no evidence whatsoever? If it's worth discussing other points, it's worth discussing this as well? Surely, there can't be 1 rule for the teams and 1 rule for the stewards?

Yes it is worth discussing. Personally, I have no idea why the first hearing and subsequent punishment was based just on the drivers and team memebers depositions. It is a matter entirely parallell to the lie-gate, imho. But yes, it is worth discussing.

Daddy Hamilton is trying to protect his son, as any father would do. Make enough noise and people might hear, but it's all bollocks talk.

It's just a rumour as far as I know. And if true, it is, of course, a case of a dad protecting his son. I am not questioning that. If it is true, it just makes a stronger case that the situation is really serious if the Hamilton want to break their wedding vows with McLaren and look for greener pastures. That belies the "much ado about nothing" argument, that's all.

Going to Mosley is like making a deal with the devil.

I agree. I just wonder what has been said there.

There were 2 macca employees in the room with the stewards. If the fia are baying for blood, one of them has to go..............

Thtere were 2 Macca employees in two different hearings in two different countries at two different moments.. Doesn't it make you wonder if they didn't comment this with anybody else before, after or in between hearings? You said the FIA is guilty for just believing whatever crap the two guys were feeding them. What about Macca not asking them anything? Or did they lie to Macca too? Nobody at McLaren wanted to know what was said? What the FIA asked them? What they told to FIA? Whitmarsh went forward to say that nor Lewis nor Ryan lied. But later he acted as if he never knew what they said? So he also lied?

Whitmarsh might go, he has to answer because he is in charge. Nothing new there.

It is new. Let's put aside the reasons behind his dismissal/resignment if it happens. But what about the future of McLaren? He was Ron's heir. Nobody cares what will happen with McLaren if he leaves? Will the team fall apart? Who can take charge? What changes will that imply?

Not sure why Ron would resign over this, it's not like he was even there or in charge anymore.

The rumours say that it would be a deal made with the Hamiltons. Apparently, RD was upset about Lewis public confession. And Lewis is upset about the team's behavior so the deal would be: RD leaves so Hamilton stays. It doesn't make much sense to me. But rumours are like that :lol:

How do you know Mercedes didn't instruct them to lie? That Norbert Haug always looks shifty to me, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

:lol: Yeah, Haug looks kind of threatening. Maybe it was Mercedes which instructed them to lie. Why not? I cannot possibly know that because NOBODY WANTS TO FRIGGIN' DISCUSS THIS!!! (Except for a few honourable exceptions...and you :P ). Geez, I am not asking you people to discuss about penis sizes (even if I am already laughing at your pitiful measures compared to my mighty 2 inches.

So the shareholders will meet? Probably a big bunch of bollocking liars themselves. They have had their good times, so they take the rough too. I am sure they quite often meet to discuss matters, after all it's an excuse to have caviar and champagne at the company's expense. Nothing new there either.

Let's assume they lie (it seems since LH lied, we will need to assume everybody is a liar...I am glad LH didn't kill anybody!). They probably lie to the tax collecting authorities, for example. Does that mean it is good? Does that mean they deserve no fine if they are caught? The "everybody does the same" argument can't go very far. Because not everybody cheats, and everybody who cheats and is caught is penalized, so it ends up being somewhat of a tautology

The fact that macca lied twice is pretty much irrelevant, I think. The fact that they lied when they must have realised that it could easily be disproved by the radio transcripts, is what is so stupid. Also, once you start down the path of lying, then you have to follow it to it's conclusion. It's not like at the 2nd hearing they could say 'noooooo, we never said that at all'.

I agree with the first part. As for the second part, why not backpedalling? They did that in public which was a million times more humilliating and harmful when they were caught by the FIA. They could have said the same stupid things Whitmarsh tried to say in public...only in private to the FIA stewards. Knowing what is at stake, the stewards wouldn't have been so harsh as long as it could have been kept under wraps. After all losing McLaren or Hamilton will be harmful for Bernie's income. But having a bunch of incompetent liars around isn't too helpful after everybody knows their lies...

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