Quiet One

Dark Times Ahead For Mclaren

268 posts in this topic

HAPPILY lived Mankind in the peaceful Valley of Ignorance.

To the north, to the south, to the west and to the east stretched the ridges of the Hills Everlasting.

A little stream of Knowledge trickled slowly through a deep worn gully.

It came out of the Mountains of the Past.

It lost itself in the Mashes of the Future.

It was not much, as rivers go. But it was enough for the humble needs of the villagers.

In the evening, when they had watered their cattle and had filled their casks, they were content to sit down to enjoy life.

The Old Men Who Knew were brought forth from the shady corners where they had spent their day, pondering over the mysterious pages of an old book.

They mumbled strange words to their grandchildren, who would have preferred to play with the pretty pebbles, brought down from distant lands.wow power leveling,

Often these words were not very clear.

But they were written a thousand years ago by a forgotten race. Hence they were holy.

For in the Valley of Ignorance, whatever was old was venerable. And, those who dared to gainsay the wisdom of the fathers, were shunned by all decent people.

And so they kept their peace.

Fear was ever with them. What if they should be refused the common share of the products of the garden?

Vague stories there were, whispered at night among the narrow streets of the little town, vague stories of men and women who had dared to ask questions.

They had gone forth, and never again had they been seen.

A few had tried to scale the high walls of the rocky range that hid the sun.

Their whitened bones lay at the foot of the cliffs.

The years came and the years went by.

Happily lived Mankind in the peaceful Valley of Ignorance.

Out of the darkness crept a man.

The nails of his hands were torn.

His feet were covered with rags, red with the blood of long marches.

He stumbled to the door of the nearest hut and knocked.

Then he fainted. By the light of a frightened candle, he was carried to a cot.

In the morning throughout the village it was known: "He has come back."

The neighbors stood around and shook their heads. They had always known that this was to be the end.

Defeat and surrender awaited those who dared to stroll away from the foot of the mountains.

And in one corner of the village the Old Men shook their heads and whispered burning words.

They did not mean to be cruel, but the Law was the Law. Bitterly this man had sinned against the wishes of Those Who Knew.world of warcraft power leveling,

As soon as his wounds were healed he must be brought to trial.

They meant to be lenient.

They remembered the strange, burning eyes of his mother. They recalled the tragedy of his father, lost in the desert these thirty years ago.

The Law, however, was the Law; and the Law must be obeyed.

The Men Who Knew would see to that.

They carried the wanderer to the Market Place, and the people stood around in respectful silence.

He was still weak from hunger and thirst and the Elders bade him sit down.

He refused.

They ordered him to be silent.

But he spoke.

Upon the Old Man he turned his back and his eyes sought those who but a short time before had been his comrades.

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Fair enough when we are talking about cheap digs.

Here we disagree. This is not a petty theft. This is not a situation being blown out of proportion by some forum members, by Flavio Briatore or by Alonso. Even if you think the guys just made a little lie (something I don't agree AT ALL), by now it is rather obvious that the FIA doesn't thinks so, Daddy Hamilton doesn't thinks so, Lewis Hamilton doesn't thinks so, Ryan probably doesn't thinks so, Whitmarsh doesn't thinks so, Ron Dennis doesn't thinks so, Mercedes doesn't think so and the McLaren shareholders don't think so.

Let's review again the consequences of this "petty theft":

- (Fact) FIA summoned McLaren over 5 charges of bringing the sport into disrepute.

- (Rumour) Daddy Hamilton is mad at McLaren and wants to take his son somewhere else as far away from Macca as possible, Brawn is being named, maybe even out of F1.

- (Apparently confirmed) Lewis went to talk to Mosley about all this.

- (Fact) Ryan, a McLaren employee for 35 years and one key element of the team, has been sacked.

- (Fact) Whitmarsh admitted that he doesn't know if he will continue in charge.

- (Rumour) Ron Dennis might resign as well.

- (Rumour) Mercedes had enough with all the scandals around Macca and is thinking of pulling out of Macca or maybe from F1.

- (Fact) McLaren's shareholders will meet this month to discuss these matters and probably about Whitmarsh's situation.

And nothing of this is worth discussing?

All these defensive actions were taken only after FIA made it look serious and Mclaren had no other option but to react in such desperate ways. FIA is the motrosport verison of Taliban Regime if you like it or not. And Max is their leader, just like most of the present Religious leader he himself is a hippocrate.(cheated his family and yet managed to make himself look like the victim) The whole thing is the cause of steward's incompetence, had they clarified the doubts of Mclaren do you think we will be discusing this Andres? All these so called court hearings and bulls##t is to cover up the bad job they do. Handing out a penalty to Vettel for a racing inciedent is itself an example. They say they want to encourage overtaking and boy they do well. Even lapping a car is a huge risk.

As I told earlier, in the end of the day, its us fans who are the clowns! :P

Back to the topic, I stress again, it was FIA's fault that started all this.

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Jeez ok Macca got it wrong and Hamilton has came out of it looking an a##, but wtf are people talking about bans and constructors wipeouts. I don't even think the guy should've lost his job but whenever something involves a Mclaren, a Ferrari or Alonso things get blown out of all proportion and people start screaming for the most draconian penalties. I don't see either why Hamilton is talking about leaving the team, he should shut up, hope whatever punishment comes is appropriate and drive as best as he can for the team who helped him win the WDC.

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Are the stewards going to answer to bringing the sport into disrepute for giving Trulli a 25s penalty with no evidence whatsoever? If it's worth discussing other points, it's worth discussing this as well? Surely, there can't be 1 rule for the teams and 1 rule for the stewards?

When I think about football and I imagine a referee asking the players for the truth... Funny.

This is not to say that we can't criticise McLaren and Hamilton, not least for being so Ham-fisted about it. But the thing that strikes me most is that McLaren are always dealt with so much more harshly than everyone else for doing things everyone knows everyone else is doing too. If we want to stamp out cheating and lying in F1, then fine but make a fair and honest attempt. Let's not jump on McLaren then forget about the wider culture of dishonesty they operate in.

And you said you loved F1 politics? It's too much politics and since 2006 it's getting worse and worse.

I agree with the first part. As for the second part, why not backpedalling?

That's the most amazing part of the whole story.

I don't see either why Hamilton is talking about leaving the team, he should shut up, hope whatever punishment comes is appropriate and drive as best as he can for the team who helped him win the WDC.

He can do whatever suits him better but he shouldn't pretend he is something he is not.

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Jeez ok Macca got it wrong and Hamilton has came out of it looking an a##, but wtf are people talking about bans and constructors wipeouts. I don't even think the guy should've lost his job but whenever something involves a Mclaren, a Ferrari or Alonso things get blown out of all proportion and people start screaming for the most draconian penalties. I don't see either why Hamilton is talking about leaving the team, he should shut up, hope whatever punishment comes is appropriate and drive as best as he can for the team who helped him win the WDC.

I think it's his father that putting him up this nonsense, after all, he is Lewis's manager...let's remember that...

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Hamilton, Ryan refused to change story

By Adam Cooper and Jonathan Noble Thursday, April 9th 2009, 11:45 GMT

Lewis Hamilton and McLaren's former sporting director Dave Ryan refused to change their story about having deliberately let Jarno Trulli through at the Australian Grand Prix, despite being played radio conversations and media interviews that suggested the contrary in their second stewards' hearing at Sepang.

This week's AUTOSPORT reveals that Hamilton and Ryan maintained their stance in that second hearing that Trulli had taken it upon himself to overtake the McLaren in the closing stages of the Melbourne race, even though the stewards presented them with fresh evidence to say they were lying.

In the first detailed account of the stewards' hearings that have resulted in McLaren being called before the FIA's World Motor Sport Council, AUTOSPORT reports that Ryan and Hamilton stuck to their original story when recalled for the second hearing.

An FIA source told AUTOSPORT: "First of all, Lewis heard the radio exchange. It appeared that the strategy was to be extremely vague and not be very direct with the answers. Then the interview where he said, 'I was told to let him through' was played.

"At that point they both got very uncomfortable, but still denied that's what had actually happened.

"It was a bit surreal, this situation where you had the radio evidence and the interview, and they were putting a completely different interpretation on what the words actually meant. But the words were very, very clear."

FIA race director Charlie Whiting has also revealed that Hamilton denied more than once in the original hearing in Australia that he had let Trulli pass him.

Whiting said: "When asked very clearly, 'Did you consciously let him past, did you pull over to let him past', he [Hamilton] said, 'No'. The question was asked more than once. He was adamant that he hadn't slowed down and hadn't let Trulli past."

This week's AUTOSPORT contains a full analysis of what happened on track and in the stewards' room in the controversy, as well as a look at what the situation means for McLaren's future.

Edited by DOF_Renault_BMW

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Also, once you start down the path of lying, then you have to follow it to it's conclusion. It's not like at the 2nd hearing they could say 'noooooo, we never said that at all'.

I do not agree with this. They had option of saying: "we are sorry, we misunderstood your question a week ago. We apologize for any inconvenience we caused to FIA, Trully, Toyota and F1 fans..." That would be the right thing to do. But, instead, they decided to continue farse. Whoever was in charge of the script for that appearance before stewards deserves to be sued for malicious intent against its employer (McM)! :eusa_think:

Edited by wapi

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I do not agree with this. They had option of saying: "we are sorry, we misunderstood your question a week ago. We apologize for any inconvenience we caused to FIA, Trully, Toyota and F1 fans..." That would be the right thing to do. But, instead, they decided to continue farse. Whoever was in charge of the script for that appearance before stewards deserves to be sued for malicious intent against its employer (McM)! :eusa_think:

Agreed, they have made things worse for themselves, if the genuine apology option had been taken we may not have had to lose a man with 35 years experience as a sacrificial lamb especially if Dave Ryan had been the one to publicly apologise.

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And another thing lol. Why did Charlie Whiting not reply to Mclaren when they asked for clarification? Would it have anything to do with the last time Whiting was asked for clarification on a Hamilton overtake? Namely Spa 2008. :frusty:

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And another thing lol. Why did Charlie Whiting not reply to Mclaren when they asked for clarification? Would it have anything to do with the last time Whiting was asked for clarification on a Hamilton overtake? Namely Spa 2008. :frusty:

This is irrelevant for what happened one hour later.

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And another thing lol. Why did Charlie Whiting not reply to Mclaren when they asked for clarification? Would it have anything to do with the last time Whiting was asked for clarification on a Hamilton overtake? Namely Spa 2008. :frusty:

He has a better excuse than Hammy/Ryan/Whitmarsh. There was a crash (which brought the SC in first place), an ongoing car race, a car going around on 3 wheels and I guess other teams asking their own questions, too.

Whiting was busy. Ryan lied. Hamilton lied. Whitmarsh lied. And then they lied again.

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But the worst thing is the Ryan's sacking. I am pretty sure that he didn't suddenly became so stupid as to lie twice in the face of F1 stewards. The guy has been around for 35 years iirc. Would he throw that all away making such a stupid thing? I can barely stretch my imagination to picture him lieing the first time. I cannot picture him being asked again, showed the recordings and STILL lieing.

Sorry, but I think Ryan's career and honor (whatever it was before all this, I admit I don't know) were thrown to the lions due to a very lame intent of McLaren at damage limitation.

You are absolutely right.

I heard a rumor (it keeps on giving) that the sacking of Ryan was a strategy to eliminate a witness. Apparently, the court cannot bring in to testify people outside of the competition. How about that?

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:lol: The kind of idotic response I was expecting, the debate was all about what happened two weeks back, not two years back....

Ain't you lost. Trulli was disqualified _this_ season because of Hamilton's lies.

Lewisterics.

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And another thing lol. Why did Charlie Whiting not reply to Mclaren when they asked for clarification? Would it have anything to do with the last time Whiting was asked for clarification on a Hamilton overtake? Namely Spa 2008. :frusty:

Apparently, it is not Whiting's place to give such judgements. At least that was what was said after the last fiasco.

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You are absolutely right.

I heard a rumor (it keeps on giving) that the sacking of Ryan was a strategy to eliminate a witness. Apparently, the court cannot bring in to testify people outside of the competition. How about that?

Rumour? Surely just the voices in your head again. Please go take that Sh!t.

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Rumour? Surely just the voices in your head again. Please go take that Sh!t.

More out-of-the-blue hostility.

Amusing.

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Were you there for minutes, clogging the big white telephone, or was it one wipe and gone?

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Were you there for minutes, clogging the big white telephone, or was it one wipe and gone?

From adolecent sexual obsessions to coprophilia.

What's next for you, dribbler?

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Ain't you lost. Trulli was disqualified _this_ season because of Hamilton's lies.

Lewisterics.

Just as I expected, you never fail to amuse me! :P

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Ain't you lost. Trulli was disqualified _this_ season because of Hamilton's lies.

Lewisterics.

But it did'nt stick & Trulli got his podium back!

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Just as I expected, you never fail to amuse me! :P

If only it were true.

But it did'nt stick & Trulli got his podium back!

Not only that. Hamilton hit rock bottom and, well, here you have the lewisterics living it up...

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I suspect the sacking of Ryan is more to do with the fact that if McLaren have been seen to do something then they may escape censure from the FIA.

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I suspect the sacking of Ryan is more to do with the fact that if McLaren have been seen to do something then they may escape censure from the FIA.

It seems that, this way, Ryan cannot be made to testify...

Edited by maure

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