Quiet One

Dark Times Ahead For Mclaren

268 posts in this topic

Abbas own up to your name, right now Maure "owns" you.

You bring up Schumi in Monaco, ha he didn't keep lying to the stewards after the penalty, Hammy did. He ought to be put paid to the season.

Maure has found a sidekick! wow!

If it is to provoke me like you used to do Cav, please try harder..... :P

Micheal did not need clarification unlike Hamilton, everyone saw it happen and no one had to ask him if his move was delibrate or not, yes he did lie and deny that his move was not delibrate, and his team defended his move. Everyone knows that. He did say he lost control and FIA found it was a delibrate and punished, end of it...Yet FIA went on to check the details like transcripts....

I can save you the trouble of digging out the old news...here is what FIA told..

"Find that having set a fast time in sector 1 the driver lost time in sector 2, arrived at turn 18 at a speed little if any different from his previous fastest lap and braked with such force that his front wheels locked up requiring the driver to regain control of the car. The driver ultimately did so without hitting the barrier on the outside of turn 18. The engine of the car subsequently stalled with the result that the car partially blocked the track.

"Having compared all relevant data the Stewards can find no justifiable reason for the driver to have braked with such undue, excessive and unusual pressure at this part of the circuit and are therefore left with no alternative but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit in the last few minutes of Qualifying at a time at which he had thus far set the fastest lap time."

Edited by Bernie Ecclestone

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Oh shut up Rob Smedley! :P

Oh God this is so confusing, Muzza is Max, Abbas is Bernie, Andres is Rob Smedley.....

Well if you can't beat them, join them....

<<< I'm going to be banned anyway :D

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Maure has found a sidekick! wow!

If it is to provoke me like you used to do Cav, please try harder..... :P

Micheal did not need clarification unlike Hamilton, everyone saw it happen and no one had to ask him if his move was delibrate or not, yes he did lie and deny that his move was not delibrate, and his team defended his move. Everyone knows that. He did say he lost control and FIA found it was a delibrate and punished, end of it...Yet FIA went on to check the details like transcripts....

I can save you the trouble of digging out the old news...here is what FIA told..

"Find that having set a fast time in sector 1 the driver lost time in sector 2, arrived at turn 18 at a speed little if any different from his previous fastest lap and braked with such force that his front wheels locked up requiring the driver to regain control of the car. The driver ultimately did so without hitting the barrier on the outside of turn 18. The engine of the car subsequently stalled with the result that the car partially blocked the track.

"Having compared all relevant data the Stewards can find no justifiable reason for the driver to have braked with such undue, excessive and unusual pressure at this part of the circuit and are therefore left with no alternative but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit in the last few minutes of Qualifying at a time at which he had thus far set the fastest lap time."

But he didn't lie twice. End of.

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You're completely right Bruce. Nevertheless we all accept he did lie to the stewards. He was just smarter about it and the FIA didn't go after him.

I still think everyone is forgetting that professional sportsmen lie. They do. Every one of them. All the time.

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You're completely right Bruce. Nevertheless we all accept he did lie to the stewards. He was just smarter about it and the FIA didn't go after him.

I still think everyone is forgetting that professional sportsmen lie. They do. Every one of them. All the time.

We all lie Max! :P

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Schumacher was clever, he lied but nobody could prove he was lying. However Hamilton... God!

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Schumacher was clever, he lied but nobody could prove he was lying. However Hamilton... God!

After lynching a liar suddenly another liar is being praised! :clap3:

so you mean that one needs to have a style for that?

Bloody hippocrates! :lol:

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I still think everyone is forgetting that professional sportsmen lie. They do. Every one of them. All the time.

You are kidding, right?

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Perhaps exaggerating a little to make a point, but no more than everyone else seems to be doing when singling out McLaren.

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After lynching a liar suddenly another liar is being praised! :clap3:

so you mean that one needs to have a style for that?

Bloody hippocrates! :lol:

Personally, I thought (until now) that the Monacogate was one of the worst shames in F1. Worse than the Senna-Prost, Prost-Senna, Schumi-Hill stupid moves.

But this is worse. Why? It is very simple:

1) Monaco, as obvious as it was to most people, still needed some basis to become a proven fact. The only basis to proof Schumi's intent to cheat could come from the telemetry. Telemetry can give you lots of data, but in the end it became a matter of subjectivity. Telemetry proved that what he did was indead weird and out of the ordinary. But was it cheating? Most people (me included) think so. But there is still a tiny bit of room for doubt for those who don't want to believe. Did he cheat? I am 99.999% sure he did.

2) Oz 2009, Hamilton and Ryan lie to the stewards. Was there an intent of cheating? Until the second hearing you could defend that they were just mistaken, or that it was some kind of misunderstanding. Again, highly improbable, but still sustainable in the same way the Monacogate was sustained. They could have ended up looking like cheaters to everybody except McLaren/Hamilton fans. But after the second hearing...geez...what else do you need? The guy was being shown the radio transmissions and he still kept denying everything. I am not amazed if they get yet another draconian punishment. I am amazed the stewards didn't punch him in the face for taking them as complete idiots.

I don't praise Schumi. I think he just tainted his own brilliant career with no need. Same goes for Hamilton.

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Perhaps exaggerating a little to make a point, but no more than everyone else seems to be doing when singling out McLaren.

McLaren singled out themselves. Please provide a single case similar to this one from other team/driver.

Spreading the wrongdoings of McLaren to all sportsmen is unfair, false and ineffective as far as lessening this situation. And if you are not trying to lessen McLaren's fault, then it is also awfully "misleading" to say the least :P

Edited by Rob Smedley

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I'm tossed on this, I don't think McLaren should get away with this penalty free and I don't think they should be set down for the season , but.....................

You lie in Oz and then when even confronted with the evedence you repeted the lie in Malaysia, serial stupid.

+1 agree (apart from the tossing bit)

You're completely right Bruce. Nevertheless we all accept he did lie to the stewards. He was just smarter about it and the FIA didn't go after him.

I still think everyone is forgetting that professional sportsmen lie. They do. Every one of them. All the time.

Going back to the political nature of F1 - that's exactly what encourages an atmosphere in which lies become par for the course.

Let them put the fastest cars on the track that they can (just limit weight and overall dimensions). Simplify all this s##t about what overtaking can and can't happen and when, when and how the pitlane is open/closed etc. And finally set out a list of consistent penalties for infringments. All this complexity leads teams to think they can take the p**s.

The clever ones are able "bend" the rules, the dumb one's "break" them. The difference between break and bend seem largely subjective and it just depends on who argues best.

PS - Vettel doesn't lie - he's grrrrrrrreat.

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Shaliq, baby, stay cool!

:coolio:

:lol: Get him his clear visor, NOW!

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After lynching a liar suddenly another liar is being praised! :clap3:

I'm not lynching Lewis while praising Schumi. I was talking about how they did it.

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McLaren singled out themselves. Please provide a single case similar to this one from other team/driver.

Spreading the wrongdoings of McLaren to all sportsmen is unfair, false and ineffective as far as lessening this situation. And if you are not trying to lessen McLaren's fault, then it is also awfully "misleading" to say the least :P

See below for an example. Although it's is not exactly the same, as tends to be the case in real life, I don't think it differs in the relevant details.

But first, I'm not trying to lessen the situation. I've said (long before Spygate even) that McLaren cheat and lie and if you want to punish them for that then fine. I think you are being misleading in this thread though, or at least you are misguided. :P You're giving the impression that what Hamilton/McLaren did is somehow morally worse than what happens every day in F1. It was dumber than usual for F1, but not less ethical.

You and I have both said we hate Hamilton/Alonso respectively (although of course you are just pretending) and we both talk about them cheating. But when I bring up Alonso's cheating, I never say he was the only one cheating, or that Lewis wouldn't have done the same in his shoes, or that he's somehow an unusually bad person for doing so. Alonso's idealistic fans might have got that impression but if you look back I'm sure you'll see I went to great lengths to say everyone in F1 cheats. Whereas I think you are being a little economical with the truth a la McLaren. :P

Personally, I thought (until now) that the Monacogate was one of the worst shames in F1. Worse than the Senna-Prost, Prost-Senna, Schumi-Hill stupid moves.

But this is worse. Why? It is very simple:

1) Monaco, as obvious as it was to most people, still needed some basis to become a proven fact. The only basis to proof Schumi's intent to cheat could come from the telemetry. Telemetry can give you lots of data, but in the end it became a matter of subjectivity. Telemetry proved that what he did was indead weird and out of the ordinary. But was it cheating? Most people (me included) think so. But there is still a tiny bit of room for doubt for those who don't want to believe. Did he cheat? I am 99.999% sure he did.

2) Oz 2009, Hamilton and Ryan lie to the stewards. Was there an intent of cheating? Until the second hearing you could defend that they were just mistaken, or that it was some kind of misunderstanding. Again, highly improbable, but still sustainable in the same way the Monacogate was sustained. They could have ended up looking like cheaters to everybody except McLaren/Hamilton fans. But after the second hearing...geez...what else do you need? The guy was being shown the radio transmissions and he still kept denying everything. I am not amazed if they get yet another draconian punishment. I am amazed the stewards didn't punch him in the face for taking them as complete idiots.

I don't praise Schumi. I think he just tainted his own brilliant career with no need. Same goes for Hamilton.

You're basically saying there is more scope to defend Schumacher than Hamilton because 'there is still a tiny bit of room for doubt' in the former case but not the latter? I can't find that very persuasive because we all know he did cheat! Even you estimate the likelihood of him cheating in that instance as being 99.999%. The stewards had enough evidence to punish him, and almost all observers agreed.

I agree there's a tiny bit more doubt in Schumi's case but I don't see what that proves in the context of this discussion. Ferrari/Schumi's 'wrongdoing' was just as unethical, but much less dumb, than McLaren/Lewis's.

The clever ones are able "bend" the rules, the dumb one's "break" them. The difference between break and bend seem largely subjective and it just depends on who argues best.

Yes I agree. Lewis and McLaren were dumb, that's for sure.

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As a driver I know you all don't respect Ralf, but I do respect his opinion because he does know more than us...

<h2 class="uppercase clear">Ralf: FIA should drop McLaren case</h2>

Sunday 12th April 2009

Ralf_Schumacher_785018.jpgRalf Schumacher believes that the FIA should not pursue the 'lie-gate' scandal any further as it can only do the sport harm.

With McLaren set to come before an extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council, the Woking-based outfit could face further sanctions after having been found to have deliberately misled race stewards after the Australian GP.

McLaren sporting director Dave Ryan was sacked by the team in the wake of the incident, but the future of team boss Martin Whitmarsh and ace driver Lewis Hamilton still remain in doubt.

Schumacher insists that no further action should be taken against the team in order to preserve the image of the sport and return focus to matters out on the track.

"You could say that this is inexcusable, but I say it should be excused," the 34-year-old was quoted as saying in the German media.

"I have to ask myself why the FIA draws this thing out even further. It is unfortunate that at the moment such an exciting season is overshadowed by such things," he added.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5178578,00.html

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Schumacher was clever, he lied but nobody could prove he was lying.

Prove it.

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I'm not lynching Lewis while praising Schumi. I was talking about how they did it.

Ya....prove it... :lol:

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See below for an example. Although it's is not exactly the same, as tends to be the case in real life, I don't think it differs in the relevant details.

Watching below but I honestly don't know what you meant? You refer to the Monacogate? I explained why it wasn't similar. But, before I get dragged into such discussion (because I know it will go more and more into details until it becomes an undecipherable argument), let me make this easy for you: let's forget about the different situations between Monaco and this. As you know, I consider the Monacogate a blatant act of cheating, too. And Schumi a cheater. So in that respect they are both the same situation.

I can't see the relevance. Unless this is an argument in favor of the brand new "you are all against McLaren/Hamilton and you think nobody ever did nothing wrong" which is, of course, nothing I think or have said.

But first, I'm not trying to lessen the situation. I've said (long before Spygate even) that McLaren cheat and lie and if you want to punish them for that then fine. I think you are being misleading in this thread though, or at least you are misguided. :P You're giving the impression that what Hamilton/McLaren did is somehow morally worse than what happens every day in F1. It was dumber than usual for F1, but not less ethical.

Was this the worse situation ever in F1 morally speaking? I wouldn't say so. The Monacogate, like I said is morally as reprobable. And other cases throughout F1 history too. But this happens everyday in F1? Nope. First time I heard about this situation and only one of the few times I've seen such blatant intent to cheat in all my years of watching F1.

Sorry, Graham. This doesn't happen everyday. And no, not all drivers/teams are consuetudinary cheaters.

Again, I can't see what you are aiming at. If they all were cheaters, what's the point? It can't be something like "see? everybody does the same!" because, as you said, you are not trying to lessen things for Hamilton :P What are you trying to make then? A case against all teams and drivers on the grid? Good luck with that!

You and I have both said we hate Hamilton/Alonso respectively (although of course you are just pretending) and we both talk about them cheating. But when I bring up Alonso's cheating, I never say he was the only one cheating, or that Lewis wouldn't have done the same in his shoes, or that he's somehow an unusually bad person for doing so. Alonso's idealistic fans might have got that impression but if you look back I'm sure you'll see I went to great lengths to say everyone in F1 cheats. Whereas I think you are being a little economical with the truth a la McLaren. :P

Again, you are the one being "economical with the truth" because I never, ever said that Hamilton is the only guy that ever cheated. If you get that impression then it is wrong. But I can't see the relevance of driver/team X doing Y to cheat in year Z. Other than diverting the attention it will probably not be comparable, would not offer anything that brings light to this case, and would not make Hamilton look less guilty or less stupid.

You're basically saying there is more scope to defend Schumacher than Hamilton because 'there is still a tiny bit of room for doubt' in the former case but not the latter? I can't find that very persuasive because we all know he did cheat! Even you estimate the likelihood of him cheating in that instance as being 99.999%. The stewards had enough evidence to punish him, and almost all observers agreed.

We all know he did cheat? I think Steve is not convinced about it. And Paul, I don't know if he was joking or being serious, but I think he also is not convinced about Monaco. How many people can you find that would deny that Hamilton didn't lie to the stewards?

Schumi was caught in a locked room with no exits whatsoever, with a smoking gun in his hand and a dead body with a bullet hole of the same caliber as Schumi's gun. He said he didn't do it, that the gun fired by itself.

Hamilton was recorded on tape while shooting the guy. Not only that, he confessed to some journos that he did it. When dragged into court he said he didn't do it. He was shown the tape. He still denies he did it.

I agree there's a tiny bit more doubt in Schumi's case but I don't see what that proves in the context of this discussion. Ferrari/Schumi's 'wrongdoing' was just as unethical, but much less dumb, than McLaren/Lewis's.

My case, precisely. That is why bringing all these cases of cheating only get people more confused. If the idea is to say "Schumi/Ferrari shouold have been penalized more heaviliy at the time" then count me in. I thought they should have been banned at the moment. And given Ferrari/Schumi historial of past shady manoeuvres, they should have been banned ages before the Monacogate. But, again, all comes to the stweards and the FIA and a combination of what they can do, and what they want to do. It's McLaren and Hamilton's stupidity which makes them a sitting duck in this situation. That is why they will probably get a much harsher penalty than Ferrari ever got.

Yes I agree. Lewis and McLaren were dumb, that's for sure.

And, in the end, that is the only logical conclussion :P

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http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/2588...FOR-FUTURE.html

"Hamilton fears for future; Lew in quit threat!"

"... Britain's F1 world champion is still furious after being ordered to lie to stewards following the season's opening Australian Grand Prix...."

"... Anthony is furious with Ron for allowing Lewis to be dragged into this...."

(not sure how reliable the source is, I'm not in the habit of reading British tabloid) ;)

I don't really get the guy. If he is so furious over it, why did he go along with it? He knew very well that he was lying to the stewards, was willing to do that because it might take him to the podium and got caught with it. To me, it appears that he is just angry because they got caught, and instead of willing to take the blame for his part, decides to just attack his team and pretends to be an innocent victim. I don't believe for a second that McLaren *ordered* Lewis to lie.

Grow up Lewis, take some responsibility of your actions and you might gather a few more fans. Your skills in the car certainly deserve admiration, but your off track behaviour is just repulsing.

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Again, I can't see what you are aiming at. If they all were cheaters, what's the point? It can't be something like "see? everybody does the same!" because, as you said, you are not trying to lessen things for Hamilton :P What are you trying to make then? A case against all teams and drivers on the grid? Good luck with that!

:lol:

I'm just aiming at having a more balanced and informed discussion. The impression I get, rightly or wrongly, is that only McLaren are being attacked for cheating, when imho everyone in F1 is at it. It's fine that we're discussing this particular instance of cheating, but if we feel so strongly about cheating in F1 then we ought to be saying more about the wider culture of cheating.

To use your example, it's as if we know for a fact that Hamilton has shot someone in his home-town of Stevenage and you are very concerned about it. But when I point out it's extremely likely the entire town's population are serial killers, you simply shrug your shoulders because there's a 0.001% chance I'm wrong. :P

And everyone does cheat all the time. Alonso cheated at McLaren. Lewis did. Pedro did. Kimi did. Ralf says he wouldn't have acted any differently. Schumacher, Michael obviously cheated whenever he could and then some. Senna cheated and a quick google search has turned up quotes from various others I didn't know about before.

When I was racing, it was easy to find out about every other team's weight distribution. That's what we did. It's what the whole game is and what Formula 1 is all about. [...] In a car, if you can steal information from everyone on the grid and make the best car, then I say well done!
Cheating in Formula One is the easiest thing in the world. And FIA (International Automobile Association) knows it.
We have got to stop assuming that major companies would not be involved in actions that were against the rules. That has produced a slightly different attitude and we are not prepared to take anything on trust anymore. When you get that you are getting to a stage where even the completely honest man has to cheat to be competitive. It happened in the world rally championship and we stopped it. There are beginning to be signs that it might be happening in Formula One and we are determined to stop it.

There is a culture of cheating in Formula One, like most sports. Personally I agree with Eddie Irvine on this, but if people are going to complain about particular incidents of cheating then it doesn't make sense to ignore all the other cheating that's going on.

http://www.virginmedia.com/sport/motorspor...e-irvine-15.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/motorspor...one/1199478.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-r...ing-720039.html

Grow up Lewis, take some responsibility of your actions and you might gather a few more fans. Your skills in the car certainly deserve admiration, but your off track behaviour is just repulsing.

I agree.

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