Quiet One

Dark Times Ahead For Mclaren

268 posts in this topic

[quote name='Max Mosley' post='288806' date='Apr 12 2009, 03:25 PM'] :lol:
I'm just aiming at having a more balanced and informed discussion. The impression I get, rightly or wrongly, is that only McLaren are being attacked for cheating, when imho everyone in F1 is at it. It's fine that we're discussing this particular instance of cheating, but if we feel so strongly about cheating in F1 then we ought to be saying more about the wider culture of cheating.[/quote]
:blink: :blink: Blink:
Are you ok? :lol: Are you aware why are we focused on McLaren and not in...let's say...Force India? Do you know who was caught with his pants down? (And no, don't bring Ben into this).
This thread is about the liegate. You want to discuss cheating in general? I would suggest making another thread. I can't see the relevance. And you have done anything to make it more relevant.
Just a hint: if you make a thread about cheating in F1, can I say you are too focused on cheating in F1 and say we ought to talk about cheating in general? Then bring examples of cheating husbands and/or wives? What about getting an even wider picture? Procrastination is a serious plague these days. You are right, why discuss poor Hamilton who did nothing out of the ordinary?

[quote name='Max Mosley' post='288806' date='Apr 12 2009, 03:25 PM']To use your example, it's as if we know for a fact that Hamilton has shot someone in his home-town of Stevenage and you are very concerned about it. But when I point out it's extremely likely the entire town's population are serial killers, you simply shrug your shoulders because there's a 0.001% chance I'm wrong. :P [/quote]
Again, I did not shrug my shoulders. I pointed very clearly that I believe Schumi is guilty on the Monacogate. I am just highlighting how dumber McLaren and Hammy acted, now that they were more evil than Ferrari/Schumi. If this is about any punishment Hamilton/Macca might get, then I think they deserve a ban. And that Schumi deserved a ban back then. I just point that by being dumb, the FIA has even more excuses at their disposal to be harsher upon Lewis/Macca than they were upon Schumi/Ferrari. It's not something I like. It is just mentioning a fact. Whether you and me like it or not, it's not the same having Schumi's "I am laughing at all of you" faces and some telemetry subject to intepretation than having a guy listening to his own voice saying "I did it" and replying "No, I did not do that" on the face of the stewards.
To take my previous example, Schumi might or might not get the death penalty (in Texas :lol: ) but Lewis would surely be fried. Not because I hate him, but because evidence is against him. I could love him dearly, it would make no difference. I could think that both are equally guilty, or that Schumi was even worse...it would make no difference.


[quote name='Max Mosley' post='288806' date='Apr 12 2009, 03:25 PM']And everyone [i]does [/i]cheat all the time. Alonso cheated at McLaren. Lewis did. Pedro did. Kimi did. Ralf says he wouldn't have acted any differently. Schumacher, Michael obviously cheated whenever he could and then some. Senna cheated and a quick google search has turned up quotes from various others I didn't know about before.[/quote]
Two paths:

1 path: I agree with you. Everybody cheats all the time. Or not, if you mean something else. If you mean that only those you named cheated, I agree with you. Basically, I agree with you on whatever combination of cheating you can come up with. So...? What's your proposal? Watching F1 is a waste of time? We should just watch drivers and teams cheating any way they like? Hire thugs? Rocket engines? Dropping nails? Or even simpler...yelling "I'm the best!" and that's it? It makes no difference, you know? Hey, everybody kills be it persons, or animals or insects or plants...So what's the big deal? I should go and shoot my neighbor, he does this annoying sound with his nose I can even hear him at night (this is actually true)

2 path: that is a reason why FIA should improve, stewards should improve, and penalties against cheaters should be harsher, regardless of what Bernie thinks will bring him more income. Now that is a better path. I agree with you if this is your line of thinking. And they could as well start with Hamilton and Macca :P

[quote name='Max Mosley' post='288806' date='Apr 12 2009, 03:25 PM']There is a culture of cheating in Formula One, like most sports. Personally I agree with Eddie Irvine on this, but if people are going to complain about particular incidents of cheating then it doesn't make sense to ignore all the other cheating that's going on.

[url="http://www.virginmedia.com/sport/motorsport/formula1/features/eddie-irvine-15.php"]http://www.virginmedia.com/sport/motorspor...e-irvine-15.php[/url]
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/motorsport/formula_one/1199478.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/motorspor...one/1199478.stm[/url]
[url="http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/f1-team-accused-of-cheating-720039.html"]http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-r...ing-720039.html[/url][/quote]
These prove that EJ is an idiot, something we all knew all along. He thinks cheating is ok? He is not only an idiot, he is disgusting and hardly a sportmen. Fangio was considered a gentleman. Go google what Stirling Moss thought of him. Roger Federer is a cheater, too? How many people will have to share Hamilton's burden to keep the Lewis fans at peace? Am I a cheater at my job, too? In the end, it is insulting. I do not believe for one minute that you believe that. EJ is an idiot, you are not.

Frentzen and Mosley are actually asking for tighter controls against cheating. So they add nothing to all this.

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Prove it.
Ya....prove it... :lol:

You Charlie, and you Bernie should prove it. :)

Actually, I don't know what do you want me to prove.

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You Charlie, and you Bernie should prove it. :)

Actually, I don't know what do you want me to prove.

I want you to prove that Michael parked it at Rascasse. Michael came to see me after qualifying to give me a diamond encrusted bracelet, which he said he had meant to give me a few weeks before. Over the ten course lunch he bought me, he assured me that it was a genuine error. I'm glad I had the meeting as it gave me the opportunity, over three bottles of Chateau neuf du pay doff, to reach the conclusion that he was innocent.

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I want you to prove that Michael parked it at Rascasse. Michael came to see me after qualifying to give me a diamond encrusted bracelet, which he said he had meant to give me a few weeks before. Over the ten course lunch he bought me, he assured me that it was a genuine error. I'm glad I had the meeting as it gave me the opportunity, over three bottles of Chateau neuf du pay doff, to reach the conclusion that he was innocent.

It's nice to know you can't be brought Charlie. Ahh I miss my Schumi, we had some good times over the years!!!

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It's nice to know you can't be brought Charlie. Ahh I miss my Schumi, we had some good times over the years!!!

No wonder he looked so sore during the weekends!

:eekout:

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:blink::blink: Blink:

Are you ok? :lol: Are you aware why are we focused on McLaren and not in...let's say...Force India? Do you know who was caught with his pants down? (And no, don't bring Ben into this).

This thread is about the liegate. You want to discuss cheating in general? I would suggest making another thread. I can't see the relevance. And you have done anything to make it more relevant.

Just a hint: if you make a thread about cheating in F1, can I say you are too focused on cheating in F1 and say we ought to talk about cheating in general? Then bring examples of cheating husbands and/or wives? What about getting an even wider picture? Procrastination is a serious plague these days. You are right, why discuss poor Hamilton who did nothing out of the ordinary?

Again, I did not shrug my shoulders. I pointed very clearly that I believe Schumi is guilty on the Monacogate. I am just highlighting how dumber McLaren and Hammy acted, now that they were more evil than Ferrari/Schumi. If this is about any punishment Hamilton/Macca might get, then I think they deserve a ban. And that Schumi deserved a ban back then. I just point that by being dumb, the FIA has even more excuses at their disposal to be harsher upon Lewis/Macca than they were upon Schumi/Ferrari. It's not something I like. It is just mentioning a fact. Whether you and me like it or not, it's not the same having Schumi's "I am laughing at all of you" faces and some telemetry subject to intepretation than having a guy listening to his own voice saying "I did it" and replying "No, I did not do that" on the face of the stewards.

To take my previous example, Schumi might or might not get the death penalty (in Texas :lol: ) but Lewis would surely be fried. Not because I hate him, but because evidence is against him. I could love him dearly, it would make no difference. I could think that both are equally guilty, or that Schumi was even worse...it would make no difference.

Two paths:

1 path: I agree with you. Everybody cheats all the time. Or not, if you mean something else. If you mean that only those you named cheated, I agree with you. Basically, I agree with you on whatever combination of cheating you can come up with. So...? What's your proposal? Watching F1 is a waste of time? We should just watch drivers and teams cheating any way they like? Hire thugs? Rocket engines? Dropping nails? Or even simpler...yelling "I'm the best!" and that's it? It makes no difference, you know? Hey, everybody kills be it persons, or animals or insects or plants...So what's the big deal? I should go and shoot my neighbor, he does this annoying sound with his nose I can even hear him at night (this is actually true)

2 path: that is a reason why FIA should improve, stewards should improve, and penalties against cheaters should be harsher, regardless of what Bernie thinks will bring him more income. Now that is a better path. I agree with you if this is your line of thinking. And they could as well start with Hamilton and Macca :P

These prove that EJ is an idiot, something we all knew all along. He thinks cheating is ok? He is not only an idiot, he is disgusting and hardly a sportmen. Fangio was considered a gentleman. Go google what Stirling Moss thought of him. Roger Federer is a cheater, too? How many people will have to share Hamilton's burden to keep the Lewis fans at peace? Am I a cheater at my job, too? In the end, it is insulting. I do not believe for one minute that you believe that. EJ is an idiot, you are not.

Frentzen and Mosley are actually asking for tighter controls against cheating. So they add nothing to all this.

:lol:

I think you're just winding me up now! Is it so hard to see that if we're going to discuss one isolated example of cheating with such vigour, maybe we ought to address the epidemic of cheating in the sport as well? Since Melbourne, there will have been dozens of separate acts of cheating in F1. If we are so opposed to cheating why do we not discuss that?

The Irvine, Frentzen and Mosley quotes are interesting because they show how ubiquitous cheating is in F1. It happens every day just about, whether back in the factory or on the race track. And the FIA knows it.

I am always surprised how naive people are in general. Here, we have a scandal in politics where our Prime Minister's office has been sending emails about 'smearing' his opponents and everyone is aghast. But honestly, is it news to anyone that politicians smear their rivals? It's as if people forget that politicians lie until the newspaper reminds them to be angry about it, like a cue prompts them to laugh or clap on a TV show set.

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I want you to prove that Michael parked it at Rascasse. Michael came to see me after qualifying to give me a diamond encrusted bracelet, which he said he had meant to give me a few weeks before. Over the ten course lunch he bought me, he assured me that it was a genuine error. I'm glad I had the meeting as it gave me the opportunity, over three bottles of Chateau neuf du pay doff, to reach the conclusion that he was innocent.

He was probaly innocent of parking it at Rascasse, he said it was a genuine error and nobody will ever be able to prove it wasn't. But even a genuine error like that deserves a penalty, those type of errors are not allowed for F1 World Champions.

Actually, maybe someone might be able to prove whether it was a genuine error or not.

111polygraph_testca1960.jpg

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Damn you all are forgetting the salient point, well except for my commie friend that it's not if everyone looks for a competitive advantage it's that when presented evedence of the lie they continued it. You can't fix stupid as my mother used to say.

I don't have dog in this fight as the saying goes, I'm not a Hammfisted fan or a Toyota fan. McLaren etal brought this all on themselves for a mere point!! How dumb are they?

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Damn you all are forgetting the salient point, well except for my commie friend that it's not if everyone looks for a competitive advantage it's that when presented evedence of the lie they continued it. You can't fix stupid as my mother used to say.

I don't have dog in this fight as the saying goes, I'm not a Hammfisted fan or a Toyota fan. McLaren etal brought this all on themselves for a mere point!! How dumb are they?

Why, thank you, my americansky kammerad

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Why, thank you, my americansky kammerad

Shall we meet for some vodka and borscht?

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:lol:

I think you're just winding me up now! Is it so hard to see that if we're going to discuss one isolated example of cheating with such vigour, maybe we ought to address the epidemic of cheating in the sport as well? Since Melbourne, there will have been dozens of separate acts of cheating in F1. If we are so opposed to cheating why do we not discuss that?

Geez...if that is what you meant why didn't you said that from the start? :P

Sure, what stops you? Go ahead, create a thread called: "Is F1 a cheater's cove?" or something similar! I am sure we can all have our opinions there without creating a smoke curtain for this very specific cheating act.

The Irvine, Frentzen and Mosley quotes are interesting because they show how ubiquitous cheating is in F1. It happens every day just about, whether back in the factory or on the race track. And the FIA knows it.

Maybe. I find it hard to believe the cheating actions are as stupid or obvious as this one. None of those quotes mentioned a single specific case that we do not know of. EJ talks about the emails from Nando and De La Rosa, nothing new there (though his comments about Nando are funny, I wonder if he will apply the same rigour to Hammy now? I don't think so because those comments actually contradicted his previous pseudo cynical comments about cheating). Frentzen talks generalities about programs that can erase themselves. Mosley talks about some alleged cheating...I don't even know which case he is talking about.

Not to mention that you got 3 quotes in 10 years of sport. Quite low for a sport where cheating is a way of life.

I am always surprised how naive people are in general. Here, we have a scandal in politics where our Prime Minister's office has been sending emails about 'smearing' his opponents and everyone is aghast. But honestly, is it news to anyone that politicians smear their rivals? It's as if people forget that politicians lie until the newspaper reminds them to be angry about it, like a cue prompts them to laugh or clap on a TV show set.

Curious argument. So people should have assumed since the beginning that Hamilton was a dumb liar. Really...waiting until the FIA (the FIA! those incompetents!) unmasked him...what a waste of time...people is so naive! Thankfuly you were smarter. You knew it all along ;)

If I was Hamilton, I would definitely not hire you as my defendant :P

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Shall we meet for some vodka and borscht?

Sorry but I will have to decline. Government surveilling e-mails? State interferring on private companies?

I'd rather stay in Moscow, the Free World. :P

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Sorry but I will have to decline. Government surveilling e-mails? State interferring on private companies?

I'd rather stay in Moscow, the Free World. :P

Well you don't have to be snob about it. I was thinking oh I don't know, something like Cuba.

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Well you don't have to be snob about it. I was thinking oh I don't know, something like Cuba.

:lol:

Cuba is now almost a friend of the US...geez, times have changed for us haven't it? Things were easier to understand during Cold War, my "Old Guts and Blood" friend. :P

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Zdravstvuj! (Hello, for Amerikanskis!) Zey call me Inspektor Robeyevich Smedlii. I am FIA polit-burro in St Petersburg. Ve commies believe in fairness for everyone in sport and it is my jobski to detect and punish vinners. Now glorious Lenin and ze gulags have gone, ve make you sunbathe in Siberia if you vin. FIA assign me to Formula Odin, where pointskis shall be taken from each according to his ability, and given to each according to his need.

Geez...if that is what you meant why didn't you said that from the start? :P

Sure, what stops you? Go ahead, create a thread called: "Is F1 a cheater's cove?" or something similar! I am sure we can all have our opinions there without creating a smoke curtain for this very specific cheating act.

But zey are ALL tcheating! And you say NOTHING! Your name has been written in ze little black book of people ve have seen allowing people to tcheat and sometimes even VIN without informing ze KGB. You vill need ze Speedoes for Siberia.

Maybe. I find it hard to believe the cheating actions are as stupid or obvious as this one. None of those quotes mentioned a single specific case that we do not know of. EJ talks about the emails from Nando and De La Rosa, nothing new there (though his comments about Nando are funny, I wonder if he will apply the same rigour to Hammy now? I don't think so because those comments actually contradicted his previous pseudo cynical comments about cheating). Frentzen talks generalities about programs that can erase themselves. Mosley talks about some alleged cheating...I don't even know which case he is talking about.

Not to mention that you got 3 quotes in 10 years of sport. Quite low for a sport where cheating is a way of life.

Da. But ve have vays of knowings. Comrade Eddievich tells us that everyone in Formula Odin cheats, and some even vin. Ve commies don't like tcheating and ve hate vinning. Sometimes ve have noticed that tcheaters do not alvays tell ze truth when ve ask them. But here at KGB ve know how to know what zey know zey don't want us to know zey know.

Curious argument. So people should have assumed since the beginning that Hamilton was a dumb liar. Really...waiting until the FIA (the FIA! those incompetents!) unmasked him...what a waste of time...people is so naive! Thankfuly you were smarter. You knew it all along ;)

If I was Hamilton, I would definitely not hire you as my defendant :P

Hamilton vill join you in Siberia. Here at KGB ve know he cheats. Ve have alvays said so. Vhy you think ve defend tcheater?

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He was probaly innocent of parking it at Rascasse, he said it was a genuine error and nobody will ever be able to prove it wasn't. But even a genuine error like that deserves a penalty, those type of errors are not allowed for F1 World Champions.

Actually, maybe someone might be able to prove whether it was a genuine error or not.

Er, no it was a big fat cheat. Note the way he parked carefully at an angle without bumping the car at all. Still I like Schui for all his naughty ways, made him a loveable rogue.

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Er, no it was a big fat cheat. Note the way he parked carefully at an angle without bumping the car at all. Still I like Schui for all his naughty ways, made him a loveable rogue.

*Hic*, look, you fackin illegal bit o' carbon fibre sh!te you, *hic, burp* I fackin told ya, Mikey said it was a fackin jenyoo....*hic*...jenyoooin...*hic, burp, puke...* ah, sh!te......yeah, a genuine mistake. Ah, bollocks, I've dropped me bracelet down the fackin drain now. This never 'appened before....when I used to stay sober. Fackin Schuey and that fackin wine........

....Where's the kebab shop? BERNIE! GOT ANY FACKIN' CHANGE?!.. you messy haired cant..........

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Zdravstvuj! (Hello, for Amerikanskis!) Zey call me Inspektor Robeyevich Smedlii. I am FIA polit-burro in St Petersburg. Ve commies believe in fairness for everyone in sport and it is my jobski to detect and punish vinners. Now glorious Lenin and ze gulags have gone, ve make you sunbathe in Siberia if you vin. FIA assign me to Formula Odin, where pointskis shall be taken from each according to his ability, and given to each according to his need.

But zey are ALL tcheating! And you say NOTHING! Your name has been written in ze little black book of people ve have seen allowing people to tcheat and sometimes even VIN without informing ze KGB. You vill need ze Speedoes for Siberia.

Da. But ve have vays of knowings. Comrade Eddievich tells us that everyone in Formula Odin cheats, and some even vin. Ve commies don't like tcheating and ve hate vinning. Sometimes ve have noticed that tcheaters do not alvays tell ze truth when ve ask them. But here at KGB ve know how to know what zey know zey don't want us to know zey know.

Hamilton vill join you in Siberia. Here at KGB ve know he cheats. Ve have alvays said so. Vhy you think ve defend tcheater?

:laughing:

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Zdravstvuj! (Hello, for Amerikanskis!) Zey call me Inspektor Robeyevich Smedlii. I am FIA polit-burro in St Petersburg. Ve commies believe in fairness for everyone in sport and it is my jobski to detect and punish vinners. Now glorious Lenin and ze gulags have gone, ve make you sunbathe in Siberia if you vin. FIA assign me to Formula Odin, where pointskis shall be taken from each according to his ability, and given to each according to his need.

But zey are ALL tcheating! And you say NOTHING! Your name has been written in ze little black book of people ve have seen allowing people to tcheat and sometimes even VIN without informing ze KGB. You vill need ze Speedoes for Siberia.

Da. But ve have vays of knowings. Comrade Eddievich tells us that everyone in Formula Odin cheats, and some even vin. Ve commies don't like tcheating and ve hate vinning. Sometimes ve have noticed that tcheaters do not alvays tell ze truth when ve ask them. But here at KGB ve know how to know what zey know zey don't want us to know zey know.

Hamilton vill join you in Siberia. Here at KGB ve know he cheats. Ve have alvays said so. Vhy you think ve defend tcheater?

:lol: gold

Hey Rob will you ask your buddies Raul and Hugo to join us?

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Good article. I'm inclined to agree.

I think the stewards have to take something away from how this is handled though. I agree that the BLAME for the incident has to land squarely on Lewis and McLaren- however it is still the case that had the drivers been aware of the safety car rules and had the stewards been able to make a quick decision on whether the pass was legal, the situation would not have occurred. Ditto if they had listened to the radio traffic available immediately.

Again, I reiterate that I am in no way suggesting that the FIA are to blame for McLaren's choice to lie, but let's face it this is entertainment. I would argue that it's more important that we try to ensure that we never get to the stage where we have to test the moral fiber of an F1 team (especially since, as Muzza rightly points out, they're all at it if we're honest). The FIA need to be looking at the situation in the media and trying to improve their processes a bit to avoid the same thing happening again. How many billions of dollars are spent in F1? And we have to rely on a vague set of rules and Charlie making the final call? Surely we can do better than this.

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