Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4 Report post Posted May 13, 2009 OK not looking for any smart Alec answers, but seriously a question for the technical boffins.... We all know the revolution that Mr Dunlop created when he invented pneumatic tyres. Great, fill them with air, extra cushioning, etc. One small problem, they puncture. This got me thinking. Given the modern development of polymers, both carbon and silicon based and clever foams, etc, why oh why have tyre manufacturers not come up with a better solution? Are air/nitrogen/rare gases really the best way of delivering the bounce that tyres need? Couldn't someone come up with a clever, solid, lightweight but flexible foam using advanced polymers that give the same bounce but don't puncture? My mate who knows about such things believes that heat distribution would be a problem in such a tyre. And of course I can see why tyre manufacturers would not want to rush into it as they rely on punctures for business.... And my final question - how many condoms can you get out of a tyre? 365 in a Goodyear Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted May 13, 2009 No answer for your final question, but here http://www.michelin.com/corporate/actualit...4&actu=true http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/attac...n_tweel_010.jpg http://www.businessshrink.biz/psychologyof...s/tweelflex.jpg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted May 13, 2009 More reason why tyre manufacturers havn't yet built or developed something that is different on a wider scale may be because of the lack of support they get from car manufacturers who may not be willing to develop something that is completely new, because the concept has hidden risks and cost of development, for example, they don't know what kind of changes they have to make on the cars especially suspensions etc etc, you know. Lotsa money and time invoved in the process. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikathegreat2 2 Report post Posted May 13, 2009 Nissan GT-R's tyres are filled with nitrogen cos the Nissan boffins reckon that normal air is too unstable! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DOF_power 0 Report post Posted May 13, 2009 > ^ F1 now uses some special mixtures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikathegreat2 2 Report post Posted May 13, 2009 >^ F1 now uses some special mixtures. N20? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kuskor 0 Report post Posted May 13, 2009 We've had that matter up for discussion during Stephneygate. Ferrari had found a hydrofluorocarbon based gas that had good heat dissipation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted May 13, 2009 OK not looking for any smart Alec answers, but seriously a question for the technical boffins....We all know the revolution that Mr Dunlop created when he invented pneumatic tyres. Great, fill them with air, extra cushioning, etc. One small problem, they puncture. This got me thinking. Given the modern development of polymers, both carbon and silicon based and clever foams, etc, why oh why have tyre manufacturers not come up with a better solution? Are air/nitrogen/rare gases really the best way of delivering the bounce that tyres need? Couldn't someone come up with a clever, solid, lightweight but flexible foam using advanced polymers that give the same bounce but don't puncture? My mate who knows about such things believes that heat distribution would be a problem in such a tyre. And of course I can see why tyre manufacturers would not want to rush into it as they rely on punctures for business.... And my final question - how many condoms can you get out of a tyre? 365 in a Goodyear Very funny. Everyone else makes a good point that filling them up with different gases with better thermodynamics has been tried, even if that doesn't prevent punctures. I guess the reason solid tyres that can't puncture haven't taken off is that they would be much more expensive. Air and a small amount of old fashioned rubber is much cheaper than a large solid volume of an advanced bespoke polymer. And the polymer probably would have to be pretty advanced because tyres do their job very well: you need the right kind of bounce, the right flexibility to increase the contact patch with the road without too much deformation (which wastes energy - easily deformable air is great in this regard!), the right level of friction with different road surfaces in all conditions, the right durability under all kinds of stresses, the right weight (air is pretty light!) etc. Haven't people come up with ways to make regular tyres more resistant to punctures? I think that would be the more practical route. Fun question! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted May 13, 2009 Nissan GT-R's tyres are filled with nitrogen cos the Nissan boffins reckon that normal air is too unstable! My dad's van and My Daewoo has them now! Really... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 My dad's van and My Daewoo has them now! Really... Well my tyres have got Nitrogen in them too - its called air lol Seriously, the Tweel is an interesting idea - wonder what the ride quality is like. But ooh it is very, very ugly - even its mother couldn't love that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F1 FANatic 1 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 One word: WEIGHT Air and rare gasses are still thousands of times lighter than the lightest foam or gel which would just add unsprung weight to any car, something you want to avoid at all costs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 Could they use a gas that is lighter than air to decrease the car's weight and thus allow for a bit of extra technology? Aparently these are contenders... Neon Hydrogen fluoride Carbon monoxide Ammonia Nitrogen Hydrogen cyanide Methane Ethylene Acetylene Methllithium Diborane Helium Hydrogen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 What is this, extreme F1??? subtitled: When F1 goes bad..... Neon Ooh yeah then with KERS electricity you would get pretty colours... Hydrogen fluoride Poisonous, eats glass, skin, bone... Carbon monoxide Poisonous Ammonia Poisonous, smelly (but good for cleaning windows) Nitrogen already in air, so don't see how it could be lighter???? Hydrogen cyanide Er, OK... I'm not even going to bother commenting on that one.... Methane BANG! Ethylene BAANNGG! Acetylene KERBOOM!!! And melty, melty, melty of anything metal in the vicinity Methllithium Reacts violently with water, why not go the whole hog and fill them with liquid sodium???!!! Wet races would be fun Diborane Smells and spontaneously combusts - hmm good one!!! NOT Helium Imagine Flavio speaking with a squeaky voice??!!! Hydrogen BANG (again) - remember the Hindenburg? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 Could they use a gas that is lighter than air to decrease the car's weight and thus allow for a bit of extra technology? Mythbusters did a TV slot on this for American footballs and filled them with Helium and measured whether they flew further. There was, apparently a very small, very small increase in distance, but the conclusion was I recall that it was not worth the bother and there were better ways to increase performance. The weight differece of the gases is negligable especially at the pressures they use in F1 tyres. I would imagine that the main benefit for filling them with other gases would be to improve thermal performance or to prevent corrosion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 What is this, extreme F1??? subtitled: When F1 goes bad.....Neon Ooh yeah then with KERS electricity you would get pretty colours... Hydrogen fluoride Poisonous, eats glass, skin, bone... Carbon monoxide Poisonous Ammonia Poisonous, smelly (but good for cleaning windows) Nitrogen already in air, so don't see how it could be lighter???? Hydrogen cyanide Er, OK... I'm not even going to bother commenting on that one.... Methane BANG! Ethylene BAANNGG! Acetylene KERBOOM!!! And melty, melty, melty of anything metal in the vicinity Methllithium Reacts violently with water, why not go the whole hog and fill them with liquid sodium???!!! Wet races would be fun Diborane Smells and spontaneously combusts - hmm good one!!! NOT Helium Imagine Flavio speaking with a squeaky voice??!!! Hydrogen BANG (again) - remember the Hindenburg? on further inspection then, it seems one of the bangy gases would be good. they're always complaining about getting heat into their tyres aren't they. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HandyNZL 1 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 One word: WEIGHTAir and rare gasses are still thousands of times lighter than the lightest foam or gel which would just add unsprung weight to any car, something you want to avoid at all costs Rats...you beat me to it...thats what I was going to write... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 Well my tyres have got Nitrogen in them too - its called air lolSeriously, the Tweel is an interesting idea - wonder what the ride quality is like. But ooh it is very, very ugly - even its mother couldn't love that! seriously, we have nitrogen filled, with a six month guarantee (if you can manage to drive it without getting it punctured).....In india you are prone to get the car punctured very soo....almost once a week....I filled my car's tyres with Nitro because I won't be using it for a long time, and the pressure doesn't change that much...so when I return back to India, all I have to do is to connect the batteries and drive the car slowly to the nearest gas station on a garage and service it...or else I will have to manually pump air (with foot)...which will take time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikathegreat2 2 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 My dad's van and My Daewoo has them now! Really...You must feel like a Chevrolet Lacetti touring car thru the corners! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 You must feel like a Chevrolet Lacetti touring car thru the corners! .....I didn't feel any difference at all... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikathegreat2 2 Report post Posted May 14, 2009 .....I didn't feel any difference at all... Nitrogen tyres=b0llock! I guess it's down to the suspension & aerodynamics of the car itself! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted May 15, 2009 We should investigate the possibilities with forum gas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Argento Reloaded 1 Report post Posted May 16, 2009 take a look to the Michelin Airless concept. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted May 16, 2009 take a look to the Michelin Airless concept. I think that's Immac. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
