Holy Crap, Latest News: Teams To Launch Breakaway Series

[F1 FANatic 1]

Sorry folks don't gt too excited, its all sabre-rattling.

FOTA are not going to create a new series. Financially does not stack up. Who's going to underwrite the setup costs? Where are the tickets for the new venues? Where are the advertisers? Sponsors? TV stations? Stewards? Circuits? Rules? Just not there. It is a bargaining ploy.

If anybody thinks they can pull this together before March 2010 they are in cloud-cuckoo land. Really. I have had experience on a limited scale of commercial contracts/operations and can tell you now it is not going to happen in 2010. 2011, maybe but not next year. They would have had to have started this a year ago if they had wanted to do so and F1 being leakier than a sieve would have heard about this.

And as for Max's threatened legal action - all a crock. Best they could do is try to sue Ferrari, Red Bull/STR but Ferrari can probably get out on grounds that FIA have breached contract. Indeed Max's statement on public record that they can set up their own series would be used as evidence against him.

Bernie is key in this; he has too much to lose and will be pulling strings. World Motor Sport Council will intervene and backtrack. Max will fall on his sword. F1 will be redefined under FIA with new governance.

In fact I would not be surprised if this was a plot to oust Max anyway; last attempt failed. Think they will be more successful this time.

I think with a lot of elbow grease a series next year could very well but up and running, if you plan it right.

Where are the most tracks that can hold a GP? Europe. So if you start on june 19th next year and have your first race and then have a race every other week till October 30th you have a 9 race calendar allowing for two Sundays off for travel to and from the Americas. And if the teams are willing to do a couple of races back to back that number could be 11 or 12. I would say 11 races is not so bad

Lets just think of 9 tacks off the top of our heads that can hold a race.

Silverstone: not like its going to be used next year by Max anyway.

Spa

Hockenheim/Nurburg

Magny-Cours

Monza

Monaco

Interlagos

Montreal

Indy

Most of those tracks are cash strapped anyway, you tell them that they can host a FOTA race with 8 F1 teams for flat $5 million for everybody instead of an average of $23.5 million and they get to keep 50% of the profits and the other 50% are distributed evenly among the teams I bet you they would all be lining up.

That would allow promoters to cut ticket prices in half and they'd still make loads of money off of a race

The Facilities are there at every one of those tracks plus if races are so much cheaper to hold then governments would be far more willing to spend on infrastructure improvements around the track if they see they can make money off of increased tourism.

As for rules? Us this years F1 rules with a few tweaks to allow for continuity and have those rules set up for 2010 ans 2011 and that gives the teams time to write their own rules.

[Jean Todt 4]

I think with a lot of elbow grease a series next year could very well but up and running, if you plan it right.

Where are the most tracks that can hold a GP? Europe. So if you start on june 19th next year and have your first race and then have a race every other week till October 30th you have a 9 race calendar allowing for two Sundays off for travel to and from the Americas. And if the teams are willing to do a couple of races back to back that number could be 11 or 12. I would say 11 races is not so bad

Lets just think of 9 tacks off the top of our heads that can hold a race.

Silverstone: not like its going to be used next year by Max anyway.

Spa

Hockenheim/Nurburg

Magny-Cours

Monza

Monaco

Interlagos

Montreal

Indy

Most of those tracks are cash strapped anyway, you tell them that they can host a FOTA race with 8 F1 teams for flat $5 million for everybody instead of an average of $23.5 million and they get to keep 50% of the profits and the other 50% are distributed evenly among the teams I bet you they would all be lining up.

That would allow promoters to cut ticket prices in half and they'd still make loads of money off of a race

The Facilities are there at every one of those tracks plus if races are so much cheaper to hold then governments would be far more willing to spend on infrastructure improvements around the track if they see they can make money off of increased tourism.

As for rules? Us this years F1 rules with a few tweaks to allow for continuity and have those rules set up for 2010 ans 2011 and that gives the teams time to write their own rules.

I agree.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Raikkonen blames 'egos' for F1 fallout

By Pablo Elizalde Friday, June 19th 2009, 15:15 GMT

Former world champion Kimi Raikkonen says the battle between the FIA and FOTA is not about Formula 1 anymore, but rather a fight between the two bodies' egos.

The Formula One Teams' Association announced yesterday that it will launch its own championship after failing to reach a compromise deal with the FIA over the rules for the 2010 season.

The governing body has responded by saying it will sue FOTA.

Ferrari driver Raikkonen admitted it was sad to see the current situation, and he reckons both parties have lost sight of what the fight is really about.

"Of course it's sad to see," Raikkonen told reporters. "This is nothing to do with sport anymore, it's more politics and more about egos fighting against each other.

"It's not really about Formula 1 anymore. It's about who is going to win and who is going to lose. It's sad but that's how it is, and we'll just see what happens.

"I don't know what will happen or where we are going to race, but let's finish this year then we will know more about next year."

The Finn insisted he is ready to follow Ferrari out of Formula 1 if it means racing against the best drivers and teams.

"For sure we want to have the best drivers and the best teams in the same championship. That's really what Formula 1 is all about. For sure next year we are going to race somewhere, but I don't know where."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No Kimi, is not an ego

[Jean Todt 4]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No Kimi, is not an ego

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Some reasons it ain't gonna happen:

1) Do you honestly think Bernie is going to let his business empire crumble? He has made F1 and stands to lose too much. Easier for him to stick the knife into Max and stick with the teams, who are his cash-cow. Even if they did go it alone Bernie could make life very difficult or very easy for them to do this - he has the infrastructure and the contacts.

2) Money - all very well going on about lowering circuit fees - but remember FOM pay the teams a chunk of money; this money comes from sale of TV rights, advertising, sponsorship, branding/merchandising, circuit fees.

TV ad revenues have declined 16% in the last year, part of an ongoing 3 year trend. It has got so bad in UK that of its two biggest ad-funded channels, one is now talking to Sky about moving some of its digital channels into their pay-TV platform (and getting revenue-share) and has cancelled many of its new productions; the other recently was rumoured to be in with a share of licence fee money (e.g. a share of the "tax" UK residents pay on TV ownership). The channels don't have the money to back a series, especially where there are unknowns. F1 as a brand is known, predictable, etc.

TV companies will only pay rights if they can cover off their liability with advertising/sponsorship, charging a premium for association with F1. i) FIA will enforce its rights to the F1 brand limiting what it can be called ii) most advertisers/sponsors will be very wary of making long-term commitments, especially if there is a threat of FIA suing FOTA/Ferrari and will probably only commit to low fees or race-by-race fees until the legal action is over. Big money will be tied up in contracts which FIA own and will enforce. Plus it is unlikely they could do a full season so revenue is going to be hacked anyway.

This will not generate enough money to cover the running costs of the organisation especially initially, so FOTA will have to subsidise it. Think about this - not only are they getting less money, they are going to have to pay out more.

Circuits - OK so lower their fees, cheaper tickets, but underlying declining ticket revenues and loss of fans from this whole sorry affair will impact upon this; plus would you want to buy tickets for a race a year away for a new series that may be under legal threat?

Merchandising will take an impact as FIA will protect the F1 moniker, meaning existing merchandising is junk - lost revenues and increased costs.

Sponsors will want to join in like a doctor wants to French-kiss a Swine 'Flu' victim - they will be nervous of long-term commitment for the same reasons above in an already tough market with the threat of legal action (and related halo effects).

Costs - will go up. Someone has to put a management team in place to promote the races, project manage them, check them out for safety, organise the logistics, arrange the deals, handle the finances, deal with the IT. Someone has to bank-roll this. Where does this money come from????

And then you have the teams, who are already struggling to find sponsorship (given the impact of the row) in a declining advertising market, with less income coming in from established sources, under pressure from their corporate owners who are themselves struggling. Do you honestly think they are going to want to cough up millions of cash to subsidise tracks, pay for management, etc?

Hell no.

The only way this will happen in the short-medium term is if Bernie is there. He has already demonstrated he can and will switch allegiences and is clever enough to know that he should back the winning side (which FIA is not). He simply has to bung a bit more cash at them and behind the scenes, ensure that this time , Max does fall under the wheels of the bus....

You know it makes sense....

[Jean Todt 4]

Some reasons it ain't gonna happen:

1) Do you honestly think Bernie is going to let his business empire crumble? He has made F1 and stands to lose too much. Easier for him to stick the knife into Max and stick with the teams, who are his cash-cow. Even if they did go it alone Bernie could make life very difficult or very easy for them to do this - he has the infrastructure and the contacts.

2) Money - all very well going on about lowering circuit fees - but remember FOM pay the teams a chunk of money; this money comes from sale of TV rights, advertising, sponsorship, branding/merchandising, circuit fees.

TV ad revenues have declined 16% in the last year, part of an ongoing 3 year trend. It has got so bad in UK that of its two biggest ad-funded channels, one is now talking to Sky about moving some of its digital channels into their pay-TV platform (and getting revenue-share) and has cancelled many of its new productions; the other recently was rumoured to be in with a share of licence fee money (e.g. a share of the "tax" UK residents pay on TV ownership). The channels don't have the money to back a series, especially where there are unknowns. F1 as a brand is known, predictable, etc.

TV companies will only pay rights if they can cover off their liability with advertising/sponsorship, charging a premium for association with F1. i) FIA will enforce its rights to the F1 brand limiting what it can be called ii) most advertisers/sponsors will be very wary of making long-term commitments, especially if there is a threat of FIA suing FOTA/Ferrari and will probably only commit to low fees or race-by-race fees until the legal action is over. Big money will be tied up in contracts which FIA own and will enforce. Plus it is unlikely they could do a full season so revenue is going to be hacked anyway.

This will not generate enough money to cover the running costs of the organisation especially initially, so FOTA will have to subsidise it. Think about this - not only are they getting less money, they are going to have to pay out more.

Circuits - OK so lower their fees, cheaper tickets, but underlying declining ticket revenues and loss of fans from this whole sorry affair will impact upon this; plus would you want to buy tickets for a race a year away for a new series that may be under legal threat?

Merchandising will take an impact as FIA will protect the F1 moniker, meaning existing merchandising is junk - lost revenues and increased costs.

Sponsors will want to join in like a doctor wants to French-kiss a Swine 'Flu' victim - they will be nervous of long-term commitment for the same reasons above in an already tough market with the threat of legal action (and related halo effects).

Costs - will go up. Someone has to put a management team in place to promote the races, project manage them, check them out for safety, organise the logistics, arrange the deals, handle the finances, deal with the IT. Someone has to bank-roll this. Where does this money come from????

And then you have the teams, who are already struggling to find sponsorship (given the impact of the row) in a declining advertising market, with less income coming in from established sources, under pressure from their corporate owners who are themselves struggling. Do you honestly think they are going to want to cough up millions of cash to subsidise tracks, pay for management, etc?

Hell no.

The only way this will happen in the short-medium term is if Bernie is there. He has already demonstrated he can and will switch allegiences and is clever enough to know that he should back the winning side (which FIA is not). He simply has to bung a bit more cash at them and behind the scenes, ensure that this time , Max does fall under the wheels of the bus....

You know it makes sense....

I agree with you too, but I am sure if FOTA wants they do have what it takes to set up their own series.

If Bernie can somehow kick Max out, I am sure things will become a lot better.

[HandyNZL 1]

So can we go racing....now?

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

I agree with you too, but I am sure if FOTA wants they do have what it takes to set up their own series.

Yes you are right, FOTA could get their own series, but not in 2010, unless Bernie helps them.

If Bernie can somehow kick Max out, I am sure things will become a lot better.

Immeasurably so.

[freaky2 1]

I think that if they just wanted to go racing we would have a breakaway series in 2010. Where there's a will there's a way. Now, when the will is not quite about the racing... we get into these situations. Sigh.

[F1 FANatic 1]

Yes you are right, FOTA could get their own series, but not in 2010, unless Bernie helps them.

Everybody talks about how Burnie saved F1 and made it a global empire and how any series without him will be destined to fail. But why, yes he saved F1 but its not like he has patents on his buiseness model. Burnie has spent 30 year making F1 what it is but FOTA can just take that exact model, change up the parts that don't suit them and come out on top.

And Honestly, of all the people who say they will watch F1 instead of FOTA because of the spirit of Priveteer teams, how many will really spend the amount of money Burnie extorts from fans for watching cars that will feature third rate drivers and cars 15 seconds slower than FOTA cars if they can watch FOTA for cheaper and watch people like Button, Vettel, Kimi, Massa, Alonsa, Kubi, and the rest?

[Max Mosley 2]

Like most people, I doubt it will happen in the end. It's a fun debate but most likely that's all. Just on F1Fanatic's interesting points above, F1 cars wouldn't be 15s/lap slower - they needn't be any slower because (1) you hardly need any money to build a fast car these days, and (2) there's a limit to how fast you can go. F1 would still have enough money to reach that limit. And it would have the privateers, as you say, which appeal much more to me than the here-for-now manufacturers. In the end, I'd of course prefer the series with the most egalitarian rules.

[DOF_power 0]

Like most people, I doubt it will happen in the end. It's a fun debate but most likely that's all. Just on F1Fanatic's interesting points above, F1 cars wouldn't be 15s/lap slower - they needn't be any slower because (1) you hardly need any money to build a fast car these days, and (2) there's a limit to how fast you can go. F1 would still have enough money to reach that limit. And it would have the privateers, as you say, which appeal much more to me than the here-for-now manufacturers. In the end, I'd of course prefer the series with the most egalitarian rules.

Redd Bull, Brawn and TR are privateers.

People just want the best.

Without the best teams and drivers you won't have that.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Saw on Sky Sports News that there'll only be 6 teams in the FIA F1 teams for next year, 3 newbies so Nico for WDC 2010 !

[armil 3]

FOTA series will have an instant credibility because of the teams involved; and this credibility will allow the new series to have instant access to TV contracts, sponsors and racetracks. the only thing missing is the control people (stewards, flag people, officials) there is a lot of people with califications to to this; per example here in Mexico a friend of mine was an official for the champ car series, they have all the contacs and the experience of an open wheel series. I'm sure there is a lot people with the same credentials in many contries like england, germany etc. just look at the F3 people, or the rest of the open wheel series around the world

[yurp 0]

Everyone making good points both ways on this - enjoyed going through what I've missed overnight.

I can see a variety of outcomes here - so we'll have to indulge string theory and go with the multiple alternate realities for a while...

Reality 1 > FIA call FOTA bluff and FOTA have to accept that they don't have the ability funds to create new series - Max gets his wicked way.

Reality 2 > Bernie gives Max the elbow (not knowing if FOTA are bluffing or not), teams come back under FIA / F1 family with more cash from Bernie and a confirmed influence on the rulemaking process.

Reality 3 > FOTA forms new series, It withers on the vine for lack of funds and investor confidence due to FIA threatening and maybe even attempting to sue. FOTA teams have no choice but to come grovelling back to Bernie - Some don't out of pride and move to other series (Le Mans etc), some do.

Reality 4 > FOTA forms series, Max threatens to sue, but enough people realise that he's not got a leg to stand on that new series manages to scrap by or the first 1-2 seasons before Bernie gives Max the elbow and invites everyone back into F1 (this reality stream merges back into Reality 1)

Reality 5 > FOTA forms new series and despite Max's best efforts they steal enough teams away from F1 that F1 becomes a laughing stock and FOTA series becomes dominent series within 2 years.

Reality 6 > Bernie decides its the end of the road for F1 and decides to retire. Max is left out in the cold as F1 implodes and FOTA has no obstruction at all in setting up new series even using former F1 tracks.

A few defining moments over the next few months...

Do FOTA demonstrate willingness to make good on their threat to break away? (this is what makes me dubious right now)

IF they do...

Does Bernie back or leave Max?

Does FIA fols and allow FOTA teams bak in on their terms?

Does F1 retain enough teams of quality not to fold after 1 more season.

Does FIA attempt to sue FOTA in order simply to mire them in legal proceedings.

Are TV channels able to cancel their contracts with Bernie on the basis that they're not getting what they paid for (i.e. F1 is no longer F1)?

Does FOTA series garner enough interest to get sponsors umping over to them (sponsors are associated with teams NOT the series)?

Essentially, if FOTA are serious about new series and they come out on top in terms of...

no. of top teams

no. of top drivers

no. of top sponsors

enough tracks to race on

TV coverage

... then I don't see them having the major money problems that Old Spice talked about.

If they don't come out o top in any of those fields, then he could well be right and money will be a major issue.

TV channels will find it easy enough to jump ship or other TV channels in every country will jump at the chance of covering a new series that is better than the one their richer rivals paid millions for. (Just think of the glee at ITV at getting FOTA series for cheaper than BBC paid for F1 that is tanking.)

Long post - sorry

[Oli 1]

Don't apologise! Interesting thoughts, although it has to be said that is the very definition of sitting on the fence :-)

My opinion, FWIW, is that I can't see any way in which a new series can be organised for 2010. 2011 perhaps, but what stands in the way of it right now is that FOTA do not have a coherent leadership. I am the first to criticise Max in many things, but I don't think he's purely on an ego trip which many people seem to think. The fact is, without a budget cap F1 is not sustainable in its current form. I totally disagree with the two tier idea and I think suggesting that was a huge mistake on Max's part, but he's doing the right thing in trying to bring costs down.

What I find curious is that so many people seem to think that somehow the infighting, politics and selfishness will evaporate as soon as FOTA get shot of Max, and based on the available evidence that's ludicrous hubris. Who decides how this formula is run? Every team is going to be trying to manipulate the rules to suit its own agenda. It's going to be the same old crap over and over. When did the manufacturers become this saintly entity who do everything for the good of the sport?

[yurp 0]

Update - 'BBC expects to walk away from

[yurp 0]

Don't apologise! Interesting thoughts, although it has to be said that is the very definition of sitting on the fence :-)

- yep

[F1 FANatic 1]

Everyone making good points both ways on this - enjoyed going through what I've missed overnight.

I can see a variety of outcomes here - so we'll have to indulge string theory and go with the multiple alternate realities for a while...

Reality 1 > FIA call FOTA bluff and FOTA have to accept that they don't have the ability funds to create new series - Max gets his wicked way.

Reality 2 > Bernie gives Max the elbow (not knowing if FOTA are bluffing or not), teams come back under FIA / F1 family with more cash from Bernie and a confirmed influence on the rulemaking process.

Reality 3 > FOTA forms new series, It withers on the vine for lack of funds and investor confidence due to FIA threatening and maybe even attempting to sue. FOTA teams have no choice but to come grovelling back to Bernie - Some don't out of pride and move to other series (Le Mans etc), some do.

Reality 4 > FOTA forms series, Max threatens to sue, but enough people realise that he's not got a leg to stand on that new series manages to scrap by or the first 1-2 seasons before Bernie gives Max the elbow and invites everyone back into F1 (this reality stream merges back into Reality 1)

Reality 5 > FOTA forms new series and despite Max's best efforts they steal enough teams away from F1 that F1 becomes a laughing stock and FOTA series becomes dominent series within 2 years.

Reality 6 > Bernie decides its the end of the road for F1 and decides to retire. Max is left out in the cold as F1 implodes and FOTA has no obstruction at all in setting up new series even using former F1 tracks.

A few defining moments over the next few months...

Do FOTA demonstrate willingness to make good on their threat to break away? (this is what makes me dubious right now)

IF they do...

Does Bernie back or leave Max?

Does FIA fols and allow FOTA teams bak in on their terms?

Does F1 retain enough teams of quality not to fold after 1 more season.

Does FIA attempt to sue FOTA in order simply to mire them in legal proceedings.

Are TV channels able to cancel their contracts with Bernie on the basis that they're not getting what they paid for (i.e. F1 is no longer F1)?

Does FOTA series garner enough interest to get sponsors umping over to them (sponsors are associated with teams NOT the series)?

Essentially, if FOTA are serious about new series and they come out on top in terms of...

no. of top teams

no. of top drivers

no. of top sponsors

enough tracks to race on

TV coverage

... then I don't see them having the major money problems that Old Spice talked about.

If they don't come out o top in any of those fields, then he could well be right and money will be a major issue.

TV channels will find it easy enough to jump ship or other TV channels in every country will jump at the chance of covering a new series that is better than the one their richer rivals paid millions for. (Just think of the glee at ITV at getting FOTA series for cheaper than BBC paid for F1 that is tanking.)

Long post - sorry

Very interesting, I agree with most of that. There are a couple of points I want to make though.

First off, tracks. The tracks are not bound to only running Formula one, most don't, only turkey does because nobody else wants to drive there. Burnie has no influance there except if he massively slashes his fees and then requires a no-compete clause but I doubt most tracks would go for it. Max does have a bit more power, he can revoke a tracks FIA sanction for hosting any FIA race but would he really be willing to pull the sanction from almost ever major track in Europe, not to mention Interlagos, Indy and Montreal, just so the tracks would not sign up with FOTA?

And as for drivers. All of the current top drivers have said they would follow their teams. Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi and Massa are under contract and have said they would stay with Ferrari no matter where they would move. Vettle and Webber will probuably stay with RBR and Button has already aligned himself with Brawn. I doubt Kubi or Nick would not move with BMW.

Also, i bet most younger drivers would not want to drive in cut rate racing League with Max and Manor GP if they could drive with Ferrari and Meclaren

[yurp 0]

Very interesting, I agree with most of that. There are a couple of points I want to make though.

First off, tracks. The tracks are not bound to only running Formula one, most don't, only turkey does because nobody else wants to drive there. Burnie has no influance there except if he massively slashes his fees and then requires a no-compete clause but I doubt most tracks would go for it. Max does have a bit more power, he can revoke a tracks FIA sanction for hosting any FIA race but would he really be willing to pull the sanction from almost ever major track in Europe, not to mention Interlagos, Indy and Montreal, just so the tracks would not sign up with FOTA?

And as for drivers. All of the current top drivers have said they would follow their teams. Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi and Massa are under contract and have said they would stay with Ferrari no matter where they would move. Vettle and Webber will probuably stay with RBR and Button has already aligned himself with Brawn. I doubt Kubi or Nick would not move with BMW.

Also, i bet most younger drivers would not want to drive in cut rate racing League with Max and Manor GP if they could drive with Ferrari and Meclaren

yep - very true.

many of the obsticles to a new series will disappear once the FOTA series had been established as the top dog between the two.

Since Max is intent on castrating F1 - that won't be tricky.

It's an easy pick for broadcasters, sponsors, drivers, future teams -

Formula one in all but name (and under better management) VS the F1 brand devoid of everything that currently constitutes it.

Like you say - many tracks are open to FOTA and F1 also.

As for Max pulling all licenses from tracks - I agree - he isn't going to be doing that. He does however have to agree to licensing the new series itself - which he might get twatty about. If FOTA do go ahead, they'll have to be seriously careful about not giving him any excuses to deny them the license.

[F1 FANatic 1]

FOTA does not need a License from the FIA to run the series. The FIA is not the only organization out there and from the looks of it FOTA sound like they would set up their own organization to only deal with their series

[dribbler 6]

Excuse not acceptable.

Okay, fine. I have been too busy watching my Westlife DVD collection.

Why do you think it is problem to get TV deal with brands like those involved? There more than one TV network in any country worth of TV broadcasting Formula. Why do you think that Silverstone would be off limits for them, or Jerez or Canada or Fuji or Magny Cours or then new one in Portugal...

Speaking on behalf of the British television viewers, we have waited years for F1 to return to The BBC. No adverts, fantastic. Even casual observers who I speak to love the fact that the best broadcaster, possibly in the world, once again has the right to air F1. You confuse that by allowing some makeshift and unofficial series to spring up and be broadcast on a second rate satellite channel? The occasional viewers are confused already. You want to add that scenario to the mix? No thank you.

Haha , yeah down with FIA! down with Bernie! Down with Max!! down with stupid rules every year, down with restricted tecnology and revlimit engines....down down down!!!!!!!!! FIA die !!! MMMwhwhhhuuaaahahahahhaahahhahahahahhaah

Long live the new FOTA series!!!!!!!!!

sorry Steve, could'nt resist, the feeling is just exhilirating!!!

Sorry folks don't gt too excited, its all sabre-rattling.

FOTA are not going to create a new series. Financially does not stack up. Who's going to underwrite the setup costs? Where are the tickets for the new venues? Where are the advertisers? Sponsors? TV stations? Stewards? Circuits? Rules? Just not there. It is a bargaining ploy.

If anybody thinks they can pull this together before March 2010 they are in cloud-cuckoo land. Really. I have had experience on a limited scale of commercial contracts/operations and can tell you now it is not going to happen in 2010. 2011, maybe but not next year. They would have had to have started this a year ago if they had wanted to do so and F1 being leakier than a sieve would have heard about this.

And as for Max's threatened legal action - all a crock. Best they could do is try to sue Ferrari, Red Bull/STR but Ferrari can probably get out on grounds that FIA have breached contract. Indeed Max's statement on public record that they can set up their own series would be used as evidence against him.

Bernie is key in this; he has too much to lose and will be pulling strings. World Motor Sport Council will intervene and backtrack. Max will fall on his sword. F1 will be redefined under FIA with new governance.

In fact I would not be surprised if this was a plot to oust Max anyway; last attempt failed. Think they will be more successful this time.

Excellent post, Chris. You saved my slow witted fingers much key plodding. Just to add; Who out of the team owners would be 'Max' and an impartial? Ridiculous.

Who said it was going to happen in 2010 (if at all)? Any Herbert with half a brain would realise that that's a very tall order. Yes, it is sabre rattling but it's also necessary sabre rattling. It's time all these festering grudges were settled, one way or another. You really think this will unseat Max? Seems to me he's pretty adept at digging in.

When a police officer explains why he enforced the law, is he (the police officer) accused of 'digging in'? Laws and rules are not there to be questioned, they are there to be obided. If the general public revolted by trying to ignore the law and run the country as they saw fit, there would be anarchy because no one would see the greater good, only the short term good to themselves. This is why the teams should not be allowed to run a breakaway series. Their competitive nature mirrors the human nature of greed. Where the teams have been lucky is the FIA's flexibility in being prepared to discuss 'the law' with the teams. They should try and remember this whilst chucking their toys around.

Some reasons it ain't gonna happen:

1) Do you honestly think Bernie is going to let his business empire crumble? He has made F1 and stands to lose too much. Easier for him to stick the knife into Max and stick with the teams, who are his cash-cow. Even if they did go it alone Bernie could make life very difficult or very easy for them to do this - he has the infrastructure and the contacts.

2) Money - all very well going on about lowering circuit fees - but remember FOM pay the teams a chunk of money; this money comes from sale of TV rights, advertising, sponsorship, branding/merchandising, circuit fees.

TV ad revenues have declined 16% in the last year, part of an ongoing 3 year trend. It has got so bad in UK that of its two biggest ad-funded channels, one is now talking to Sky about moving some of its digital channels into their pay-TV platform (and getting revenue-share) and has cancelled many of its new productions; the other recently was rumoured to be in with a share of licence fee money (e.g. a share of the "tax" UK residents pay on TV ownership). The channels don't have the money to back a series, especially where there are unknowns. F1 as a brand is known, predictable, etc.

TV companies will only pay rights if they can cover off their liability with advertising/sponsorship, charging a premium for association with F1. i) FIA will enforce its rights to the F1 brand limiting what it can be called ii) most advertisers/sponsors will be very wary of making long-term commitments, especially if there is a threat of FIA suing FOTA/Ferrari and will probably only commit to low fees or race-by-race fees until the legal action is over. Big money will be tied up in contracts which FIA own and will enforce. Plus it is unlikely they could do a full season so revenue is going to be hacked anyway.

This will not generate enough money to cover the running costs of the organisation especially initially, so FOTA will have to subsidise it. Think about this - not only are they getting less money, they are going to have to pay out more.

Circuits - OK so lower their fees, cheaper tickets, but underlying declining ticket revenues and loss of fans from this whole sorry affair will impact upon this; plus would you want to buy tickets for a race a year away for a new series that may be under legal threat?

Merchandising will take an impact as FIA will protect the F1 moniker, meaning existing merchandising is junk - lost revenues and increased costs.

Sponsors will want to join in like a doctor wants to French-kiss a Swine 'Flu' victim - they will be nervous of long-term commitment for the same reasons above in an already tough market with the threat of legal action (and related halo effects).

Costs - will go up. Someone has to put a management team in place to promote the races, project manage them, check them out for safety, organise the logistics, arrange the deals, handle the finances, deal with the IT. Someone has to bank-roll this. Where does this money come from????

And then you have the teams, who are already struggling to find sponsorship (given the impact of the row) in a declining advertising market, with less income coming in from established sources, under pressure from their corporate owners who are themselves struggling. Do you honestly think they are going to want to cough up millions of cash to subsidise tracks, pay for management, etc?

Hell no.

The only way this will happen in the short-medium term is if Bernie is there. He has already demonstrated he can and will switch allegiences and is clever enough to know that he should back the winning side (which FIA is not). He simply has to bung a bit more cash at them and behind the scenes, ensure that this time , Max does fall under the wheels of the bus....

You know it makes sense....

Sense indeed.

[wapi 4]

Speaking on behalf of the British television viewers, we have waited years for F1 to return to The BBC. No adverts, fantastic. Even casual observers who I speak to love the fact that the best broadcaster, possibly in the world, once again has the right to air F1. You confuse that by allowing some makeshift and unofficial series to spring up and be broadcast on a second rate satellite channel? The occasional viewers are confused already. You want to add that scenario to the mix? No thank you.

I am deeply sorry that Briatain has only one decent TV network My choice is much better.

[yurp 0]

FOTA does not need a License from the FIA to run the series. The FIA is not the only organization out there and from the looks of it FOTA sound like they would set up their own organization to only deal with their series

ahh - I just reread the piece from which I got my misconception...

Even the FIA president, Max Mosley, has admitted that the governing body will be prepared to license a breakaway series if the manufacturers choose, although whether he will be so sanguine when it comes to the crunch remains to be seen, particularly as most Fota members make little secret of the fact that Mosley is the main cause of the problem.

I read that as meaning they'd require FIA license, but you're right - all it really says is that FIA could license them - not that it has to be the FIA.

I assumed too much - thanks for putting me straight.

In fact that means even one less potential obsticle to a new series - jolly good.

[cavallino 2]

I am deeply sorry that Briatain has only one decent TV network My choice is much better.

The world has only one decent TV network. It happens to be British.