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I doubt that's true but it's obvious his calm and happy demeanour is (understandably) beginning to wane because of Ferrari's lack of progress. After Suzuka he said something like he'd had the same car for x many races or something like this. If things don't improve I wouldn't be surprised if some toys left the pram, these things happen.

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For those following the Beebs Murray\Benson "Greatest F1 Drivers" listing - Clark at #3 :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20124557

I've always considered myself a rabid Senna fan (The '94 Benetton had illegal aids !) , but even I've gotta say that what Fangio and Clark did goes beyond Sennas achievements. At this rate, I expect they'll probably rate Senna higher than Fangio too, pity.

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I doubt that's true but it's obvious his calm and happy demeanour is (understandably) beginning to wane because of Ferrari's lack of progress. After Suzuka he said something like he'd had the same car for x many races or something like this. If things don't improve I wouldn't be surprised if some toys left the pram, these things happen.

Sometimes the dummy has to leave the pram, there is more than one way to skin a cat after all and sometimes it helps to have a good dummy throw . However, and this is not just aimed at Alonso, it's usually better if the pram is indoors when the dummy leaves it :lol:

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He should be upset. Domenicali should be upset. That entire team should be upset. They were given so many free passes thanks to the FIA regulating Red Bull, McLaren hitting a bad stretch, and Alonso delivering results no one expected. No one ever took that to mean "fix the problems and kick everyone while they're down" and instead just fumbled around on a cushion that went from insurmountable to over in a few hundred feet at Suzuka. I still believe that never getting rid of Massa sets a bad example and makes the wrong statement to the entire staff. You don't have to have a dramatic, ugly, and classless firing of the guy, but you had to do something to say "Ferrari, as a team, are better than this." If they weren't better than Massa's performance this year, how can they say they are better than failed upgrades race after race? And in that case, how can they expect to get better upgrades?

I realize it's more complicated than that. Still, I have a hard time seeing a team that can win WDCs or WCCs with Alonso in their car as one that's operating effectively. I know Red Bull and Vettel are incredible, they're winning because they're great, not because other teams are deficient, but this year just shows that Ferrari and Alonso could have had a lot more from their relationship.

For those following the Beebs Murray\Benson "Greatest F1 Drivers" listing - Clark at #3 :

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20124557

I've always considered myself a rabid Senna fan (The '94 Benetton had illegal aids !) , but even I've gotta say that what Fangio and Clark did goes beyond Sennas achievements. At this rate, I expect they'll probably rate Senna higher than Fangio too, pity.

I always find lists like this difficult. There are very few people who have observed every driver from 1950-2012 race live and don't have some sort of bias to a particular era (they were real men in the 60s) or person (Senna was a god) or team (all the best drove for Ferrari) or accomplishment (I won't even consider anyone who didn't win Monaco) or statistic (Schumacher has 91 wins so he's the best). It's also hard to figure out what winning a race in 1955 meant and what winning in 2005 meant etc etc etc. Who were people racing against, what were the cars like, what were the conditions like, did it take more to get in a car when the chance of dying was much higher, does it take more now that the field is more even, all that stuff. You think long enough and you get to a point where it's unfair to say anything about anyone. :lol:

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He should be upset. Domenicali should be upset. That entire team should be upset. They were given so many free passes thanks to the FIA regulating Red Bull, McLaren hitting a bad stretch, and Alonso delivering results no one expected. No one ever took that to mean "fix the problems and kick everyone while they're down" and instead just fumbled around on a cushion that went from insurmountable to over in a few hundred feet at Suzuka. I still believe that never getting rid of Massa sets a bad example and makes the wrong statement to the entire staff. You don't have to have a dramatic, ugly, and classless firing of the guy, but you had to do something to say "Ferrari, as a team, are better than this." If they weren't better than Massa's performance this year, how can they say they are better than failed upgrades race after race? And in that case, how can they expect to get better upgrades?

I realize it's more complicated than that. Still, I have a hard time seeing a team that can win WDCs or WCCs with Alonso in their car as one that's operating effectively. I know Red Bull and Vettel are incredible, they're winning because they're great, not because other teams are deficient, but this year just shows that Ferrari and Alonso could have had a lot more from their relationship.

Indeed. In these last races, everybody will be scrutinizing every word Alonso says and turn and twist them until they fit the "he is just a big crybaby" image. That bit of news reek of falsehood as a whole (how do people know what he wrote if he never tweeted it? Either he shown that to half the team, or SD talked, and that would make even less sense as he was the guy trying to cover the 'story', right? It is absurd as it is told. Either there are big chumks of the story amiss or it is just a plain lie). But let's assume for those who will still stubbornly think that this is not just true, but the 'natural' thing Alonso does.

He has every right to be mad. Geez, in a year were 90% of humanity (I define humanity as 'people who watched at least one F1 race, or has received the meme with the 'f1' computer key as a joke) admitted Alonso's efforts and prowess to be up there, to watch his hopes of a WDC disappear because the car disadvantage which has been there all year has not only not disappeared when RBR finally played the Newey card, but worsened because that was the time Ferrari found that (yet again) they screwed up with the wind tunnel would be frustrating for anyone. Alonso has dragged the team on and on, and so far no one in the team said otherwise. He has been under enormous pressure all year, yet kept pushing and smiling all the time. Can't the guy let out some steam without being called a crybaby?

To add insult to injury, this year there's not a single F1 personality you can name as a standard to measure Alonso's 'crybabyness' as all of them made asses of themselves all year. Who would you want to show as an opposite of Alonso the moaner? Vettel ("Cucumber" "Do something anything!")? Kimi ("My steering wheel!!! My steering wheel!!"), Button ("No grip! No grip!!!!"), Lewis ("Guys, we should retire" Twittergate)? Unless you are a fan of Bernd Rosenmeyer, I don't think any other character in the paddock has any moral grounds to compare Alonso's attitude even if he decided to tweet Stefano Domenicali's impersonation of Flavio, thong and all.

Cut the guy some slack. Shut up and enjoy the best driver of this generation. Nobody (until this post :P) decided to convert all those idiotic moments from other drivers into proof of them being failures. So don't even try :P

I always find lists like this difficult. There are very few people who have observed every driver from 1950-2012 race live and don't have some sort of bias to a particular era (they were real men in the 60s) or person (Senna was a god) or team (all the best drove for Ferrari) or accomplishment (I won't even consider anyone who didn't win Monaco) or statistic (Schumacher has 91 wins so he's the best). It's also hard to figure out what winning a race in 1955 meant and what winning in 2005 meant etc etc etc. Who were people racing against, what were the cars like, what were the conditions like, did it take more to get in a car when the chance of dying was much higher, does it take more now that the field is more even, all that stuff. You think long enough and you get to a point where it's unfair to say anything about anyone. laugh.png

I agree. However, with their logical differences, most lists tend to choose more or less the same drivers even if in different order (you'd rarely find Andrea de Cesaris in those lists, and you rarely find Senna missing for example.) That being said, BBC's one is particularly idiotic in that sense and much vilified, with reason :lol:

Murray has to go!! ('Their' Murray, not 'ours' wherever he might be!)

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Eric, I agree with you about Ferrari and also about those lists. To be fair, I don't think they claim it's anything other than a personal view. Walker's opinion is interesting because he probably has seen them all, although of course that doesn't make his opinion definitive.

I don't think Clark, Senna and Fangio are a bad top three, to be honest. Watching any of them onboard always gives somehow a different feeling to watching anybody else, in my opinion (and I thought that before I really knew that much about any of them and I was first getting into F1). As for Clark at #3, well, the thing with Clark is that whenever I meet anybody who did see him drive they almost always say that he was the greatest they ever saw, and that's when they've seen Senna and sometimes, Fangio too. It's a fun discussion starter.

Anyway, I think it's probably better to think about the "Kings of their era/decade" and the Kings as I see them are Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, and now probably Alonso. Some of the them didn't get to reign all that long before another master came in and overshadowed them, and in some cases those guys were dominant and in a class of one, in other cases they were pushed incredibly hard by their contemporaries and got similar or slightly fewer achievements, but were simply more impressive over their time in F1. In the opinion of somebody who never saw most of those people race tongue.png

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Indeed. In these last races, everybody will be scrutinizing every word Alonso says and turn and twist them until they fit the "he is just a big crybaby" image. That bit of news reek of falsehood as a whole (how do people know what he wrote if he never tweeted it? Either he shown that to half the team, or SD talked, and that would make even less sense as he was the guy trying to cover the 'story', right? It is absurd as it is told. Either there are big chumks of the story amiss or it is just a plain lie). But let's assume for those who will still stubbornly think that this is not just true, but the 'natural' thing Alonso does.

He has every right to be mad. Geez, in a year were 90% of humanity (I define humanity as 'people who watched at least one F1 race, or has received the meme with the 'f1' computer key as a joke) admitted Alonso's efforts and prowess to be up there, to watch his hopes of a WDC disappear because the car disadvantage which has been there all year has not only not disappeared when RBR finally played the Newey card, but worsened because that was the time Ferrari found that (yet again) they screwed up with the wind tunnel would be frustrating for anyone. Alonso has dragged the team on and on, and so far no one in the team said otherwise. He has been under enormous pressure all year, yet kept pushing and smiling all the time. Can't the guy let out some steam without being called a crybaby?

To add insult to injury, this year there's not a single F1 personality you can name as a standard to measure Alonso's 'crybabyness' as all of them made asses of themselves all year. Who would you want to show as an opposite of Alonso the moaner? Vettel ("Cucumber" "Do something anything!")? Kimi ("My steering wheel!!! My steering wheel!!"), Button ("No grip! No grip!!!!"), Lewis ("Guys, we should retire" Twittergate)? Unless you are a fan of Bernd Rosenmeyer, I don't think any other character in the paddock has any moral grounds to compare Alonso's attitude even if he decided to tweet Stefano Domenicali's impersonation of Flavio, thong and all.

Cut the guy some slack. Shut up and enjoy the best driver of this generation. Nobody (until this post tongue.png) decided to convert all those idiotic moments from other drivers into proof of them being failures. So don't even try tongue.png

Schumi. He never whined likes these bunch of cry baby F1 drivers :whistling:

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Schumi. He never whined likes these bunch of cry baby F1 drivers whistling.gif

:lol: I give you this, he was probably the less annoying when it came to celebrations. I even found Alonso irritating in 2005/2006 with those silly postures and hand gestures.

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laugh.png I give you this, he was probably the less annoying when it came to celebrations. I even found Alonso irritating in 2005/2006 with those silly postures and hand gestures.

Celebrations never bother me. I watch football, groups of grown men hug and kiss each other when they score, for crying out loud. A bit of fingering is nothing in comparison :lol:

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Celebrations never bother me. I watch football, groups of grown men hug and kiss each other when they score, for crying out loud. A bit of fingering is nothing in comparison laugh.png

Thanks for making me choke on my morning tea!

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To add insult to injury, this year there's not a single F1 personality you can name as a standard to measure Alonso's 'crybabyness' as all of them made asses of themselves all year. Who would you want to show as an opposite of Alonso the moaner? Vettel ("Cucumber" "Do something anything!")? Kimi ("My steering wheel!!! My steering wheel!!"), Button ("No grip! No grip!!!!"), Lewis ("Guys, we should retire" Twittergate)? Unless you are a fan of Bernd Rosenmeyer, I don't think any other character in the paddock has any moral grounds to compare Alonso's attitude even if he decided to tweet Stefano Domenicali's impersonation of Flavio,

Hey, Kimi didn't have 3 years to adapt

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Hey, Kimi didn't have 3 years to adapt

:lol: My point was not "everybody is a crybaby" (Kimi included). I was about to write that none of them was, but actually I found the Vettel comments at least very awkward and Button specially annoying. In Button's defense I must say that it is probably because I am not used to hear so many complaints from him and because the guy's comments of no grip were amplified by the constant exposure British drivers have.

I found the jokes about Kimi and his never ending steering wheel woes fun, but didn't make me think for a second that he was 'moaning all the time about the wheel'.

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Don't see what all the fuss is about with Alonso, he's got a point and all drivers moan at one point or another.

Not being an Alonsophile particularly, he has really impressed me this season - of course he has a tremendous track record, etc, but this season think his driving/approach has moved up a further level - seems very focused and at the top of his game.

Can't help thinking that were Mr Todt still in Ferrari that he might be clutching the WDC trophy already though....

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I knew it! That's what 20 years in a corrective institution will do to you smile.png

Just don't bend down for the soap in the showers biggrin.png

Why, are you lurking in the showers again ??

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Were M.Todt still at Ferrari, Alonso would be racing for HRT along with PDLR as he vouched never to allow Nando to race for Ferrari while he were still there, remember? :D

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Young driver test from today. Kevin Magnussen was quickest for McLaren. A lot of people are very high on this da Costa guy; he came in mid-season in Formula Renault 3.5 and won just about everything.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/testresults/1510/formula-1-test-in-abu-dhabi-6-november-2012/

Another driver who will be testing this winter? Eddie Cheever, III. with Ferrari, in the F10, for winning the Italian Formula 3 Championship. Oddly enough, his father tested for Ferrari in 1977. If you thought Massa and some failed upgrades were "mediocracy," I'm not sure how you expected otherwise from a team that has consented to not one but two Cheevers getting behind the wheel... :P

(And I say that even as the only fan of Eddie Cheever).

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Young driver test from today. Kevin Magnussen was quickest for McLaren. A lot of people are very high on this da Costa guy; he came in mid-season in Formula Renault 3.5 and won just about everything.

http://www.gpupdate....-november-2012/

Another driver who will be testing this winter? Eddie Cheever, III. with Ferrari, in the F10, for winning the Italian Formula 3 Championship. Oddly enough, his father tested for Ferrari in 1977. If you thought Massa and some failed upgrades were "mediocracy," I'm not sure how you expected otherwise from a team that has consented to not one but two Cheevers getting behind the wheel... tongue.png

(And I say that even as the only fan of Eddie Cheever).

Sadly you probably are, Eric laugh.png

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Young driver test from today. Kevin Magnussen was quickest for McLaren. A lot of people are very high on this da Costa guy; he came in mid-season in Formula Renault 3.5 and won just about everything.

http://www.gpupdate....-november-2012/

Another driver who will be testing this winter? Eddie Cheever, III. with Ferrari, in the F10, for winning the Italian Formula 3 Championship. Oddly enough, his father tested for Ferrari in 1977. If you thought Massa and some failed upgrades were "mediocracy," I'm not sure how you expected otherwise from a team that has consented to not one but two Cheevers getting behind the wheel... tongue.png

(And I say that even as the only fan of Eddie Cheever).

Felix da Costa is known to me and though his fans are many he couldn't quite pip Magnussen in what could be termed an inferior car. I like the Dane - a lot. Super quick and smooth.

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I find it impressive that he was nearly 1 second up on Paffett, too. Even though Paffett's not exactly an F1 ace, he certainly has a ton more F1 miles than anyone else on that results sheet, so for Magnussen to just crush him like that in what I think is his first F1 outing is a great job.

One thing, RE: da Costa, was that he had these aerodynamic sensors on his car. I'm not sure if those sensors have any kind of impact on weight or aerodynamics.

212940.jpg

Frijns and Gutiérrez at Sauber should be something to watch, too. I think they the only guys testing who have a shot at the race seat in 2013, though I may be overlooking someone.

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One thing, RE: da Costa, was that he had these aerodynamic sensors on his car. I'm not sure if those sensors have any kind of impact on weight or aerodynamics.

No, they are not aerodynamic sensors, this is Red Bull's move into the home improvement territory (obviously hoping to pick up a few sponsors) - this is the F1-Trellis - if you watch carefully over the next few weeks they'll start growing a nice honeysuckle or clematis up there.... :)

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Predictable: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20253052

I admit, the delay in the race being put online was quite annoying and clearly a result of the swearing as the BBC are normally very fast, and drivers should set a better example because younger audiences might get the wrong impression. But honestly, the viewers who actually complain at stuff like this must have the most bizarre perception of the world.

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