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Just noticed that quote about Vettel in your signature. I like it. thbup.gif

smile.png

thanks bud

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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My least favorite "prank" article today was the one about a Grand Prix at Lime Rock Park. While I knew right away that it was a joke (F1 on a 1.5-mile track without any permanent seating in Nowhere, Connecticut...), I wanted it so badly to be true. I'd tough out the two-hour drive for that. tongue.png

I will surely done the same too.. :) I'm a new guy here, got trolled on how to get to the last page of this forum..hahaha!

@Bradspeedman : You signature rocks men.. I like Vettel! He's not my favorite but I loved him. :)

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@Bradspeedman : You signature rocks men.. I like Vettel! He's not my favorite but I loved him. smile.png

welcome kingjabs... not only does my signature rocks!! But Vettel does too!!! with or without team orders!

Who's your favourite...Kimi?

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welcome kingjabs... not only does my signature rocks!! But Vettel does too!!! with or without team orders!

Who's your favourite...Kimi?

How did you know? HAHAHA! Yeah! Best of friends.. he's a kind dude so as Vettell, but I liked him the most. smile.png

Thanks for the warm welcome Bradspeedman!

Edited by kingjabs

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How did you know? HAHAHA! Yeah! Best of friends.. he's a kind dude so as Vettell, but I liked him the most. smile.png

Thanks for the warm welcome Bradspeedman!

You're welcome...Call me Brad for short...

How did I know?... Kimi fans don't seem to mind about Vettel's success and as you alluded...they're best friends... smile.png

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"Nice men don't win"

that is somewhat arguable IMO.

The best hockey player who ever lived, Wayne Gretzky, was a gentleman off teh ice but a killer on the ice in the way that he always found a way to beat the opponent,not by cheating or fist fighting, but with incredible plays.

Joe Montana, in my book, one of the best quater back of all time, was the same, a gentleman off the field but a killer when he played. It woulds have been unthinkable for him to cheat of backstab a team mate or an opponent.

George St-Pierre, ultimate fighting world champion, is the same.

I would add that neither Fernando, Button nor any other F1 champion I can think of (except the Cheater, of course) could cheat or backstab a team mate or opponent like Baby Shum did.

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How did you know? HAHAHA! Yeah! Best of friends.. he's a kind dude so as Vettell, but I liked him the most. smile.png

Thanks for the warm welcome Bradspeedman!

Welcome to GPToday!

"Nice men don't win"

that is somewhat arguable IMO.

The best hockey player who ever lived, Wayne Gretzky, was a gentleman off teh ice but a killer on the ice in the way that he always found a way to beat the opponent,not by cheating or fist fighting, but with incredible plays.

Joe Montana, in my book, one of the best quater back of all time, was the same, a gentleman off the field but a killer when he played. It woulds have been unthinkable for him to cheat of backstab a team mate or an opponent.

George St-Pierre, ultimate fighting world champion, is the same.

I would add that neither Fernando, Button nor any other F1 champion I can think of (except the Cheater, of course) could cheat or backstab a team mate or opponent like Baby Shum did.

I'd offer that Vettel is a good guy away from the track, and a killer on it. Obviously, personal opinions will vary.

I think what makes it so interesting is that there are different ways to be a champion. The title is one in its own way every single year. There are things Vettel does that other drivers wouldn't. There are things Vettel does that other drivers just can't do. And I think the same goes if you replace Vettel with the names of any of the other champions. To me, that's great. Some think that you shouldn't cross the line; others only care about the lines they cross first. Those different approaches are the main reason we still have drivers and not autonomous racing cars, I think. It makes it interesting to say, "yeah, Vettel would do that to win, Alonso would do this, Button would do that, in Hamilton's year he had to do that, but Räikkönen won it this way." Whether I like Vettel's move or not, I like that it happened because it was different. It was exciting. Things can be exciting and wrong simultaneously, though I'm indifferent as to whether or not it was wrong.

Does being a World Champion excuse Vettel from every wrongdoing, should he commit any? Of course not. But I don't think any wrongdoing excuses the lack of recognition Vettel's gotten for his accomplishments. I'd hate to think I was alive to see the driver of the generation and spent the entire time trying to argue he was anything else (which isn't to say Vettel is or isn't...just that he could be when this is all through...)

To me, F1's just fun, and people can take it with varying degrees of seriousness. I totally respect your view, Jean-Pierre, and the views of others that there are certain actions that really challenge a sport, and certain things more important than winning. Still, I enjoy the fact that, in F1, they can test those limits without consequence. It's everything you couldn't see in real life. I think that's what makes it great, that someone can try and get away with it. It's a mess, yeah. You set yourself up for a mess when you have so many different agendas. You get a mess if Vettel is ordered to stay behind and they agree not to compete. You get a mess if Vettel disobeys and overtakes. So, I just say, enjoy it. Whatever you get, you may as well say, "ha, that's fun, I can't believe he did that, I bet this will get interesting."

I understand where you're coming from, though. I see how this can all be frustrating for F1 fans to have this situation, and I can see why a lot of the frustration would be directed toward Vettel. I think that's valid enough, even if I'm not really in agreement.

I don't know. It's interesting. I think I like it because it's interesting, even if it's interesting in a not-so-nice way. The quality of my Sundays would be lesser without Sebastian Vettel, so, hey, give me Vettel. Same would be said about a lot of the drivers and teams, of course, not just him.

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Welcome to GPToday!

I'd offer that Vettel is a good guy away from the track, and a killer on it. Obviously, personal opinions will vary.

I think what makes it so interesting is that there are different ways to be a champion. The title is one in its own way every single year. There are things Vettel does that other drivers wouldn't. There are things Vettel does that other drivers just can't do. And I think the same goes if you replace Vettel with the names of any of the other champions. To me, that's great. Some think that you shouldn't cross the line; others only care about the lines they cross first. Those different approaches are the main reason we still have drivers and not autonomous racing cars, I think. It makes it interesting to say, "yeah, Vettel would do that to win, Alonso would do this, Button would do that, in Hamilton's year he had to do that, but Räikkönen won it this way." Whether I like Vettel's move or not, I like that it happened because it was different. It was exciting. Things can be exciting and wrong simultaneously, though I'm indifferent as to whether or not it was wrong.

Does being a World Champion excuse Vettel from every wrongdoing, should he commit any? Of course not. But I don't think any wrongdoing excuses the lack of recognition Vettel's gotten for his accomplishments. I'd hate to think I was alive to see the driver of the generation and spent the entire time trying to argue he was anything else (which isn't to say Vettel is or isn't...just that he could be when this is all through...)

To me, F1's just fun, and people can take it with varying degrees of seriousness. I totally respect your view, Jean-Pierre, and the views of others that there are certain actions that really challenge a sport, and certain things more important than winning. Still, I enjoy the fact that, in F1, they can test those limits without consequence. It's everything you couldn't see in real life. I think that's what makes it great, that someone can try and get away with it. It's a mess, yeah. You set yourself up for a mess when you have so many different agendas. You get a mess if Vettel is ordered to stay behind and they agree not to compete. You get a mess if Vettel disobeys and overtakes. So, I just say, enjoy it. Whatever you get, you may as well say, "ha, that's fun, I can't believe he did that, I bet this will get interesting."

I understand where you're coming from, though. I see how this can all be frustrating for F1 fans to have this situation, and I can see why a lot of the frustration would be directed toward Vettel. I think that's valid enough, even if I'm not really in agreement.

I don't know. It's interesting. I think I like it because it's interesting, even if it's interesting in a not-so-nice way. The quality of my Sundays would be lesser without Sebastian Vettel, so, hey, give me Vettel. Same would be said about a lot of the drivers and teams, of course, not just him.

beautiful

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Welcome to GPToday!

I'd offer that Vettel is a good guy away from the track, and a killer on it. Obviously, personal opinions will vary.

I think what makes it so interesting is that there are different ways to be a champion. The title is one in its own way every single year. There are things Vettel does that other drivers wouldn't. There are things Vettel does that other drivers just can't do. And I think the same goes if you replace Vettel with the names of any of the other champions. To me, that's great. Some think that you shouldn't cross the line; others only care about the lines they cross first. Those different approaches are the main reason we still have drivers and not autonomous racing cars, I think. It makes it interesting to say, "yeah, Vettel would do that to win, Alonso would do this, Button would do that, in Hamilton's year he had to do that, but Räikkönen won it this way." Whether I like Vettel's move or not, I like that it happened because it was different. It was exciting. Things can be exciting and wrong simultaneously, though I'm indifferent as to whether or not it was wrong.

Does being a World Champion excuse Vettel from every wrongdoing, should he commit any? Of course not. But I don't think any wrongdoing excuses the lack of recognition Vettel's gotten for his accomplishments. I'd hate to think I was alive to see the driver of the generation and spent the entire time trying to argue he was anything else (which isn't to say Vettel is or isn't...just that he could be when this is all through...)

To me, F1's just fun, and people can take it with varying degrees of seriousness. I totally respect your view, Jean-Pierre, and the views of others that there are certain actions that really challenge a sport, and certain things more important than winning. Still, I enjoy the fact that, in F1, they can test those limits without consequence. It's everything you couldn't see in real life. I think that's what makes it great, that someone can try and get away with it. It's a mess, yeah. You set yourself up for a mess when you have so many different agendas. You get a mess if Vettel is ordered to stay behind and they agree not to compete. You get a mess if Vettel disobeys and overtakes. So, I just say, enjoy it. Whatever you get, you may as well say, "ha, that's fun, I can't believe he did that, I bet this will get interesting."

I understand where you're coming from, though. I see how this can all be frustrating for F1 fans to have this situation, and I can see why a lot of the frustration would be directed toward Vettel. I think that's valid enough, even if I'm not really in agreement.

I don't know. It's interesting. I think I like it because it's interesting, even if it's interesting in a not-so-nice way. The quality of my Sundays would be lesser without Sebastian Vettel, so, hey, give me Vettel. Same would be said about a lot of the drivers and teams, of course, not just him.

First of all, welcome to the forum!

Back to the topic, none of the champions I mentionned would cheat of back stab a team mate or an opponent. It is not fair to put these crimes in the same category as any other things a champion in any sport would do to win. Most great champions (but Shumacher) just do not act this way.

I only hope that it does not end like it did with Gilles and another back staber, Pironi.

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[quote name='Jean-Pierre' timestamp='1365002189' post='353866']
"Nice men don't win"

that is somewhat arguable IMO.

The best hockey player who ever lived, Wayne Gretzky, was a gentleman off teh ice but a killer on the ice in the way that he always found a way to beat the opponent,not by cheating or fist fighting, but with incredible plays.

Joe Montana, in my book, one of the best quater back of all time, was the same, a gentleman off the field but a killer when he played. It woulds have been unthinkable for him to cheat of backstab a team mate or an opponent.

George St-Pierre, ultimate fighting world champion, is the same.

[b]I would add that neither Fernando, Button nor any other F1 champion I can think of (except the Cheater, of course) could cheat or backstab a team mate or opponent like Baby Shum did.[/b]
[/quote]

Let me disabuse you of that notion. Here is a clip of Alonso (and Hamilton too) completely disregarding both explicit and implicit team instructions to disadvantage their team mate. Other drivers, including Senna, have done things equally as bad as Schumi (and in your opinion, Vettel) to their opponents and team mates.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWJCGInsVUs[/media]

By all means think Vettel is a bad guy or a bad sportsman if sport is more interesting to you when viewed in a sort of binary way with goodies and baddies, but nobody has the right to rewrite history even to suit their own narrative.

Personally, I would just accept the good things people do and the bad as the result of being complex individuals in a very complex world. You don't have to make absolute judgements in most cases. Senna's charity work does not automatically excuse his less ethical moments in a racing car, and his less ethical moments in a racing car do not diminish his charity work. You can view them independently and come to a balanced view of what you think about someone. I think Senna was a fantastic human being in almost every sense, but often his tactics and actions in his career were disgraceful from a sporting POV. So what? The apparent contradiction does not keep me awake at night. People are complex. Deal with it!

I choose Senna because he was a driver with the most obvious disconnect between on and off track persona, and shows us how our view can be far too narrow at times. You can do exactly the same with Alonso, Vettel and Schumi or anybody. Does Schumi parking at rascasse mean he was a bad person and not by all other appearances a thoroughly decent family man? Again, being a good family man doesn't mean you can't think he was a less than clean sportsman at times (or a "cheat" if you want to be emotive) but at least puts that into some kind of perspective where it immediately becomes less important and our opinions become much more complex, and reflect the complexity of people. As much as F1 is a "show" it's really much healthier to perceive the drivers as actual people rather than just actors there for our amusement, at least if you actually want to be engaging with it in a realistic way.

Now of course, everybody draws the line at different points, where they will say that somebody cannot redeem themselves any more (you could go from the worst crimes to telling white lies). But if you are drawing that line at what Vettel has done (disobeying a team order or "backstabbing" a team mate) then if you want to be consistent you have to include a lot of other drivers and human beings generally, because you are using an incredibly high standard of judgement.

Final thing to say is: there are lots of apparently worthless, or detestable, or annoying people in the world. From murderers and rapists to benefit cheats to creationists to people who chew loudly. I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would use up too much of their negative energy disliking an F1 driver, who almost always are adding positively to society one way or another. Spend your contempt wisely in life there are plenty who deserve it, and none of them are F1 drivers easy targets though they may be.

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I used "one" instead of "won" in my last post. I just wanted to point it out because it's super embarrassing.

What isn't super embarrassing is George's post, since it is a good one.

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Good post George.

One cannot forget that to stand on the shoulders of giants, one has to step on them to do that. Not saying that it's fair or just, but sometimes it just is.

Hating Vettel is easy now that he is the most successful of the current crop of drivers, never mind that many find his personality endearing and many others also find him irritating. Remember also (if you don't like him) that if the odds are so stacked in his favour for victories and championships, that the victory will ever be so much sweeter for the underdog that will eventually dethrone him sooner or later. That's the beauty of sport, and also of technology. I refer you to the story of Alonso and Schumacher in 2006 and the Brawn phoenix rising from the ashes of Honda circa 2009. For such protagonists to arise, the antagonists must be of significant worth.

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I can't wait until we go back to the good old days of F1 where the teams top dog would have a car issue, drive back to the pit and have the other driver give up his car so the top driver could still score some points.

Or the days where to win a championship you just ran your biggest rival off the road in the last race. Schumi does it and people call him a horrible cheater and loathsome person. Senna and Prost do it to each other two years in a row and Senna is called the greatest driver of all time and Prost is the Professor. Double standards much?!

In the end no F1 Champion really cares what other people think, they have the money, they have great family and their job was what they loved doing. Not really anything more you can ask for I would say.

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Let me disabuse you of that notion. Here is a clip of Alonso (and Hamilton too) completely disregarding both explicit and implicit team instructions to disadvantage their team mate. Other drivers, including Senna, have done things equally as bad as Schumi (and in your opinion, Vettel) to their opponents and team mates. This is all nice and well, but the contexts are different for every example you give. Alonso and Hamilton had their fights and made their own rules and both accepted them; they were the bosses of this team. Do you really believe that Alonso and Hamilton would do to their team mate what Vettel did to Weber? If you do, I guess our perception of these two drivers differs diametrically. Shumacher never had a competitor in his team, the other guy was always at his service, he just played with other people’s life by driving dangerously and cheating - this is not my opinion, it is just a fact.

By all means think Vettel is a bad guy or a bad sportsman if sport is more interesting to you when viewed in a sort of binary way with goodies and baddies, but nobody has the right to rewrite history even to suit their own narrative. I beleive you oversimplify things a little here: Vettel disregarded a direct order against his team mate who was in a position to win the race, by attacking him by surprise and almost causing an accident.

It is not a question of good or bad, it is a question human competency and of what does a driver can do, within a team, to help that team win championships. Disrespecting Horner and his team mate is certainly not a step in this direction. So, of course, things is not all white or all black, but some issues are closer to black than to white, and to dismiss this fact by saying 1) that other would have done the same - never mind others, this is Vettel we are talking about, in this precise context, and 2) that an issue is to complex to be able for one to have an clear opinion towards one side against the other is a little naive IMHO.

Personally, I would just accept the good things people do and the bad as the result of being complex individuals in a very complex world. You don't have to make absolute judgements in most cases. Senna's charity work does not automatically excuse his less ethical moments in a racing car, and his less ethical moments in a racing car do not diminish his charity work. You can view them independently and come to a balanced view of what you think about someone. I think Senna was a fantastic human being in almost every sense, but often his tactics and actions in his career were disgraceful from a sporting POV. So what? The apparent contradiction does not keep me awake at night. People are complex. Deal with it! Thank you for your suggestion, I will try!

People might be complex, but it is not a reason to generalise this issue by saying others could have done the same in this precise context - this what you are saying, right?

I choose Senna because he was a driver with the most obvious disconnect between on and off track persona, and shows us how our view can be far too narrow at times. You can do exactly the same with Alonso, Vettel and Schumi or anybody. Does Schumi parking at rascasse mean he was a bad person and not by all other appearances a thoroughly decent family man? Again, being a good family man doesn't mean you can't think he was a less than clean sportsman at times (or a "cheat" if you want to be emotive) but at least puts that into some kind of perspective where it immediately becomes less important and our opinions become much more complex, and reflect the complexity of people. As much as F1 is a "show" it's really much healthier to perceive the drivers as actual people rather than just actors there for our amusement, at least if you actually want to be engaging with it in a realistic way. Emotivity, again, has nothing to do with this, there is a simple situation, recognise by most for what it is, and only a Vettel fan could deny the facts. I beleive it is not a question of opinion at all in this case - Vettel apologised, and he would not have done so if he were not in fault.

Now of course, everybody draws the line at different points, where they will say that somebody cannot redeem themselves any more (you could go from the worst crimes to telling white lies). But if you are drawing that line at what Vettel has done (disobeying a team order or "backstabbing" a team mate) then if you want to be consistent you have to include a lot of other drivers and human beings generally, because you are using an incredibly high standard of judgement.

By the way I'm not demonising him at all, he could very well be one of my favorite in a few years, but he made a mistake and it is absurd to deny it or trying to justify it using questionable comparisons.

Final thing to say is: there are lots of apparently worthless, or detestable, or annoying people in the world. From murderers and rapists to benefit cheats to creationists to people who chew loudly. I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would use up too much of their negative energy disliking an F1 driver, who almost always are adding positively to society one way or another. Spend your contempt wisely in life there are plenty who deserve it, and none of them are F1 drivers easy targets though they may be. Again, one can try to justify Vettel with such arguments, but it is necessary to see things for what they are and not try to loose the issue in vague (I don't want to be rude, but I really think it is) philosophical theory.

.

Please see my answers above. And I'm sorry in advance for my English, since it is not my first language.

In conclusion, Vettel made a major mistake and you are going to have to deal with it.

Finally, I just hope this won't end like the Villeneuve-Pironi story, the only one really comparable to this one IMO. MW is not a pushover and he will want retribution

Edited by Jean-Pierre

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Massa,

I understand your point that vettel brings interest to the game for you; however, I would exchange him for another Hamilton (more talented imo) who brings another kind of excitement!

Edited by Jean-Pierre

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All big drivers once went through this hate phase. So did all the latest big F1 names if you stop to think about it. Everybody loved Lewis, then everybody hated Lewis. Fernando was awesome and he defeated Schumacher and then people got bored of him. Schumacher won 7 titles and... wait, no, nobody ever loved Schumacher except the germans. lol

Now seriously, it feels like achieving any sort of success is a problem to most people. You are an underdog, people don't expect you winning but you go and work hard for it and become a champion and suddenly you are an idol to everybody. You do it twice, you become an arrogant idiot. People just seem to lose the connection with the same driver they liked as soon as him winning becomes predictable. Not really a problem with the driver per se, to me.

I can name one driver who didn't suffer this hate-fever recently. Maybe for one or two races but not for long. Jenson. And that's only because he only had a real chance for THAT SEASON. If he had won a second championship, he'd be damned to be hated like everybody else.

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Yeah, that's the funny thing with success. People will complain about Schumacher's dominance, then rave on and on to their grandchildren about how they were alive to see him break all those records. :P

Ah, well. I understand Jean-Pierre's viewpoint, but personally, I'm just ready to get to the Chinese Grand Prix and figure out who we're all upset with after that one. :)

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Ah, well. I understand Jean-Pierre's viewpoint, but personally, I'm just ready to get to the Chinese Grand Prix and figure out who we're all upset with after that one. smile.png

You for being bald, but still a hit with the ladies sad.png

Edited by Grabthaw the Hammerslayer

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You for being bald, but still a hit with the ladies sad.png

Neither of those things applies to me, so don't be too upset. :lol:

I think you'd have to merge Andrés and Ben to get a GPT poster who was in both of those categories.

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Neither of those things applies to me, so don't be too upset. laugh.png

I think you'd have to merge Andrés and Ben to get a GPT poster who was in both of those categories.

smile.png My apologies Eric. I'm going senile. I looked at your post and it said Andres in my head....

Actually its not the first time I mistook someone for Andres.... there was that occasion in a Sao Paolo night club.... it was dark, I was drunk..... sad.png:)

Edited by Grabthaw the Hammerslayer

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smile.png My apologies Eric. I'm going senile. I looked at your post and it said Andres in my head....

Actually its not the first time I mistook someone for Andres.... there was that occasion in a Sao Paolo night club.... it was dark, I was drunk..... sad.pngsmile.png

:lol:

So young Seb says he'll ignore team orders again.....

Discuss....

It doesn't surprise me at all that he would. The WDC has been decided by very small margins most seasons since 2006 (2009 and 2011 were the only ones in that time frame that did not go to the final round, I believe).

The fact he'd say that publicly, however, is interesting.

Reminds me of the NASCAR driver who threw a huge block once on the final lap of a race. It caused a huge wreck that sent two dozen fans to the hospital as parts flew into the grandstands. In his interview, he said he'd make the same move in the very next race if he had to. Surprising that he would? No. Surprising that he wouldn't see how stupid it was to say that out loud? Well, he's a NASCAR driver, so I guess not, actually. :D

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Vettel would make a good show in the wwf. Webber showed class ignoring his comments.

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