Kati

Renault Under Investigation?

600 posts in this topic

Ok let's pretend it was Piquet's idea, now how they explain Alonso's low fuel load and weird strategy? how they explain NP perfect timing acting by himself? how they explain the Team silence after one of their drivers crashed intentionally to alter the race? they knew he was thinking about it and went he did it, why they didn't talked to the FIA about it, besides that if this was like this NP is one of the must inteligent person in the whole world, he should be in F1 maybe not driving but he is great at calculating strategies.

We weren't talking about the specifics of the case in terms of who has done what, we were talking about the trial itself and what can be proved or not, and the effect of testimony and so on. It doesn't make much sense for the FIA to offer immunity in return for testimony of what happened unless it is vital for proving their case, at least to me and Paul it doesn't. I mean, it was already farcical that Piquet had immunity, if Symonds gets it too it really makes the verdict and trial absurd (which is the norm for an FIA trial like this).

you know what? they have more than enough evidence and that is what makes this even more strange, first the have sworn statement by Piquet Jr, they have the Unusual telemetry data, they have the unusual Alonso strategy, they have the unusual radio conversation, they have the unusual calling to pit out of time and the unusual respond to the engineer who thought it was a wierd call, besides that they have a confession in the words of PS "It was Piquet's idea" and the other confession in the word FB "If I tell you to go and rob a Bank and you do it, you were the one who finally made the decision" if I were Max I wouldn't wait unitl monday.

The funny thing is that they wouldn't have anywhere near enough evidence (from what we know) without Symonds confession that a "conversation" took place.

Unusual strategy can be explained away (you say "unusual" Renault say "aggressive"), odd telemetry doesn't support the case against Renault that Piquet alleges (i.e. "they told me to crash"), all it shows is an odd telemetry when he crashed which means he probably did crash deliberately, but it doesn't have any bearing on whether he did it of his own accord or under orders (without the "conversation" being accepted as fact it would mean nothing). The radio conversation is again, not enough to brand Renault cheaters, which has a massive implication.

The only thing which is solid is Symonds interview where he admitted having a conversation about it. If he'd just denied everything from the start then all those other things wouldn't be enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, frankly I think Renault will get away with it. The evidence is slim:

  • One confession from someone who Renault will say was feeling bitter after being sacked
  • A comment from Pat that Nelson mentioned it, but it was not taken seriously
  • Some telemetry that shows the crash was deliberate

Renault's defence that Nelson did it himself would be hard to counter - there is a confession and proof from telemetry.

Proof of Renault's involvement - nothing to go on.

In a fit of pique Max may try to penalise Renault, but if they have sharp lawyers it will get chucked out on appeal on the basis of no evidence. Which ultimately will only make Piquet look silly - I can't see how he was ever going to come out of this well. Esp. when Renault then sue him and his father for defamation :D Flav/Pat may well get booted out but not straight away, moved sideways a la Ron Dennis.

Did they do it - sure as chips are chips, but proving it will be tricky unless there is some hidden evidence that has not come to light, hence no doubt the immunity offer to Pat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, frankly I think Renault will get away with it. The evidence is slim:

  • One confession from someone who Renault will say was feeling bitter after being sacked
  • A comment from Pat that Nelson mentioned it, but it was not taken seriously
  • Some telemetry that shows the crash was deliberate

Renault's defence that Nelson did it himself would be hard to counter - there is a confession and proof from telemetry.

Proof of Renault's involvement - nothing to go on.

In a fit of pique Max may try to penalise Renault, but if they have sharp lawyers it will get chucked out on appeal on the basis of no evidence. Which ultimately will only make Piquet look silly - I can't see how he was ever going to come out of this well. Esp. when Renault then sue him and his father for defamation :D Flav/Pat may well get booted out but not straight away, moved sideways a la Ron Dennis.

Did they do it - sure as chips are chips, but proving it will be tricky unless there is some hidden evidence that has not come to light, hence no doubt the immunity offer to Pat.

Eloquently put as ever. I think they instructed Piquet to crash too, it seems like the most likely explanation. I just don't think that on the evidence that I know of I could find them guilty. The implications of doing that are quite severe, and even though the WMSC only has to rule in favour of which story is most likely, I still don't think there is enough evidence linking the crash to an instruction from someone.

The court might find that there isn't enough evidence that Piquet was instructed to crash, but there is enough evidence that he crashed deliberately, and that Renault knew he crashed deliberately and didn't take any action against him. That wouldn't be bringing the sport into disrepute though.

In any event I imagine it will play out in a similar way as the 'Puma predicted, tbh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Mike:

Mmmh...tough call there. First, they have to actually prove (to FIA's standards) that there was a breach. I know that FIA is not exactly a court of law, so basically they can punish BMW for all this, or blame the Pope, or whatever suits their interests, who knows? But let's assume that they will try to follow certain logic. I can come with a fairly innocent explanation about all this that places most of the guilt on Piquet Jr.

*WARNING: I DON'T THINK THIS IS WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. THIS IS JUST A GEDANKEN EXPERIMENT!* Let's assume that the meeting went like this: Briatore and Pat had been tasting a rather good wine Trulli brought for all the teams. After a nightmarish qualifying session, they decide to get drunk. Already in a feisty mood, they called in Piquet, who enters trembling because he knows that his performance was just as good as Villeneuve's latest song.

FB says: "Ah, there you are mio bambino! You drive like a stronzo ah? We are screwed! *Hic* You know what would be good for the team now? If you would agree to sacrifice yourself! Har har har!".

PS: "Har har *hic* har"

NPJ: "Y-yes, Signore B-Briatore...do you mean I should crash the car to help Alonso?"

FB: *Hic* Har har har! Pat, this kiddo kills me! Yes, bambino! That would be good! That would help us all in fact...

PS: *drunk whisper* Even more so if you don't survive the crash

FB: HAR HAR HAR! Ahh Patrizio Simone! Let's drink to that!

NPJ, alreay terrorized by the whole situation not to mention that FB is starting to pull down his pants showing his infamous thong: Yes! Yes! I will do it!

PS, passing an arm around NPJ's shoulder and taking him apart: Ok, if you do it, make sure to do it in this corner, there are no cranes there so at least your death will be useful. By the way...I love you, man!

NPJ: Thank you, Mr.Symonds. I-I love you too!+

PS: No, man, I love you more!

NPJ: Yes, Sir. WHatever you say, Sir.

Next day the events unfold as told. FB and PS tell him to push (wow, some secret code for a crash...I bet no driver ever heard the phrase "keep pushing!"). Maybe at some moment FB recalls something about the meeting and asks Pat about it: "Do you think he took us seriously?" "Nahh, he can't be THAT stupid can he?"

Suddenly, Piquet crashes. FB, as stated, says something in the likes of: "**** me! He...he is not a driver!"

So what do we have as an evidence in that scenario? Alonso's weird strategy (which by the way, seems to have surprised some engineers, which hints that they were not aware of what was going on). Not much more. The meeting existed, they talked about NPJ crashing, FB said the things he said, they felt embarrassed, etc. If there is something that doesn't fit the evidence please let me know, but I think this can be a perfectly acceptable version (albeit highly unlikely)

*END OF GEDANKEN EXPERIMENT*

So, I don't think the case (at least from what we know) is already closed. Until the hearings, we are making wild guesses at best, and all the participants in this story seem to be engaged in personal vendettas and they are all unscrupulous b#####ds. The only exception could be Pat, but as Sean said, he will not betray his team probably.

All this is just to prove that they are a long way from getting a damning veredict (again, from what was disclosed to the press, maybe they have more), and perhaps the desperate offer for immunity to Pat is a sign of that. As NPJ statement only serves to accuse Pat directly (the one that "took him to a quiet corner" to tell him when and how to crash), if they can't convict Briatore, then they will have handed immunity to the only two persons they could actually have charged of any breach.

I don't think there is some kind of corporate responsability from Renault so far, except for the cover up. Even in that case, they were covering up what could have been at best a serious suspicion, but nothing else unless someone of the 3 guys involved gave more details. The same excuse Mosley gave on why he didn't act though he knew about this is the excuse that Renault and Nando could use. "Yeah, it seemed strange to us at the moment but what could we do? Go to the FIA and say: hey, I think we won because Piquet's crash was too much coincidence?" Why no other team acted? If it seemed suspicious for the team and FIA, same goes for the other teams.

As for the Spygate, Renault version, I think it was clear at the moment that it was fairly different from McLaren's case. We can go through the differences again if you like. In any case, I agree with you fundamentally that both cases deserved a punishment, though we might differ in how bad was each one and thus the corresponding punishment.

Now, before some members start with their anti Renault/anti Alonso hysteria: I don't think that is what happened. My personal feeling is that FB and PS either accepted NPJ or actually forced him to do it. In any case, they are fully responsibles and much to my chagrin, they should be dishonorably dismissed. Renault should be heavily fined and even, perhaps, banned from this championship at least. So far I can't see any responsibility from Nando, but I guess that the fact that all this will pretty much ruin his chances with Ferrari and keep him stuck to a team that will probably withdraw after the sentence is no light punishment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, frankly I think Renault will get away with it. The evidence is slim:

  • One confession from someone who Renault will say was feeling bitter after being sacked
  • A comment from Pat that Nelson mentioned it, but it was not taken seriously
  • Some telemetry that shows the crash was deliberate

Renault's defence that Nelson did it himself would be hard to counter - there is a confession and proof from telemetry.

Proof of Renault's involvement - nothing to go on.

In a fit of pique Max may try to penalise Renault, but if they have sharp lawyers it will get chucked out on appeal on the basis of no evidence. Which ultimately will only make Piquet look silly - I can't see how he was ever going to come out of this well. Esp. when Renault then sue him and his father for defamation :D Flav/Pat may well get booted out but not straight away, moved sideways a la Ron Dennis.

Did they do it - sure as chips are chips, but proving it will be tricky unless there is some hidden evidence that has not come to light, hence no doubt the immunity offer to Pat.

I personally believe that Renault as a firm should not be punished Renault goes far beyong a F1 team and this can affect Renault's image, I do think all personel involved in this should be punished, taken out of F1 forever (I know this won't apply to Alonso) but Renault IMO should not be punished I know the people for Renault, the firm/company were not aware of this plot but FB has his long history of cheating and he should be part of F1 until monday, Pat it is as responsible as FB and he should be punished too, no immunity for him, it is clear now for everybody they did this, but that thing about that immunity is hiding something maybe FIA has something bigger than the crashgate, who knows?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, frankly I think Renault will get away with it. The evidence is slim:

  • One confession from someone who Renault will say was feeling bitter after being sacked
  • A comment from Pat that Nelson mentioned it, but it was not taken seriously
  • Some telemetry that shows the crash was deliberate

Renault's defence that Nelson did it himself would be hard to counter - there is a confession and proof from telemetry.

Proof of Renault's involvement - nothing to go on.

In a fit of pique Max may try to penalise Renault, but if they have sharp lawyers it will get chucked out on appeal on the basis of no evidence. Which ultimately will only make Piquet look silly - I can't see how he was ever going to come out of this well. Esp. when Renault then sue him and his father for defamation :D Flav/Pat may well get booted out but not straight away, moved sideways a la Ron Dennis.

Did they do it - sure as chips are chips, but proving it will be tricky unless there is some hidden evidence that has not come to light, hence no doubt the immunity offer to Pat.

yep - it seems that all FIA can do would be to punish reno (Flav) for not telling FIA that jnr crashed straight after the incident. By saying nothing, they could be found guilty of covering it all up.

any final punishment will depend on how big a deal FIA can convince people that this is (in terms or reno guilt).

whether it was all cooked up by symmonds or flav is irrelevent, since it is unlikely to be proved.

Edited by adamstrags

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this is true, then NPJ won the battle http://www.totalf1.c...out_of_Renault/

Andres is right,

That was suicidal, a pathetic excuse for driving like a school girl.

All that mocking on Nando and Reno from my side was just for fun, but I actually felt pitty on Reno. They made that discession (if they really did) as a team, and that secret should have gone down with his grave, thats the difference between him and Micheal. The reason why Micheal is still respected despite a couple of ....you know. is simply because of the way he keeps it all within. Piquet got an extra half season to prove his worth, so he drove slowly because he knew he could blackmail Reno and expected them to keep him? Bloody hell...What a loser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Renault has announced that team boss Flavio Briatore and engineering chief Pat Symonds have parted company with the team and that it will "not dispute" the allegations of race-fixing when it appears before the World Motor Sport Council next week.

The team had been accused of asking driver Nelson Piquet to crash deliberately in order to cause a safety car period that would work to his team-mate Fernando Alonso's advantage. The Spaniard went on to win the race.

"The ING Renault F1 Team will not dispute the recent allegations made by the FIA concerning the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix," said a statement from the team.

"It also wishes to state that its managing director, Flavio Briatore and its executive director of engineering, Pat Symonds, have left the team.

"Before attending the hearing before the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on 21 September 2009, the team will not make any further comment."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Andres is right,

That was suicidal, a pathetic excuse for driving like a school girl.

All that mocking on Nando and Reno from my side was just for fun, but I actually felt pitty on Reno. They made that discession (if they really did) as a team, and that secret should have gone down with his grave, thats the difference between him and Micheal. The reason why Micheal is still respected despite a couple of ....you know. is simply because of the way he keeps it all within. Piquet got an extra half season to prove his worth, so he drove slowly because he knew he could blackmail Reno and expected them to keep him? Bloody hell...What a loser.

but you should also consider that Renault didn't keep the word it was giving to him to sign him for another season, they just gave him half of that, they were the fisrt who fail to mantain the agreement, of course he has to be bitter, and like we all know they didn't play fair to him but giving the best equipment to Alonso ( which in part it makes sense) but you can't ask for the nest of the result when you don't give the best you can give, even FA said that he fail to deliver because of the car he was driving and that he will have better result in the future, that is telling something and besides that I thought Piquet career was over when he was sack out of Renault, so why not let everything out of the bag? he went down and now they went down too, non of them played fair so non of them could be justified

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5562633,00.html

hmm..did you guys go through this?:eusa_think:

Interesting read.Makes one want to be one of those engineers!:D

There's nothing suspicious in the radio transcripts,or am I missing something??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sean will be gutted. This is not what you do if you're innocent. Nice bloke or not Pat Symonds has been involved in some shady doings before. Fuel rig filters, option 13 to name two. Looks like MB was right after all. Also looks like Sauber will be on the grid after all. Thought: did the mighty eyebrow know anything?

Wonder if Flabbio is still taking legal action against Piquet?

Edited by monza gorilla

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but you should also consider that Renault didn't keep the word it was giving to him to sign him for another season, they just gave him half of that, they were the fisrt who fail to mantain the agreement, of course he has to be bitter, and like we all know they didn't play fair to him but giving the best equipment to Alonso ( which in part it makes sense) but you can't ask for the nest of the result when you don't give the best you can give, even FA said that he fail to deliver because of the car he was driving and that he will have better result in the future, that is telling something and besides that I thought Piquet career was over when he was sack out of Renault, so why not let everything out of the bag? he went down and now they went down too, non of them played fair so non of them could be justified

From what I read, Flavio never promised him, but did give him a second chance, he did have more than enough time to prove, he could have atleast shown some speed even if didn't score any points. He had nothing to show, and he was shown the door. Any team boss would have done what Flavio did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sean will be gutted. This is not what you do if you're innocent. Nice bloke or not Pat Symonds has been involved in some shady doings before. Fuel rig filters, option 13 to name two. Looks like MB was right after all. Also looks like Sauber will be on the grid after all. Thought: did the mighty eyebrow know anything?

Wonder if Flabbio is still taking legal action against Piquet?

I have to admit, I'm quite surprised myself. Don't get me wrong, I know Reanult and indeed all the F1 teams are not averse to a bit of cheating, but I didn't think they were involved in this. As you say, though, it's not really the actions of innocent parties.

Looks like max is on the war path to exact revenge before he leaves office. I wonder if anyone else is on his list?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like max is on the war path to exact revenge before he leaves office. I wonder if anyone else is on his list?

Luca.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sean will be gutted. This is not what you do if you're innocent. Nice bloke or not Pat Symonds has been involved in some shady doings before. Fuel rig filters, option 13 to name two. Looks like MB was right after all. Also looks like Sauber will be on the grid after all. Thought: did the mighty eyebrow know anything?

Wonder if Flabbio is still taking legal action against Piquet?

The monobrow knew. Any other explanation is plain ridiculous.

I have to admit, I'm quite surprised myself. Don't get me wrong, I know Reanult and indeed all the F1 teams are not averse to a bit of cheating, but I didn't think they were involved in this. As you say, though, it's not really the actions of innocent parties.

I am surprised anyone is surprised after what Mclaren did. I am surprised anyone is stupid enough to believe that the only cheat in the sport ever was Michael Schumacher.

Looks like max is on the war path to exact revenge before he leaves office. I wonder if anyone else is on his list?

Again??

I don't get it. Max's explanation is reasonable - until they had a statement from Piquet, they had suspicions, but nothing to go on. Piquet is sacked - he spills the beans - Renault are screwed. Where does Max's quest for revenge fit into this??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nando's definately going to Ferrari next year but what will happen to Grosjean & Lucas Di Grassi??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Max! It's not Nando's, Flabbio's Bernie's, Max's, Monty's, Sato's, Ide's, Schumi's, Ralf's, Nick's, JV's, Mika's, Stig's, Hammond's, Clarkson's, Tiff's, Jesus' or Pat Symonds' fault he crashed!

shhh. it was kubeetza's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luca.

Luca proved to be stronger. That is why Max is in retreat but still shooting.

Edited by wapi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:angry: Ok now I getting annoyed but this, just like Mclaren did in the liegate putting full responsability in one person and ousting that person from the team to get a better image I would say in front to the FIA and a softer penalty, Renault just did the same, took out the main characters on this movie so who are they going to blame next monday if they are not part of the team anymore, Now I think the team should be punished for this, they should have done that before this not now, it just looks like they are taking the justice in their own hands, this should not aliviate the penalty they deserve, in fact by doing this they are providing a nice way out of this for those involved in this case and I don't like this modus operandis and FIA should do something about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another happy (?) ending like the McLaren's case. Renault took the damage limitation route and didn't wait for this dirty war to end. It would have been too damaging for their corporate image anyways no matter the outcome.

So, Flabby Flav is gone, Pat as well. Renault will either leave the sport already or have to endure a transitional stage that will probably mean they will be trounced by the STRs. I have as much faith in Prost as I have in Todt.

FIA will give a slap on the hand to Renault, Mosley will dance and drink and be merry and spanked, Alonso will have to wait until 2011 to drive for Ferrari probably, Briatore will conspire with Bernie and buy a couple more of football teams...and truth will be never come to light.

And, without truth, there is no justice. The sport will remain tainted like in McLaren's case, and we will have to endure Mosley and his mindless supporters saying that he got rid of cheating in sport, when obviously all he did was drive away the cheaters HE do not like, but all this does nothing to elliminate the unscrupulous ways in F1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now