Kati

Renault Under Investigation?

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The monobrow knew. Any other explanation is plain ridiculous.

Of course he knew, just look at how he now says that he leaves strategy to his engeneer, suddenly he is not into that anymore even when his fans know that he is a great part of that and no decision is made without asking him fisrt or at least that is what all of his fans believed adn made us believe too, I wonder how great is he now that is clear that is not a good car developer and now he not part of strategy planning eather?

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I am surprised anyone is surprised after what Mclaren did. I am surprised anyone is stupid enough to believe that the only cheat in the sport ever was Michael Schumacher.

Personally, I think there's a big difference between stealing a few docs, using movable floors, false fuel tanks, etc and actually planning to crash. Even if you think you're going to crash in a 'safe way', if that's possible, something could go horribly wrong.

I never said any such thing about cheating, in fact I said the opposite, if you had read my post.

Again??

I don't get it. Max's explanation is reasonable - until they had a statement from Piquet, they had suspicions, but nothing to go on. Piquet is sacked - he spills the beans - Renault are screwed. Where does Max's quest for revenge fit into this??

I don't believe anyone is stupid enough not to realise max has his own agenda :whistling::lol:

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This NPJ who is next to FB, just look at the way he looks at FB when he is shaking his hands, that spooky look is it enough evidence that this whole affair about the crashgate it is true.

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Well, one by one all the "old boys" of F1 are dropping out, and funnily enough they all had some history with Mad Max. I wonder who is next on the shit-list. Not that I blame Max for this of course, I am just sure he will be delighted with the result, impartial fellow that he is.

Anyway, it seems clear that something did go on and it did involve Flavio and Symonds, otherwise they would fight their case (even if Renault bosses didn't like it). Looks like Piquet "won" this one. I just hope the damage limitation exercise will prevent Renault from leaving the sport, it's better if they survive, even if in a weakened form.

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I just read the whole radio transcripts. Not a single hint of foul play umless you already think that they were guilty, in which case everything is a hint of conspiracy. Pat doesn't sounds sure on when the crash happened, Briatore seems concerned on NPJs health after the crash, and very angry afterwards ("my very ****ing disgrace, he's not a driver"), the "weird strategy" is explained as simply a case of too much tire degradation (something acknowledged by the engineers), nobody sounds too surprised with the strategy change which could mean that everybody knew about the alleged conspiracy or that there was none and it was just a natural switch of strategies for everybody.

I agree that if it was this innocent, Flav and Pat would still be around and NPJ's house would be full with lawyers. So something must have shown up. But it is not anything that "leaked" (Mosley has a severe leaking problem, btw). The transcripts are not damning at all. Telemetry only proves that NPJ was either idiotic, there was some problem with the car and/or telemetry or that he crashed on purpose, but is not enough to incriminate anybody else.

Again, we will never know the truth, it seems. I hope it is not the case. But that is what happens when nobody of the involved parties gives a Sh#t about the truth.

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I just read the whole radio transcripts. Not a single hint of foul play umless you already think that they were guilty, in which case everything is a hint of conspiracy. Pat doesn't sounds sure on when the crash happened, Briatore seems concerned on NPJs health after the crash, and very angry afterwards ("my very ****ing disgrace, he's not a driver"), the "weird strategy" is explained as simply a case of too much tire degradation (something acknowledged by the engineers), nobody sounds too surprised with the strategy change which could mean that everybody knew about the alleged conspiracy or that there was none and it was just a natural switch of strategies for everybody.

I agree that if it was this innocent, Flav and Pat would still be around and NPJ's house would be full with lawyers. So something must have shown up. But it is not anything that "leaked" (Mosley has a severe leaking problem, btw). The transcripts are not damning at all. Telemetry only proves that NPJ was either idiotic, there was some problem with the car and/or telemetry or that he crashed on purpose, but is not enough to incriminate anybody else.

Again, we will never know the truth, it seems. I hope it is not the case. But that is what happens when nobody of the involved parties gives a Sh#t about the truth.

Me too, never found evidence in the radio transcripts...yep..there must be something else going on, or simply Flavio and Pat departing must be for the damage limitation...lets see

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I just read the whole radio transcripts. Not a single hint of foul play umless you already think that they were guilty, in which case everything is a hint of conspiracy. Pat doesn't sounds sure on when the crash happened, Briatore seems concerned on NPJs health after the crash, and very angry afterwards ("my very ****ing disgrace, he's not a driver"), the "weird strategy" is explained as simply a case of too much tire degradation (something acknowledged by the engineers), nobody sounds too surprised with the strategy change which could mean that everybody knew about the alleged conspiracy or that there was none and it was just a natural switch of strategies for everybody.

I agree that if it was this innocent, Flav and Pat would still be around and NPJ's house would be full with lawyers. So something must have shown up. But it is not anything that "leaked" (Mosley has a severe leaking problem, btw). The transcripts are not damning at all. Telemetry only proves that NPJ was either idiotic, there was some problem with the car and/or telemetry or that he crashed on purpose, but is not enough to incriminate anybody else.

Again, we will never know the truth, it seems. I hope it is not the case. But that is what happens when nobody of the involved parties gives a Sh#t about the truth.

you talk about tire degradation but that was only true for them, nobody else had that problem to the point of thinking about a similar strategy, not those near him not those further back, this it makes sound logical to you but it is not.

Nobody was surprised about the change to a two stop strategy because that was the way to go, but what you are not seeing here is their reaction to the three stop strategy but you can see the reaction from at least one engineer to the fact that PS was calling FA to pit too early.

Anyways thay are guilty, they confessed they talked about it and it happened, what else do you need? they are out of the team for a reason and that is they are guilty, I've been right from the very beggining and I am right when I say that FA is also involved in this even if FIA don't do anything about it.

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I just read the whole radio transcripts. Not a single hint of foul play umless you already think that they were guilty, in which case everything is a hint of conspiracy.

...

Again, we will never know the truth, it seems. I hope it is not the case. But that is what happens when nobody of the involved parties gives a Sh#t about the truth.

I agree with you completely. My opinion is that mother Renault decided to play this way to limit PR damage. They bet problem will go away from media attention faster if the do not contest it. There also might be deal with FIA. We will know much better what was behind the scenes when official WMSC decision is published. Wording can be somewhere along the lines that "...there is hint but not proof of Renault as team doing anything wrong (theory that Piquet was singular idiot) but failed to report suspicious circumstances of the crash although they mmust have noted it when doing "after action review" of the race". Another posibility is that wording will be that "...Renault admited conspiracy, but as soon as internal investigation has shown what was going on, key employees were fired and steps have been taken to prevent such unfortunate events in the future. Renault SA as company is commited to fair play...".

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I agree with you completely. My opinion is that mother Renault decided to play this way to limit PR damage. They bet problem will go away from media attention faster if the do not contest it. There also might be deal with FIA. We will know much better what was behind the scenes when official WMSC decision is published. Wording can be somewhere along the lines that "...there is hint but not proof of Renault as team doing anything wrong (theory that Piquet was singular idiot) but failed to report suspicious circumstances of the crash although they mmust have noted it when doing "after action review" of the race". Another posibility is that wording will be that "...Renault admited conspiracy, but as soon as internal investigation has shown what was going on, key employees were fired and steps have been taken to prevent such unfortunate events in the future. Renault SA as company is commited to fair play...".

Renault would fight down to their last euro if they felt that Piquet's allegations were completely untrue. Most race-specific RT traffic is coded in plain language and despite Flabbio's foul-mouthed expletives, there is little of interest in the transcripts. In fact, dissing Nelson is probably all cover up anyway. I know the system at Renault well enough to understand that Briatore and Symonds were proved to be telling porkie pies to senior managers and were sanctioned for it. I don't believe they acted unilaterally either, Certain heads at Renault Sport may have to roll too. I do believe the 'crash' was engineered from the pit wall and now Renault are in damage limitation mode. I rather think Alonso won't get away clean either. We could be looking at a a 100m euro fine and a 10-year ban at least, for the team, plus a permanent ban for young Nelson and perhaps something similar for Nando.

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The tickers on various news channels said Renault didn't contest the allegations(now no longer allegations, but facts). I'm happy that they're guilty. It's a huge relief that there are cheats other than everybody's whipping boys Ferrari. No sympathy for Flabio.

Will it have any bearings on last year's Singapore GP results, & by extension the championships?

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Renault would fight down to their last euro if they felt that Piquet's allegations were completely untrue. Most race-specific RT traffic is coded in plain language and despite Flabbio's foul-mouthed expletives, there is little of interest in the transcripts. In fact, dissing Nelson is probably all cover up anyway. I know the system at Renault well enough to understand that Briatore and Symonds were proved to be telling porkie pies to senior managers and were sanctioned for it. I don't believe they acted unilaterally either, Certain heads at Renault Sport may have to roll too. I do believe the 'crash' was engineered from the pit wall and now Renault are in damage limitation mode. I rather think Alonso won't get away clean either. We could be looking at a a 100m euro fine and a 10-year ban at least, for the team, plus a permanent ban for young Nelson and perhaps something similar for Nando.

I think we will all be surprised with mild outcome of the WMSC on Monday/Tuesday. Damage to the sport has already been done, no punisment will take it away, so it would be reasonable for FIA and CVC not to lose another team. Major blow will be dealt towards Briatiore and Symonds. Alonso might be punished for not reporting wrong doing when he found out, but he was not summoned to WMSC?!? NPJ was promised immunity, but he might face criminal charges in civil legal system as he was the only one to actually admit fixing race. Others have circumstantial evidence...

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Well, looking back (at youtube) and seeing Piquet's crash again, I must say... he was excellent!

I don't think he ever drove that car as masterfully as he crashed it!

Too bad to see Flav leave, not because I like (which I don't) but because he is a classic F1 figure!

The paddock won't be the same without him!

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Renault would fight down to their last euro if they felt that Piquet's allegations were completely untrue. Most race-specific RT traffic is coded in plain language and despite Flabbio's foul-mouthed expletives, there is little of interest in the transcripts. In fact, dissing Nelson is probably all cover up anyway. I know the system at Renault well enough to understand that Briatore and Symonds were proved to be telling porkie pies to senior managers and were sanctioned for it. I don't believe they acted unilaterally either, Certain heads at Renault Sport may have to roll too. I do believe the 'crash' was engineered from the pit wall and now Renault are in damage limitation mode. I rather think Alonso won't get away clean either. We could be looking at a a 100m euro fine and a 10-year ban at least, for the team, plus a permanent ban for young Nelson and perhaps something similar for Nando.

I won't be counting on this, IMO F1 isn't worth watching without Alonso, I need a favorite driver and a antagonist to blame for everything, in this case Alonso, I would wonly want this punishment for him if he is really trying to go to Ferrari otherwise I want him to stay in F1 until he can not resist more humiliation.

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The tickers on various news channels said Renault didn't contest the allegations(now no longer allegations, but facts). I'm happy that they're guilty. It's a huge relief that there are cheats other than everybody's whipping boys Ferrari. No sympathy for Flabio.

Will it have any bearings on last year's Singapore GP results, & by extension the championships?

I said the whole race result has to be deleted because everybody had a different finish place because of this, Massa should be the new Champion after that crash everything was affected in the race so it makes no sense just to eliminate Renault results.

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Well, looking back (at youtube) and seeing Piquet's crash again, I must say... he was excellent!

I don't think he ever drove that car as masterfully as he crashed it!

Too bad to see Flav leave, not because I like (which I don't) but because he is a classic F1 figure!

The paddock won't be the same without him!

that's exactly the result we want.

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My ideas on what will happen to Renault and Alonso, as well as an evaluation on the evidence so far and the strength of FIA's case are explained with better English and more coherent reasoning from James Allen at his blog. Saves me a lot of typing, and saves you a lot of worthless reading.

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I just read the whole radio transcripts. Not a single hint of foul play umless you already think that they were guilty, in which case everything is a hint of conspiracy. Pat doesn't sounds sure on when the crash happened, Briatore seems concerned on NPJs health after the crash, and very angry afterwards ("my very ****ing disgrace, he's not a driver"), the "weird strategy" is explained as simply a case of too much tire degradation (something acknowledged by the engineers), nobody sounds too surprised with the strategy change which could mean that everybody knew about the alleged conspiracy or that there was none and it was just a natural switch of strategies for everybody.

I haven't listened, I'll take our esteemed word for it, Sir, as I wouldn't have expected anything to show up on radio. Well, you would hope there would be nothing said on the radio.

I agree that if it was this innocent, Flav and Pat would still be around and NPJ's house would be full with lawyers. So something must have shown up. But it is not anything that "leaked" (Mosley has a severe leaking problem, btw). The transcripts are not damning at all. Telemetry only proves that NPJ was either idiotic, there was some problem with the car and/or telemetry or that he crashed on purpose, but is not enough to incriminate anybody else.

Again, we will never know the truth, it seems. I hope it is not the case. But that is what happens when nobody of the involved parties gives a Sh#t about the truth.

Agreed. Telemetry without data from previous crashes is probably fairly inconsequential.

Mosley doesn't have a severe leaking problem, I imagine it was done on purpose :lol:

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Mosley doesn't have a severe leaking problem, I imagine it was done on purpose :lol:

Oh, I wasn't talking about the leaking of info to the press :whistling:

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Basically all been said - so I'll say it all again :)

I agree that the transcript isn't as damning as it could be. The only slightly strange thing is Symmonds insistence that they bring in Alonso earlier than planned, and that's hardly incriminating.

IMO the telemetry does show that Jnr crashed on purpose - but again that doesn't incriminate anyone but himself.

So this is what happened for me...

Max said that the FIA was 'suspicious' right after the race. You can bet that those suspicions led to the asking of questions to various renault people including Piquet. Of course Jnr wouldn't have said anything at that point. The whole purpose of the crash was to retain his tenuous position in Renault, but the seed was planted.

Either Max told him 'If you ever want to chat about Singapore, my door willl be open' or Jnr + Dad noted themselves that they had something Max wanted or probably both.

So then what happens...

Well - when Jnr is told he will unlikely be racing for Renault any more he threatens Flavio in a vain, last ditch attempt to save his seat. At this point Flavio's arrogance gets the better of him and he reaches the decision that Jnr's got nothing that he can make stick (this is where the blackmail allegation comes from).

So then Jnr gets the official boot and either he heads straight for Max's office or Max asks gently if there's anything he wants to say now he's out of Renault - either way Max and Jnr get together and have a good chinwag with the support of Jnr's daddy.

Out it comes and although Flav is correct in that no evidence exists that can prove any guilt on his part (at this point it ceases to matter if he is guilty or not), he neglected to realise that in F1 mud sticks and that mud thrown by ex-driver + FIA = Reault bosses asking him to take the fall.

I think Renault realised that with Max on the war path, the best thing to do was serve Falvio up for lunch - it would do them more damge to fight his corner for him even if they proved his lack of guilt (they could never categorically prove his innocence either and so their brand image would be damaged whatever the outcome). Thus Flav and Symmonds depart.

Simple really - and the silly thing is that through out the whole escapade we've been discussing if Flav / Symmonds where guilty. Actually that doesn't matter - this is F1 after all.

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On the plus side, that means Hammy gets promoted to 2nd, which means Glock's actions in Brazil are irrelevant, so all the crap conspiracy theorists can shut up about last year's WDC. I'm sure they won't of course.....

As for the punishment? A harsh punishment is wishful thinking. But it will be more than a slap on the wrist I think. Even Max would find it hard to do that, and he's already let them off once recently for their part in the spying debacle. I expect a large-ish fine, no punishment for Alonso, a lifetime ban for the protagonists. If Renault are banned for any length of time we can probably assume that means Renault HQ was going to pull the plug anyway.

Either way I find this quite astonishing. Makes the McLaren saga look trivial by comparison.

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I just read the whole radio transcripts. Not a single hint of foul play umless you already think that they were guilty, in which case everything is a hint of conspiracy. Pat doesn't sounds sure on when the crash happened, Briatore seems concerned on NPJs health after the crash, and very angry afterwards ("my very ****ing disgrace, he's not a driver"), the "weird strategy" is explained as simply a case of too much tire degradation (something acknowledged by the engineers), nobody sounds too surprised with the strategy change which could mean that everybody knew about the alleged conspiracy or that there was none and it was just a natural switch of strategies for everybody.

I agree that if it was this innocent, Flav and Pat would still be around and NPJ's house would be full with lawyers. So something must have shown up. But it is not anything that "leaked" (Mosley has a severe leaking problem, btw). The transcripts are not damning at all. Telemetry only proves that NPJ was either idiotic, there was some problem with the car and/or telemetry or that he crashed on purpose, but is not enough to incriminate anybody else.

Again, we will never know the truth, it seems. I hope it is not the case. But that is what happens when nobody of the involved parties gives a Sh#t about the truth.

Geez, seriously? Aren't radio transmissions available to the FOM, so obviously they won't say that anywhere. Flav Pat NP and Darth Alonso plan it. Voldemort gets his win. NP gets to keep driving and crashing. FB and PS get pats on the back for getting Renault back to winning ways. The truth is f#$king obvious.

I haven't listened, I'll take our esteemed word for it, Sir, as I wouldn't have expected anything to show up on radio. Well, you would hope there would be nothing said on the radio.

Agreed. Telemetry without data from previous crashes is probably fairly inconsequential.

Mosley doesn't have a severe leaking problem, I imagine it was done on purpose :lol:

Oh telemetry could prove that Michael Schumacher crashed on purpose, everyone loved telemetry back then. It can prove anything then.

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Geez, seriously? Aren't radio transmissions available to the FOM, so obviously they won't say that anywhere. Flav Pat NP and Darth Alonso plan it. Voldemort gets his win. NP gets to keep driving and crashing. FB and PS get pats on the back for getting Renault back to winning ways. The truth is f#$king obvious.

Mmhh...the nick is there but the wits are not...

You (and most others that think like you, if I might say so in your defense) are suffering from what Umberto Eco called "cogitus interruptus". The truth is ****ing obvious? You are cheating, Monsieur. You make no real point on how you get to those conclussions. The "leakings" as well as Piquet's statements induced everybody to believe that there was something damning in the transmissions. Why add them as evidence if not? If the transmission was regarded by everybody as "obviously" not revealing, then they are worth as much as evidence as Briatore's thongs, or Lincoln's Gettysburg's Address. My point was: none of the presented evidence pointed even remotely to a conspiracy so far. Not even the sacking of Pat and Flavio, to be honest, thanks to Mosley's urgency to warrant immunity to anybody that might point a finger against Flavio. FIA detsroyed their own case, whether perfectly convincing and true or not. This does not mean that Flavio, or Pat, or Nando, or Renault, or Hitler are innocent(we haven't brought HItler so far, I thought you would appreciate the reference). This just shows that so far not a single convincing proof of conspiracy has been produced. Worse than McLaren saga, somebody said? Only if we believe FIA and Piquet. And the more the saga unfolds, the less convinced I am about the conspiracy.

Oh telemetry could prove that Michael Schumacher crashed on purpose, everyone loved telemetry back then. It can prove anything then.

Again, it proved (and not beyond reasonable doubt) that he did it on purpose. Just like now it proves that NPJ (and not beyon reasonable doubt) did it on purpose. It wasn't used back then as an argument of conspiracy. You can't use it here, either. Feeble argument.

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Mmhh...the nick is there but the wits are not...

You (and most others that think like you, if I might say so in your defense) are suffering from what Umberto Eco called "cogitus interruptus". The truth is ****ing obvious? You are cheating, Monsieur. You make no real point on how you get to those conclussions. The "leakings" as well as Piquet's statements induced everybody to believe that there was something damning in the transmissions. Why add them as evidence if not? If the transmission was regarded by everybody as "obviously" not revealing, then they are worth as much as evidence as Briatore's thongs, or Lincoln's Gettysburg's Address. My point was: none of the presented evidence pointed even remotely to a conspiracy so far. Not even the sacking of Pat and Flavio, to be honest, thanks to Mosley's urgency to warrant immunity to anybody that might point a finger against Flavio. FIA detsroyed their own case, whether perfectly convincing and true or not. This does not mean that Flavio, or Pat, or Nando, or Renault, or Hitler are innocent(we haven't brought HItler so far, I thought you would appreciate the reference). This just shows that so far not a single convincing proof of conspiracy has been produced. Worse than McLaren saga, somebody said? Only if we believe FIA and Piquet. And the more the saga unfolds, the less convinced I am about the conspiracy.

Again, it proved (and not beyond reasonable doubt) that he did it on purpose. Just like now it proves that NPJ (and not beyon reasonable doubt) did it on purpose. It wasn't used back then as an argument of conspiracy. You can't use it here, either. Feeble argument.

agree

the problem is that most people forget the old adage 'innocent until proven guilty'. when people are happy to believe any old muck simply on the basis that they don't like the target of said muck, then the witch trials begin. Don't get me wrong - I'm no Flavio fan, and if they did it then they should be banned, but nothing's been shown that proves they did anything. Just a whole lot of mud slinging and pointing of fingers. This is the state F1 justice under present management.

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