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Kati

Renault Under Investigation?

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Well, Piquet clearly had no choice whether to crash into the wall or not or he coulda lost his seat, so I see no reason why he should be punished.

There is always choice. He could refuse and report to FIA immediatelly. He is wealthy man, he would not end up eating from containers in Sao Paulo if he had lost seat at Renault. Threat to lose his job in exchange for his ethics should not have produced any doubt in his mind.

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Neither do I, but if FIA call this "a breach of unparalelled severity in the sport" either you act as if it is or you don't say it is so. As it comes out, they fail to deliver a fitting punishment for the crime. In fact, they failed to deliver any punishment at all besides what they would have gotten for a minor breach, except for the higher costs involved.

If I choose to believe that according to all this it is obvious that everybody but Piquet was innocent, there is nothing so far to contradict me.

Agreed - they could have at least docked points this season - or done a McLaren and removed only WCC points to avoid punishing drivers - or fined Renault massively - but they weren't after the drivers or Renault - they were intent on handing out the harshest penalty they could to Flav - which they did.

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thatd probably change championship result (not lewis felipe thing, but others), and it's also not fair to those drivers since they don't have anything to do with the Sh#t. had this been found out then they wouldve canceled race, probably. now makes no sense at all. surprises me though, that they didnt cut off renaults wcc points.

Cutting wcc points would mean financial penalty for Renault. Renault SA had probably threatened to pull out of F1 if fined. In exchange they had to promis to stay next 3 seasons. If they do not stay, some new evidence will suddenly pop up from nowhere proving that "conspiracy was much more widespread thus Renault has to be fined heavily and suspended ban activated".

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I have to say, I'm not too surprised by the outcome. I expected a suspended ban, which was what McLaren got at the first hearing and a fine. As Kati points out, they have got the fine, in a roundabout way, and it's probably a more beneficial way of doing it, I think. At least this way it should go towards safety in some way.

agreed, but the 'fine' isn't really a 'fine' now is it - and we don't know how much it'll total if anything at all.

There's no doubt the removal of Briatore and Symonds has helped alleviate some of the punishment. However, I am taking the leniency of the punishment (in light of the "a breach of unparalelled severity in the sport" comment) to mean that there is actually not much in the way of reliable evidence to prove there was a deliberate crash.

they did what was asked of them.

funny that.

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agreed, but the 'fine' isn't really a 'fine' now is it - and we don't know how much it'll total if anything at all.

Well, if you look at it that it's money Renault didn't want to pay, or were 'forced' to pay, then I suppose you could class it as a fine. Admittedly, though, we're not going to find out how much.

they did what was asked of them.

funny that.

Do I detect a hint of cynicism there ??? :lol:

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thatd probably change championship result (not lewis felipe thing, but others), and it's also not fair to those drivers since they don't have anything to do with the Sh#t. had this been found out then they wouldve canceled race, probably. now makes no sense at all. surprises me though, that they didnt cut off renaults wcc points.

the reality here is that the whole championship was affected by this race fixing incident and they didn't do anything about it, like I said the whole race result should be cancel because it is just impossible to know what

Heavily disappointed. Expected (& wanted) Renault & everyone from that race to be banned.

I didn't expected a heavy punishment for Renault and I knew Alonso would be kept aside on this.

Did he? - I never heard that - curious.

yes he did

Symonds was given a more lenient sentence after accepting his part in the conspiracy, as well as communicating his "eternal regret and shame" to the 26 members of the council.

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/319954/Suspended_ban_for_Renault/

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the reality here is that the whole championship was affected by this race fixing incident and they didn't do anything about it, like I said the whole race result should be cancel because it is just impossible to know what

nico would lose for example his p2 and he does not have anything to do with the whole s... i dont even like nico, but it is not fair. thats why it will remain so. also, its over one year, why do you even care? this is only leading to something because someone wants flavio out of business.

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I will await for the full version. This version sounds like all they wanted to do was punishing Briatore so they made up all this. Funny thing is that according to what we have so far (and no "shocking new revelations" came thorugh so far), they let Piquet (the only guy which is actualy guilty beyond reasonable doubt) get away with it. PS, who was either an accomplice by omision or the mastermind if they decide to believe everything Piquet said, gets a punishment of medium severity. And Flavio, whose connection was marginal by Piquet's own words, gets a lifetime ban. The proof of culpability? Because he denies it. So I guess that they would let him get away with this if he confessed? And Renault's ban suspended "unless they make a breach of comparable severity"? That is the same as letting them get away with no punishment whatsoever (except for the obvious expenses and blah...pocket money). Hey! I killed a man! Ok, you get a suspended jail sentence unless you kill somebody else in the next 2 years...

It makes no sense. I hope the full version will give us a clearer picture.

Yes, it still smells more like a personal vendetta than a serious investigation.

FB was the head of the team when that happened meaning he was responsible for EVERYTHING that happen in the team, but he not only was responsible, he was part of this, he knew about it and he didn't stop it, he left it happen, he accepted it, he covered it up and until now he is lieying about it, he didn't have the courage to face what he did, he is guilty and he was punished, I think it is a fear punishement.

About NPJ I don't know what part of Immunity you don't understand, he was not suppose to be punished for that, Alonso was supposed to be punished but he is one of the winners here, all this was done to make HIM win a race and EVRERYBODY knows he is involved in this too, but I know you would not agree to this here even when you know it is the way I say, you once again will ask for proof of this, just use your common sense that all you need.

About the sentence to the team I think it was the right decision because you want to punish the people who did this not just a name (Renault in this case) and the people who were blamed in this are not part of the team anymore, by giving a heavy fine to the team or exclusion from F1 a lot of innocent people will pay for something they didn't have anything to do with, now inside the team the person with the greatest amount of culpability is Alonso but neither you nor the FIA want to punish him, you beacuse you are a fan and FIA because they don't want to upset his fans and his presence is good for the sport and all that stuff but if we are going to be fear Alonso should be banned from F1 too.

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nico would lose for example his p2 and he does not have anything to do with the whole s... i dont even like nico, but it is not fair. thats why it will remain so. also, its over one year, why do you even care? this is only leading to something because someone wants flavio out of business.

But his second place ws not fear eather and that's my point probably he would have finished out of the points anyways without this crash, Alonso won an unfear race but the whole field was affected because of this, I believe that taking the win from Alonso only it would be unfear because hte rest of the field finished there for the same reason, so IMO there whole race should be nullified becuase nto doing this is not unly unfear but it is also giving a reward to those to fixed the race to win it.

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A 2 year ban if they're found guilty?? I guess tis fair trying to fix a race! So it was'nt quite Nelsinho's bad driving that made Nado win!

Oh & welcome back Fed Up, maure's missed you as he's been very quiet as of late!

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They've got off way to easy for my liking on this. These "suspended" things need to be sorted out. Just ban 'em anyway. In my opinion there is way too much evidence to say they are NOT guilty.

I know we don't want to lose another team, blah blah blah, but come on! F1 does not need this image, not now, not ever. If it means having once less cheating team on the grid in 2010, well so be it. In my mind Renault isn't a crucial aprt of F1. It's good to have another manufacturer, don't get me wrong, but they certainly arn't as valuable to the sport as Ferrari and McLaren are.

Come on FIA, bag up and chuck out the **** for the dump.

Perhaps I'm being too harsh here, after all, it is people's job at stake if Renault does get banned and it does seem very immoral for loads of people to potentially lose their jobs just because of what 3 right royal t*ats did (Flavio, Symonds and Piquet), but a team that has fixed a race (and potentially a championship) is total and utter BS. I don't have any sympathy for ANYONE at Renault. All this about Piquet saying "Well I was ordered too", well where is your common sense son? He's as guilty as Flavio and Symonds in this saga in my eyes.

If anyone should be feeling hard done by it is the fans who where at Singapore. After spending that money for tickets, hoping to see a race, all they have seen is a fixed, fake piece of **** play out. If I was a spectator at that race, I'd be expecting my money back. And Renault can pay me.

Best way to solve this is perhaps to DSQ Alonso from the race, strip him of his result. And I know what Quiet One might say, "Well, he wasn't a part of it", well he still benefitted from it, whether he knew about it or not. The result is fake, he didn't win it in my eyes. He should win it through TALENT and not through stupid back room manipulation. But it still doesn't answer the question of what the championship outcome would have been if Massa had gone on and won that race......

In my eyes, this is much, much deeper than simply fixing a race. It's about stupidity, indecency, not to mention endangering spectators/marshalls with the crash and ripping off thousands of fans at the track and millions watching world wide of a proper results, and ripping off other teams/drivers who were (before the safety car period) in a good position.

There, rant over. Screw you Renault!

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A few things spring to mind, firstly that the FIA/WMSC must have had a similar amount of evidence against Briatore as they had for Symonds, that we are unaware of, and his failure to "own up" explains his harsher sentence than Symonds. Either that, or the WMSC is a shambles and this was just a personal vendetta against Briatore. You decide that one :lol: In any event I feel no sympathy for Briatore (he's just too rich to feel sorry for).

Do note, even if this was a personal vendetta against Briatore, and the evidence against him was as thin as it seems, he was almost certainly involved (as confirmed by Renault's internal investigation). It is still justice even if it is reached through an unjust method ;)

Symonds on the other hand did own up, so to all those who are still claiming a lack of evidence or anything else, I quote from WMSC "In determining that (...) the World Motor Sport Council has had regard: (i) to Mr.Symonds' acceptance that he took part in the conspiracy; and (ii) tohis communication to the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council thatit was to his "eternal regret and shame" that he participated in theconspiracy".

With regard to the sentence, well, looks like nobody is happy. It was never going to be all that severe on Renault if the WMSC was satisfied only 3 employees were involved, and in a way, that's right since those 3 have all been dealt with. However, it seems like Renault got off pretty easily here in terms of an actual punishment. The suspended sentence only kicks in if a "comparable offence" is committed (which amounts to nothing). Funny to see that they have to make a donation to safety. Not sure if I agree with that, commit a severe offence and get away with it by making a healthy payment to the FIA? Okay so it is for safety, but still, I get the feeling that it was negotiated behind closed doors and probably resulted in a big reduction in the sentence. FIA would look better if they agreed an amount with Renault but called it a fine (at least that would give the punishment some sting).

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But his second place ws not fear eather and that's my point probably he would have finished out of the points anyways without this crash, Alonso won an unfear race but the whole field was affected because of this, I believe that taking the win from Alonso only it would be unfear because hte rest of the field finished there for the same reason, so IMO there whole race should be nullified becuase nto doing this is not unly unfear but it is also giving a reward to those to fixed the race to win it.

yea honey, but wasn't nico who did anything illegal, so teorically he did achieve his 2nd position legally. the point for me would be taking off this race points from alonso's wdc sum and the points from wcc for the team. only that.

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I'm pretty disheartened by all this- I'd have much preferred a real ban. I'm one of the few people it seems who feels that the sport would be better without the manufacturers, so I don't care if Renault leave. Every decision the FIA makes with regard to Renault is to keep them in F1. As long as HQ keep making rumblings about leaving, they effectively get a free ride to do what the hell they like.

And yet every media piece I read says things like "can F1 afford to lose another manufacturer?". I'd argue that it can't afford not to. I know it means some jobs are lost, but frankly I can't get that excited about that. Half the people I know in silicon valley are losing theirs; employees have always had to suffer due to the ineptitude of their CEOs.

When the money is coming from a manufacturer that doesn't care about racing (and let's face it even at Ferrari HQ the books are what counts), results are what counts and it doesn't matter how you get them. No results and the team dies anyway- what is there to lose? You may as well try fixing it. If you actually give a crap about racing then it's harder to justify that. For all the flak some of the privateers have got it's hard to imagine them doing that.

Hopefully Renault will leave anyway and we'll see an end to this mess. Hopefully Toyota will go anyway, and then I'm getting close to my goal........ :naughty:

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And to all those talking about annulling the race- there's no basis for that. The only people you can disqualify are Piquet and Alonso. Piquet for obvious reasons, and Alonso could be disqualified if they chose to disqualify the entire Renault team. Everybody else's result should stand as they haven't breached any rules.

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A few things spring to mind, firstly that the FIA/WMSC must have had a similar amount of evidence against Briatore as they had for Symonds, that we are unaware of, and his failure to "own up" explains his harsher sentence than Symonds. Either that, or the WMSC is a shambles and this was just a personal vendetta against Briatore. You decide that one :lol: In any event I feel no sympathy for Briatore (he's just too rich to feel sorry for).

The failure to own up was what the FIA considered aggravating in the previous McLaren's hearings. For FIA, is not the act itself what establishes the severity of a crime but whether or not the team tries to hide it (see McLaren's saga for details). Cover up from the team should be considered as an aggravating circumstance, not worse than the crime itself or you end up having inconsistencies like a 100M fine for McLaren and point deductions and an unespecified amount to donate from Renault with practically no other punishments for their unparallelled breach...in short, a personal vendetta seems the most likely explanation :P

Do note, even if this was a personal vendetta against Briatore, and the evidence against him was as thin as it seems, he was almost certainly involved (as confirmed by Renault's internal investigation). It is still justice even if it is reached through an unjust method ;)

Justice is not to be achieved via an unjust method. That's a basic principle of Law. And even if for the umpteenth time we repeat that this is no court of law, at least some basic principles should be appliable. Mostly because they want to apply some sort of justice, and it should be perceived as such. The statements don't explain much so far (what were the actual findings from Renault? what did this conspiracy was all about?) We all know that Briatore was involved. We just don't know in what was he involved and how much. But he gets a lifetime ban...

Symonds on the other hand did own up, so to all those who are still claiming a lack of evidence or anything else, I quote from WMSC "In determining that (...) the World Motor Sport Council has had regard: (i) to Mr.Symonds' acceptance that he took part in the conspiracy; and (ii) tohis communication to the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council thatit was to his "eternal regret and shame" that he participated in theconspiracy".

Ditto. He took part...in what? Did they ordered Piquet to crash? Did they just fail to stop him from crashing even when he said he will? Did Symonds actually tell him where and when to crash?. We still know as much as we knew last friday.

With regard to the sentence, well, looks like nobody is happy. It was never going to be all that severe on Renault if the WMSC was satisfied only 3 employees were involved, and in a way, that's right since those 3 have all been dealt with. However, it seems like Renault got off pretty easily here in terms of an actual punishment. The suspended sentence only kicks in if a "comparable offence" is committed (which amounts to nothing). Funny to see that they have to make a donation to safety. Not sure if I agree with that, commit a severe offence and get away with it by making a healthy payment to the FIA? Okay so it is for safety, but still, I get the feeling that it was negotiated behind closed doors and probably resulted in a big reduction in the sentence. FIA would look better if they agreed an amount with Renault but called it a fine (at least that would give the punishment some sting).

Indeed.

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The failure to own up was what the FIA considered aggravating in the previous McLaren's hearings. For FIA, is not the act itself what establishes the severity of a crime but whether or not the team tries to hide it (see McLaren's saga for details). Cover up from the team should be considered as an aggravating circumstance, not worse than the crime itself or you end up having inconsistencies like a 100M fine for McLaren and point deductions and an unespecified amount to donate from Renault with practically no other punishments for their unparallelled breach...in short, a personal vendetta seems the most likely explanation :P

Well, I think it certainly was a vendetta with Briatore which played some influence, however I also think Briatore was guilty so...who cares? Max got what he wanted and Briatore got what he deserved. I couldn't care less for either of them.

... and yes, the regulations are vague, and this will always mean that the sentences are vague too. Nobody ever said FIA was even similar to a remotely competent court, and I'd like to see all of their "reasoning" and "evidence" for reaching their decision(s), that would be nice.

Justice is not to be achieved via an unjust method. That's a basic principle of Law. And even if for the umpteenth time we repeat that this is no court of law, at least some basic principles should be appliable. Mostly because they want to apply some sort of justice, and it should be perceived as such. The statements don't explain much so far (what were the actual findings from Renault? what did this conspiracy was all about?) We all know that Briatore was involved. We just don't know in what was he involved and how much. But he gets a lifetime ban...

Well, I don't think it should be achieved via an unjust method either, but in this case, I'm as sure as I can be about anything that Briatore, Symonds and Piquet were involved in this conspiracy. I may not be happy with the method, but I can still be reasonably pleased with the outcome - the only thing I would change is the sentencing, which was too lenient imo. If people want to complain that WMSC/FIA is a shambles it's up to them, old news though. As for finding out more about what went on, see above and below.

Ditto. He took part...in what? Did they ordered Piquet to crash? Did they just fail to stop him from crashing even when he said he will? Did Symonds actually tell him where and when to crash?. We still know as much as we knew last friday.

I take it as meaning he accepts his part in the conspiracy Piquet alleges, that is, he ordered the crash :lol: Maybe it means the moon landings though.

Seriously, I'd like more details too. I believe they are going to publish a transcript, almost like a real court.

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Well, I think it certainly was a vendetta with Briatore which played some influence, however I also think Briatore was guilty so...who cares? Max got what he wanted and Briatore got what he deserved. I couldn't care less for either of them.

... and yes, the regulations are vague, and this will always mean that the sentences are vague too. Nobody ever said FIA was even similar to a remotely competent court, and I'd like to see all of their "reasoning" and "evidence" for reaching their decision(s), that would be nice.

Well, I don't think it should be achieved via an unjust method either, but in this case, I'm as sure as I can be about anything that Briatore, Symonds and Piquet were involved in this conspiracy. I may not be happy with the method, but I can still be reasonably pleased with the outcome - the only thing I would change is the sentencing, which was too lenient imo. If people want to complain that WMSC/FIA is a shambles it's up to them, old news though. As for finding out more about what went on, see above and below.

I take it as meaning he accepts his part in the conspiracy Piquet alleges, that is, he ordered the crash :lol: Maybe it means the moon landings though.

Seriously, I'd like more details too. I believe they are going to publish a transcript, almost like a real court.

Yes, I am expecting such full transcript.

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Just thinking about this in relation to the treatment that Mclaren got and I remembered posting a prediction for the 2008 season I realize it is not an exact match but it does capture the spirit a bit :)

Ron Dennis will tell one of the other team principles that he saw that both Ferrari drivers put their left shoe on before they put their right shoe on. The FIA, upon hearing this will rule that the order in which drivers put their shoes on is proprietary information and will fine Mclaren 100 million dollars..... Later in the season Flavio will note that both Ferrari drivers put their left glove on before they put their right glove on. The FIA, upon hearing this will rule that the order in which drivers put their gloves on is proprietary information and will congratulate Flavio on being so observant!

The world will continue to turn, night will continue to follow day, F1 and the FIA will become even more irrelevant!

Hard to believe but true.

Keep Smiling

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what happened to all of you guys with these long post, right now I am working and don't have the time to read/answer all of them, I will need to wait until I get home but if in that time you continue to post like this I will have a real hard time catching up :wacko:

I think this is why so many people seem to be missing some important points here. These posts are too long. Without bias, I will attempt to lay out the scenario with very few words.

Briatore was a thorn in Max's side last year and this year over the Formula One Team-whatever-they-called-themselves and Max has been in executioner's mode ever since. Keep that in mind.

Piquet Jr., in a fit of pique, blew the lid off a conspiracy to fix the Singapore GP. He provided enough proof to convince the FIA and WMSC that there was a good amount of truth to his accusations against Briatore and Symonds. Remember that the FIA and WMSC need only be convinced of something and there is no real standard of proof required. Renault had nowhere to go because they had signed papers (as all F1 teams have) agreeing to follow the rules and the punishments administered by the FIA and the WMSC. These are legally-binding documents.

Even though very few team members were involved in the conspiracy, the International Sporting Code, Article 123 states that the entrant (Renault F1) is responsible for any actions of it's employees. This is a point alot of posters here want to ignore. Don't ignore it. Because of this clause, the WMSC is justified in punishing the whole team.

Even though the whole team is responsible, the WMSC aren't required to administer the same punishment for the same crime. McLaren were handed their huge fine not for being in possession of stolen documents, but for bringing the sport into disrepute. Renault are guilty of this as well. The reason why McLaren had to pay the huge fines and endure continued scrutiny was because Ron Dennis refused to step down. Briatore, for all his faults, realized this and gave Max what he wanted....and stepped down immediately (saving Renault from suffering McLaren's fate).

The rest is up for debate, but I personally feel that justice was only half done. Everyone involved with the McLaren and the Renault scandals should have been banned. I don't like the deal whereby you get immunity for testimony. If you're guilty, you get punished. Period. Of course that isn't how law (and the WMSC's imitation of law) works. But it should.

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I'm pretty disheartened by all this- I'd have much preferred a real ban. I'm one of the few people it seems who feels that the sport would be better without the manufacturers, so I don't care if Renault leave. Every decision the FIA makes with regard to Renault is to keep them in F1. As long as HQ keep making rumblings about leaving, they effectively get a free ride to do what the hell they like.

Worryingly for you, the other person who thinks that is me.

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Just thinking about this in relation to the treatment that Mclaren got and I remembered posting a prediction for the 2008 season I realize it is not an exact match but it does capture the spirit a bit :)

Ron Dennis will tell one of the other team principles that he saw that both Ferrari drivers put their left shoe on before they put their right shoe on. The FIA, upon hearing this will rule that the order in which drivers put their shoes on is proprietary information and will fine Mclaren 100 million dollars..... Later in the season Flavio will note that both Ferrari drivers put their left glove on before they put their right glove on. The FIA, upon hearing this will rule that the order in which drivers put their gloves on is proprietary information and will congratulate Flavio on being so observant!

The world will continue to turn, night will continue to follow day, F1 and the FIA will become even more irrelevant!

Hard to believe but true.

Keep Smiling

:clap3:excellent.

well..

Any sympathizers for Piquet's crocodile tears?:)

FomerRenault F1 Team driver Nelson Piquet Jr. left the extraordinary meetingof the World Motor Sport Council without talking to the gathered pressat Paris. The Brazilian, however, issued a statement to apologisehimself for the race-fixing scandal and said that he believes that alot of people won't be able to forgive him for it.

Nelson Piquet Jr.: "I am relieved that the FIA investigation has now been concluded. Those now running the Renault F1Team took the decision, as I did, that it is better that the truth beknown and accept the consequences. The most positive thing to come frombringing this to the attention of the FIA is that nothing like it willever happen again.

"I bitterly regret my actions to follow the orders I was given. I wish every day that I had not done it.

"I don't know how far my explanation will go to making peopleunderstand because for many being a racing driver is an amazingprivilege, as it was for me. All I can tell you is that my situation atRenault turned into a nightmare. Having dreamed of being a Formula Onedriver and having worked so hard to get there, I found myself at themercy of Mr Briatore. His true character, which had previously onlybeen known to those he had treated like this in the past, is now known.

"Mr Briatore was my manager as well as the team boss, he had my futurein his hands but he cared nothing for it. By the time of the SingaporeGP he had isolated me and driven me to the lowest point I had everreached in my life. Now that I am out of that situation I cannotbelieve that I agreed to the plan, but when it was put to me I feltthat I was in no position to refuse. Listening now to Mr Briatore'sreaction to my crash and hearing the comments he has made to the pressover the last two weeks it is clear to me that I was simply being usedby him then to be discarded and left to ridicule.

"I have had to learn some very difficult lessons over the last 12months and reconsider what is valuable in life. What has not changed ismy love for Formula One and hunger to race again. I realise that I haveto start my career from zero. I can only hope that a team willrecognise how badly I was stifled at Renault and give me an opportunityto show what I promised in my career in F3 and GP2. What can be assuredis that there will be no driver in Formula One as determined as me toprove myself.

"As my final words on this matter, I would like to repeat that I am sosorry to those who work in Formula One (including the many good peopleat Renault) the fans and the governing body. I do not expect this to beforgiven or forgotten but at least now people can draw theirconclusions based upon what really happened."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since I cannot talk 2 Nelson directly....

I did suspect the fact that you were indeed treated unfairly, but the gap between Nando and yourself was just too big for you to justify your argument. Everyone knows Nando expects to be treated like Schumacher, so he cant have a driver of his caliber racing the same car in same team..but...look at the difference...forget the raw pace, did you atleast pick a point or two? cmon Nelson.....you had the chance..the only reason (if its true) why you were asked to do what you claimed you had to do was simply because you were not good at anything else...you put yourself in that position....you only improved and got some results after the car was dramatically improved, you cant drive like Lewis or Nando who would race the hell out of a bad car and atleast try to get some points, instead you just drove around saying that it was a weekend to forget. How many weekends did you have to forget during your entire F1 career?

Sorry Man Piquet, you may do well after you start your career from zero or whatever, but you were simply too slow, and you threw the Sh#t only because you had nothing to lose.

All the best....I don't want to comment anything else on this thread...

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Worryingly for you, the other person who thinks that is me.

Oh no, I am yet another one. Yeah, so I am a Renault fan but at the same time want no manufacturers in the sport so what? Who said I should be simple and predictable? :P

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