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Kati

Renault Under Investigation?

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Another witness against FB and PS that must be Alonso, he spilled the beans once again :lol:http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/320102/A_second_witness_against_Briatore_and_Symonds/

Who else could have known about this? that's why he was summonded even when he was not considered to be involved, his presence was required to let it all out, that guy's great.

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Oh - I thought you meant he actually admitted it. Like said something like, "I planned the crash with Flav and ordered Jnr to do it." Telling us about when and how they orchestrated it would be handy too. Accepting it just means he said "yeah whatever you want to say is fine by me" to the FIA in order to get a lighter sentence.

Far more importantly (since this is what I was talking about) he has still, in no way, actually pointed at Flav. No one from within Renault has. Not one person. Renault simply claim to have run an internal investigation and found him guilty. Laughable.

Well, bearing in mind I do want all the gory details of the "trial" and such, I think you (and Andres) are reaching a little here. I mean, Symonds "accepted the charge", this is not an ambiguous word or sentence, it's a confession, what else do you want? You may be wondering exactly what he admitted, but for now it's fairly reasonable to conclude he accepted the accusation against him (that is he conspired to fix the race with Piquet and Briatore). If I'm on trial for murder and I "accept the charge" then that means I am guilty of...murder. No doubt all of this will come out in the transcript to clear it up.

Before the case everyone was insisting there was more than enough evidence/proof to find Flav guilty of planning the crash. If they were dubious, they confidently projected that more evidence would come to light during the hearing that would prove it beyond doubt. Still nothing has materialised.

Now people are starting to realise that they've been hood winked. With FIA's investigation (lol), Renault's "Internal Investigation" (lol) the only evidence saying Flav planned this comes from Jnr's lips. Not even Symonds (after rolling over for a lighter sentence) would incriminate Flav. We might all think he did it, but let's face it - the punishment was dished out soley to him, when he was the party they had the least evidence against.

That confirmed exactly what FIA wanted it to - I wrote about the unsurprising nature of this before.

No it's not - justice would be Max being banned from motor racing for life too.

Well, hopefully it will "materialise" when the transcript is published. Don't go holding your breath for it being some damning evidence on the part of Briatore though, my argument was always based around the FIA needing very little evidence to convict.

Have you ever run into associate in the store that would not sell you something because: "you do not deserve it" or "you are to obese, you should not eat any more chocolate" or "you have too many speeding tickets" or "you cheated your wife"?

If you own track you sell track time to anyone with money to pay for it. Otherwise, you go out of business soon.

A series rivalling F1, with that level of complexity and attracting top companies and drivers, would take years to construct...perhaps it would be ready for when the current Concorde agreement runs out in 2012...

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please let him sue Max - unfortunately Max is too clever weasley and hides behind FIA.

He can't sue Max. The FIA make the rules and Briatore, as an employee of an F1 team governed by the FIA's rules, has no legal ground to stand on. He broke the rules he agreed to participate under.

i happen to think no series would seriously work without fia.

Why do you think this? All the FIA really do is set up rules and safety standards for each racing series. Do you know that many large events worldwide happen quite successfully without being part of the FIA?

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Well, bearing in mind I do want all the gory details of the "trial" and such, I think you (and Andres) are reaching a little here. I mean, Symonds "accepted the charge", this is not an ambiguous word or sentence, it's a confession, what else do you want?

I told him that and he said he haven't heard about it, I even asked him the same question as you, what else do you want? maybe they need FB to be recorded while dreaming and talking about the details of this case. I really don't know what else do they want?

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I like this news, they call Alonso a Whistleblower :lol: for those of you who didn't believe Alonso knew about it just read this

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/320105/Witness_X_damned_Briatore/

'Witness X' damned Briatore

Secret whistleblower confirmed former Renault chief's deliberate crash plan

Flavio Briatore's fate was sealed by the evidence of a secret whistleblower within Renault, codenamed 'Witness X'.

Former team boss Briatore was effectively handed a lifetime ban from motorsport for his role in the conspiracy that saw Nelson Piquet Jr deliberately crash his Renault in last year's Singapore Grand Prix.

Following a meeting of the World Motor Sport Council on Monday, it was made clear the FIA will not sanction any event involving Briatore, nor will any driver he manages be granted a Superlicence in future should they continue to work with him.

Briatore was invited to attend the meeting in Paris where Renault were handed a permanent ban, suspended for two years, but declined to do so, instead arguing in a letter from his lawyer that he was not a licence holder and not accountable to the FIA.

The 59-year-old's decision not to fight his corner was understandable given the weight of evidence against him, in particular from the mysterious Witness X.

In releasing detailed findings into one of the most explosive cases in sporting history, the FIA has confirmed another member of the Renault team came forward during the manufacturer's own internal investigations.

However, the FIA were not made aware of the whistleblower until just five days ago, when Renault provided additional documents.

In their judgment, the FIA noted: "In those additional submissions, Renault F1 referred to the existence of another member of the Renault F1 team (Witness X) who, although not a conspirator himself, knew of the conspiracy at the time of the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.

"Renault F1 stated in its submissions of 17 September 2009 that Witness X had confirmed that Mr Briatore had known of the deliberate crash plan before it had been put into effect."

Anonymity

Following the revelation, and after being granted the right of anonymity to protect his identity - only FIA president Max Mosley and the body's legal advisors are aware of his real name - Witness X was then interviewed by a member of the FIA's external counsel.

Determining his evidence was factual, Renault made a third and final set of written submissions on Saturday which was the final nail in Briatore's coffin.

In their statement, they wrote: "Renault F1 has concluded that the following had knowledge of the conspiracy to cause a safety car: Nelson Piquet Jr, Pat Symonds, Flavio Briatore and Witness X.

"Witness X was told of the idea suggested by Nelson Piquet Jr by Mr Symonds, whilst in the presence of Mr Briatore.

"Witness X objected to the idea. He did not know the plan was to be carried into effect until the crash happened.

"As a result of the evidence, including Mr Piquet's admission, Mr Symonds' responses and Witness X's evidence, Renault F1 concluded that they and Mr Briatore must have known about the conspiracy."

The Council determined "that the evidence indicates that this was a secret conspiracy, kept from the remainder of the team and executed by three individuals who were acting far outside their authority and, arguably, contrary to the interests of Renault F1".

It continued: "No other member of the team was involved in the conspiracy or (with the exception of Witness X) had any knowledge of it."

The evidence laid the blame squarely at Briatore's door, and with the Italian choosing not to defend himself, the Council hammered him with a sanction described on Tuesday as "excessive" by Carlos Gracia, the head of Spain's motorsport body.

The Council dismissed Briatore's suggestion he had no knowledge of the affair, and refused to accept his version of events, ruling he was "personally and directly involved in the planning of the conspiracy".

The Council further noted Briatore neglected his duties as team principal and manager to Piquet Jr.

Unsatisfactory

They added that "not only did he hold a responsibility to the team, he had a responsibility to guide and assist Mr Piquet Jr in his career and to offer advice as needed.

"The WMSC regard it to be unsatisfactory that any team principal should manage any driver as it can lead to the kinds of conflicts of interests that plainly arose here.

"In this case Mr Briatore manifestly did not guide Mr Piquet Jr appropriately, and indeed allowed and seemingly encouraged him to engage in potentially ruinous and life-threatening activities.

"Taken together, the above factors, and the complete absence of any mitigating factors, lead the WMSC to conclude that Mr Briatore is not a person suitable to participate in any way in any motorsport activities under the FIA's control."

Briatore is understood to be considering his legal options.

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Why do you think this? All the FIA really do is set up rules and safety standards for each racing series. Do you know that many large events worldwide happen quite successfully without being part of the FIA?

Not of the same 'size' as Formula One. Also the people who would end up working in any breakaways series would be the same people working in teams right now, what means we'd have the same scandals. At least with FIA we do get some sort of judging over the bs they do, even if unfair/not punishing as much as necessary. Can you imagine the same case in a breakaway series, with a harder penalty (which would obviously lead at Renault's exit)? They'd lose like 1/6 of the influence/money/network/credibility/blablabla. Plus, a frontal confrontation of interest between the major teams could cause a second split on the whole thing. FIA is there to be this neutral thing who balances the interests of ones and others, so the whole thing happens in the end. Does it favors one more than the others? Yea. But it favours relatively to importance, in order for the whole thing to go on.

That's life. Democracy does not exist.

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Not of the same 'size' as Formula One. Also the people who would end up working in any breakaways series would be the same people working in teams right now, what means we'd have the same scandals. At least with FIA we do get some sort of judging over the bs they do, even if unfair/not punishing as much as necessary. Can you imagine the same case in a breakaway series, with a harder penalty (which would obviously lead at Renault's exit)? They'd lose like 1/6 of the influence/money/network/credibility/blablabla. Plus, a frontal confrontation of interest between the major teams could cause a second split on the whole thing. FIA is there to be this neutral thing who balances the interests of ones and others, so the whole thing happens in the end. Does it favors one more than the others? Yea. But it favours relatively to importance, in order for the whole thing to go on.

That's life. Democracy does not exist.

I understand your point but Puma is right, a big series can exist without FIA but other entity must take FIA place, to do what FIA do, the may be biased or not like many people here think about FIA but that new series will need a FIA kind of entity to make it work.

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Two discussions here:

1.- Whether Flavio might or might not try to build his own breakaway series. I think he might as well try.

2.- The actual success of such series should they be launched. That is more debatable, but I don't think it's success is related with any FIA official sanction or not. It will come to good tracks, good cars, good drivers, good show and lots of marketing (if we are just talking about financial success). To become a legendary series as F1 is, of course they will need years to develop a mystic and such. A difficult task? Yes. Impossible? No. Briatore's reputation won't be of much influence. See Max Mosley's reputation after the spankgate or before when he was known as the son of the fascist party in England and you will see that a good reputation is not madnatory :P

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So "witness X" supported the claims.

Hang on, let's think about this:

Piquet who came up with the idea and executed it (supported by evidence) gets freedom from prosecution

Pat who went along with it, admitted it, was offered freedom from prosecution and apologised gets a ban for 5 years

Flav, for whom there is no evidence other than accusations, went along with it, denied it gets removed from anything to do with motorsport

Witness X, went along with it and still works in Renault gets freedom from prosecution

Of the four people implicated in this, two got "witness protection" and one was offered it. Clearly a personal vendetta against Flav. And the person who came up with the idea and executes gets away with no sanctions???!!!

I find it very bizarre and whilst I don't defend Flav and think he is guilty, hope he sues the arse off FIA as they desperately need some change.

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So "witness X" supported the claims.

Hang on, let's think about this:

Piquet who came up with the idea and executed it (supported by evidence) gets freedom from prosecution

Pat who went along with it, admitted it, was offered freedom from prosecution and apologised gets a ban for 5 years

Flav, for whom there is no evidence other than accusations, went along with it, denied it gets removed from anything to do with motorsport

Witness X, went along with it and still works in Renault gets freedom from prosecution

Of the four people implicated in this, two got "witness protection" and one was offered it. Clearly a personal vendetta against Flav. And the person who came up with the idea and executes gets away with no sanctions???!!!

I find it very bizarre and whilst I don't defend Flav and think he is guilty, hope he sues the arse off FIA as they desperately need some change.

Pretty much the conclussions I came up to (see my other thread). I am no fan of Flavio (hard to be a fan of a guy like him) but it's like watching Bin Laden being caught and then convicted "for being a Muslim" instead of being convicted for his crimes while letting every other member of Al Qaeda go home with shiny new bombs for pointing the finger at him.

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So "witness X" supported the claims.

Hang on, let's think about this:

Piquet who came up with the idea and executed it (supported by evidence) gets freedom from prosecution

Pat who went along with it, admitted it, was offered freedom from prosecution and apologised gets a ban for 5 years

Flav, for whom there is no evidence other than accusations, went along with it, denied it gets removed from anything to do with motorsport

Witness X, went along with it and still works in Renault gets freedom from prosecution

Of the four people implicated in this, two got "witness protection" and one was offered it. Clearly a personal vendetta against Flav. And the person who came up with the idea and executes gets away with no sanctions???!!!

I find it very bizarre and whilst I don't defend Flav and think he is guilty, hope he sues the arse off FIA as they desperately need some change.

no, no, no, don't say "witness X" say Alonso. :naughty:

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no, no, no, don't say "witness X" say Alonso. :naughty:

Even though there is no evidence saying that the witness X is Alonso, I will never be shocked to find out its him...:naughty:

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Well, bearing in mind I do want all the gory details of the "trial" and such, I think you (and Andres) are reaching a little here. I mean, Symonds "accepted the charge", this is not an ambiguous word or sentence, it's a confession, what else do you want? You may be wondering exactly what he admitted, but for now it's fairly reasonable to conclude he accepted the accusation against him (that is he conspired to fix the race with Piquet and Briatore). If I'm on trial for murder and I "accept the charge" then that means I am guilty of...murder. No doubt all of this will come out in the transcript to clear it up.

and Briatore? - so hang on, why didn't his letter or statement incriminate Flav at all? - nor did anything he said at any point. I still don't see his acceptance of the charges as evidence against Briatore at all - I see a man who didn't want to get banned for life saying, 'okay, whatever you want - I accept it - just don't ban me for life pleeeease.' Knowing the racing pretty much is Symonds' life, that's hardly surprising. I find that much more plausable than accepting that because Jnr says he planned it with Symonds, he must have planned it with Symonds.

and now we have Witness X - could they make their verdict sound any less believable? Perhaps they should bring in the dancing monkey who saw Flav admit to the whole thing to him over peanuts at his pad.

Well, hopefully it will "materialise" when the transcript is published. Don't go holding your breath for it being some damning evidence on the part of Briatore though, my argument was always based around the FIA needing very little evidence to convict.

Well, why bother with evidence at all, if this little evidence allows for a life-time ban.

Concerning the witness X development - I haven't got much time for this (classes start asap) - so...

:lol:

other than that - it's pretty much been said.

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Even though there is no evidence saying that the witness X is Alonso, I will never be shocked to find out its him...:naughty:

Just think about it, who needed to know about this? he was the only one who needed to know, who else inside the time will say no to the boss? and who else is a very well known whistleblower? why is FB not aloud to manage any driver from now on? because that was the reason why the whistleblower didn't want to blow, they found out a way to finish that relation so the whistleblower could freely speak aboput it, that is why the whitleblower was required to be present at the hearing just in case FB decided to go, there was no other reason, he was secretly offered an immunity like I said before in this thread, that's why he was discharged before being charged, I know a lot of people here will disagree but they won't find another person to fit in here because deep inside they all know I am right.

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Okay here's yet another glaringly massive problem with the FIA / Renault 'investigations'.

(This is just one more to add to the loooooong list.)

Why did this phantom witness X demand anonymity?

Think about it. If Flav, Symonds, Jnr and witness X knew about the plan and all knew that Flav knew then they all know who witness X is anyway! Or does he think Flav might have forgotten he was in the room?

It's such a load of unbelievable bollocks.

Right now Flav's scratching his head and thinking (i) who the hell could that be, it was only Jnr, Symonds and Me in the room OR (ii) no wonder they need an imaginary witness X, since I didn't know anything about this until after he did it.

Either way (guilty or innocent of planning the crash), the whole witness X development is bulls##t. Either it's someone who renault have found to put up to the job of framing Flav (since they can't actually get any real evidence in their little 'investigation') or it's a completely imaginary figure.

I think it's just a renault mechanic who wants a pay rise and a new contract with renault for the coming years - or a nice retirement package. Renault walked around saying 'who's willing to say it was Flav and they knew it? That way we all get off lightly - and what's more, the FIA will keep you anonymous and Flav'll never know it was you. This guy put his hand up and said, I'll do it. Job's a goodun.

The existence of witness X is probable, the chance of witness X's statement being entirely true is vitually nil.

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There are several problems with Witness X:

1) Why weren't they sacked/banned? They were just as involved as Flav/Pat in that they knew and did nothing to stop it or bring it to FIA's attention.

2) They can never be cross-examined as they have immunity/identity protection

3) Its all circumstantial evidence/hearsay and would not stand up in a court of law; a decent lawyer could easily say that there's no proof and that this is their word against his; Flav's lawsuit will be interesting.

4) People will inevitably say it is Nando ^^^^ which it may well be, although unlikely. If he is innocent this will not do his image any good and will always hang over him. If it is him and I were an F1 Team/Sponsor I would be very nervous having had him implicated in two major scandals where he has ratted on the team.

5) People can say Witness X does not exist and it is a frame-up against Flav. If true, undermines FIA's credibility somewhat and demonstrates how deep the Mosley cancer has infected the organisation. If Witness X does exist, it can't be proven and people will still think it is a frame-up. So FIA can't ever look good as a result.

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Okay here's yet another glaringly massive problem with the FIA / Renault 'investigations'.

(This is just one more to add to the loooooong list.)

Why did this phantom witness X demand anonymity?

Think about it. If Flav, Symonds, Jnr and witness X knew about the plan and all knew that Flav knew then they all know who witness X is anyway! Or does he think Flav might have forgotten he was in the room?

It's such a load of unbelievable bollocks.

Right now Flav's scratching his head and thinking (i) who the hell could that be, it was only Jnr, Symonds and Me in the room OR (ii) no wonder they need an imaginary witness X, since I didn't know anything about this until after he did it.

Either way (guilty or innocent of planning the crash), the whole witness X development is bulls##t. Either it's someone who renault have found to put up to the job of framing Flav (since they can't actually get any real evidence in their little 'investigation') or it's a completely imaginary figure.

I think it's just a renault mechanic who wants a pay rise and a new contract with renault for the coming years - or a nice retirement package. Renault walked around saying 'who's willing to say it was Flav and they knew it? That way we all get off lightly - and what's more, the FIA will keep you anonymous and Flav'll never know it was you. This guy put his hand up and said, I'll do it. Job's a goodun.

The existence of witness X is probable, the chance of witness X's statement being entirely true is vitually nil.

Yes to both you and Meanie. Without X they have no case against Flavio. This is more suspicious due to the vague account of X's testimony according to the FIA.

He is supposaed to have said (as there are no direct quotes from what he said) that he was told by Pat about Piquet talking of craashing his car, while Flavio was present. Does that mean that it was at a meeting where Pat, X and Briatore where present, or that Pat told him privately about a meeting between Pat, Piquet and Flavio? In both cases the situation is quite different.

One of the biggest rule infringements in F1 history, if true, and we have nothing. But Mosley is happy: "the blame was put on those who were to blame". Really?

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I carrefully read evidence that FIA put on the website.

Statements of NPJ and X are contradictory. There is no X in NPJ's statement!

EDIT: After listening audio: seems that X,FB and PS talked on Saturday, while NPJ was in the meeting with FB and PS on Sunday, so there is no contradiction.

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Yes to both you and Meanie. Without X they have no case against Flavio. This is more suspicious due to the vague account of X's testimony according to the FIA.

He is supposaed to have said (as there are no direct quotes from what he said) that he was told by Pat about Piquet talking of craashing his car, while Flavio was present. Does that mean that it was at a meeting where Pat, X and Briatore where present, or that Pat told him privately about a meeting between Pat, Piquet and Flavio? In both cases the situation is quite different.

One of the biggest rule infringements in F1 history, if true, and we have nothing. But Mosley is happy: "the blame was put on those who were to blame". Really?

Even with X FIA have no case.

I never thought I'd see the day when I felt sorry for Flav - but you know what - it's actually starting to happen....

must..... fight..... it.

FLAVISABIGFATSMELLYb#####dFACEDIDIOTHOLE!

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Even with X FIA have no case.

I never thought I'd see the day when I felt sorry for Flav - but you know what - it's actually starting to happen....

must..... fight..... it.

FLAVISABIGFATSMELLYb#####dFACEDIDIOTHOLE!

Me too, we should start a Foundation to save Flavio (no, wait, there's already Greenpeace to save the whales) Poor Flavio, no job, at his age, having to look after an ugly wife and kids...do these people have no mercy?

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Just think about it, who needed to know about this? he was the only one who needed to know, who else inside the time will say no to the boss? and who else is a very well known whistleblower? why is FB not aloud to manage any driver from now on? because that was the reason why the whistleblower didn't want to blow, they found out a way to finish that relation so the whistleblower could freely speak aboput it, that is why the whitleblower was required to be present at the hearing just in case FB decided to go, there was no other reason, he was secretly offered an immunity like I said before in this thread, that's why he was discharged before being charged, I know a lot of people here will disagree but they won't find another person to fit in here because deep inside they all know I am right.

We both know who is this so called X, my pastor friend! :naughty:

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Funny, funny funny how you all avoid the fact that this Witness X it is nobody else but Alonso, he is the only person besides the 3 other who needed to know about it in order to make this works, a mechanic, yeah right, what clould a mechanic have done in this case? why didn't you better came up with the idea of NPJ engeneer? it would had fit better here than a simple mechanic, why this whistleblower needed anonimity? just because the only person in the team who could loose something by revealing him name is Alonso, noone else, even if you think that this Witness X rejected the idea right away, it would only fit Alonso, a mechanic would not say no to this because he is just a minor employee in the team very easily replaceable, the whistleblower is Alonso and he didn't rejected the idea and you could see this in the strategy, he never questioned it, because he was expeting this to happen, just try to fit him in in the witness X hole and you will find he is the whistleblower, don't want to see it? that's ok but that doesn't change the facts.

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We both know who is this so called X, my pastor friend! :naughty:

they all know but they want to think it was someboy else, but I know the guy and I know he is the one.

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Issue 1 - the X identity

X could be the boy who mops the floor, X could be a bloke that was standing around at the time, X could be a figment of Renault's imagination, X could be an FIA invention, X could be a liar given a nice bonus by Renault to finger Flav (since they couldn't find anyone to do so), X could be a mechanic that sniffed a rat after the event, X could be one of Flav's X's. X could be Alonso, X could be a disgruntled engineer in Renault.

Issue 2 - the X paradox

If X exists and is telling the truth - then Flav, Symonds, Jnr all know who he is - so why the anonymity? The fact that none of them appear to know who this is shows that he's either a fabrication or his story is. (who's fabrication is a matter for further debate - my money's on Renault paying someone to do this).

Issue 3 - the X mystery

Next - X's statement is not direcly quoted (surprised?) so it's hard to tell exactly what he says he saw/heard and in who's presence or who told him. All a bit iffy if you ask me. What would be the reason for this imprecise statement unless it was to avoid anyone easily disproving it (note how all of FIA's case follows same logic - they've learnt their methods from the creationist lobby). If X was indeed there - why can't he plainly tell us what happened - or did he, and the FIA cut out the bits where he said Flav wasn't there?

Issue 4 - the X factor

Last problem - X still doesn't actually say any more than we already have from Jnr and Symonds - so what on earth is the statement in there for anyway?

Essentially - X's statement is 100% worthless.

Issue 5 - why X?

The ONLY reason it is in there is to lend more credence to the verdict in the eye's of those who want to find Flav guilty. Not for anyone who want's to find out if he is guilty.

Issue 6 - Xcuse me but...

For anyone who thinks X's 'statement' (fictitious or not) proves anything - I will tell you what it proves - It proves that you are easily duped, and that is all.

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they all know but they want to think it was someboy else, but I know the guy and I know he is the one.

that cult is lead by that bald Jewish guy..:naughty:

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