Kimi, You Cheater!

[Schumikonen 2]

Sorry, I don't have internet at home for a while and having to write at work is just not the same. That is why I didn't post the youtube link (I can't look at it here) or the articles. You can look at the main page of TF1 for the related articles about it, though. That said, a couple of comments:

1) Yes, sorry, I meant the first curve. The replay was just after the crash so I made a mix up. The advantage comes from gaining more momentum with that move (a la Hamilton 2008). A close call, but not anymore than Lewis last year.

Maybe that momentum is just what Ferrari calls KERS

[Quiet One 15]

I just watched the video again and I can see that you all blind, Kimi got in the track right next to RK but he got more speed and pass him right away but I don't quite understand why we are just talking about Kimi and we don't say anything about the "unfear advantage" that the Brown behing Kimi took right there too? I guess that is RB who stalled at the start he gained several places there but who cares about that, he is not the winner and is not driving a Ferrari.

I can believe that a fan of that Singapure wall crashing race fixing team Alonso is blaming Kimi of cheating just becasue of this.

*sigh* I was being ironic with the title thread. Something most people here seems to be immune to (with the usual exceptions)

The Alonso bit I will just ignore it.

[Schumikonen 2]

3) Anyways, from what I can see through the opinions here, it seems like it is not so obvious as it seemed to me watching the replay that he gained an advantage. When I watched the replay I was influenced by the article and perhaps that made me think it was pretty obvious.. Maybe it's just a question of judgemente and thus not a blatant breach for anybody to bother complaining. In any case, it's an interesting experiment on how my own perceptions could be changed by others.

Ok I accept your apology but I still think Alonso and Renault are a Singapure wall crashing race fixing team

[Schumikonen 2]

*sigh* I was being ironic with the title thread. Something most people here seems to be immune to (with the usual exceptions)

The Alonso bit I will just ignore it.

but that was the best part.

[Schumikonen 2]

I'm just looking at the thread headline again and wondering where have we all gone wrong

I thnk it was in the fisrt corner

[Quiet One 15]

Still, what is the difference between the way Kimi overtook RK (KERS or not, he could use it so fast only because he got a better line due to the running off) and the way Lewis overtook Kimi last year?

Yeah, I am stubborn I know.

[Kati 0]

I thought Andres was talking about at the end of the straight, because he said "chicane" and "cut". You can't really cut La Source which is more like a hairpin.

Anyway, to address your post: at the start of the race it's not so clear cut as to say "any positions gained around the outside at La Source are illegal". That would be ridiculous. The extra run off is their to be used to avoid collisions and some times that means gaining places too, what was KR supposed to do, run into the cars that were on the track? Or pass them around the outside then try and remember exactly who he passed and let them back through - thereby creating another dangerous situation with speed differences?

The fact is when you have extra tarmac at the exterior of a corner, on the first lap it is a "de facto" part of the track* (otherwise there would be a wall there), and the smartest drivers use it to their advantage. As long as they don't use it blatantly to gain position on the first lap, it shouldn't be an issue. I don't think KR used it blatantly, there was very little room and if he'd turned in there would have been a collision.

Tbh, like Martin Brundle said, I think Kimi probably planned to go around the outside at La Source because he knew there would be a first lap compression there (as always), but that's just speculative.

*e.g. when Alonso forced Hammy onto that section of tarmac at the start of the 2007 race, he didn't get penalised for dangerous driving or forcing a competitor off the track Schumi style. That's because the fact that it's a tarmac surface cannot be ignored, it's their to be used and abused by the drivers just like other parts of the track.

It looks like if he'd tried to stay on track at that point there would have been a collision with the Toyota, knowingly staying on track and causing a collision is a worse offence than going wide and rejoining and arguably gaining some ground.

when i first complained a girl said 'oh german tv said in Spa it is legal'. ok nice, where is it written? again, i dont mind going wide for avoiding a crash, because its obviously necessary. i just dont agree in using the outside for overtakes. some people even wondered if he used kers then.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Still, what is the difference between the way Kimi overtook RK (KERS or not, he could use it so fast only because he got a better line due to the running off) and the way Lewis overtook Kimi last year?

Yeah, I am stubborn I know.

Kimi is besides them entering the corner(look at the video again) while Lewis was behind Kimi gaining momentum going off and shooting ahead at the exit of the corner...

Sh#t sorry, you'r talking about the 2nd corner, is'nt a driver allowed 1 block move????

[Schumikonen 2]

Still, what is the difference between the way Kimi overtook RK (KERS or not, he could use it so fast only because he got a better line due to the running off) and the way Lewis overtook Kimi last year?

Yeah, I am stubborn I know.

better line or not RK had it coming, he was slower than Fisico so there was no way he could have stopped Kimi from passing him.

I think this just your way to keep us away from the thread about the real cheater Alonso, BTW did you read the news about Massa and FB about the Singapuere crash.

[Insider 0]

From what I have seen, Kimi was in breach of the standing rules when he unwittingly gained an advantage through the utilisation of an emergency 'run-off' area. It is for the Stewards to rule on such matters and I am sure there were several protestations from the pitwall. Needless to say, the Stewards would have probably adjudged Kimi's move as a 'knee-jerk' reaction to his predicament and not a pre-meditated action that should result in a penalty. Nevertheless, irrespective of Kimi's frame of mind, the reasons for his actions or whatever Steward's deliberations may or may not have been, the rules clearly state that any advantaged gained should be restored.

I am certain that the matter was looked at by the Stewards. It is inconceivable that it was not. The only conclusion can be that they decided to override the regulations governing such incidents. It is certainly not 'cheating' unless you can conclusively prove that the excursion was wholly intentional. I would say that was virtually impossible. The Spa officials obviously had their reasons for not instructing Ferrari to relinquish the places their driver had gained. I cannot think, for the life of me, what they may have been. That none of the other teams have protested post-race is equally bizarre. Perhaps we shall never know. Or, perhaps it was just another unexplainable misinterpretation of FIA rules that seem to arise when the red cars are involved.

[Schumikonen 2]

when i first complained a girl said 'oh german tv said in Spa it is legal'. ok nice, where is it written? again, i dont mind going wide for avoiding a crash, because its obviously necessary. i just dont agree in using the outside for overtakes. some people even wondered if he used kers then.

we are forgetting that the run off area it is suppose to be slower that the race track because it must be dirtier, so those in the track are suppose to have better traction so I don't think that anybody will use a dirtier surface to try to gain an advantage.

[Quiet One 15]

Kimi is besides them entering the corner(look at the video again) while Lewis was behind Kimi gaining momentum going off and shooting ahead at the exit of the corner...

Mmmh...I cannot watch the video again here, but I see your point. Still it doesn't convince me that it makes such a difference but is a good point you make there.

Oh, and if the fact that Kimim did not get penalized means that the stewards are finally taking the sensible way and not interfering as much as they did last year then it is all good news. There can't be wheel to wheel racing if most moves can be deemed dangerous or illegal. Racing means scrapping and controversial moves. (That is why I think something like crashing on a wall under team orders is just part of normal racing and shouldn't be penalized )

[Schumikonen 2]

From what I have seen, Kimi was in breach of the standing rules when he unwittingly gained an advantage through the utilisation of an emergency 'run-off' area. It is for the Stewards to rule on such matters and I am sure there were several protestations from the pitwall. Needless to say, the Stewards would have probably adjudged Kimi's move as a 'knee-jerk' reaction to his predicament and not a pre-meditated action that should result in a penalty. Nevertheless, irrespective of Kimi's frame of mind, the reasons for his actions or whatever Steward's deliberations may or may not have been, the rules clearly state that any advantaged gained should be restored.

I am certain that the matter was looked at by the Stewards. It is inconceivable that it was not. The only conclusion can be that they decided to override the regulations governing such incidents. It is certainly not 'cheating' unless you can conclusively prove that the excursion was wholly intentional. I would say that was virtually impossible. The Spa officials obviously had their reasons for not instructing Ferrari to relinquish the places their driver had gained. I cannot think, for the life of me, what they may have been. That none of the other teams have protested post-race is equally bizarre. Perhaps we shall never know. Or, perhaps it was just another unexplainable misinterpretation of FIA rules that seem to arise when the red cars are involved.

Obviously we are missing something here, no stewards penalty and no complain from any team specially Force India means that we are missing something here if there were a reason to complain about this someone would just have done it (beside us I mean) and nobody did so Kimi won fearly, no more to add about this.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Mmmh...I cannot watch the video again here, but I see your point. Still it doesn't convince me that it makes such a difference but is a good point you make there.

Oh, and if the fact that Kimim did not get penalized means that the stewards are finally taking the sensible way and not interfering as much as they did last year then it is all good news. There can't be wheel to wheel racing if most moves can be deemed dangerous or illegal. Racing means scrapping and controversial moves. (That is why I think something like crashing on a wall under team orders is just part of normal racing and shouldn't be penalized )

no, it's not good news, because now everyone says "look, it's the red cars again"

[Schumikonen 2]

Mmmh...I cannot watch the video again here, but I see your point. Still it doesn't convince me that it makes such a difference but is a good point you make there.

Oh, and if the fact that Kimim did not get penalized means that the stewards are finally taking the sensible way and not interfering as much as they did last year then it is all good news. There can't be wheel to wheel racing if most moves can be deemed dangerous or illegal. Racing means scrapping and controversial moves. (That is why I think something like crashing on a wall under team orders is just part of normal racing and shouldn't be penalized )

I didn't see this one coming

[BradSpeedMan 6]

[/b]

I didn't see this one coming

[Quiet One 15]

no, it's not good news, because now everyone says "look, it's the red cars again"

That is why once they start penalizing every little thing, there is no easy way out. Either teams will start complaining about every little thing the other teams do "because you penalized us for such a little thing before", or if the stewards decide to let the drivers race, the first time a driver is allowed to do something that was penalized before everybody else iwll complain.

If it had been Hammy who got away this time we all would have said "of course, because is Hammy and the crane thing and blah blah blah". If it was Alonso we would all have said "of course, because is Alonso and Flavio plays golf with Bernie and blah blah blah". In any case, I'd rather let a Ferrari get away with it this time, if that really means that no other teams would get penalized under these circumstances. (Or if one of their drivers crashes against the wall to favour the team, which is almost the same case )

[Kati 0]

we are forgetting that the run off area it is suppose to be slower that the race track because it must be dirtier, so those in the track are suppose to have better traction so I don't think that anybody will use a dirtier surface to try to gain an advantage.

its why i wonder if he used kers, and if so, well, then it was intentionally.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

That is why once they start penalizing every little thing, there is no easy way out. Either teams will start complaining about every little thing the other teams do "because you penalized us for such a little thing before", or if the stewards decide to let the drivers race, the first time a driver is allowed to do something that was penalized before everybody else iwll complain.

If it had been Hammy who got away this time we all would have said "of course, because is Hammy and the crane thing and blah blah blah". If it was Alonso we would all have said "of course, because is Alonso and Flavio plays golf with Bernie and blah blah blah". In any case, I'd rather let a Ferrari get away with it this time, if that really means that no other teams would get penalized under these circumstances. (Or if one of their drivers crashes against the wall to favour the team, which is almost the same case )

very true, except for the part in bold again

[Quiet One 15]

its why i wonder if he used kers, and if so, well, then it was intentionally.

Insider, who has a better way with words than I do, summed it up quite nicely.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Are you blind or didn

[Max Mosley 2]

Ok now I know it's the first corner we're talking about, I agree he cheated. Blatant gaining of an advantage from being completely off the track. Kimi does that every year at Spa, not only at the first corner either.

And Tommy makes some excellent points as always.

[yurp 0]

dribs - you heard right - martin brundle said 'it looks like that could have been planned' or something along those lines when talking about the line kimi took around the outside of corner one on the replay.

for me - three things...

1) i think views will vary here, but he didn't so much cut a corner as make it longer - by going around the outside he actually travels further - he was clever enough to avoid the traffic jam occuring on the apex and so got ahead, but i say fair enough myself. had he actually 'cut' a corner with all 4 wheels then there would likely be a louder case made against him. on one corner at valencia (forget which one) all the drivers start ignoring the kerbs on the exit and drifting way wide on every lap (easily all 4 wheels over the kerb and well into the run off) - so it's really no different. senna was pretty messy like that too - prost on the other hand was always extremely tidy.

2) the fact that less is being made of this by the other teams indicates 1 of 2 things - i) Ferrari aren't in the race for either title, so no one really gives a crap or ii) people are getting a little less melodramatic and the stewards might be learning how to be more sensible. Sadly, I doubt option (ii) so it's probable that people just don't see ferrari as much of a threat. the stewards themselves would have been more concerned with the carnage at corner 2 at this point in the race, so they probably put kimi's excursion down as a little sunday drive and got on with enjoying button and hamilton's misfortune over and over again on those little replay boxes they have - I know I would have - comon - who didn't enjoy watching the reigning and probable next WDC's being driven off the road by the newbies - poetry.

3) it would have been too early in the race for either brawn or red bull to complain since they didn't know if a stop go penalty for kimi would work to their gain or loss at that point - so hey - even the title contenders probably thought it was best not to bother making a fuss. the only team who might have complained would be FI, but then everyone would have said they got their first win through grassing kimi up - blah blah FI cheated blah. any way they had enough on their plate - perhaps this needs combining with the 'FI blew it' thread - woohoo.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

dribs - you heard right - martin brundle said 'it looks like that could have been planned' or something along those lines when talking about the line kimi took around the outside of corner one on the replay.

for me - three things...

1) i think views will vary here, but he didn't so much cut a corner as make it longer - by going around the outside he actually travels further - he was clever enough to avoid the traffic jam occuring on the apex and so got ahead, but i say fair enough myself. had he actually 'cut' a corner with all 4 wheels then there would likely be a louder case made against him. on one corner at valencia (forget which one) all the drivers start ignoring the kerbs on the exit and drifting way wide on every lap (easily all 4 wheels over the kerb and well into the run off) - so it's really no different. senna was pretty messy like that too - prost on the other hand was always extremely tidy.

2) the fact that less is being made of this by the other teams indicates 1 of 2 things - i) Ferrari aren't in the race for either title, so no one really gives a crap or ii) people are getting a little less melodramatic and the stewards might be learning how to be more sensible. Sadly, I doubt option (ii) so it's probable that people just don't see ferrari as much of a threat. the stewards themselves would have been more concerned with the carnage at corner 2 at this point in the race, so they probably put kimi's excursion down as a little sunday drive and got on with enjoying button and hamilton's misfortune over and over again on those little replay boxes they have - I know I would have - comon - who didn't enjoy watching the reigning and probable next WDC's being driven off the road by the newbies - poetry.

3) it would have been too early in the race for either brawn or red bull to complain since they didn't know if a stop go penalty for kimi would work to their gain or loss at that point - so hey - even the title contenders probably thought it was best not to bother making a fuss. the only team who might have complained would be FI, but then everyone would have said they got their first win through grassing kimi up - blah blah FI cheated blah. any way they had enough on their plate - perhaps this needs combining with the 'FI blew it' thread - woohoo.

I agree with some of your points, with others I don't, especially with your last one. FI would'nt give a Sh#t if they cheated with their first win...or not. It's a win in the record books, and there has been more controversial winning instances. Plus, what exposure!!! Who would say no to that. The reason I think they did'nt complain is maybe a engine deal perhaps, so they thought it best not to disturb the peace...who knows? and that then is Force India

and I really think the reason the paddock is quiet is because of some unwritten rule we don't know about, Kimi seemed to do it deliberately, it looked pretty impressive and fantastic, and I'm glad he "got away with it". Which reminds me, he did exactly the same thing to Hamilton last year, why was'nt he punished? Why was Hamilton punished, because it was a corner not a runway area....???

What's going on here folks????

So many questions people, who knows the truth??????????????????????

[wapi 4]

its why i wonder if he used kers, and if so, well, then it was intentionally.

Why is KERS relevant? Did he used all 4 wheels?

KERS is part of the car. It is not cheating. Some teams were not competent enough to develop it, so now they lose in some instances, while on the season start KERS teams were laughed at for poor balance and reliability. Now tables turned and suddenly it is considered unfair advantage or something that honest drivers do not use?!?? Why?