Quiet One

Kimi, You Cheater!

132 posts in this topic

Well there is another consideration. It is not unusual for cars on the 1st lap to go on the run-off area in Spa, common even - if the stewards had acted, you could argue that they would have to re-open previous races and that's one large metal receptacle of nematodes.

I raised an eyebrow (Roger Moore-like) when I saw him go off, but it was obvious when you saw his general race-pace that it did not make huge difference.

Plus, do we really, really want another enquiry/scandal/appeal? No ta been too much of that lately.

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Why is KERS relevant? Did he used all 4 wheels?

KERS is part of the car. It is not cheating. Some teams were not competent enough to develop it, so now they lose in some instances, while on the season start KERS teams were laughed at for poor balance and reliability. Now tables turned and suddenly it is considered unfair advantage or something that honest drivers do not use?!?? Why?

ok, lets go by parts cus u do not seem to understand what is going on here.

1. he did get positions while driving outside, and yes, with all tires.

2. i dont give a damn if he was or wasnt using kers. Who kers in fact? (worst joke ever) But someone said maybe he 'did not have intention to', and well, if he used kers, then he had. Using it or not using it, it's illegal if it is outside of the track. Period.

3. I don't care if someone claimed kers was bs or what. this is not being talked of here. Personally I don't like idea some cars have it and some do not, and in kati-world it would be a matter of 'either everyone has it, or no one has it'. But this is not Kati-world, this is Bernie-world.

4. Repeating it so you can understand. He can and should use kers on start to gain positions. INSIDE THE STUPID TRACK.

Thanks, and kisses. :)

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He can and should use kers on start to gain positions. INSIDE THE STUPID TRACK.

Ah, now that is a good point - if there was evidence he had used KERS on that area then there would be a case to throw the book at him, because otherwise on the track, it was too crowded to do so. In which case he would have gained an unfair advantage.

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ok, lets go by parts cus u do not seem to understand what is going on here.

1. he did get positions while driving outside, and yes, with all tires.

2. i dont give a damn if he was or wasnt using kers. Who kers in fact? (worst joke ever) But someone said maybe he 'did not have intention to', and well, if he used kers, then he had. Using it or not using it, it's illegal if it is outside of the track. Period.

3. I don't care if someone claimed kers was bs or what. this is not being talked of here. Personally I don't like idea some cars have it and some do not, and in kati-world it would be a matter of 'either everyone has it, or no one has it'. But this is not Kati-world, this is Bernie-world.

4. Repeating it so you can understand. He can and should use kers on start to gain positions. INSIDE THE STUPID TRACK.

Thanks, and kisses. :)

I can argue some of your points here but because I am sleepy due to a lack of cafeine due to a lack of money I will only say something about the 4th point and it is this, SPA is not an stupid track, in fact I consider SPA as the only real F1 track in used today and maybe Monza but SPA is the best of the best.

Well I tell you something else, maybe Kimi used KERS(If he really did) outside of the track to compensate the lack of grip and not thinking passing someone, remember we already talked about the dirt and that stuff.

Now this is really going to be the last thing, He did not gained a position in that move he pass RK in the not stupid track not in the stupid run off area, believe me I saw it

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I agree with some of your points, with others I don't, especially with your last one. FI would'nt give a Sh#t if they cheated with their first win...or not. It's a win in the record books, and there has been more controversial winning instances. Plus, what exposure!!! Who would say no to that. The reason I think they did'nt complain is maybe a engine deal perhaps, so they thought it best not to disturb the peace...who knows? and that then is Force India

dat true.

i was trying to think of a reason why FI wouldn't have complained, but that was the best I could come up with - you're right and much closer to the mark.

perhaps they blew it :ph34r:

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I can argue some of your points here but because I am sleepy due to a lack of cafeine due to a lack of money I will only say something about the 4th point and it is this, SPA is not an stupid track, in fact I consider SPA as the only real F1 track in used today and maybe Monza but SPA is the best of the best.

Well I tell you something else, maybe Kimi used KERS(If he really did) outside of the track to compensate the lack of grip and not thinking passing someone, remember we already talked about the dirt and that stuff.

Now this is really going to be the last thing, He did not gained a position in that move he pass RK in the not stupid track not in the stupid run off area, believe me I saw it

who is talking bout kubeetza? i dont care if he overtook kubeetza in or outside track. He overtook Nick from outside, and this is what I care about.

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who is talking bout kubeetza? i dont care if he overtook kubeetza in or outside track. He overtook Nick from outside, and this is what I care about.

oooofff, thank GOD I finally disagree with something you posted. I was beginning to worry that the end of the World was upon us, because I caught myself nodding and saying "yeah, yeah, EXACTLY" while reading your posts here. Kimi actually DID gain position while re-entering the track NEXT to Kubica. Kubica complained in the post-race interviews that if he did not slam on the brakes and LET Kimi get in front of him, they both would have been out of the race. BTW, wasn't it Kimi who took part of Kubica's front wing and, eventually, cost him podium? It could have been somebody else, but I believe it was Kimi literally running Kubica out of his racing line after passing him OUTSIDE THE TRACK. It was not the CURSE (I can make bad jokes too, Kati), but the fact that Kubica chose to slow down rather then crash into Kimi. The whole race was, essentially, decided on that 1st lap.

Kimi should have been penalized for TWO infractions, not just one. Gee, I begin to believe that race stewards have a big blind spot for the red cars this year...

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From what I have seen, Kimi was in breach of the standing rules when he unwittingly gained an advantage through the utilisation of an emergency 'run-off' area. It is for the Stewards to rule on such matters and I am sure there were several protestations from the pitwall. Needless to say, the Stewards would have probably adjudged Kimi's move as a 'knee-jerk' reaction to his predicament and not a pre-meditated action that should result in a penalty. Nevertheless, irrespective of Kimi's frame of mind, the reasons for his actions or whatever Steward's deliberations may or may not have been, the rules clearly state that any advantaged gained should be restored.

I am certain that the matter was looked at by the Stewards. It is inconceivable that it was not. The only conclusion can be that they decided to override the regulations governing such incidents. It is certainly not 'cheating' unless you can conclusively prove that the excursion was wholly intentional. I would say that was virtually impossible. The Spa officials obviously had their reasons for not instructing Ferrari to relinquish the places their driver had gained. I cannot think, for the life of me, what they may have been. That none of the other teams have protested post-race is equally bizarre. Perhaps we shall never know. Or, perhaps it was just another unexplainable misinterpretation of FIA rules that seem to arise when the red cars are involved.

Perhaps the stewards realized they should just let the guys get on with their damned race. Bickering over a tiny rule that didn't affect anyone's race (really, it didn't, trust me) is like watching two California Department of Motor Vehicles clerks bickering over my license being valid just because I copied my address down wrong. Ok, so I was drunk at the time I copied it down on the form (you'd be drunk too if you saw the lines at the local office) but I had passed all the tests and was approved to drive. What was written on that little bit of plastic that I keep near my left butt-cheek was irrelevant in determining if I could drive a car.

Oh, there are two big reasons why nobody filed a protest. Ron Dennis isn't at the races any more and Jean Todt isn't at the races any more. Without those two ninnies slobbering over each tittle and jot of the regulations, it's become a saner grid.

Edited by Autumnpuma

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I do not want to bother quoting everything worth comment but you'll recognize...

1. Why nobody officially or unofficially complained if there was something wrong?

2. Why is driver allowed to use accelerator and brakes (even help from marshalls operating crane) but not KERS while being on run off area? He should be allowed to use whatever to get out of there as soon as posible.

3. If you stop replay of start just before KImi decided to go wide, one can argue that he would be 3rd if Heidfeld(?) did his turn in way not to squeeze him out.

4. Since Spa is remodelled, every year some cars did go out there and none of them lifted accelerator when that happened. Each one of them did exactly the same as Kimi. Some of them managed to come back and gain some advantage also.

5. There is a rumour that on the official drivers briefing before the race, drivers were instructed that it is allowed to run wide in the first corner. Stewards promised not to penalize it. From the race control point of view it is logical. You do not want half of the field taken out in an accident when you have so severe first corner like in Spa. If this is true, then it is simply question of driver's competence to explore all opportunities on his disposal.

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dat true.

i was trying to think of a reason why FI wouldn't have complained, but that was the best I could come up with - you're right and much closer to the mark.

perhaps they blew it :ph34r:

hey adam, yeah, a much about nothing point, I was just saying...anyway, reports this morning seem to confirm the point about FI indebted to Ferrari about engines....cool man

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Oh, there are two big reasons why nobody filed a protest. Ron Dennis isn't at the races any more and Jean Todt isn't at the races any more. Without those two ninnies slobbering over each tittle and jot of the regulations, it's become a saner grid.

:lol:

Someone doesn't support Todt's campaign for FIA president, then.

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who is talking bout kubeetza? i dont care if he overtook kubeetza in or outside track. He overtook Nick from outside, and this is what I care about.

Let me go back to see the video and find a good reason to argue this point. :eusa_think:

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hey adam, yeah, a much about nothing point, I was just saying...anyway, reports this morning seem to confirm the point about FI indebted to Ferrari about engines....cool man

Exactly the kind of point we like.

Yep - if they owed Ferrari plenty of cash, it would make sense to keep quiet too.

How about this scenario...

1) Kimi makes lap 1 excursion

2) FI and everyone take note, but decide is better to wait until restart to decide what to do.

3) Restart occurs and Kimi jumps Fisi

4) Time line splits into 3....

5i) FI complain about Kimi's lap 1 move

5ii*) Ferrari contact FI to remind them that keeping quiet would be a good idea for their budget

5iii) Future Kimi enters wormhole into past created by KERS' ripping of space-time fabric

6i) timeline converges with 5ii*

6iii) Future Kimi tells past Kimi to take outside line into corner 1

7i/ii FI decide better to drop complaint, marshals still busy with corner 2 (Button, Hamilton et al) incident, so happy not to give a ****

7c) Future Kimi and past Kimi break out the vodka

8i/ii everyone forgets about Kimi's little jaunt and the racing continues

8iii) Past Kimi makes lap 1 excursion => (return to 1)

Edited by adamstrags

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Perhaps the stewards realized they should just let the guys get on with their damned race. Bickering over a tiny rule that didn't affect anyone's race (really, it didn't, trust me) is like watching two California Department of Motor Vehicles clerks bickering over my license being valid just because I copied my address down wrong. Ok, so I was drunk at the time I copied it down on the form (you'd be drunk too if you saw the lines at the local office) but I had passed all the tests and was approved to drive. What was written on that little bit of plastic that I keep near my left butt-cheek was irrelevant in determining if I could drive a car.

Oh, there are two big reasons why nobody filed a protest. Ron Dennis isn't at the races any more and Jean Todt isn't at the races any more. Without those two ninnies slobbering over each tittle and jot of the regulations, it's become a saner grid.

You completely forgot about Flavio Briatore he would do it unless he wants to go unnotice because of the Singapure case and Frank Williams he is a complainer too, look what he did to Schumi test.

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I do not want to bother quoting everything worth comment but you'll recognize...

1. Why nobody officially or unofficially complained if there was something wrong?

2. Why is driver allowed to use accelerator and brakes (even help from marshalls operating crane) but not KERS while being on run off area? He should be allowed to use whatever to get out of there as soon as posible.

3. If you stop replay of start just before KImi decided to go wide, one can argue that he would be 3rd if Heidfeld(?) did his turn in way not to squeeze him out.

4. Since Spa is remodelled, every year some cars did go out there and none of them lifted accelerator when that happened. Each one of them did exactly the same as Kimi. Some of them managed to come back and gain some advantage also.

5. There is a rumour that on the official drivers briefing before the race, drivers were instructed that it is allowed to run wide in the first corner. Stewards promised not to penalize it. From the race control point of view it is logical. You do not want half of the field taken out in an accident when you have so severe first corner like in Spa. If this is true, then it is simply question of driver's competence to explore all opportunities on his disposal.

:clap3:

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Exactly the kind of point we like.

Yep - if they owed Ferrari plenty of cash, it would make sense to keep quiet too.

How about this scenario...

1) Kimi makes lap 1 excursion

2) FI and everyone take note, but decide is better to wait until restart to decide what to do.

3) Restart occurs and Kimi jumps Fisi

4) Time line splits into 3....

5i) FI complain about Kimi's lap 1 move

5ii*) Ferrari contact FI to remind them that keeping quiet would be a good idea for their budget

5iii) Future Kimi enters wormhole into past created by KERS' ripping of space-time fabric

6i) timeline converges with 5ii*

6iii) Future Kimi tells past Kimi to take outside line into corner 1

7i/ii FI decide better to drop complaint, marshals still busy with corner 2 (Button, Hamilton et al) incident, so happy not to give a ****

7c) Future Kimi and past Kimi break out the vodka

8i/ii everyone forgets about Kimi's little jaunt and the racing continues

8iii) Past Kimi makes lap 1 excursion => (return to 1)

I saw this movie, its title is "the Time Cop-Terminator goes Back to the Future"

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I do not want to bother quoting everything worth comment but you'll recognize...

1. Why nobody officially or unofficially complained if there was something wrong?

2. Why is driver allowed to use accelerator and brakes (even help from marshalls operating crane) but not KERS while being on run off area? He should be allowed to use whatever to get out of there as soon as posible.

3. If you stop replay of start just before KImi decided to go wide, one can argue that he would be 3rd if Heidfeld(?) did his turn in way not to squeeze him out.

4. Since Spa is remodelled, every year some cars did go out there and none of them lifted accelerator when that happened. Each one of them did exactly the same as Kimi. Some of them managed to come back and gain some advantage also.

5. There is a rumour that on the official drivers briefing before the race, drivers were instructed that it is allowed to run wide in the first corner. Stewards promised not to penalize it. From the race control point of view it is logical. You do not want half of the field taken out in an accident when you have so severe first corner like in Spa. If this is true, then it is simply question of driver's competence to explore all opportunities on his disposal.

1. i just happened to read on totalf1 news on first page a news w a list of reasons this should've happened. not sure if i agree, but still.

2. he should ideally stay in the stupid track. if not he can use kers, if he wont gain positions with it, SO why would he use the damn kers then? again, i mentioned kers because someone said 'maybe wasnt intentional to get advantage'. i dont care what he use, as long as he doesnt get positions while hes outside.

3. im not arguing he cant drive outside, he can. if he wants to drive 24/7 on the grass, it's fine by me. he did went off to avoid a crash though (much more reasonable), but again, he cant overtake people then.

4. That one was always Kimi as far as I remember.

5. If it's not in the rules, it's illegal, that's what I'm talking bout. Like, ok, drive off, don't crash. But when you say it becomes a matter of competence for opprtunities, it gets to a point of using a breach in the rules to gain advantage and well, for me, that's cheating (as much as I know it happens ALL time in f1). 'Ok, they said they won't punish if u go off on first lap, so well, why not getting advantages of it?'

That's the beggining of everything, and for me it's an anti-sport behavior, because all the other drivers were killing theirselves to get positions IN THE TRACK, when someone had the brilliant idea to use the outside. Well, then soon we will have the outside crowded and the inside empty, so maybe that will Kimi back in track.

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Kati, you skipped parts of my sentences you did not like thus responding to something else.

Anyhow I believe it is pointless to discuss this any further. There is one web site and one TV pundit that think something was wrong with Kimi's drive through first corner. Either everyone else is in debt to Ferrari (would love to be Ferrari shareholder in such case), either there is nothing to complain about. I would say latter is far more likely.

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I just finished watching the video again and Kimi passed both BMW on the track, not outside the track, I think the problem here is the lack of KERS in BMW was an issue at the time for them to defend their positions, obviusly they didn't have what it takes to keep Kimi behind and there is nothing ilegal about that.

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Kati, you skipped parts of my sentences you did not like thus responding to something else.

Anyhow I believe it is pointless to discuss this any further. There is one web site and one TV pundit that think something was wrong with Kimi's drive through first corner. Either everyone else is in debt to Ferrari (would love to be Ferrari shareholder in such case), either there is nothing to complain about. I would say latter is far more likely.

what did i skip? i answered what i understood from u saying lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qyPY2ej7Rk also. i still see kimi leaving track behind everyone and arriving only behind kubica.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcjM6LYxS7k&feature=related and this is what i saw on tv. being on the inside, nick is ahead of kimi when he goes off, and when he comes back in, kimi had overtaken him already. i do not agree with the outside being faster or anything, im just using the video to show what i saw on tv.

Edited by Kati

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I just read some random article at some random F1 site (my sources are impecable, as you can see) talking about a controversial move from Kimi on the first lap. I didn't notice it during the race (was too confused about Button and Hamilton's accident and didn't pay enough attention).

Truth is, right before the big crash, Kimi icuts the chicane and gains enough momentum to go up a couple of places which he never gave up. I found the replay of the manoeuvre and indeed seems so. In any case, nobody complained.

So: why didn't anybody complain? And why didn't the stewards penalize him like Hamilton was penalized last year? I am no friend of multiplying penalties because there is no end for the whining and crying afterwards when the stewards finally decide to let the darn drivers do their thing and just drive, I just find it odd.

Do you see what you have gone and done, eh??? 3 pages worth, all because you were bored :dam:

Next time take the dog for a walk. If you haven't got a dog, take your girlfriend for a walk....................no wait, maybe that's not worded right :eusa_think: Or put your slippers on, smoke your pipe and peruse your stamp collection (I know people your age like to have an energetic hobby). Whatever it is, stay away from the bollocking computer! :lol:

Anyway, Bill Shankly (old Liverpool footy manager) once said of the offside rule "If a player is not interfering with play or seeking to gain an advantage, then he damn well should be". If they want to have run off areas on tracks, that's fine. If they don't want drivers to 'gain an advantage' when they go on them, then make them grass, or gravel, or lace the damn things with oil! :whistling:

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who is talking bout kubeetza? i dont care if he overtook kubeetza in or outside track. He overtook Nick from outside, and this is what I care about.

:lol::lol:

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I'm not going to quote specific points (too many) but will just add my take:

1. How do we know Kimi used KERS getting back into the track? There is no proof he did use KERS to rejoin the track. In fact, Kimi said in his post race conference it he did not use KERS as the run-off was bumpy.

2. I would say, looking at replays and stills as also the start frame by frame that Kimi is roughly P4 when he goes off. This is hard to tell, because unlike on a strait, this was a hairpin and determining order is difficult.

3. When Kimi rejoins, he overtakes Nick on the track; he does not rejoin ahead of Nick. You have to see still pics, frame by frame views and slow motion to determine this, yes all of which I have done (too much time!)

4. So to recap, Kimi is P4 when he goes off, and he rejoins in P4 when he's back on (Fisico,Kubica,Nick,Kimi) and overtakes Nick on the track.

5. Nick is too deep taking the corner, misses the apex and Trulli is stuck behind Nick. This causes them to lose time and speed, as opposed to Kimi being faster or gaining an advantage.

6. The rule which states advantage blah blah blah is not applicable here as this was the start of the race, and in Spa, the run-off has been used as part of the circuit since the new layout. No penalty ever for running wide, this has been, most probably, discussed in the drivers' meetings etc regarding starts and safety.

7. Hamilton's case last year where he was penalized: he cut a chicane and got ahead. He did not run wide like Kimi. Many will argue, and win with the stewards, that running wide is the longer route, therefore no advantage.

8. Kimi deserves no penalty, no team asked for it and that is enough to put this one to bed.

Sorry for the long post!

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