Kimi, You Cheater!

[Schumikonen 2]

what did i skip? i answered what i understood from u saying lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qyPY2ej7Rk also. i still see kimi leaving track behind everyone and arriving only behind kubica.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcjM6LYxS7k&feature=related and this is what i saw on tv. being on the inside, nick is ahead of kimi when he goes off, and when he comes back in, kimi had overtaken him already. i do not agree with the outside being faster or anything, im just using the video to show what i saw on tv.

In the first video you can't see that NH is right next to Kimi but you can see it in the second video and you can also see that NH didn't had the speed to defend his position because he had to slow down because RK was right in front of him, noone would wait for him to speed up to have a fear pass on him, so once agian Kimi DIDN'T got in the track in front of NH he got in the track right next to him, go and check it out again, anyway if NH had what it takes to fight Kimi why he didn't pass Kimi or RK? it was just a matter of time for him to be pass by the mighty Kimi and he will do it again at Monza if NH gtes a place in front of him, just stay tuned and you'll see it and then you will say I was right all the time.

[Schumikonen 2]

I'm not going to quote specific points (too many) but will just add my take:

1. How do we know Kimi used KERS getting back into the track? There is no proof he did use KERS to rejoin the track. In fact, Kimi said in his post race conference it he did not use KERS as the run-off was bumpy.

2. I would say, looking at replays and stills as also the start frame by frame that Kimi is roughly P4 when he goes off. This is hard to tell, because unlike on a strait, this was a hairpin and determining order is difficult.

3. When Kimi rejoins, he overtakes Nick on the track; he does not rejoin ahead of Nick. You have to see still pics, frame by frame views and slow motion to determine this, yes all of which I have done (too much time!)

4. So to recap, Kimi is P4 when he goes off, and he rejoins in P4 when he's back on (Fisico,Kubica,Nick,Kimi) and overtakes Nick on the track.

5. Nick is too deep taking the corner, misses the apex and Trulli is stuck behind Nick. This causes them to lose time and speed, as opposed to Kimi being faster or gaining an advantage.

6. The rule which states advantage blah blah blah is not applicable here as this was the start of the race, and in Spa, the run-off has been used as part of the circuit since the new layout. No penalty ever for running wide, this has been, most probably, discussed in the drivers' meetings etc regarding starts and safety.

7. Hamilton's case last year where he was penalized: he cut a chicane and got ahead. He did not run wide like Kimi. Many will argue, and win with the stewards, that running wide is the longer route, therefore no advantage.

8. Kimi deserves no penalty, no team asked for it and that is enough to put this one to bed.

Sorry for the long post!

Don't be sorry for the lenght of this post I enjoy every piece of it and I agree with you.

[LabradoRacer 2]

Initially I did think Kimi 'cheated', but as many have pointed out, the run-off is a longer route. Anyway, the real reason why Kimi wasn't demoted to 2nd/3rd is that he doesn't care a bit. (You still get the same champagne bottle) What's the point of punishing a guy if he's not going to be disappointed?

[wapi 4]

Initially I did think Kimi 'cheated', but as many have pointed out, the run-off is a longer route. Anyway, the real reason why Kimi wasn't demoted to 2nd/3rd is that he doesn't care a bit. (You still get the same champagne bottle) What's the point of punishing a guy if he's not going to be disappointed?

This Kimi drinking sht is so "out"...

Come on, be creative, invent something else!

[dribbler 6]

This Kimi drinking sht is so "out"...

Come on, be creative, invent something else!

Surely Kimi eats sh!t.

[Schumikonen 2]

Surely Kimi eats sh!t.

But that is only on race days, the purpose of this is to have a lighter digestion to have a better use of the KERS.

[Piotr 0]

I do not want to bother quoting everything worth comment but you'll recognize...

1. Why nobody officially or unofficially complained if there was something wrong?

2. Why is driver allowed to use accelerator and brakes (even help from marshalls operating crane) but not KERS while being on run off area? He should be allowed to use whatever to get out of there as soon as posible.

3. If you stop replay of start just before KImi decided to go wide, one can argue that he would be 3rd if Heidfeld(?) did his turn in way not to squeeze him out.

4. Since Spa is remodelled, every year some cars did go out there and none of them lifted accelerator when that happened. Each one of them did exactly the same as Kimi. Some of them managed to come back and gain some advantage also.

5. There is a rumour that on the official drivers briefing before the race, drivers were instructed that it is allowed to run wide in the first corner. Stewards promised not to penalize it. From the race control point of view it is logical. You do not want half of the field taken out in an accident when you have so severe first corner like in Spa. If this is true, then it is simply question of driver's competence to explore all opportunities on his disposal.

This would pretty much explain the whole deal, wouldn't it?

[lewisthegreat2 0]

This one time on Twitter, I posted that the pit lane is technically a short cut off the track, and all drivers who use it should be banned for life, and @JamesAllenNotTheRealJamesAllenJustAFanGoButton86 replied and told me it was a good idea, so it must have been.

[YHR 0]

I'm not going to quote specific points (too many) but will just add my take:

1. How do we know Kimi used KERS getting back into the track? There is no proof he did use KERS to rejoin the track. In fact, Kimi said in his post race conference it he did not use KERS as the run-off was bumpy.

2. I would say, looking at replays and stills as also the start frame by frame that Kimi is roughly P4 when he goes off. This is hard to tell, because unlike on a strait, this was a hairpin and determining order is difficult.

3. When Kimi rejoins, he overtakes Nick on the track; he does not rejoin ahead of Nick. You have to see still pics, frame by frame views and slow motion to determine this, yes all of which I have done (too much time!)

4. So to recap, Kimi is P4 when he goes off, and he rejoins in P4 when he's back on (Fisico,Kubica,Nick,Kimi) and overtakes Nick on the track.

5. Nick is too deep taking the corner, misses the apex and Trulli is stuck behind Nick. This causes them to lose time and speed, as opposed to Kimi being faster or gaining an advantage.

6. The rule which states advantage blah blah blah is not applicable here as this was the start of the race, and in Spa, the run-off has been used as part of the circuit since the new layout. No penalty ever for running wide, this has been, most probably, discussed in the drivers' meetings etc regarding starts and safety.

7. Hamilton's case last year where he was penalized: he cut a chicane and got ahead. He did not run wide like Kimi. Many will argue, and win with the stewards, that running wide is the longer route, therefore no advantage.

8. Kimi deserves no penalty, no team asked for it and that is enough to put this one to bed.

Sorry for the long post!

Point 4 says it all. Was 4th prior to escaping to the run off and 4th when he re entered the track, so why penalize him????

[Schumikonen 2]

We,ve been saying that since the fisrt page but you know there is a lot of Ferrari/Kimi haters that won't stop at anything to blame them for anything but the true will always come out like in the Singapure case.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

To resolve this once and for all, it was Kimi with the Lead Piping in the Billiard Room.....

[pabloh20 1]

Point 4 says it all. Was 4th prior to escaping to the run off and 4th when he re entered the track, so why penalize him????

Errrm, at this very same race last year when you thought that Lewis had accelerated across the run-off, you said that it was right he received a penalty and that it was a breach of the rules, regardless of whether he gained an advantage or not. What's the difference here then??

Sorry, just playing devil's advocate

[Schumikonen 2]

Errrm, at this very same race last year when you thought that Lewis had accelerated across the run-off, you said that it was right he received a penalty and that it was a breach of the rules, regardless of whether he gained an advantage or not. What's the difference here then??

Sorry, just playing devil's advocate

I will tell you the difference, LH took a shorter route while trying to pass someone (that is why we call this cutting the chicane) while Kimi took a longer one to avoid a collision and he didn't pass anyone in that move he pass everybody in the track, in other words LH made the track shorter to acomplish his goal(his lap distance was shorter than the normal lengh of the track) while Kimi made the track longer because he had no other choice (he covered a longer distance than the normal lengh of the track) I think this could give you an idea of why one was penalized while the other wasn't.

[pabloh20 1]

I will tell you the difference, LH took a shorter route while trying to pass someone (that is why we call this cutting the chicane) while Kimi took a longer one to avoid a collision and he didn't pass anyone in that move he pass everybody in the track, in other words LH made the track shorter to acomplish his goal(his lap distance was shorter than the normal lengh of the track) while Kimi made the track longer because he had no other choice (he covered a longer distance than the normal lengh of the track) I think this could give you an idea of why one was penalized while the other wasn't.

No, I am not referring to the supposed objective view of the stewards, butI was referring to YHR's comments last year when he said that Lewis was right to be penalised because he thought Lewis had accelerated over the run-off so it was a breach of the rules of fairplay, or something. In view of that perspective, he should be saying that Kimi should be penalised too.

Anyway, I am afraid your wrong, Sir. From the discussions we had last year, when Kay, I think it was, eventually found the rules as per the FIA, the run off areas of the track are not to be used at any time. Never. End of story. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules

Besides, Kimi did have a choice. He could have slowed down and just followed on track. However, he said before the race that if he got blocked he would head to the run off. Now, I don't think Kimi should have been penalised, but the actual rules don't state anything about getting an advantage, or if the run off is longer than the track, less grippy, etc, they simply say thou shalt not use run off ares

[wapi 4]

Pabloh,

please rewind a little bit. YOu came late and did not read previous post here... You are dropping as back on the first page. Anyhow, for your convenience I will repeat killing argument:

NO driver or team official of ANY team gave slightest hint that Kimi's move was illegal (contrary to last year). So it is quite easy to draw following conclusions:

1. they understand rules much better than we do; it is their job after all OR

2. Drivers were told on their briefing that they are allowed to use run-off in the first corner of the race; it sounds reasonable - you certainly do not want half of the field taken out after 6 seconds of racing

[pabloh20 1]

Pabloh,

please rewind a little bit. YOu came late and did not read previous post here... You are dropping as back on the first page. Anyhow, for your convenience I will repeat killing argument:

NO driver or team official of ANY team gave slightest hint that Kimi's move was illegal (contrary to last year). So it is quite easy to draw following conclusions:

1. they understand rules much better than we do; it is their job after all OR

2. Drivers were told on their briefing that they are allowed to use run-off in the first corner of the race; it sounds reasonable - you certainly do not want half of the field taken out after 6 seconds of racing

No, I have read the whole thread and I think I posted right at the start too. I was also here for the same arguments last year

I suggest you read back over the previous posts, especially the part about devil's advocate.

Seriously, though, the actual FIA rules are quite clear in this regard, for a change. They do state that the run off areas are not to be used, during free practices, qualifying & the race. That's the rule. I never said it was a good rule, just clear

[Rainmaster 7]

No, I am not referring to the supposed objective view of the stewards, butI was referring to YHR's comments last year when he said that Lewis was right to be penalised because he thought Lewis had accelerated over the run-off so it was a breach of the rules of fairplay, or something. In view of that perspective, he should be saying that Kimi should be penalised too.

Anyway, I am afraid your wrong, Sir. From the discussions we had last year, when Kay, I think it was, eventually found the rules as per the FIA, the run off areas of the track are not to be used at any time. Never. End of story. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules

Besides, Kimi did have a choice. He could have slowed down and just followed on track. However, he said before the race that if he got blocked he would head to the run off. Now, I don't think Kimi should have been penalised, but the actual rules don't state anything about getting an advantage, or if the run off is longer than the track, less grippy, etc, they simply say thou shalt not use run off ares

Well, maybe YHR agrees with the objective view of the stewards in both cases then

The problem is that the rules say one thing "no driving off track under any circumstances", but it is allowed in some circumstances (which follows logically from no penalty for Kimi who did in fact drive off track). That's the problem with rules, if you opened them up and said "driving off track is allowed in some circumstances" then you would have to define all of those circumstances and the conditions for getting a penalty or not getting one (which isn't possible to do). It would inevitably lead to more drivers/teams arguing that their off track excursion was legal. It's just easier (and also better, in theory) to close the rules off so that the stewards are free to penalise under their own discretion without having to get into debates about different situations - it puts them in control.

[pabloh20 1]

Well, maybe YHR agrees with the objective view of the stewards in both cases then

The problem is that the rules say one thing "no driving off track under any circumstances", but it is allowed in some circumstances (which follows logically from no penalty for Kimi who did in fact drive off track). That's the problem with rules, if you opened them up and said "driving off track is allowed in some circumstances" then you would have to define all of those circumstances and the conditions for getting a penalty or not getting one (which isn't possible to do). It would inevitably lead to more drivers/teams arguing that their off track excursion was legal. It's just easier (and also better, in theory) to close the rules off so that the stewards are free to penalise under their own discretion without having to get into debates about different situations - it puts them in control.

Well, that could be 1 explanation..........

I'm not sure I agree with that one, Georgey boy and it's unusual for me to disagree with you. I can see your point and I agree with it in a lot of ways and with a bit of consistency it would probably be right. However, it does seem to lend itself to a certain amount of........ermmm......how can I put it........like a bit of a get out clause, for want of a better description.

I think Kimi did get an advantage by using the run off, compared to if he had to take his chances in the pack. But hey, fair play, he got blocked and was always going to use the run off if that happened and he made it work. It could have gone wrong too, that's the chance you take. I have absolutely no qualms about that whatsoever.

As far as I am concerned, if they want to make sure there is no advantage gained from using run offs, then don't bollocking well put lovely smooth tarmac on them, even if it might get a bit dusty. Use grass or something.

[Schumikonen 2]

No, I am not referring to the supposed objective view of the stewards, butI was referring to YHR's comments last year when he said that Lewis was right to be penalised because he thought Lewis had accelerated over the run-off so it was a breach of the rules of fairplay, or something. In view of that perspective, he should be saying that Kimi should be penalised too.

Anyway, I am afraid your wrong, Sir. From the discussions we had last year, when Kay, I think it was, eventually found the rules as per the FIA, the run off areas of the track are not to be used at any time. Never. End of story. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules

Besides, Kimi did have a choice. He could have slowed down and just followed on track. However, he said before the race that if he got blocked he would head to the run off. Now, I don't think Kimi should have been penalised, but the actual rules don't state anything about getting an advantage, or if the run off is longer than the track, less grippy, etc, they simply say thou shalt not use run off ares

In that case I guess it makes perfect sense to disqualify any car/driver that get off the track right away, I mean if you get out of the track, you should park your car right there or head straight to the pitlane to retire and I know the rules says so about the track but what I don't know is if the rules says what kind of penalty should get a driver that gets out of the track and if we are going to penalize every driver that got out of the track at any point in history maybe we'll be talking about new champions for thoses years, the rules says the track is the part between the white lines and I know you've seen many drivers getting out of those lines eather to defend a position or to pass another driver, specially those line that limit the pit exit area, in this case NO DRIVER should ever touch those lines but they do it almost in every race but noone gets a penalty for that, no we should wonder how far from those lines is actualy out of the track?

[Schumikonen 2]

Well, maybe YHR agrees with the objective view of the stewards in both cases then

The problem is that the rules say one thing "no driving off track under any circumstances", but it is allowed in some circumstances (which follows logically from no penalty for Kimi who did in fact drive off track). That's the problem with rules, if you opened them up and said "driving off track is allowed in some circumstances" then you would have to define all of those circumstances and the conditions for getting a penalty or not getting one (which isn't possible to do). It would inevitably lead to more drivers/teams arguing that their off track excursion was legal. It's just easier (and also better, in theory) to close the rules off so that the stewards are free to penalise under their own discretion without having to get into debates about different situations - it puts them in control.

I do.

[Schumikonen 2]

Well, that could be 1 explanation..........

I'm not sure I agree with that one, Georgey boy and it's unusual for me to disagree with you. I can see your point and I agree with it in a lot of ways and with a bit of consistency it would probably be right. However, it does seem to lend itself to a certain amount of........ermmm......how can I put it........like a bit of a get out clause, for want of a better description.

I think Kimi did get an advantage by using the run off, compared to if he had to take his chances in the pack. But hey, fair play, he got blocked and was always going to use the run off if that happened and he made it work. It could have gone wrong too, that's the chance you take. I have absolutely no qualms about that whatsoever.

As far as I am concerned, if they want to make sure there is no advantage gained from using run offs, then don't bollocking well put lovely smooth tarmac on them, even if it might get a bit dusty. Use grass or something.

You see, you know that this run off area is there with that purpose, Kimi did the right thing taking that route, well done for him.

[yurp 0]

In the interests of fair play in the future, I propose that each runoff area should have an entertaining and unique obsticle - for instance...

An alligator pit, Upturned nails (a la wacky races), Lava flow, Acid bath, Oil slick, Those balls you get in the children's play pits, Disused mine shafts, Maze, Stampeeding cattle, Flock of seagulls, Take off ramp, Maure, Inter-dimensional wormhole, Cactus plantation, Men throwing tomatoes, Wile E Coyote.

Any other suggestions?

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Any other suggestions?

Get all the F1 team staff who have cheated to stand there - oh wait, not enough room....

All the F1 stewards - finally a good use for them!

A load of Michael Jackson CDs - that could be a Thriller

A pile of the unsold Luca Badoer merchandise

Kubica's nose-hair clippings

A crane (could be useful for Lewis, later)

The F1 rulebook - that's the biggest obstacle in the sport currently

[Schumikonen 2]

Get all the F1 team staff who have cheated to stand there - oh wait, not enough room....

All the F1 stewards - finally a good use for them!

A load of Michael Jackson CDs - that could be a Thriller

A pile of the unsold Luca Badoer merchandise

Kubica's nose-hair clippings

A crane (could be useful for Lewis, later)

The F1 rulebook - that's the biggest obstacle in the sport currently

That one was cruel

Edit: I agree with the rest.

[pabloh20 1]

In the interests of fair play in the future, I propose that each runoff area should have an entertaining and unique obsticle - for instance...

An alligator pit, Upturned nails (a la wacky races), Lava flow, Acid bath, Oil slick, Those balls you get in the children's play pits, Disused mine shafts, Maze, Stampeeding cattle, Flock of seagulls, Take off ramp, Maure, Inter-dimensional wormhole, Cactus plantation, Men throwing tomatoes, Wile E Coyote.

Any other suggestions?

Leaves?? Well, it works for British Rail!

Get all the F1 team staff who have cheated to stand there - oh wait, not enough room....

All the F1 stewards - finally a good use for them!

A load of Michael Jackson CDs - that could be a Thriller

A pile of the unsold Luca Badoer merchandise

Kubica's nose-hair clippings

A crane (could be useful for Lewis, later)

The F1 rulebook - that's the biggest obstacle in the sport currently

Excellent