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Kimi'S Career

Kimi in 2010   36 members have voted

  1. 1. Will...

    • Retire from motorsport altogether and race for fun.
    • Continue his F1 career.
    • Start a WRC carreer.
    • Stay home, enjoy his millions, party every night and enjoy doing nothing, may buy a PS3.

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504 posts in this topic

Actually I do remember Brundle saying that McLaren did give Hamilton an updated car with newer components & left Kovy with the crap car!

Mclaren admitted that, because only one car could get the full update, if Brundle said that he is just a c#ck, because, even Kovys car was updated, but not as much as Lewis because they couldnt make it on time, so they decided that one car gets the full update, and Kovy outperformed Lewis in that GP Brundle noticed it.

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I think that wouldn't be a problem if every team said the truth about who's #1 and who's #2 driver. McLaren never admit that, they always say both drivers are treated equally, just the same equipment, just the same opportunities, etc. If they said the truth nobody would pay attention to those kind of comments. Some races Alonso had a better car than Piquet but Renault never said they treated both drivers equally. Piquet could complain about that to justify his bad season, and he did it, but nobody paid much attention to his comments on that matter because he is #2 driver. Kovalainen is #2 driver in McLaren but they pretend they don't have #1 and #2.

But what I mean is that we don't know if Kova was given worse strategies. We don't know whether, how or why he was given different strategies. His race pace was far worse than Lewis's, so you might expect there to be different strategies.

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But what I mean is that we don't know if Kova was given worse strategies. We don't know whether, how or why he was given different strategies. His race pace was far worse than Lewis's, so you might expect there to be different strategies.

I think we are talking about different subjects.

i) I say: X=#1 (Alonso, Hamilton, Button...), Y=#2.

ii) You say: we don't know whether, how or why...

iii) I say we don't care because of i)

The problem is McLaren pretending Hamilton isn't #1 driver.

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Yes but we don't know if, how or why Hamilton was treated as number one. Kova might have gotten different strategies because they were actually better for him.

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Alonos fans still whinning about their bitter experience of 2007, man its getting noisy...I wonder why Muzza is wasting his time..

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Yes but we don't know if, how or why Hamilton was treated as number one. Kova might have gotten different strategies because they were actually better for him.

He received the new equipment earlier than Kovalainen in at least one race. That was a fact.

#1 driver can choose the strategie that better suits him

#2 driver has the strategie that better suits him in the words of the team

About the bolded part... You aren't that naive. wink.gif

Alonos fans still whinning about their bitter experience of 2007, man its getting noisy...I wonder why Muzza is wasting his time..

Are you calling me Alonso fans or you still have their voices in your head. eusa_think.gif

Oh, yeah. Thousands, millions are still whinning about 2007. I see the light. Amen. wacko.gif

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I am not convinced that Mclaren are deliberately holding back Kova through race strategies or different equipment, after all they are replacing him with a better driver in 2010 - presumably because they think he hasn't done a good enough job.

If Macca wanted a team mate that Hamilton could easily beat and who wouldn't complain about being #2 driver, surely they would not replace Kova?

I think Heikki is a no.2 driver at Mclaren in terms of: the team prefer it when Lewis wins, the team probably have more respect for Lewis etc (you could make this kind of no.1 and no.2 argument for all teams, e.g. Ferrari prefer Massa to Kimi but I don't think they favour him). I don't think that kind of no.1 and no.2 treatment translates to preferential treatment on track, though.

A problem happens in a team when the guy who feels like he is no.2 (in terms of being respected, liked, whatever) is not able to beat his team mate + has a fragile mind, e.g. Barrichello @ Brawn vs Jenson, Alonso @ Macca vs Hamilton and I'm sure there are many other examples. Then they usually flip out and make things worse for themselves by publicly insulting the team's management and so on, which, in some cases, can lead to the team actually starting to favour the other driver, e.g. Macca 2007.

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He received the new equipment earlier than Kovalainen in at least one race. That was a fact.

#1 driver can choose the strategie that better suits him

#2 driver has the strategie that better suits him in the words of the team

About the bolded part... You aren't that naive. wink.gif

Yes that's true. But you're reading way too much into that one, rather innocuous, case - most likely because you just don't like the team. For one race out of 17, the team only had time to make one set of the very latest updates and, understandably, they gave them to Lewis. You'll need a lot more evidence than that to prove that Kova was consistently and deliberately sabotaged by his own team just to make Lewis look good. Moreover, if Kova had been more competitive, perhaps he would have got the updates instead of Lewis. And as George says, if they want someone to be slow in the sister car, why would they sack Kova?

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Yes that's true. But you're reading way too much into that one, rather innocuous, case - most likely because you just don't like the team. For one race out of 17, the team only had time to make one set of the very latest updates and, understandably, they gave them to Lewis. You'll need a lot more evidence than that to prove that Kova was consistently and deliberately sabotaged by his own team just to make Lewis look good. Moreover, if Kova had been more competitive, perhaps he would have got the updates instead of Lewis. And as George says, if they want someone to be slow in the sister car, why would they sack Kova?

Because the guy is trash but not trash enough to crash on purpose, thus forcing Lewis to crash himself? :P

Seriously, I see what Alehop is pointing out. He is not criticizing Kova's number 2 status, nor hinting that it played any major role on Kova's underperformance. He is just pointing the obvious, i.e. if McLaren for whatever reasons, valid or not, focuses their main efforts on Lewis, then they have a #1 and #2 driver in the team. Whether it came naturally or not, deserved or not is totally irrelevant to the point he tried to make which is: McLaren always denied such situation to exist in their team.

On the other hand, it is a minor point but as it seemed so important to some people to point it out at Renault, I see no problem to point it out at Macca or whichever team you prefer. The issue of preferencial treatment for one of the drivers inside a team is as old as F1 itself. Many drivers were helped by it and many others were hampered.

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Yes I see what you guys are saying. My objections are summed up in the tiny but most crucial word in your post: 'if'. I don't see much evidence that McLaren focus their main efforts on Lewis. If they don't, then Alex's point isn't valid.

Not only that but even if they do now focus on Lewis, I don't think it necessarily proves them liars or hypocrites - although I already accept they are for other reasons and so don't really see any need for you guys to make this point. My understanding of what they said about team favourites was that they took all reasonable steps to give both drivers a fair chance. If one guy's half a second a lap slower in the races, then it's reasonable to favour the other one in exceptional circumstances, like when there's only one last minute front wing update available. Expecting them to cut it in half and glue one bit onto each car would probably be taking things a little far! :P It has little bearing imho on what happens in the team when both drivers are about level. Basically, in this case I don't see hypocrisy from either the team or its fans.

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Yes I see what you guys are saying. My objections are summed up in the tiny but most crucial word in your post: 'if'. I don't see much evidence that McLaren focus their main efforts on Lewis. If they don't, then Alex's point isn't valid.

Not only that but even if they do now focus on Lewis, I don't think it necessarily proves them liars or hypocrites - although I already accept they are for other reasons and so don't really see any need for you guys to make this point. My understanding of what they said about team favourites was that they took all reasonable steps to give both drivers a fair chance. If one guy's half a second a lap slower in the races, then it's reasonable to favour the other one in exceptional circumstances, like when there's only one last minute front wing update available. Expecting them to cut it in half and glue one bit onto each car would probably be taking things a little far! :P It has little bearing imho on what happens in the team when both drivers are about level. Basically, in this case I don't see hypocrisy from either the team or its fans.

It all goes to perception. If you want a "scientific" proof, you should check the times they gave HK a heavier fuel load, establish the qualifying differences with Lewis and come up to a result that might or might not be reasonable. I am not doing it and, frankly, I couldn't care less :P

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1st forum fight in 2 years that doesn't involve maure!! Unless he wants to chip in!

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1st forum fight in 2 years that doesn't involve maure!! Unless he wants to chip in!

He will walk in, talk, laugh and choke himself and get lynched..

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It all goes to perception. If you want a "scientific" proof, you should check the times they gave HK a heavier fuel load, establish the qualifying differences with Lewis and come up to a result that might or might not be reasonable. I am not doing it and, frankly, I couldn't care less :P

Yes OK I don't care either all that much and we know where the other stands on all these points. Perceptions in the absence of clear evidence are easily distorted by bias, as you know better than I do on other issues. The different fuel strategies could easily have minimised Heikki's obvious weakness in the races, rather than have held him back even more.

Edited by Max Mosley

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I am not convinced that Mclaren are deliberately holding back Kova through race strategies or different equipment, after all they are replacing him with a better driver in 2010 - presumably because they think he hasn't done a good enough job.

Deliberately or tossing a trick-coin? The answer could be the bolded part.

If Macca wanted a team mate that Hamilton could easily beat and who wouldn't complain about being #2 driver, surely they would not replace Kova?

If you want to have a chance in the Constructor's Championship you need a couple of good drivers. This season has been tighter than ever and you can expect it even tighter next season. No refueling will bring the real competition on track, today strategies play a role in the outcome of every race.

I think Heikki is a no.2 driver at Mclaren in terms of: the team prefer it when Lewis wins, the team probably have more respect for Lewis etc (you could make this kind of no.1 and no.2 argument for all teams, e.g. Ferrari prefer Massa to Kimi but I don't think they favour him). I don't think that kind of no.1 and no.2 treatment translates to preferential treatment on track, though.

What does 'prefential treatment on track' means? Austria 2002? Things are not that simple today.

A problem happens in a team when the guy who feels like he is no.2 (in terms of being respected, liked, whatever) is not able to beat his team mate + has a fragile mind, e.g. Barrichello @ Brawn vs Jenson, Alonso @ Macca vs Hamilton and I'm sure there are many other examples. Then they usually flip out and make things worse for themselves by publicly insulting the team's management and so on, which, in some cases, can lead to the team actually starting to favour the other driver, e.g. Macca 2007.

I don't think Barrichello has a fragile mind after so many years in the business. It was obvious during the season that Barrichello was the #2 driver. The three-stopper in Spain... I'm not saying Button isn't a deserving Champion but Barrichello would have been as deserving as Button.

You can simplify your argument saying that about Barrichello, Alonso... That's your more than welcome opinion but they have a stronger mind than the average F1 driver that would stick to the script. Hamilton didn't stick to the script in 2007, he started complaining much earlier than Alonso in Monaco which, in that case, didn't lead to the team actually starting to favour the other driver, rather the opposite.

Does he have a fragile mind? Probably. laugh.gif

Yes I see what you guys are saying. My objections are summed up in the tiny but most crucial word in your post: 'if'. I don't see much evidence that McLaren focus their main efforts on Lewis. If they don't, then Alex's point isn't valid.

Are you asking for a scientific proof? I think Andres' suggestion wouldn't fulfill your requirements. We assume Schumacher #1 and Barrichello #2, Alonso #1 and Fisichella #2... We're doing the same kind of assumptions here.

Not only that but even if they do now focus on Lewis, I don't think it necessarily proves them liars or hypocrites...

They are an F1 team, you know? unsure.gif

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I think we are talking about different subjects.

i) I say: X=#1 (Alonso, Hamilton, Button...), Y=#2.

ii) You say: we don't know whether, how or why...

iii) I say we don't care because of i)

The problem is McLaren pretending Hamilton isn't #1 driver.

We all know X= Alonso

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So, Kimi to Sauber next year anyone?? Just thought of it when I saw the article about Nick awarded a Sauber F1 car! That sounds like a plan cos here's the teams he's linked to move with & the pps that are gonna race IMO instead of him:

McLaren: Nico

Toyota: Koba

Ferrari: Nando

The thing is, IF Qadbank Sauber F1 Team enter into F1 next year!

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It really worries me that Raikkonen wants Mclaren or Mclaren and they haven't reached a deal because of money...

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Yes OK I don't care either all that much and we know where the other stands on all these points. Perceptions in the absence of clear evidence are easily distorted by bias, as you know better than I do on other issues. The different fuel strategies could easily have minimised Heikki's obvious weakness in the races, rather than have held him back even more.

I think the same, if Mclaren would intentionally slowed Heikki down they would have done it to the point where he is just a little slow than Hamilton but still fighting for some good position unless someone is paying them a lot of money to slow him down so I don't believe niether of them, Mclaren would loose a lot of point/money by doing this just to make one driver look good it just doesn't make sense, Heikki is it just not that fast in race days, maybe he just can't adapt to the car o maybe it is any other crazy idea but the truth is that Mclaren would not do this just becaue they want to, they must have a very good reason for it and maybe it is Hamilton speed/skills, the guy is good, he is a winner adn he likes to win, the newer parts if not available for both drivers should go to the one with more points and that has always been Hamilton and about that, I see just as an excuse Ferrari has month with the same car adn Kimi was getting good results why Heikki was not doing the same with a better car? I think we all know even when we want to think differently.

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Yes OK I don't care either all that much and we know where the other stands on all these points. Perceptions in the absence of clear evidence are easily distorted by bias, as you know better than I do on other issues. The different fuel strategies could easily have minimised Heikki's obvious weakness in the races, rather than have held him back even more.

Basically, I agree :)

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With Toyota and Brawn presumably out of the equation McLaren may be the only (competitive) game in town for the Kimster. Still with 20-25 million Euros in hand not to drive a red car in 2010 he may be hard pressed to find the motivation - there's that word again - to campaign for any seat in F1. Should he decide to take the year off to rally, golf, locate the best tavern on the planet, or any other d**n thing he chooses to do you have to wonder if Formula One will be waiting on him come 2011. As I originally voted at the start of this post, I would still rather see him stay in the F1 game for next season with one team or another. Age and rust have a way of slowing you down as soon as you step away from the c#ckpit.

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I think the same, if Mclaren would intentionally slowed Heikki down they would have done it to the point where he is just a little slow than Hamilton but still fighting for some good position unless someone is paying them a lot of money to slow him down so I don't believe niether of them, Mclaren would loose a lot of point/money by doing this just to make one driver look good it just doesn't make sense, Heikki is it just not that fast in race days, maybe he just can't adapt to the car o maybe it is any other crazy idea but the truth is that Mclaren would not do this just becaue they want to, they must have a very good reason for it and maybe it is Hamilton speed/skills, the guy is good, he is a winner adn he likes to win, the newer parts if not available for both drivers should go to the one with more points and that has always been Hamilton and about that, I see just as an excuse Ferrari has month with the same car adn Kimi was getting good results why Heikki was not doing the same with a better car? I think we all know even when we want to think differently.

Yes that's what I think, El Tommy. And also, to be nice to Kimi for once, he's scored the 2nd most points in the 2nd half of the season, which is quite remarkable considering the lack of development (although less remarkable when you consider the quality of the title contenders this season :P ).

Basically, I agree :)

Good stuff. :)

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Yes that's what I think, El Tommy. And also, to be nice to Kimi for once, he's scored the 2nd most points in the 2nd half of the season, which is quite remarkable considering the lack of development (although less remarkable when you consider the quality of the title contenders this season :P ).

Good stuff. :)

:blink: I almost fell down dead reading this from u...

a rather impressive post Mr Mosley :lol:

oh, on the Kovy issue, did'nt Mclaren prove their team strategy right after the messup from Kovy at the Monza track. IfI have it right, Kovy even had updates Lewis did'nt

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So, Kimi to Sauber next year anyone?? Just thought of it when I saw the article about Nick awarded a Sauber F1 car! That sounds like a plan cos here's the teams he's linked to move with & the pps that are gonna race IMO instead of him:

McLaren: Nico

Toyota: Koba

Ferrari: Nando

The thing is, IF Qadbank Sauber F1 Team enter into F1 next year!

its mclaren only. if they dont want him he goes home. i still see nico going brawn, maybe on a move over the engines, since they won't supply red bull for being concurrents, well, they must get smthg if they remain with brawn. maybe some more experience for the little german. fernando is going ferrari, we heard it a million times lol. i think nick goes mclaren, warm the seat for nico for a season.

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Kimi said Santander money kicked him out of Ferrari... :thbdn::thbdn: And that the Mclaren contract that he is reading now is thicker than the one he had with Ferrari.

A POSITIVE RESULT FROM FERRARI

Turun Sanomat 1.11 2009 22:39:09

Kimi R

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