Kimi To Wrc!!!!!

[Quiet One 15]

You won't trust my opinion on this at all. But yes, pictures such as the one you posted can sometimes be controversial up here. Controversial enough that I was surprised you posted it, even before I read anyone else's posts. But of course I also thought it was funny and harmless.

A grandma was arrested for _possibly_ similar pictures to yours - we can't say for sure because we only have a description of the pictures. The District Attorney said: "What made [said pictures] offensive was their graphic nature. A little girl with her bare butt showing, kind of looking over her shoulder. It

[Max Mosley 2]

You know that I was only making my usual cheap jokes about political correctness. I thought the picture was fine. But it does show how far political correctness has gone in some places. And it's the same people who are happy to pollute the planet and let poor people starve who get uptight about a baby's bottom... because of course photography could happen to their baby, unlike famine or poverty.

One more thing occurs to me, if we're to ban all pictures that offend some people, or go against some people's morality, we probably ought to ban pictures of women who aren't wearing burkhas. After all, there's no real need for them on an F1 forum and they probably do put some posters off.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Just and only Alonso?

I'm limiting my comments to the drivers we've been talking about in this thread. If you want to change the topic to 'What drivers in F1 history should have been banned', start another thread.

Sure, no problem.

However, I think you should consider the matter from an "all things being equal" perspective. The difficulty is not to credit/blame the car. The difficulty, in my opinion, is that F1 is not a sprint race anymore (even though "sprint" must be its very definition) while Kimi remains a sprint racer. I see this, for instance, in that Kimi got many more fastest laps in 08 than the two goons "fighting" it out for the championship.

I agree. In equal machinery (a neutral car, same tyres, with the drivers having the ability to change set-ups) Kimi would be the quickest. However, as you know, F1 is about dealing with more than just car set-up to be 'fast'. This is why I say that Kimi is conditionally fast. If the conditions are right, he's the fastest out there....but conditions are hardly ever 'right'. A fast driver needs to be able to be quick when the variables are against him. Alonso does that better than just about anyone on the grid.

It's really a non starter to me. He's a good driver - we all know that. You don't get a WDC by being rubbish.

But we must remember that he didn't win his championship decisively. All credit to him for sticking close enough to Lewis to inherit the title, but it was Lewis' to lose, not Kimi's to win.

If we try the 'all things being equal X is better' argument to it's conclusion - then that's just silly too. All things can never actually be equal can they. Even if a medium car / setup was to be attempted, who could agree on what a medium car / setup actually was?

Y'know, when the drivers compete against each other in a kart charity, that's pretty close to 'all things being equal'. Watch those results carefully.

[AleHop 0]

I'm limiting my comments to the drivers we've been talking about in this thread.

You're entitled to limit your comments to whatever you consider appropriate.

If you want to change the topic to 'What drivers in F1 history should have been banned', start another thread.

Is that cynicism? I'm not talking about F1 history, I'm talking about McLaren espionage. If Alonso should have been banned and you are disappointed that teams still hire him, I'm disappointed that McLaren is still racing and Ron Dennis got away with it while Flavio Briatore has been banned for life. That's what Ron Dennis would name as equal treatment.

[maure 1]

I agree. In equal machinery (a neutral car, same tyres, with the drivers having the ability to change set-ups) Kimi would be the quickest. However, as you know, F1 is about dealing with more than just car set-up to be 'fast'. This is why I say that Kimi is conditionally fast. If the conditions are right, he's the fastest out there....but conditions are hardly ever 'right'. A fast driver needs to be able to be quick when the variables are against him. Alonso does that better than just about anyone on the grid.

Yep, we agree. It is the reason why I appeal to the long forgotten nature of F1, that is, a frigging _sprint_ race. Max from pole to flag, no matter who, no matter what.

...(even though I think Alonso should have been banned from racing in F1 years ago and I'm disappointed that teams still hire him).

You might have explained this elsewhere but I don't get your meaning here. Indulge me, please.

[yurp 0]

Is it that bad up there? It never ocurred to me that an image of a naked baby could be regarded as any kind of paedophilia. Maybe I'm being too naive about the whole subject. I was strictly educated under the prudish rules of regular smut, after all.

I went back to the UK for the first time in 3 years last summer and something happened that disturbed me greatly.

My wife and our friend (also a Chinese woman who was travelling with us) went to walk the dog. They came back about 15 mins later and our friend was crying like crazy.

After a while I was able to understand what had happened. Some toddler (boy) was playing in the park naked and (being the typical E. Asian tourist) she had thought him cute and taken a picture. A screaming mother had than run over and started hurling abuse... 'What do you think you're doing!' etc etc etc. She had insisted that our friend delete the picture and leave the park immediately or she'd call the police.

Our friend's English is not fantastic and she was totally distraught.

That sort of thing makes me really sad. It represents the loss of all innocence, the default assumption of depravity, the victory of the sun newspaper and it's ilk and the rise of irrationality.

Not to mention the simple question - 'Why do you let your kid run around naked in the park if you're going to be that mental if people take a picture?'

It is sad to live in a world werea pic of a naked baby is considered imoral.

Indeed - it truly saddens me. In China people still see naked babies as cute and not potential paedophile targets. They also see people looking at those babies as normal people rather than immediately assuming them to be sexual devients.

Actually it's the other way around. You (and I and many others) saw the picture as cute. The people who have the twisted minds are those who would call that picture perverted.

Why do you say that Kimi is worse than Yuji Ide and that he was actually slower than Badoer? Source, please?

(Ok, ok, that joke's getting old. Yes, I agree with you)

About time.

Y'know, when the drivers compete against each other in a kart charity, that's pretty close to 'all things being equal'. Watch those results carefully.

But then I can say karts suit some drivers better than others.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

We already have numerous quotes by two teams that say Kimi doesn't put forth a lot of effort during testing. We can also read between the lines a bit and deduce much the same thing from Ferrari's quotes.

As I see it, Kimi has more raw speed than Alonso. In equal cars, set up the way the drivers like them to handle, Kimi would beat Alonso. Unfortunately, F1 is never as straightforward as that. Ferrari have chosen consistency, money and testing competency over raw speed and I agree with that choice (even though I think Alonso should have been banned from racing in F1 years ago and I'm disappointed that teams still hire him).

Pray that Ferrari has already developed a championship winning car...pray. For if there's no performance next year, heads will roll. Dominicalli has been given an ultimatum, his job is at stake, and with this he took the advise of Micheal who we know lost his seat to the Iceman. This is the last dice Luca has thrown, the stupid excuses they have come up with states the obvious.

"Again facts no one denied

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I think you

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Hey guys, check this out...GOLD!!!!

Who says KR is hopeless in developing the car?

Ferrari

[aussief1 4]

Y'know, when the drivers compete against each other in a kart charity, that's pretty close to 'all things being equal'. Watch those results carefully.

Pray that Ferrari has already developed a championship winning car...pray. For if there's no performance next year, heads will roll. Dominicalli has been given an ultimatum, his job is at stake, and with this he took the advise of Micheal who we know lost his seat to the Iceman. This is the last dice Luca has thrown, the stupid excuses they have come up with states the obvious.

Yup I agree with you Brad, SD has been given such a differcult task to continue on the Championship winning ways of what can only be described as a extremely talented group of people who of which I refer to Schumacher, Brawn, Todt, Byrne & Martinelli. The standard has been set so high SD and company will for as long as he is TP his performance will always be directly compared to that of the Ferrari dream team.

However I believe he is still the best man for the job its just the pressure that's getting to him in my opinion. Who can blame him???!!! I hope for Ferrari's sake they get exactly what they crave with the signing of Alonso. Oh I can't wait, only 94 days to Bahrain 2010!!!!!

But argh at the end of the day Kimi will be happy doing the WRC next year. I know the WRC have gained a few new supporters, you included I should imagine Brad???

someone that agrees with you...

"When Domenicali says

[Quiet One 15]

Pray that Ferrari has already developed a championship winning car...pray. For if there's no performance next year, heads will roll. Dominicalli has been given an ultimatum, his job is at stake, and with this he took the advise of Micheal who we know lost his seat to the Iceman. This is the last dice Luca has thrown, the stupid excuses they have come up with states the obvious.

Shame on you, Brad! So you seem to be spending lots of time at some other forum? Where do all these quotes come from? Anyways, I will accept the challenge for now. Get ready for some punches

Let's get started: "Michel lost his seat to the Iceman"? Errr...yes, whatever...

"Again facts no one denied

[Quiet One 15]

someone that agrees with you...

"When Domenicali says

[AleHop 0]

People are extremely keen on comparing drivers. Raikkonen and Alonso are two extremely competitive drivers, both have won Championships, both have driven for top teams... Raikkonen can be marginally faster than Alonso, Alonso can be marginally better testing than Raikkonen... But whatever one does better than the other, the other has to balance with some other skills. It has to be like that or they wouldn't be so successful drivers.

I think it's just like that for Massa, Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica... Give them the right car and they'll know how to use it. The best thing for us would be to see all of them in the right car battling for the titles. Strenghts vs. weaknesses all of them are balanced in the end. It's probably more important how they can take advantage of the opportunities and how they can handle threats. This is what can decide a very tight title eventually.

When one of the drivers above have the clearly best car of the grid there's little room for the rest of them to beat him.

[yurp 0]

sorry - but this kimi v alonso discussion is getting boring guys.

can we ramp it up or something?

I know I'll get something along the lines of 'well if you don't like it you don't have to read it', but the problem is that I keep reading it in the hope that something interesting has been added and if I want to see something interesting I do have to read it (just to be sure) - so stop boring me to half to death and say something completely stupid will you.

god I hate the off season.

but I still love you all.

EDIT - I mean - this is about as exciting as a discussion over the difference between apples and pears. Both might be great, but it doesn't a good conversation make.

[Ikyrotz 0]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification, but you are neglecting aspects of Alonso's worthiness in your posts. You are equating him with Kimi in all regards except emotional/motivational within the team. Kimi has been proven to be lazy during testing. Alonso, on the other hand, mirrors Mikey the Schu with his dedication to testing. This is a *huge* item in Alonso's favor when you consider how Ferrari now need two drivers committed to testing/developing a car. Keep in mind that getting a good set-up during races is quite different than helping out the testing team. Kimi may be good at race set-up, but no so much at official tests.

EDIT: Another item in Alonso's favor is that he was able to match Mikey the Schu and beat him to his first title. This was not a Mikey that was off-form either. He tussled with the mega-german and won. The mental strength Alonso has from that is telling in his cooler-than-Kimi attitude. I reckon that on-track Alonso is far more of an 'Iceman' than the Finn.

Just a couple of quick comments.

1. With practically no testing anymore, one wonders is it really worth ~20 million euros to get Alonso to do the little testing there is, instead of Kimi, if that is really the only big item in Alonso's favor?

2. Alonso wasn't the only one to beat Mikey the Schu on 2005, I wonder who the other one was...

[Jean Todt 4]

Pray that Ferrari has already developed a championship winning car...pray. For if there's no performance next year, heads will roll. Dominicalli has been given an ultimatum, his job is at stake, and with this he took the advise of Micheal who we know lost his seat to the Iceman. This is the last dice Luca has thrown, the stupid excuses they have come up with states the obvious.

"Again facts no one denied

[Jean Todt 4]

Just a couple of quick comments.

1. With practically no testing anymore, one wonders is it really worth ~20 million euros to get Alonso to do the little testing there is, instead of Kimi, if that is really the only big item in Alonso's favor?

2. Alonso wasn't the only one to beat Mikey the Schu on 2005, I wonder who the other one was...

we all know....

[maure 1]

When one of the drivers above have the clearly best car of the grid there's little room for the rest of them to beat him.

But there is, my friend, there is.

Despite illusions to the contrary, there is a big difference between the skills of different drivers. Oh yeah... just remember the Spielberg-like (deserved hats off to Oh Quiet One here) battle of incompetents between Massa and Hamilton not long ago...

[AleHop 0]

Despite illusions to the contrary, there is a big difference between the skills of different drivers. Oh yeah... just remember the Spielberg-like (deserved hats off to Oh Quiet One here) battle of incompetents between Massa and Hamilton not long ago...

When it comes to handle pressure you can see the big differences, no doubt about it. But ideally they are all great drivers. If everything (car, FIA and cranes for some) works in their favour then...

[Jean Todt 4]

When it comes to handle pressure you can see the big differences, no doubt about it. But ideally they are all great drivers. If everything (car, FIA and cranes for some) works in their favour then...

yea....race fixing and so on...include that too..

[Schumikonen 2]

we all know....

I just found out. I mean I know Schumi didn't finish second on 2005 but I never thought of it in that dimension.

[Autumnpuma 0]

You might have explained this elsewhere but I don't get your meaning here. Indulge me, please.

I'll limit this to Alonso only (I'm not excusing others' involvement). When the McLaren saga broke, it became apparent, with Alonso's testimony and e-mails, that both he and De La Rosa had full knowledge of Stepney feeding information to McLaren personnel and were actively working with the McLaren testing team to try to incorporate that information into the current car/set-up/race strategy. That brand of cheating should have resulted in a ban (not lifetime, however). I understand the principle and worth of granting immunity for testimony, but I don't like obviously guilty parties escaping punishment.

But then I can say karts suit some drivers better than others.

Perhaps, but those drivers that aren't suited to a kart probably aren't in F1

------

Brad, Andres has already answered you better than I could. Besides, you've already read my reasons in past posts so there's no need to repeat them. In the end, Kimi's your driver and all respect to you for it. I'll just give my two centavos' worth on the quotes you posted.

Who says KR is hopeless in developing the car?

Not I. Saying Alonso is better at it isn't the same as as saying Kimi is hopeless at it.

Ferrari

[Schumikonen 2]

Pray that Ferrari has already developed a championship winning car...pray. For if there's no performance next year, heads will roll. Dominicalli has been given an ultimatum, his job is at stake, and with this he took the advise of Micheal who we know lost his seat to the Iceman. This is the last dice Luca has thrown, the stupid excuses they have come up with states the obvious.

"Again facts no one denied

[Schumikonen 2]

Hey guys, check this out...GOLD!!!!

Who says KR is hopeless in developing the car?

Ferrari

[Schumikonen 2]

Nice turn of language here...totally without context. Mikey requested this data to better optimize his driving. Kimi goes off of instinct. Which is better? Mikey has instinct too....and the desire to go beyond that with close scrutiny of the telemetry. Kimi would benefit from matching Mikey.

Noone can say which one is better, computers adn telemery help a lot but not always they are the way to go, why I say this, just for the reason that went telemetry got to my country the driver who got it first also got a brand new three points suspension car and everybody thought telemetry was doing the difference because the guy had several years struggling to win a race in his old car, out team had an older car and they decided to use the telemetry too, that's when the problem started the best set up suggested by the telemetry made the car slower and more difficult to handle to the point that the driver decide after several no to use the telemetry and go back to his own set up and way of driving and he soon found the way to defeat the more experienced driver in a newer/better car with telemetry adn everything.

I can tell that for a driver to adapt to get the best out of set up diffenrent than the one he've been using he will have to work very very hard and spend many hour of testing and with no testing if F1 that maybe impossible unless you are doing that at winter testing and that may not be enough, in that case that I lived those driver took several hour and hundreds of laps to adapt to the new set up and we are talking about a lot less complex car than a F1.

The driver I just told you was the last weekend fighting for the title and the Central American and caribbean Championship running against the best of the area still driving without telemetry and still deafeating those with it.