Autumnpuma

F1 Gets A New Scoring System

54 posts in this topic

Along with a professional, permanent stewarding body comprising an ex-driver element, the new points system are excellent moves from the new President, Jean Todt. The latter gives the minnows and more importantly, their sponsors something to race for and the former is way, way, way, way overdue. I do not see any negatives in the system at all.

I agree, and really, I think F1 fans will complain about everything. Can anyone honestly say this is not a positive step, even if you can argue about how positive it is? And really, points for the top 10 out of 26 starters is fair, a top 10 place deserves some credit.

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I agree, and really, I think F1 fans will complain about everything. Can anyone honestly say this is not a positive step, even if you can argue about how positive it is? And really, points for the top 10 out of 26 starters is fair, a top 10 place deserves some credit.

Putting lipstick on a pig is positive. Giving Tylenol to a guy dying of cancer might be positive. There. We agreed. Now let's move on. Next issue: how to make the damn cars actually race against each other.

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Next issue: how to make the damn cars actually race against each other.

Give the drivers more challenging circuits and convince them that if they actually took some chances on-track they wouldn't face 30 second penalties. It must be remembered that one of the most exciting bits of racing (Arnoux vs Villeneuve) saw both drivers slapped with penalties.

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Give the drivers more challenging circuits and convince them that if they actually took some chances on-track they wouldn't face 30 second penalties. It must be remembered that one of the most exciting bits of racing (Arnoux vs Villeneuve) saw both drivers slapped with penalties.

The circuits are challenging. The problem is that there's way too much Tilke on them. Wow, look! A long straight followed by a very slow corner! Amazing! Tilke is great, but overused.

I agree about the penalties being too limiting at this time, and that's one place that FIA should give careful thought about. It's not as simple as saying "from now on, it's a death match". A very careful balance between reasonable safety and reasonable risks should be found. And among all, a fair, consistent set of rules to distinguish between an Arnoux vs Gilles actual on track battle from a Senna vs Prost "die, mother****er!" approach. Of course, that needs a lot more thought than the scoring system.

Also, the engine/gearbox limits should be modified so as the guys don't spend 70% of the race time just trying to conserve the cars and can actually go there and give 100%. Testing should be allowed so the teams arrive into race day with proper preparation and luck with setups plays a lesser part. They are levelling the field just by dumbing down most concepts. Not the way to go.

Once most of these issues have been at least half addressed, then yes, you can try to find that extra edge of aggresivity from the drivers with a couple of extra points.

If I am told to jump over a 10 meter wide chasm filled with molten lava, the fact that you are willing to pay me 1 million or 2 million dollars won't make much of a difference, unless you allow me some feasible ways to try to do it succesfully first.

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The circuits are challenging. The problem is that there's way too much Tilke on them. Wow, look! A long straight followed by a very slow corner! Amazing! Tilke is great, but overused.

Also, the engine/gearbox limits should be modified so as the guys don't spend 70% of the race time just trying to conserve the cars and can actually go there and give 100%. Testing should be allowed so the teams arrive into race day with proper preparation and luck with setups plays a lesser part. They are levelling the field just by dumbing down most concepts. Not the way to go.

Concerns the bolded part...

This is one of my (many) problems with the refueling ban.

Seems like FIA are taking some steps to encouage competition and then undoing the results with dumb, knee-jerk, cost-cutting measures. This has been happening for some time now. They need to take a consistent stance and work out their priorities. Perhaps Todt will do that.

I'm not bothered about seeing more overtaking, but I would like to see more racing - there's a difference.

And yes - there is too much Tilke in modern F1 too - I've whinged about that before.

Anywho...

You want the drivers to race?

I think we can look to the Navajo (Native American) Indians for guidance here (and various other meso-American peoples who had similar traditions).

They used to have a game which was somewhat akin to basketball (get the ball into a hole in an oval court).

The loosing team was sacrificed.

Edited by adamstrags

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Personally, I dont support expanding the point system up to 25 or 20 or anything like that. I think the current point system is sufficient.

Suggestion however is as follows:

Leave the race points the same.

Motivate the drivers by giving out points for qualifying but shuffle the grid for the race. This will move the fastest drivers in qualifying behind the slower guys and hence introduce overtaking. At the same time, lift the limits on engines and gearboxes so that the fast guys can race the hell out of their cars to get them back to the front of the pack.

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Personally, I dont support expanding the point system up to 25 or 20 or anything like that. I think the current point system is sufficient.

Suggestion however is as follows:

Leave the race points the same.

Motivate the drivers by giving out points for qualifying but shuffle the grid for the race. This will move the fastest drivers in qualifying behind the slower guys and hence introduce overtaking. At the same time, lift the limits on engines and gearboxes so that the fast guys can race the hell out of their cars to get them back to the front of the pack.

Racing is simple and I'm constantly puzzled why everyone wants to complicate it.

Qualifying: Low fuel sessions with all cars running the Chassis they want to enter into the race. Fastest car gets pole.

The Race: Cars start in their qualified positions and the first one to cross the finish line wins.

Really, if we follow that basic template we'll have good racing. Trust me.

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If all the new teams do make it, let the 1st to 10th deal stand. At least make it more worthwhile, 10 points for the winner down to 1 for 10th. Or shall we just rip up ALL the history books? <_<

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Racing is simple and I'm constantly puzzled why everyone wants to complicate it.

Qualifying: Low fuel sessions with all cars running the Chassis they want to enter into the race. Fastest car gets pole.

The Race: Cars start in their qualified positions and the first one to cross the finish line wins.

Really, if we follow that basic template we'll have good racing. Trust me.

Here here.

Too many silly ideas and rules. If 5 year olds can conduct a fair race in the playground, I don't see why the FIA can't.

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With 26 cars on the grid a new points system is needed for these reasons:

- Sponsorship

- Incentive for team

- Ability to attract a fan base to the new teams

- Driver salary

- Battle for points amoung more teams and drivers

- Outside interest and following (ppl don't understand no points)

- More TV interest low down the grid

Well that's some reasons anyway.

Racing is simple and I'm constantly puzzled why everyone wants to complicate it.

Qualifying: Low fuel sessions with all cars running the Chassis they want to enter into the race. Fastest car gets pole.

The Race: Cars start in their qualified positions and the first one to cross the finish line wins.

Really, if we follow that basic template we'll have good racing. Trust me.

+ 1 Agree.

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Racing is simple and I'm constantly puzzled why everyone wants to complicate it.

Qualifying: Low fuel sessions with all cars running the Chassis they want to enter into the race. Fastest car gets pole.

The Race: Cars start in their qualified positions and the first one to cross the finish line wins.

Really, if we follow that basic template we'll have good racing. Trust me.

For whatever else we disagree on, on this we are of a single mind.

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A bit off topic, but I'm not sure it warrants its own thread:

What is Qualifying going to look like in 2010 with the refueling ban? I'm assuming they are no longer running light as possible in Q2 and then loading up race fuel for Q3 -- the times and behavior of the cars would be ridiculously different between Q2 and Q3.

Under this scenario, it could create some interesting sitautions because some cars and drivers may perform better when they are light while others come into their own when weighed down. This means that those struggling to get into Q3 with zero fuel could end up at the top of the grid when they do make it into Q3.

If there is indeed a disparity in light and heavy performance, it will be interesting to see the heavy performers run away at the beginning of the race, then be slowly reeled in by the light performers as the weights come down and the track warms up.

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Q1=Q2=Q3= lighter as possible but those who get into Q3 will start the race with their worn Q3 tyres.

tyres.jpg

Stupid, eh? That's F1 these days!

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Q1=Q2=Q3= lighter as possible but those who get into Q3 will start the race with their worn Q3 tyres.

tyres.jpg

Stupid, eh? That's F1 these days!

Come on, stop complaining: I see plenty of tread left on those tires. rolleyes.gif

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Come on, stop complaining: I see plenty of tread left on those tires. rolleyes.gif

And I'm tired too. smile.gif

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Q1=Q2=Q3= lighter as possible but those who get into Q3 will start the race with their worn Q3 tyres.

Stupid, eh? That's F1 these days!

Interesting, thanks for the info. I guess this means that Q3 will once again see the top teams waiting in the garage until the last minute, then rushing out to do one flying lap and returning to the garage at a snail's pace. Why wear out the tires unnecessarily.

This does create an interesting dynamic about choosing whether you will run hard or soft tires in Q3.

Edited by Silas Talbot

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Interesting, thanks for the info. I guess this means that Q3 will once again see the top teams waiting in the garage until the last minute, then rushing out to do one flying lap and returning to the garage at a snail's pace. Why wear out the tires unnecessarily.

If they are allowed to use just one set of tyres for Q3 then you're right. If they are allowed to use more than one set of tyres and they have to start the race with whatever set of tyres they scored the fastest lap then... I don't know. If they use intermediates and they need to start with extreme wets then... Big ****ed up?

This does create an interesting dynamic about choosing whether you will run hard or soft tires in Q3.

I see nothing interesting on that but I hope you are right.

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Drivers don't need motivation, they need proper cars and tracks witch allow them to pass each other, that or rain.

The new quali system is a last moment sheer-desperation/abandon-all-hope measure due to the fact that the cars will be even closer (due to equal fuel loads) and thus produce even less on-track passing.

Villeneuve vs. Arnoux was about a NA flat 12 vs. a turbo engine, one with (a lot) better driveability the other with (a lot) more top end power, and both these guys were notorious mistake-prone drivers.

The cars no longer have those performance variation Deltas and the drivers aren't that mistake prone anymore (, not if they know what's good for them).

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Drivers don't need motivation, they need proper cars and tracks witch allow them to pass each other, that or rain.

The new quali system is a last moment sheer-desperation/abandon-all-hope measure due to the fact that the cars will be even closer (due to equal fuel loads) and thus produce even less on-track passing.

Villeneuve vs. Arnoux was about a NA flat 12 vs. a turbo engine, one with (a lot) better driveability the other with (a lot) more top end power, and both these guys were notorious mistake-prone drivers.

The cars no longer have those performance variation Deltas and the drivers aren't that mistake prone anymore (, not if they know what's good for them).

Welcome back, DOF but hey, you stole my epiphany as stated (more or less incoherently) in the "downforce restrictions, wings and fins" thread! :P

I agree with you, there is not enough difference a driver can make nowadays to overcome the field levelling, thus, no show.

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Andres, with respect, you're full of sh!t. I say that in a two-guys-chatting-in-a-bar kinda way. I can't prove that you're full of sh!t just yet, though, we have to wait a few months.

This reminds me of the global warming debate. AHHHH! It's getting hotter! It's never going to snow or rain again!! A desert everywhere!!............And yet we have record snowfall in England and the Northeast U.S for two years running.

Winter will always be cold and passing in F1 will always happen. Settle down and enjoy the racing.

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Andres, with respect, you're full of sh!t. I say that in a two-guys-chatting-in-a-bar kinda way. I can't prove that you're full of sh!t just yet, though, we have to wait a few months.

This reminds me of the global warming debate. AHHHH! It's getting hotter! It's never going to snow or rain again!! A desert everywhere!!............And yet we have record snowfall in England and the Northeast U.S for two years running.

Winter will always be cold and passing in F1 will always happen. Settle down and enjoy the racing.

Wait...what kind of bar? Because that could really change the meaning of your words, you know?

As for the point itself? Why you say so? You read my epiphany? :lol: I think I am damn right. I just think I didn't express it the way it is in my head, but what I mean is that today you can't push the limits far enough to get enough speed to overtake. The cars are streamlined almost to the limit, with very small differences between each other (the "double diffuser factor" was worth what? 2/10s a lap? yet it made the cars almost unbeatable). I say make cars that force you to choose in the way DOF put it, for example: either go with better driveability or better power. A driver thus could take the risk of driving a wild bronco, push the limits and get enough speed to overtake, or at least you will see him having the ride of his life. But the cars can't give anymore. Differences are minimal. Track is dusty? So what? Drive, you pussy! Donnington 1993 was all about Senna driving were nobody else dared to drive. He could have crashed badly out there but he took a risk and it paid handsomely. Where is the room for that today?

I don't know if that made my point clearer. The problem was not with the field being too unbalanced last year, it was that it is so balanced and so restricted that a minor imbalance(?) became unsurmountable for cars and drivers. I want less balance, but a difference that could be surmountable on driver's skills and to a lesser extent on car design ingenuity over the season. And the inverse equation over the off season.

I know...I am writing in pig latin :lol:

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Senna had TC and active suspensions witch helped a lot.

It also helped the fact that Prost and Hill weren't so good at feeling the limit, while Schumi's Benetton (who could) lacked those electronics.

Cars passing on the outside have better grip and traction, with today's cars it's worse because they all kind-of equal.

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Wait...what kind of bar? Because that could really change the meaning of your words, you know?

As for the point itself? Why you say so? You read my epiphany? :lol: I think I am damn right. I just think I didn't express it the way it is in my head, but what I mean is that today you can't push the limits far enough to get enough speed to overtake. The cars are streamlined almost to the limit, with very small differences between each other (the "double diffuser factor" was worth what? 2/10s a lap? yet it made the cars almost unbeatable). I say make cars that force you to choose in the way DOF put it, for example: either go with better driveability or better power. A driver thus could take the risk of driving a wild bronco, push the limits and get enough speed to overtake, or at least you will see him having the ride of his life. But the cars can't give anymore. Differences are minimal. Track is dusty? So what? Drive, you pussy! Donnington 1993 was all about Senna driving were nobody else dared to drive. He could have crashed badly out there but he took a risk and it paid handsomely. Where is the room for that today?

I don't know if that made my point clearer. The problem was not with the field being too unbalanced last year, it was that it is so balanced and so restricted that a minor imbalance(?) became unsurmountable for cars and drivers. I want less balance, but a difference that could be surmountable on driver's skills and to a lesser extent on car design ingenuity over the season. And the inverse equation over the off season.

I know...I am writing in pig latin :lol:

Lets assume it's a bar where we can go to the bathroom without a buddy to guard our rear.

I suppose I could comment on the history of F1, and how overtaking has never been commonplace, and bore everyone to death by proving that nothing is intrinsically wrong with the on-track racing of F1. I wont do that.

I will say that yes, the grid is close...separated by, what was it, two tenths or somesuch tiny number? I will also agree that it's difficult for a driver to follow behind another into a braking zone to set up a classical pass up the inside. Too much aero wake from the car ahead. Given all this, and more that I haven't stated, did we see overtaking in '09? Yes. Was it exciting? I thought so, but there were the usual boring moments and races.

In '10, driver's skill will still make a difference in a race....it will be about making no mistakes instead of being better skilled..which I could argue is all part of racecraft anyway.

I understand that you want the action of the 60's through the 80's again, but I really think we're adding to those old races elements and excitement that really weren't there. I just torrented a few seasons from the '80's and I must say, it really felt like watching today's F1. Sure, there were awe-inspiring moments, but I could point to a few of those in the past decade.

Really, everything is fine. Grab a tea or a beer or a whiskey, sit back and enjoy the racing.

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Lets assume it's a bar where we can go to the bathroom without a buddy to guard our rear.

I suppose I could comment on the history of F1, and how overtaking has never been commonplace, and bore everyone to death by proving that nothing is intrinsically wrong with the on-track racing of F1. I wont do that.

I will say that yes, the grid is close...separated by, what was it, two tenths or somesuch tiny number? I will also agree that it's difficult for a driver to follow behind another into a braking zone to set up a classical pass up the inside. Too much aero wake from the car ahead. Given all this, and more that I haven't stated, did we see overtaking in '09? Yes. Was it exciting? I thought so, but there were the usual boring moments and races.

In '10, driver's skill will still make a difference in a race....it will be about making no mistakes instead of being better skilled..which I could argue is all part of racecraft anyway.

I understand that you want the action of the 60's through the 80's again, but I really think we're adding to those old races elements and excitement that really weren't there. I just torrented a few seasons from the '80's and I must say, it really felt like watching today's F1. Sure, there were awe-inspiring moments, but I could point to a few of those in the past decade.

Really, everything is fine. Grab a tea or a beer or a whiskey, sit back and enjoy the racing.

See? That is why I need somebody to give me his opinion, because it lets me refine my thought processes, or discard them (yeah, as if!)

Ok, I see what you read in my opinions but there are some misconceptions there:

1) Like I said before, I don't think more overtaking is the panacea.

2) Like I said before, as well, I think the 60s to 80s action is way overrated. I also watched the old races and found many of them as boring as nowadays.

3) That said, many races still feel way too much like processional parades, a distinction that was usually saved only for tracks like hungaroring or monaco is now the norm. Tilke tracks might look all the same after a while, but most of them should provide plenty of opportunities for some wheel to wheel action. We get none. I'm not talking about Donnington 93 anymore, I am talking little bits. If you want to, forget about the past. Think about what can we do to have harder fought battles despite of whatever happened in the past.

I wont repeat every idea about aero vs mechanical grip and such. But other things like more consistent marshalls to avoid drivers being over zealous about driving in a single line, could help. And, like I said, cars with different personalities which allow drivers with different personalities to show their potential. Button is a clinical driver who needs a perfectly sharp razor? Let him have a car with plenty of electronic gizmos and try to win with consistency. Lewis and Nando like rough rides? Give them cars so powerful that would spin on any other driver's hands and see if they can control them enough to muscle their way to the podium, or die trying. Current rules allow for very limited variations on cars, which means very limited variations on drivers personalities (yes, we know they have very different personalities, but in the end they don't impact as much as they could)

Let the cars and drivers and strategies flourish. Let them bring fan cars so we can all laugh or 6 wheelers and get surprised the one time they actually win on such a contraption. Of course, some rules you should have. But, to make a video game metaphore, stop treating F1 as a shallow FPS (the biggest gun wins) and allow some RPG elements to show up. Let Button be a wizard, Lewis be an archer, Nando be a fighter and Kimi be the village drunkyard.

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