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French Court Overturns Fia Ban On Briatore

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Funny that the FIA's own statutes don't allow them to punish such an instance of cheating by an individual employed by a team. Interesting oversight by Mosley, a former barrister, when dishing out the sanctions. Also funny that everyone involved in a so called worst episode of cheating in sport ever, are all looking likely to receive no concrete, formal punishment; at least, not without a reshuffling of the system.

I suppose the FIA will shortly be introducing licenses for the senior personnel of teams, that way they [the FIA] will have an agreement with them [senior team personnel] as a separate party allowing them within the FIA's jurisdiction, therefore allowing the FIA to exercise control over them. That to me would seem the most sensible solution, and would prevent this case being used as a precedent against the FIA in future cases.

The idea of introducing licenses would be a less publicised (read: embarrassing for the FIA), cheaper and quicker way of preventing Briatore's entrance back into the sport than say, an appeal which is likely to fail, or a change of the statutes and a re-trial. The FIA must play this one carefully I think, although it looks like Mosley wants blood....

It is also important to point out that while the court did broadly agree with most of Briatore's case, and did touch upon the idea of a conflict of interests, or "personal vendetta" as Briatore would put it, on Mosley's part, they still didn't decide to overturn the actual verdict of the case in terms of Briatore's guilt. This suits the trend of courts not intervening in the decisions of sporting bodies, based on the presumption that they know their own business. I think the FIA were lucky not to have the decision annulled completely as their procedure for investigating the scandal (judge, jury and executioner) showed that they didn't know their own business all that well at all.

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Some people are considering Briatore as Ferrari team principle... not a bad idea..:eusa_think:

Not happening. I am an ex Ferrari fan so I don't really care, but I think the transcripts of the pitwall showing how clueless Flavio is did as much damage as anything.

Whats disappointing is that Flavio and Symonds take up a major chunk of credit when it comes to Renault's(or Benetton's) history.

Ah well, they deserve credit for the good and the bad. Flavio was Flavio, but Symonds always seemed like a decent chap. I think the people at Renault, the board members who would have backed their F1 investment for years would be more p**sed off than anyone to find out what happened.

What sucks even more is that Fernando Alonso is out there, free, when he is the cause of all this in the first place.

Yeah I'd want some civilian courts ruling on that, and on how he was let off in the Mclaren affair. A few subpoenas will have the truth out in no time. Did I just agree with you :o

But why punish someone who knew nothing about it? Even NPJ has said this...

Not exactly. http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/piquet-laments-crashgate-fallout-20091006-gjpj.html

"I didn't have to get him involved and he didn't want to get involved. Alonso did not participate in the meeting when the idea of a crash was developed. If he knew about the plan or not, that is a detail I don't know.

"Many people are of the opinion that he knew and others say not."

I just don't buy it. First his involvement io Spy-gate, then his hungary pit stop act in 07 and now Crash-gate. For all we know, it might have been FA's idea in the first place. That man is no saint, I dont believe that Renault played the whole act without telling Fernando a thing, its not like he would deny doing something like this.

I think at best he was clever enough to not get directly involved. Alonso isn't stupid, as he would have to be to not realize what was going on. And he is smart enough (or well advised legally) to only admit to things he can't possibly deny - we saw that in the Mclaren affair.

Yup. We've been through this. It wasn't proved that he had any knowledge, and, more critically, it made no sense to let him know about it. Thus, even if you dislike him enough to think that there is no way that he could not knew, still it would have been a matter of him figuring out what happened. You can't punish Nando for being suspicious and not telling.

Yes you can, if he had even the remotest inkling that the whole thing was set up he should have gone to the FIA.

1) Yes, justice can have a saying in the way a private company runs its business.

They're not a private company, they are a sporting regulatory authority (among other things). I don't know exactly how the whole thing works, but there are limits on their power. They have a monopoly over motorsport.

I don't like the way the whole thing works, allegations of cheating, fraud should be investigated like a case in civil courts. Force people to come up and give sworn testimony, I don't think a lowly F1 mechanic is going to choose perjury to protect his team, I don't think Omert

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Not happening. I am an ex Ferrari fan so I don't really care, but I think the transcripts of the pitwall showing how clueless Flavio is did as much damage as anything.

You cannot be an ex whatever fan unless you never was a real fan.

Ah well, they deserve credit for the good and the bad. Flavio was Flavio, but Symonds always seemed like a decent chap. I think the people at Renault, the board members who would have backed their F1 investment for years would be more p**sed off than anyone to find out what happened.

Only Symonds could know if it had the slightest chance of working out and I would say he planned that one.

Yeah I'd want some civilian courts ruling on that, and on how he was let off in the Mclaren affair. A few subpoenas will have the truth out in no time. Did I just agree with you ohmy.gif

Whatever your opinion about Alonso is, he has no friends enough in F1 to get away with the McLaren affair and the crash gate in a matter of two years.

Not exactly. http://news.smh.com....91006-gjpj.html

"I didn't have to get him involved and he didn't want to get involved. Alonso did not participate in the meeting when the idea of a crash was developed. If he knew about the plan or not, that is a detail I don't know.

"Many people are of the opinion that he knew and others say not."

He said many things, he said Alonso didn't know it somewhere else but the only thing that matters is what he said to the FIA.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qETSncJy8OA

I think at best he was clever enough to not get directly involved. Alonso isn't stupid, as he would have to be to not realize what was going on. And he is smart enough (or well advised legally) to only admit to things he can't possibly deny - we saw that in the Mclaren affair.

Honestly, if we believed what you say then Alonso would be a ****ing genious. Actually, HE IS!

Yes you can, if he had even the remotest inkling that the whole thing was set up he should have gone to the FIA.

Mr. Mosley, I cannot prove it but I think Nelsinho crashed on purpose.

Are you joking?

They have a monopoly over motorsport.

Civil courts can have a saying about monopolies too. eusa_think.gif

Whatever else Ron is, he isn't stupid.

Reading THIS INTERVIEW could make you change your mind.

‘I get a mental pain from looking at things that have not been properly executed,’ he says. ‘Attention to detail is fundamental to how this company has grown. I’m perceived by outsiders as being in some ivory tower.

‘I’m not, I know exactly what is going on. There are people in this organisation, and I don’t say this with any pride, who are frightened of me. That’s because they don’t understand me.

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So we both agree that, without further data, you are free to speculate he knew about this from the beginning while I'm free to speculate that he might at best be suspicious but he was kept out of this, whoever was who actually conocted this scheme.

And I am VERY pleased that you didn't think that Denise Richards was involved in any way. Otherwise you would have forced me to flight up there and slap you. Twice.

:lol:

Ok yes we agree on that. But I have an idea. You me and Denise Richards should get together and slap each other...

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One has to suspect that "Flavio-gate" (Persevere, you're a moron) is going to continue for an extended period, punctuating the 2010 season whenever there is a lull in the action. I'm going to tune it out as more bad soap opera for the moment at least until F.B. announces the formation of his own team for 2011, a joint venture with the Piquets as part of his legal agreement with them.

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Not exactly. http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/piquet-laments-crashgate-fallout-20091006-gjpj.html

"I didn't have to get him involved and he didn't want to get involved. Alonso did not participate in the meeting when the idea of a crash was developed. If he knew about the plan or not, that is a detail I don't know.

"Many people are of the opinion that he knew and others say not."

Ok. So on the basis of this comment - we have to take it at face value. He's basically talking sh*t.

He suggests in the first instance 'He didn't have to get him involved, and he didn't want to get him involved.' this makes me think. Hell, he must know - right?

Then this. "If he knew about the plan or not, that is a detail I don't know." - suggests to me he is trying to implicate Fernando but knows he can't because he's bullsh*tting. He's contradicting himself.

- I take his comment with a pinch of salt. Fernando knew nothing.

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Any notion of Ron being innocent stems from some underlying belief in his dancing with angels with white wings and a halo. It would take monumental stupidity and incompetence on Ron's part to have had spygate happen without him knowing anything about it. Whatever else Ron is, he isn't stupid.

I had forgotten about this thread.

Actually, Cav, I find it somewhat reasonable to believe that 'spygate' happened without Ron's knowledge....mostly because I know what his 'matrix management' is. McLaren isn't run like other teams. At McLaren, almost everything has it's own encapsulated department and those working in the departments are further encapsulated based on their particular job. Only the heads of these micro-micro departments talk to their boss...who in turn talks to their boss who in turn talks to their boss, who in turn talks to Ron Dennis. That's quite a chain of command. Very corporate. And, true to the corporate world, the big-wigs don't really get involved in their sub-departments. Ron likely would have only talked to his upper department heads. That leaves a lot of activity happening at his 'Technology Center' that he would remain unaware of. Remember that the information was only really proven to have been used by some member of the R&D and testing staff. And, of course, two smelly, bad-breath, Spanish dead-beat drivers. (I threw the nationality in there to add a bit of spice...sure to rile up AleHop).

Even the bit of Ferrari information that concerned when Kimi was going to have is pit-stop could have been done at the race within Fernando's 'team' (this includes his testing team) and would not have involved Ron. Alonso's race engineer would get the information on Kimi's pit-stop, then, without telling Ron the source, relay that he was changing Alonso's pit window. Now, this may not have happened, but it's a reasonable possibility.

EDIT: As to Ron's intelligence, well he is at heart a simple mechanic with some business savvy. Max has called him a dim bulb and I think he's overstating but essentially correct. Many reporters who have known Ron for years and count him as a friend admit that he wants to present himself as smarter than he really is. I can easily believe that he'd develop his 'matrix' system and then, stupidly, place all his trust in it rather than just walk around and talk to his employees.

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I had forgotten about this thread.

Actually, Cav, I find it somewhat reasonable to believe that 'spygate' happened without Ron's knowledge....mostly because I know what his 'matrix management' is. McLaren isn't run like other teams. At McLaren, almost everything has it's own encapsulated department and those working in the departments are further encapsulated based on their particular job. Only the heads of these micro-micro departments talk to their boss...who in turn talks to their boss who in turn talks to their boss, who in turn talks to Ron Dennis. That's quite a chain of command. Very corporate. And, true to the corporate world, the big-wigs don't really get involved in their sub-departments. Ron likely would have only talked to his upper department heads. That leaves a lot of activity happening at his 'Technology Center' that he would remain unaware of. Remember that the information was only really proven to have been used by some member of the R&D and testing staff. And, of course, two smelly, bad-breath, Spanish dead-beat drivers. (I threw the nationality in there to add a bit of spice...sure to rile up AleHop).

Even the bit of Ferrari information that concerned when Kimi was going to have is pit-stop could have been done at the race within Fernando's 'team' (this includes his testing team) and would not have involved Ron. Alonso's race engineer would get the information on Kimi's pit-stop, then, without telling Ron the source, relay that he was changing Alonso's pit window. Now, this may not have happened, but it's a reasonable possibility.

EDIT: As to Ron's intelligence, well he is at heart a simple mechanic with some business savvy. Max has called him a dim bulb and I think he's overstating but essentially correct. Many reporters who have known Ron for years and count him as a friend admit that he wants to present himself as smarter than he really is. I can easily believe that he'd develop his 'matrix' system and then, stupidly, place all his trust in it rather than just walk around and talk to his employees.

Amen Oh Prophet, amen,

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I had forgotten about this thread.

Actually, Cav, I find it somewhat reasonable to believe that 'spygate' happened without Ron's knowledge....mostly because I know what his 'matrix management' is. McLaren isn't run like other teams. At McLaren, almost everything has it's own encapsulated department and those working in the departments are further encapsulated based on their particular job. Only the heads of these micro-micro departments talk to their boss...who in turn talks to their boss who in turn talks to their boss, who in turn talks to Ron Dennis. That's quite a chain of command. Very corporate. And, true to the corporate world, the big-wigs don't really get involved in their sub-departments. Ron likely would have only talked to his upper department heads. That leaves a lot of activity happening at his 'Technology Center' that he would remain unaware of. Remember that the information was only really proven to have been used by some member of the R&D and testing staff. And, of course, two smelly, bad-breath, Spanish dead-beat drivers. (I threw the nationality in there to add a bit of spice...sure to rile up AleHop).

Even the bit of Ferrari information that concerned when Kimi was going to have is pit-stop could have been done at the race within Fernando's 'team' (this includes his testing team) and would not have involved Ron. Alonso's race engineer would get the information on Kimi's pit-stop, then, without telling Ron the source, relay that he was changing Alonso's pit window. Now, this may not have happened, but it's a reasonable possibility.

EDIT: As to Ron's intelligence, well he is at heart a simple mechanic with some business savvy. Max has called him a dim bulb afund I think he's overstating but essentially correct. Many reporters who have known Ron for years and count him as a friend admit that he wants to present himself as smarter than he really is. I can easily believe that he'd develop his 'matrix' system and then, stupidly, place all his trust in it rather than just walk around and talk to his employees.

Amazing post!

For the bold parts :clap3:

This might be a little out of context, but a friend of mine once said:

Ferrari is a myth, Mclaren is a company.

Never found better words to describe the two !

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I had forgotten about this thread.

Actually, Cav, I find it somewhat reasonable to believe that 'spygate' happened without Ron's knowledge....mostly because I know what his 'matrix management' is. McLaren isn't run like other teams. At McLaren, almost everything has it's own encapsulated department and those working in the departments are further encapsulated based on their particular job. Only the heads of these micro-micro departments talk to their boss...who in turn talks to their boss who in turn talks to their boss, who in turn talks to Ron Dennis. That's quite a chain of command. Very corporate. And, true to the corporate world, the big-wigs don't really get involved in their sub-departments. Ron likely would have only talked to his upper department heads. That leaves a lot of activity happening at his 'Technology Center' that he would remain unaware of. Remember that the information was only really proven to have been used by some member of the R&D and testing staff. And, of course, two smelly, bad-breath, Spanish dead-beat drivers. (I threw the nationality in there to add a bit of spice...sure to rile up AleHop).

Even the bit of Ferrari information that concerned when Kimi was going to have is pit-stop could have been done at the race within Fernando's 'team' (this includes his testing team) and would not have involved Ron. Alonso's race engineer would get the information on Kimi's pit-stop, then, without telling Ron the source, relay that he was changing Alonso's pit window. Now, this may not have happened, but it's a reasonable possibility.

EDIT: As to Ron's intelligence, well he is at heart a simple mechanic with some business savvy. Max has called him a dim bulb and I think he's overstating but essentially correct. Many reporters who have known Ron for years and count him as a friend admit that he wants to present himself as smarter than he really is. I can easily believe that he'd develop his 'matrix' system and then, stupidly, place all his trust in it rather than just walk around and talk to his employees.

Comes down to your faith in Ron doesn't it? For me he is the sleazy b#####d who fixed a 1997 championship deciding race, pardon me for having limited faith in his credibility.

We never found out the extent to which the information was used and how many people were involved. All we know is at every ****ing step things looked worse for Mclaren, until they stopped fighting and gave in.

You're already forgetting the facts of the case, Mike Coughlan was no small fish and I doubt if there were any steps in the chain of command between him and Ron.

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Mike, some posts ago you said that the FIA ruling was irrelevant. I forgot to reply to that comment at the time. In the meantime, even more things showed up that show this isn't just a matter of an ex team principal and a former FIA president.

Today's article on Pitpass is an example on the aftermaths of the French Court's decision.

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/328788/World_Council_member_questions_FIA_appeal/

A sample:

The upshot, according to Briatore is that "in the last 15 years, everything is illegal", he said, adding "every decisioon with McLaren, with the drivers, with everything" Ouch!

Ouch indeed. The article is worth reading, as it shows the shockwaves spreading from a war between two culprits of different felonies which made everybody think they were just the past, or people not worth the bother, to a fundamental questioning of the very foundations of the FIA.

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Comes down to your faith in Ron doesn't it? For me he is the sleazy b#####d who fixed a 1997 championship deciding race, pardon me for having limited faith in his credibility.

We never found out the extent to which the information was used and how many people were involved. All we know is at every ****ing step things looked worse for Mclaren, until they stopped fighting and gave in.

You're already forgetting the facts of the case, Mike Coughlan was no small fish and I doubt if there were any steps in the chain of command between him and Ron.

Interesting that you bring up the facts of the case but then resort to speculation to tie Ron into it. We really don't know, by facts alone, the extent of Ron's knowledge. But I hear you, and I think your speculations have a good chance of being correct. So do mine, of course.

Mike, some posts ago you said that the FIA ruling was irrelevant. I forgot to reply to that comment at the time. In the meantime, even more things showed up that show this isn't just a matter of an ex team principal and a former FIA president.

Today's article on Pitpass is an example on the aftermaths of the French Court's decision.

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/328788/World_Council_member_questions_FIA_appeal/

A sample:

Ouch indeed. The article is worth reading, as it shows the shockwaves spreading from a war between two culprits of different felonies which made everybody think they were just the past, or people not worth the bother, to a fundamental questioning of the very foundations of the FIA.

I'll read it. And I freely admit that my take on the legalities here could be fatally flawed. Ah well.....

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