What?!? Eddie Opens His Mouth??

[HandyNZL 1]

Some interesting opinion from Irv the Swerve here:

[Medilloni 6]

Some interesting opinion from Irv the Swerve here:

Jenson has entered the lion's den, mused the Irishman who triumphed in four grands prix himself for Ferrari in 1999 speaking to ESPN.It was madness of him to move. He thinks he's going to be able to eathis steak, and that's not going to be the case I think he's going toget murdered!

It's the worst decision he could have made. Theonly reason I can think of is that he didn't want to stay at Brawn withRosberg, who's not as highly-rated as Lewis but might be just as quick. Jenson may have thought that it's better to get beaten by Lewis thanget beaten by Nico.

Rubens Barrichello is a good little peddler and murdered Jenson in the second half of lastseason. Michael never got murdered by anyone. Lewis came into his first year in F1 and beat a double world champion in Fernando Alonso that's a class act. If you look at Jenson's career, Ralf Schumacher beat him, Giancarlo Fisichella beat him and Rubens beat him. There are too many races where he hasn't performed, to say he's at the level of any of those guys.

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To a degree I agree with him - I have no bias here, say like Insider will - I think Hamilton will beat him on points. I also agree that it was a dumb idea to move (we'd have been spared Schumi for a start!! ). But I do think Button is a better driver through last year, but in a straight fight, I have to think that Hamilton will get to the chequers first 7 out of 10 times.

What say y'all?

He could be right, though I think his reasoning behind why he left is wrong ("...he'd rather get beaten by Lewis than Nico..."), I think the negotiations, or lack of them, put the wind up Jense and he felt he had to go whilst he had a good choice of team. Perhaps when he was offered the McLaren drive he thought this would be the best chance he'd ever have with a team proven to get on top of problems quickly - he was certainly hacked off with the way the Brawn evolved from mid season onwards.

Is Jense a faster driver than Lewis? I don't think so, yet. Love him or hate him, behind the wheel Lewis is massively strong - but in a Gilles Villeneuve sort of way... balls out, but with overdriving occasionally getting in the way - looks magic, gets you plenty of passionate fans, but sideways is slower 90% of the time.

Will he be capable of beating Lewis over a season? I think it's possible... IF he can make sure his head doesn't drop, if he can capitalise on Lewis's weaknesses (usually connected with car sympathy and the odd rash decision). In a nutshell, I think JB will need to drive at his all-time best in every practice session and race, but maybe he learnt something from last year that's improved him.... I'd like to think so. [Handy: If JB hasn't changed, then I think your bit in bold is right]

One thing I do believe, his side of the garage at Brawn were always, from years ago to now,massively weak (yes, even though they won, I think this was JB's major weakness), and I really hope the team he has at Macca can get more out of him - then, at least, I don't think there will be any walk-over.

Irvine? Wish I had some of the filly's he's had, but he was an average driver at best, and a top gobsh1te

[Insider 0]

Sour grapes. An arrogant man with a massive chip on his shoulder. Apart from coming second in the WDC in 1999, he achieved little, apart from lapping Senna for which he received a smack in his huge gob. He got beaten by Barrichello at Jordan and Michael at Ferrari. He had some raw pace but no brain - the latter attribute clearly hasn't changed. He left Ferrari for Jaguar - smart move! A career comparison:

Button

Starts - 170

WDC - 1

Wins - 7

Podiums - 24

Poles - 7

Points - 327

Fastest Laps - 2

Irvine

Starts - 147

WDC - 0

Wins - 4

Podiums - 26

Poles - 0

Points - 191

Fastest Laps - 1

[Insider 0]

The longest stints in the fastest car will take the WDC this year, I believe. I think Meds has hit the nail on the head with regard to JB's crew at Brawn. There were some shockers last year over tyre choices and the like and many more clangers down the years. It is probably a positive that Shov isn't going with him though I doubt the Red Baron will tolerate any tardiness or slow solutions. Is he a match for Lewis? I think he has his measure as long as he keeps his head down and his mind off what's waiting at home.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Back in my teenage/early twenties, I had a thing for Eddie. But I always said if I met him, I'd gag him first.

I think Jens knows he's stepped into the lions den. He's got the biggest balls in F1 at the moment. What did Eddie achieve? Letting his balls be nailed to the wall by Ferrari.

I know which one I'm betting on.

So Jens. Let him talk. He did nothing. Laugh it off dude.

[AleHop 0]

Will he be capable of beating Lewis over a season? I think it's possible... IF he can make sure his head doesn't drop, if he can capitalise on Lewis's weaknesses (usually connected with car sympathy and the odd rash decision). In a nutshell, I think JB will need to drive at his all-time best in every practice session and race, but maybe he learnt something from last year that's improved him.... I'd like to think so. [Handy: If JB hasn't changed, then I think your bit in bold is right]

Button will have to face a fact soon in McLaren. Hamilton is their bet for the future and they would have never hired him if they had the smallest doubt about who would beat who next year. So they're going to support their pearl and unless Button makes an amazing start of the season, lewisterics apart, we all know who's going win and why.

[LabradoRacer 2]

Looking at the thread title, the first thought that came to my mind was that Max was standing next to him with his pants at the ankles.

[dribbler 6]

I have no idea what Eddie's ability behind the wheel has to do with his ability to give an honest and frank opinion on the way he sees things. At least having been an F1 driver and driven alongside a very good one he is qualified to identify good, bad and indifferent. Although a little undiplomatic in the way he has expressed his opinion on this (nothing new there then) I happen to agree with him.

[dribbler 6]

What did Eddie achieve? Letting his balls be nailed to the wall by Ferrari.

What I like about Eddie is he never said he was the best (in fact he always alluded to the fact that he thought Michael was) but he was a canny operator. He played the team game, amassed a big collection of Ferrari's and a lot of wealth, of which he has invested very cleverly indeed.

Gobby? Yes, but also smart. Don't dismiss his opinion just because he was not a great in F1.

[Kopite Girl 0]

What I like about Eddie is he never said he was the best (in fact he always alluded to the fact that he thought Michael was) but he was a canny operator. He played the team game, amassed a big collection of Ferrari's and a lot of wealth, of which he has invested very cleverly indeed.

Gobby? Yes, but also smart. Don't dismiss his opinion just because he was not a great in F1.

Crap! I'd rather a driver be in it for the love of getting behind the wheel and going racing, rather than settling for 2nd best, amassing a fortune, then shooting his trap off about something he's going to be wrong about anyway.

But then, you know me. You knew I'd say that. Aim for the top and you'll get there.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Eddie deserved the last WDC won by Mika Hakkinen. He drove better tham Michael and put a lot of pressure on him -do you remember Silverstone crash? maybe Micheal

[Quiet One 15]

Eddie deserved the last WDC won by Mika Hakkinen. He drove better tham Michael and put a lot of pressure on him -do you remember Silverstone crash? maybe Micheal

[HandyNZL 1]

Eddie deserved the last WDC won by Mika Hakkinen. He drove better tham Michael and put a lot of pressure on him -do you remember Silverstone crash? maybe Micheal

[dribbler 6]

Eddie deserved the last WDC won by Mika Hakkinen. He drove better tham Michael and put a lot of pressure on him -do you remember Silverstone crash? maybe Micheal

[JHS 1]

Whilst I don't believe Button is as driver that isn't talented, I agree with Eddie here. In my mind he's made a big mistake joining McLewis ermm, sorry, McLaren. I think as McLaren inevitably favour Hamilton as the season progresses the squablles will start and that's what the fun has. I don't see Button winning many races at McLaren, but I think he could have done if he'd stopped at Mercedes despite what The Insider's fantasies would have us believe.

[cavallino 2]

Sour grapes.

For once I disagree with you. I like Irvine for the fact that he's an average F1 driver prepared to admit that he was an average driver - we don't get too many of those. I mean, how awesome would it be that if instead of everyone having to tiptoe around any mention of Brundle's F1 career on BBC/ITV, Brundle came out and said "well as F1 drivers go I was a bit Sh#te ".

I think Eddie's reaction is like if Button went to an old friend and said "Hey so I signed up at Mclaren to drive alongside Lewis", the friend would go "dude are you f$%king crazy?". Anyone would.

I have a higher opinion of Button's skills than him, but he has a point.

I think Meds has hit the nail on the head with regard to JB's crew at Brawn. There were some shockers last year over tyre choices and the like and many more clangers down the years. It is probably a positive that Shov isn't going with him though I doubt the Red Baron will tolerate any tardiness or slow solutions. Is he a match for Lewis? I think he has his measure as long as he keeps his head down and his mind off what's waiting at home.

Yup. And it would explain his decision to move. Though I am sure he didn't see the Mercedes move coming. That would have made him think twice. Schumacher and Button, my two favourite drivers in the same team. I wish =(

Maybe I was too paranoid at the time, but I always thought that MS actually conspired with Mika to make Eddie loose that championship.

I think noone wanted to win the championship that year. I can imagine Mika and Irvine meeting for a drink after every race going - "you take it", "no, you take it", "no I got the last one, you can have this one"

Bullsh!t. Look at Ferrari's actions at Sepang '99.

And they told Michael to get his a## back on the grid and drive, instead of sitting at home since it was too late for him to win the championship anyway.

[Rainmaster 7]

I broadly agree with Irvine's review of Button, and as pointed out by Dribbler, Irvine's driving ability is no reflection on his ability to form and express an opinion.

I also fully agree with medilloni's response though (which should probably be statutory on this forum).

[yurp 0]

I'm not quite sure why Eddie's comments have produced such ire from Button fans.

Insecurity perhaps?

A sneaking suspicion that he might be right?

Whether or not he's a loud mouth is irrelevent. Whether or not he's a better or worse driver is irrelevent (we are all worse drivers than Eddie Irvine, so why should our opinions carry any more weight than his?)

I happen to think that he's (for the most part) quite correct.

You may well disagree, but give reasons other than Eddie's own record for doing so.

I wish people learnt the meaning of ad hominem attack and tried to avoid it a bit more - it gets very boring when any point at hand is lost in a tirade of irrelevent verbiage.

[HandyNZL 1]

Hey. I AM a better driver than Eddie. Thank. You. Very. Much.

[Medilloni 6]

I'm not quite sure why Eddie's comments have produced such ire from Button fans.

Insecurity perhaps?

For some, possibly.

There are those that don't understand why some are fans of drivers, some are fans of teams - there's nothing to understand, personal preferences and all that.

A sneaking suspicion that he might be right?

Of course, I don't think many would dispute it's going to be an uphill trip for Button.

Whether or not he's a load mouth is irrelevent. Whether or not he's a better or worse driver is irrelevent (we are all worse drivers than Eddie Irvine, so why should our opinions carry any more weight than his?)

It is irrelevant, agreed, and he's entitled to his opinion. Other people are entitled to theirs too.

I happen to think that he's (for the most part) quite correct.

There you go, you got your own opinion/thought in

You may well disagree, but give reasons other than Eddie's own record for doing so.

Bollocks Adam. You got your opinion in and didn't give a reason, you just said, "I happen to think...". Which is fair dinkum.

I wish people learnt the meaning of ad hominem attack and tried to avoid it a bit more - it gets very boring when any point at hand is lost in a tirade of irrelevent verbiage.

You can wish all you like, this is a forum - this one in particular is well known for its members voicing their opinions, and that's what people here have done. As for the ad hominem bit, the forum would fall apart dude - everyone is biased to some extent, and logic rarely raises it's head.... if unbiased logic is what you're really after, then you'd have posted this in every Kimi, Alonso, Hamster <insert fave driver> thread

I was a bit surprised you posted this to be honest, then I realised you and I get our period about the same time

[pabloh20 1]

I'm not quite sure why Eddie's comments have produced such ire from Button fans.

Insecurity perhaps?

A sneaking suspicion that he might be right?

Whether or not he's a load mouth is irrelevent. Whether or not he's a better or worse driver is irrelevent (we are all worse drivers than Eddie Irvine, so why should our opinions carry any more weight than his?)

I happen to think that he's (for the most part) quite correct.

You may well disagree, but give reasons other than Eddie's own record for doing so.

I wish people learnt the meaning of ad hominem attack and tried to avoid it a bit more - it gets very boring when any point at hand is lost in a tirade of irrelevent verbiage.

I always thought Irv the Swerve was ok and obviously he'e entitled to his opinions, he may be right, he may not, time will tell. However, he did talk an awful lot of bollocks when he was in F1, so I can't see that improving since he's been out of F1

[cavallino 2]

I always thought Irv the Swerve was ok and obviously he'e entitled to his opinions, he may be right, he may not, time will tell. However, he did talk an awful lot of bollocks when he was in F1, so I can't see that improving since he's been out of F1

He speaks bollocks, but I think it's honest bollocks That's better than dishonest agenda driven bollocks. I think he actually believes what he says.

[pabloh20 1]

He speaks bollocks, but I think it's honest bollocks That's better than dishonest agenda driven bollocks. I think he actually believes what he says.

Very true

[yurp 0]

For some, possibly.

There are those that don't understand why some are fans of drivers, some are fans of teams - there's nothing to understand, personal preferences and all that.

Of course, I don't think many would dispute it's going to be an uphill trip for Button.

It is irrelevant, agreed, and he's entitled to his opinion. Other people are entitled to theirs too.

There you go, you got your own opinion/thought in

Bollocks Adam. You got your opinion in and didn't give a reason, you just said, "I happen to think...". Which is fair dinkum.

You can wish all you like, this is a forum - this one in particular is well known for its members voicing their opinions, and that's what people here have done. As for the ad hominem bit, the forum would fall apart dude - everyone is biased to some extent, and logic rarely raises it's head.... if unbiased logic is what you're really after, then you'd have posted this in every Kimi, Alonso, Hamster <insert fave driver> thread

I was a bit surprised you posted this to be honest, then I realised you and I get our period about the same time

2 points to be made here...

First, to deal with yours...

Would you not agree that there is a huge difference between saying "I think it's ..." rather than simply "It is ..."?

There is a gulf of reason between those two approaches.

If you don't see the difference, then you are in good company.

Yes, we all hold opinions, but when we misrepresent those opinions as fact, we remove all need for evidence.

If we then (to get back to my original point) use irrelevencies to combat an opposing point of view, there is simply no point in the discussion.

Let me think of a metaphor...

It's like saying that Einstein was wrong about e=mc^2 because he had silly hair.

That whole sentence contains an opinion stated as fact (that his hair was silly) and more importantly (since this was my original point) uses an irrelevent piece of information to refute an unrelated idea.

[Medilloni 6]

Would you not agree that there is a huge difference between saying "I think it's ..." rather than simply "It is ..."?

There is a gulf of reason between those two approaches.

If you don't see the difference, then you forfeit the respect garnered from your previous post.

An opinion or a factual statement, yes, I get infuriated sometimes when people get these mixed up - but I usually ignore the post rather than argue the toss, perhaps not everyone is as exact/ing as you seem to be asking them to be - but it is a forum, not a classroom, and if the posts in this thread annoy you, then why not just ignore them, as I should have done yours

It's flattering that some may have thought my other post was smashin (no sarcasm intended), but not important - it's just a public nattering place where people show themselves warts 'n all, and I haven't seen anyone here that hasn't posted garbage yet - you and I included (I'll provide sources of both if you like )

Yes, we all hold opinions, but when we misrepresent those opinions as fact and then (to get back to my original point) use irrelevencies to combat an opposing point of view, there is simply no point in the discussion.

I did agree with you earlier, agreed once more. It's annoying, but it won't stop happening - e.g.I got sick to death of trying to have discussions about diffusers this time last year because no-one would back up their comments with sources that could add to the conversation rather than saying they were illegal when they had no idea what they looked like in detail thensleves - but talk about drivers will always bring emotion into the equation, so not much point in constantly pushing for unbiased opinion, it'd be hard to find. I think.

Let me think of a metaphor...

It's like saying that Einstein was wrong about e=mc^2 because he had silly hair.

That whole sentence contains an opinion stated as fact (that his hair was silly) and more importantly (since this was my original point) uses an irrelevent piece of information to refute an unrelated statement.

Nice analogy, but you Einstein fanboys get right up my nose, why can't you support teams instead?