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mikathegreat2

Pre-Season Testing

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Anyway you have to admit that posting a somewhat good time for a new team without wind tunnel is not an easy task and that is something that I can read from this test, if a car doesn't work it will never post good times no matter how light the car it because some time even the weigh is needed to post a good lap, I don't know who is fastest right now and I am not trying to find out but I know that if you posted a good time is because you have a good car, last year people were speculating about Brown's pace but the pace was real and they are the champs so something can be read in those test.

Yes, it's good news for Virgin. Posting any time close to the average is good these days, and posting several is even more important. That is as much as you can make from test times.

Rant which I won't post in the rant thread: All in all, the limited testing time is beyond all reasonable cost saving measure. This system is so artificial that ends up hurting teams regardless of budget. These sort of arbitrary rules tend not to level the field but just mix it up randomly, which defies the purpose of any competition. If teams/drivers will only get a handful of testing days for their ultra precise cars and setups, and worst of all subject to weather changes, then they could as well just flip a coin to decide who will be the season's winner.

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As some of you posted before it is impossible to say which is the best car. If we had good weather next week we could see a better picture about performance but it seems it will be again raining and cold. It seems reliability won't be a problem for the big teams, you miss a GP and your rival gets 25 points. Reliability will be very important both for cars and drivers.

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Yes, it's good news for Virgin. Posting any time close to the average is good these days, and posting several is even more important. That is as much as you can make from test times.

Rant which I won't post in the rant thread: All in all, the limited testing time is beyond all reasonable cost saving measure. This system is so artificial that ends up hurting teams regardless of budget. These sort of arbitrary rules tend not to level the field but just mix it up randomly, which defies the purpose of any competition. If teams/drivers will only get a handful of testing days for their ultra precise cars and setups, and worst of all subject to weather changes, then they could as well just flip a coin to decide who will be the season's winner.

you are right once again but I was thinking about Virgin and their success so far with this no wind tunnel adventure, wouldn't this if they finally do a very good job over the season lead to the point of banning wind tunnels as another crazy saving cost idea like the limited test?

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Yeah, all in all a good day's testing. Lewis/McLaren look to be on the pace and I've been thinking about Virgin. Why do you like them Tommy? At first I was hoping they'd be rubbish because Branson seemed pretty selfish and annoying when at Brawn last year but the other day I read they're the first team to design their car purely by CFD. Their car is a great test of innovation, and sort of similar to my work, so I think that means I actually want them to do well, despite Branson.

Of course it's harder to design a car using only computer simulations and I guess the real reason they did it is to save money. That said, with their budget and inexperience, they'd be at the back anyway even with wind tunnels. If you put a top driver in their car, it'd probably be half a second a lap faster for a start. And some experienced engineers might give them another 0.5s/lap too. Add in a larger budget a la Ferrari and I reckon they're giving away maybe 2s/lap even before considering the lack of wind tunnel testing. After all, that Ferrari is probably the result of more computer time than the Virgin Racing racer as well as having wind tunnel time.

Since Lewis was probably lighter than Di Grassi on his hot lap, probably the computer simulations have got them well within 1s/lap of a car designed with the same budget but using wind tunnels. Not bad for some computer calculations imho. Anyway this is pure speculation but surely that team is showing some of the most interesting innovation we've seen for a while. Maybe soon we can compare them to similar budget/experience teams who used a combination of CFD and wind tunnels. That will be exciting, won't it?

I will soon download that CFD thing through torrents and start my own team....:naughty:

Yes Muzza...its exciting...

What I am really pleased to see the pace of Force India,

No no, not just because it has the Indian connection, a win or two would be enough to attract the attention of youngsters and sponsorships not just in F1 but to the Motorsports itself...Its high time my country seriously opened up to motorsports.....just having a team for a namesake and an F1 track in the future is not enough....

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You almost said all, it is very interesting to watch how they do on track with that car and without wind tunnel, I actually think they are closer than what it shows this test because they didn't have the same testing time as the rest and they are testing with a rookie like you said, I think that to design a F1 car like that is a big gamble but it looks like it paid for them or maybe (which is the most probable) I don't know anything about computer simulation and design while they were pretty sure of what they were doing, I would love to see the Virgin people's smile after today result after what we could find yestarday in the press about how stupid it was to design a car without wind tunnel and the comedy (as the press call it) they were mounting on track loosing the front wing.

With all this it looks like they are ready to give us some lessons about design and management of a new team, I can't wait to see what Glock can do with this car, if he does a good job many people with be eaten their words like I will be doing if Lotus comes out with a good package too, their car looks like is not going to work with all those straight line, IMO it looks like aero deficient, I see and I can only think about drag, I hope I am wrong for the sake of the show, I would like to see a very competitive season with Ferrari coming dead last or even further back. :P

Haha yeah Ferrari dead last would be nice. Let's hope everyone but them is sandbagging. I'm surprised more people don't talk about VR's innovation. It's quite a cool idea that you can design something as intricate as an F1 car purely by thinking and theory rather than experiment aka trial and error like a monkey writes Shakespeare.

Testing times are still just a meaningless number. With the wet weather, varying testing programmes and fuel loads, all you have to do is get your vintage minardi on track, fuel it lightly and it will be on top of the charts in no time.

My only source of insight into the tests is James Allen. ANd he sparingly gives any hints (as I guess he is barely getting any from the mechanics as well). He mentioned that a lot of sandbagging is going on at the moment, which means that any car could be the fastest come Melbourne. I'd say Campos Meta and USF1 are leading the sandbagging lot so far so...who knows? :whistling:

Anyways, the most impressive is the number of laps Massa has done so far. That is one car that has been thoroughly tested so whatever its real performance is compared to the others, at least it was probably the team that ended up with most significant that to improve their car, if needed.

As for lap times, as JA points out, it's not about which one made the fastest but who placed the most laps with consistently good times. So far he singled out Alonso and Schumi. Alonso did 48 laps all consistently around 1.21s and Schumi likewise with 30 odd laps at 1.23. Massa today allegedly did a session until he ran out of fuel (thus the stoppage) but that was on purpose as they were testing how long could he go with a full tank. His times at the beginning and end were all around 1.23, too.

Yeah I agree. Maybe my calculations are more speculative than I said, but still it seems Virgin are in the expected ball-park, which is impressive considering they designed the whole car in their heads! I was surprised how accurate the testing times from last year turned out to be and I also tried to keep my estimates very conservative. I mean even if Lewis was sandbagging when he set his best time, VR have done hardly any running so far. And I'm not convinced Lewis was sandbagging all that much on his best lap, considering it was some 2-4s/lap faster than the long runs you mention.

You work on CFD?? I'm thinking of basing my project on it. :D

No, I do computer simulations in another area: quantum rather than fluid mechanics. The goal is to design (eg) medicines rather than cars without experiments. As in F1, testing new drugs is a very slow, laborious and expensive process so there's lots of interest in being able to predict and explain how they will work in advance. And as in F1, we don't yet know how to do it without experiments - but that's the fun of it!

What's your project on? Don't tell me you're chief designer at Campos F1?? :D

Yes, it's good news for Virgin. Posting any time close to the average is good these days, and posting several is even more important. That is as much as you can make from test times.

Rant which I won't post in the rant thread: All in all, the limited testing time is beyond all reasonable cost saving measure. This system is so artificial that ends up hurting teams regardless of budget. These sort of arbitrary rules tend not to level the field but just mix it up randomly, which defies the purpose of any competition. If teams/drivers will only get a handful of testing days for their ultra precise cars and setups, and worst of all subject to weather changes, then they could as well just flip a coin to decide who will be the season's winner.

:lol:

I don't mind the testing ban. The rules are the same for everyone and it's more of a challenge this way. Good technical minds like erm Lewis should be able to find a workable set up faster than everyone else. If you let them tootle round all year even the likes of Alonso will stumble upon a good set up.

My objection to it is that with less running, fitness is less of an issue.

I will soon download that CFD thing through torrents and start my own team....:naughty:

Yes Muzza...its exciting...

What I am really pleased to see the pace of Force India,

No no, not just because it has the Indian connection, a win or two would be enough to attract the attention of youngsters and sponsorships not just in F1 but to the Motorsports itself...Its high time my country seriously opened up to motorsports.....just having a team for a namesake and an F1 track in the future is not enough....

:lol:

Yeah we can all be designers now! My rear wing is bigger than yours. :harhar:

I'm pleased to see your team doing well too. Go F*** India! :D

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Some team's fastest laps were set on the lap before the car was purposely allowed to run out of fuel. I understand this was the case with Schumi and Rosberg. Buemi certainly did it once and stopped Button finishing another hot lap after posting a 1:20. Obviously, some of these 'fuel consumption' tests are planned, other sudden stops are spoiling tactics and the FIA should keep a close eye on such chicanery. Hamilton's fastest lap was done on fumes, at the end of a series of fast laps. The fact that he was a second quicker than Jens has to be qualified by the fact that JB still had four laps of fuel on board when he set his fastest time. Because of such variables, it will be hard to evaluate who is looking good and who isn't. With only just over a second covering the ten best overall times, the whole deal is something of a lottery.

1. Hamilton/McLaren 1:19.583

2. Alguersuari/Toro Rosso 1:19.919

3. Kobayashi/Sauber 1:19.950

4. Buemi/Toro Rosso 1:20.026

5. Sutil /Force India 1:20.180

6. Barrichello/Williams 1:20.341

7. Kubica/Renault 1:20.358

8. M.Schumacher/Mercedes 1:20.613

9. Button/McLaren 1:20.618

10. Hulkenberg/Williams 1:20.629

The fact that the Bulls aren't in that group and Webber is talking them up despite it, makes me believe they may have good race pace but I expected a little more from them over the four days. Things still break on that car and it needs to stop if they are to take a title. STR seem to have a decent, debutante, self-designed car and Alguesuari is beginning to show the electric pace I always thought he had. Kobayashi could be Japan's first WDC if he gets anywhere near a top four car but he seems to have landed a surprisingly quick ride to help him on his way. Force India will be pleased to have made a convincing step forward and Sir Frank must be ecstatic to have seen both Barrichello and the Hulk get some genuine pace out of his Cosworth-powered package. Schumi is clearly still a force to be reckoned with, though I believe MGP may have some reliability problems that need to be sorted. McLaren appear to have no such glitches and both drivers seem happy with the MP-25. There was an informed warning from Jenson that rear tyre wear will become a critical issue for the entire field and therein lies his own ace in the hole. Renault will need to be observed closely and Ferrari will need to step up a gear. At the moment, it would seem their engine customers are in better shape than they are.

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Haha yeah Ferrari dead last would be nice. Let's hope everyone but them is sandbagging. I'm surprised more people don't talk about VR's innovation. It's quite a cool idea that you can design something as intricate as an F1 car purely by thinking and theory rather than experiment aka trial and error like a monkey writes Shakespeare.

Yeah I agree. Maybe my calculations are more speculative than I said, but still it seems Virgin are in the expected ball-park, which is impressive considering they designed the whole car in their heads! I was surprised how accurate the testing times from last year turned out to be and I also tried to keep my estimates very conservative. I mean even if Lewis was sandbagging when he set his best time, VR have done hardly any running so far. And I'm not convinced Lewis was sandbagging all that much on his best lap, considering it was some 2-4s/lap faster than the long runs you mention.

No, I do computer simulations in another area: quantum rather than fluid mechanics. The goal is to design (eg) medicines rather than cars without experiments. As in F1, testing new drugs is a very slow, laborious and expensive process so there's lots of interest in being able to predict and explain how they will work in advance. And as in F1, we don't yet know how to do it without experiments - but that's the fun of it!

What's your project on? Don't tell me you're chief designer at Campos F1?? :D

:lol:

I don't mind the testing ban. The rules are the same for everyone and it's more of a challenge this way. Good technical minds like erm Lewis should be able to find a workable set up faster than everyone else. If you let them tootle round all year even the likes of Alonso will stumble upon a good set up.

My objection to it is that with less running, fitness is less of an issue.

:lol:

Yeah we can all be designers now! My rear wing is bigger than yours. :harhar:

I'm pleased to see your team doing well too. Go F*** India! :D

Bolded part: OMG you're Sheldon Cooper!!! :lol:

My project...I'm thinking of different things...but probably yep,something to do with fluid mechanics &machine design...anyways,I'll start in march so I'll let you know about it.

(Can't be worse than USF1,whose 1st attempt at a car had no engine,wheels,brakes... :D )

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I don't mind the testing ban. The rules are the same for everyone and it's more of a challenge this way. Good technical minds like erm Lewis should be able to find a workable set up faster than everyone else. If you let them tootle round all year even the likes of Alonso will stumble upon a good set up.

Now it's more like tossing a coin, which is understandable from you if you are working on that project about testing drugs on PCs. tongue.gif

Computers are great but such reduction of real testing these days is just ridiculous. The rules are the same for everyone does not mean it is good or the best possible scenario for a motorsport competition. No testing during the season is more expensive than a little bit of testing during the season. Why is 'no testing at all during the season' a good thing? Maybe a green F1 is the way to go now, no testing no polluting. Why the softer compound has a green stripe when a white one looked much clearer for us watchers? Green F1.

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Obviously, some of these 'fuel consumption' tests are planned, other sudden stops are spoiling tactics and the FIA should keep a close eye on such chicanery.

Yeah I was wondering about that. I'm sure some of them are deliberate spoiling tactics. I'm actually surprised you're allowed to deliberately cause a red flag even if it's a genuine fuel consumption test.

Ferrari will need to step up a gear. At the moment, it would seem their engine customers are in better shape than they are.

Oh I hope so, but can't imagine it. I'm pretty sure they just concentrated on longer runs (Ferrari I mean).

Bolded part: OMG you're Sheldon Cooper!!! :lol:

My project...I'm thinking of different things...but probably yep,something to do with fluid mechanics &machine design...anyways,I'll start in march so I'll let you know about it.

(Can't be worse than USF1,whose 1st attempt at a car had no engine,wheels,brakes... :D )

:lol:

But you bolded my entire post. :( At least I look so much cooler than Sheldon. Look forward to hearing about your project but I thought you preferred welding!

Now it's more like tossing a coin, which is understandable from you if you are working on that project about testing drugs on PCs. tongue.gif

Computers are great but such reduction of real testing these days is just ridiculous. The rules are the same for everyone does not mean it is good or the best possible scenario for a motorsport competition. No testing during the season is more expensive than a little bit of testing during the season. Why is 'no testing at all during the season' a good thing? Maybe a green F1 is the way to go now, no testing no polluting. Why the softer compound has a green stripe when a white one looked much clearer for us watchers? Green F1.

:lol:

You'd rather I tested them on myself wouldn't you? (God knows, I need some kind of medicine anyway.)

I don't think there's too much luck involved. It's too easy if you can run your car indefinitely beforehand. Anyone with enough money could do a reasonable job then. Much better to make them take a few gambles and it will leave more scope for ingenuity imho.

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:lol:

But you bolded my entire post. :( At least I look so much cooler than Sheldon. Look forward to hearing about your project but I thought you preferred welding!

:lol: Jokes aside, one of my classmates' final project is about welding.Something like 'Standardization of X welding procedures,based on Y ISO regulations...' :wacko: Fascinating.

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:lol:

Yeah we can all be designers now! My rear wing is bigger than yours. :harhar:

I'm pleased to see your team doing well too. Go F*** India! :D

Well, my front wing is longer than yours! :naughty:

I am pleased to see that we are all doing well actually..... soon we would be taking over every British company there.... :king:

:P

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You'd rather I tested them on myself wouldn't you? (God knows, I need some kind of medicine anyway.)

No, I just want you to take some creative drugs rather than always spec medicines. smile.gif

I don't think there's too much luck involved. It's too easy if you can run your car indefinitely beforehand. Anyone with enough money could do a reasonable job then. Much better to make them take a few gambles and it will leave more scope for ingenuity imho.

I have nothing against a dose of luck involved in any sport you can think of. In fact a big dose of luck is always required to win a championship and even more if we are talking about motorsport, good luck or absence of bad luck is the first thing you need. And I'm not talking about mechanical reliability, error free pit-stops, etc. because these are aspects where a team can work on and improve it. But you need training and testing to achieve any improvement and the best must prevail. It's like saying, oh Federer is too good and it's boring and blah, blah, blah... We have to do something to let others catch up a bit. Errr... Back to wooden rackets? That's not going to put things back to the golden era of Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Lendl...

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Meanwhile.....now that Max is out of the picture Rons back!

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=39943

:lol:

If only!

No, I just want you to take some creative drugs rather than always spec medicines. smile.gif

I have nothing against a dose of luck involved in any sport you can think of. In fact a big dose of luck is always required to win a championship and even more if we are talking about motorsport, good luck or absence of bad luck is the first thing you need. And I'm not talking about mechanical reliability, error free pit-stops, etc. because these are aspects where a team can work on and improve it. But you need training and testing to achieve any improvement and the best must prevail. It's like saying, oh Federer is too good and it's boring and blah, blah, blah... We have to do something to let others catch up a bit. Errr... Back to wooden rackets? That's not going to put things back to the golden era of Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Lendl...

There is more luck involved with limited testing. But there's also more scope for talent and genius to prevail as well, rather than just having lots of money and testing ad nauseum until even Kimi Raikkonen could find a good set up.

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I agree with Alex. One thing is making rules to avoid a couple of teams gaining an unsurmountable advantage. But the no testing rules and all that crap just add so much luck in the mix that skills become less important. Double diffusers were not a strike of genius in the sense turbo cars were. It was just a gamble that paid off BECAUSE nobody could do much to overturn the minimum extra edge these things gave to BGP. There's no real advance through competition here. All you can do is pick your cards before the start of the season and then hope they are the best. You can't keep adjusting the odds through continuous changes in the rules. Do you seriously think any team is actually improving? And I don't mean getting more points by improving, but rather following a rational, evolving process on their designs.

As for computer designed cars, yes, it is amazing that Virgin cars are actually competitive. But lets not forget that something as complex as the Boeing 777 was completely computer designed. And that's a much bigger feat :P

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:lol:

If only!

There is more luck involved with limited testing. But there's also more scope for talent and genius to prevail as well, rather than just having lots of money and testing ad nauseum until even Kimi Raikkonen could find a good set up.

Do you even know what u're saying?

:P

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I agree with Alex. One thing is making rules to avoid a couple of teams gaining an unsurmountable advantage. But the no testing rules and all that crap just add so much luck in the mix that skills become less important. Double diffusers were not a strike of genius in the sense turbo cars were. It was just a gamble that paid off BECAUSE nobody could do much to overturn the minimum extra edge these things gave to BGP. There's no real advance through competition here. All you can do is pick your cards before the start of the season and then hope they are the best. You can't keep adjusting the odds through continuous changes in the rules. Do you seriously think any team is actually improving? And I don't mean getting more points by improving, but rather following a rational, evolving process on their designs.

As for computer designed cars, yes, it is amazing that Virgin cars are actually competitive. But lets not forget that something as complex as the Boeing 777 was completely computer designed. And that's a much bigger feat :P

:thbup:

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There is more luck involved with limited testing. But there's also more scope for talent and genius to prevail as well, rather than just having lots of money and testing ad nauseum until even Kimi Raikkonen could find a good set up.

There was a reasonable scope for talent in 2005 and 2006 when Renault-Michelin won both Championships fighting against McLaren and Ferrari respectively. If I remember correctly 4 or 5 teams had a bigger budget and they still managed to beat them all. There's always a better option between no testing at all or testing ad nauseum.

Having lots of money will be more and more important I'm afraid. Big teams are spending zillions on state-of-the-art simulators and CFD. For a small team to compete against the big ones there should be some room for improvements without spending lots of money ad nauseum, room for brilliant ideas and genius. In no time we'll stop talking about wind tunnels and real testing to start talking about CFD and simulators. There will be a transient period before the big names get a clear upper hand but what's the point on doing that ad eternum?

Double diffusers were not a strike of genius in the sense turbo cars were. It was just a gamble that paid off BECAUSE nobody could do much to overturn the minimum extra edge these things gave to BGP. There's no real advance through competition here.

I think it was planned in advance (conspiracy, sorry) but they expected Honda to stay. Mercedes made BRAWN's fly on the tarmac while Williams and Toyota had a smaller improvement.

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http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/2/10442.html

Testing underway once more at Jerez

The third of four pre-season tests began on Wednesday morning at the Spanish circuit of Jerez. After wet weather limited everyone’s running at the same track last week, the teams are no doubt hoping for a little sunny respite, but the forecast looks just as bleak and rainy for this week’s four-day session.

One bright spot will be provided by Lotus, who will test for the first time amongst their rivals following the T127’s launch in London last week. Test driver Fairuz Fauzy is scheduled to take the green and yellow-liveried car out on Wednesday, before handing it over to team mate Heikki Kovalainen for two days. Jarno Trulli will then get his first chance behind the wheel on Saturday.

And there should be much else to take note of during the test. Force India’s new reserve driver Paul di Resta is expected to enjoy his first outing in the VJM03, before team mates Adrian Sutil and Vitantonio Liuzzi take over for the rest of the test. After struggling to chalk up much mileage last week, Virgin will also be back in action testing the VR01.

McLaren’s Lewis Hamilton will be eager to carry on where he left off, after clocking the quickest time of last week’s test with a best lap of 1m 19.583s, as he takes charge of the MP4-25 over the opening two days of the session. Team mate Jenson Button will drive from Friday. Ferrari incumbent Felipe Massa will also take charge of his team’s programme during the opening two days before handing the F10 over to new team mate Fernando Alonso on Friday.

Pedro de la Rosa will test for two days in BMW Sauber’s C29, before team mate Kamui Kobayashi steps in, whilst Renault’s Vitaly Petrov will drive the R30 on Wednesday and Thursday, ahead of team mate Robert Kubica’s time in the car. Red Bull and Toro Rosso’s programmes are similar, with Sebastian Vettel and Sebastien Buemi set to test the RB6 and the STR5 respectively on the first two days, before their stable mates Mark Webber and Jaime Alguersuari take the wheel.

Williams too plan to field Rubens Barrichello for two days, and Nico Hulkenberg for two days. Mercedes, however, are understood to have opted to let their drivers take to the track on alternate days. Michael Schumacher will be in the MGP W01 on Wednesday and Friday, whilst his team mate Nico Rosberg will test on Thursday and Saturday.

Check back throughout the week for updates on the teams’ testing progress and the latest images. Note that all schedules are provisional and subject to change.

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1. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:22.593 99

2. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:23.017 72

3. Massa Ferrari 1:23.204 72

4. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:23.322 79

5. de la Rosa BMW-Sauber 1:23.367 76

6. M.Schumacher Mercedes GP 1:23.803 111

7. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1:24.272 28

8. di Resta Force India-Mercedes 1:25.088 74

9. Petrov Renault 1:26.237 55

10. Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 1:27.320 109

11. Fauzy Lotus-Cosworth 1:31.848 76

12. Glock Virgin-Cosworth 1:32.417 10

It's like the Williams-Cosworth marriage never ended. Barrichello stopped on track today......3 times.

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1. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:22.593 99

2. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:23.017 72

3. Massa Ferrari 1:23.204 72

4. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:23.322 79

5. de la Rosa BMW-Sauber 1:23.367 76

6. M.Schumacher Mercedes GP 1:23.803 111

7. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1:24.272 28

8. di Resta Force India-Mercedes 1:25.088 74

9. Petrov Renault 1:26.237 55

10. Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 1:27.320 109

11. Fauzy Lotus-Cosworth 1:31.848 76

12. Glock Virgin-Cosworth 1:32.417 10

It's like the Williams-Cosworth marriage never ended. Barrichello stopped on track today......3 times.

Shows they are working on the marrage...

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