Boring-Gate

[Max Mosley 2]

I'm appalled, Jean. One bad race and you call your old driver a girl. Oh, you meant Yeoh...

[Max Mosley 2]

Actually FIA tried to reduce downforce since 1969 when they banned the high mounted movable wings, and failed every single time.

Besides, F1 doesn't need less downforce, it needs a less turbulent and less sensitive aero package.

The GE F1 racecars of the early 80s had enormous amounts of downforce, while the Group B/IMSA GTP cars had freaking unbelievable levels (some 4000 to 5000 kilos of downforce at @ 320 Km/h).

Exactly! Max Mosley tried to achieve all this with his spec car chassis ideas but again the teams stood right in the way of progress.

I seem to remember an F1 insider saying that the teams deliberately make the wake more turbulent so as to be harder to pass. It's neat innovation but not very good for the fans like you and me!

[DOF_power 0]

Exactly! Max Mosley tried to achieve all this with his spec car chassis ideas but again the teams stood right in the way of progress.

I seem to remember an F1 insider saying that the teams deliberately make the wake more turbulent so as to be harder to pass. It's neat innovation but not very good for the fans like you and me!

So cut the hands of the aero department once and for all.

As I said, I don't want spec-cars, and F1 will die going that way, but the only the nose, sidepods and wheel rims provide any comprehensible visual variation (/diversity) and they should be kept. But the underfloor and rear/rear wing should be standardized.

They'll have others things to tinker with; mindbogglingly the Champcar Panoz allowed track variation besides wheelbase variation while F1 doesn't.

[Max Mosley 2]

I quite like spec cars... oh wait I said that already! Well, yes the less the aero department can do the better, I say, so your suggestions there set a direction we could agree on.

[DOF_power 0]

I quite like spec cars... oh wait I said that already! Well, yes the less the aero department can do the better, I say, so your suggestions there set a direction we could agree on.

However most people don't.

[Max Mosley 2]

If I ever find myself in agreement with the hoi polloi, I'll be very worried indeed, Mr DOF.

[Quiet One 15]

If I ever find myself in agreement with the hoi polloi, I'll be very worried indeed, Mr DOF.

Either delete the "hoi" or delete the "the" as both words mean the same

[Max Mosley 2]

That's what most people think, Andres, but I know better. You know that!

[Autumnpuma 0]

They'll have others things to tinker with; mindbogglingly the Champcar Panoz allowed track variation besides wheelbase variation while F1 doesn't.

That was a damned good car. And not too far off F1's pace.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Interesting article from James Allen:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/getting-rid-of-aero-in-f1-the-counterargument/

Concerns reducing mechanical rather than aerodynamic grip.

[yurp 0]

Interesting article from James Allen:

http://www.jamesalle...ounterargument/

Concerns reducing mechanical rather than aerodynamic grip.

interesting point - grippy tyres make overtaking harder because there's such a difference between traction on and off the racing line.

EDIT - forgot to change your name on the quote.

[Redout 0]

So cut the hands of the aero department once and for all.

As I said, I don't want spec-cars, and F1 will die going that way, but the only the nose, sidepods and wheel rims provide any comprehensible visual variation (/diversity) and they should be kept. But the underfloor and rear/rear wing should be standardized.

They'll have others things to tinker with; mindbogglingly the Champcar Panoz allowed track variation besides wheelbase variation while F1 doesn't.

I agree with this. NASCAR's dying a slow death thanks to spec cars, it'd be a shame to see another major racing series be attacked with spec cars and then just die due to a lack of competition.

[DOF_power 0]

Interesting article from James Allen:

http://www.jamesalle...ounterargument/

Concerns reducing mechanical rather than aerodynamic grip.

But we do have harder tires and less mechanical grip this year, and we also had that in 2005, but passing becomes even harder.

But then they had 4 tires compound to chose from, witch would "go off" far easier then today, and they could be setup in asymmetrical layout either front-rear (Moto GP style) or left-right (NASCAR style). If the cars were the same with the same tires and setup there was no passing.

In fact the tires have never been harder then the ones used these days, but they do have a lot more grip then in the 80s as tire technology moved forward.

And carbon-carbon brakes were introduced not due to being considerably better (then steel brakes) but due to not expanding and thus cracking the rims.

And why do GP2/Formula Nippon/Superleague cars can pass each other considering they also have semi-autos with paddles ?!

[maure 1]

Funny thing how much effort the English speaking press is wasting on the claim that this season is boring. F1 is as boring now as it has been for years, courtesy of Ecclestone and his acolytes.

But, of course, the "boring-gate" is nothing other than Hamilton/Button/whoever didn´t win. In fact, Alonso´s victory adds insult to injury... and so the bigots btch.

Last season started far, far worse. Brawn was blatanly cheating (as we found out) and not a single of these "boring-gate" whinners complained. The answer is simple, Button was winning.

And so, Alonso and Ferrari wins and the worst of the worst of F1 complains. They´ve gotten used to having unworthy drivers and teams of their like taking it all by any means, not matter how illegal or inmoral.

How can one not smile.

[DOF_power 0]

2] Tires have never been harder then today. And 2005 didn’t work.

On track passing:

2004 … 277

2005 … 201

On track passing dry only

2004 … 244

2005 … 181

2005 was a disaster from a passing perspective but 2009, 2008 and 2007 were the worst for dry weather passes.

On track passing dry weather passing:

2004 … 244

2005 … 181 (single tire rule)

2006 … 221 (V8s)

2007 … 157 (frozen/limited V8s, no tire war)

2008 … 140 (SECU: TC + rear ABS ban)

2009 … 144 (lower rev limit + new aero + KERS on some cars)

Ever since the tire war was ended, the engines were rev-limited and electronics were standardized/reduced overtaking went down.

From 2004 till 2009 F1 lost 100 dry weather passes due to stupid ever more restrictive rules witch made cars more and more aero dependent.

F1 needs a tire, engine and electronics war for the passing to improve and less reliance on aero.

[Kopite Girl 0]

F*cking Bollocks.

Its ONE RACE IN. ONE.

Sometimes this place is worse than a gang of old women at the local church bitching about the meals-on-wheels late deliveries.

Rant over.

I still love ya all though.

[yurp 0]

F*cking Bollocks.

Its ONE RACE IN. ONE.

Sometimes this place is worse than a gang of old women at the local church bitching about the meals-on-wheels late deliveries.

Rant over.

I still love ya all though.

Yeah - but Steph - we've got a WHOLE off season to make up for.

And if the meals-on-wheels guys are as slow as Bahrain then don't be surprised if we old women start bitching.

[yurp 0]

From 2004 till 2009 F1 lost 100 dry weather passes due to stupid ever more restrictive rules witch made cars more and more aero dependent.

F1 needs a tire, engine and electronics war for the passing to improve and less reliance on aero.

Hey DOF - I replied to your similar post on the other thread.

I reckon if they just lifted the restrictions on engines, electronics and everything else, they wouldn't need to touch aero - it would simply become less important.

Right now it's the only thing that a team can use to get the edge and so its importance is artificially high.

One question - where do you get you stats on number of passes from?

I'd be interested to know what other stats are available - especially on a track by track basis too.

[Max Mosley 2]

This is a good source. For some reason they only go back to 1983. If anyone has some stats from before then, I'd be very grateful if you could 'pass' it on.

And why do GP2/Formula Nippon/Superleague cars can pass each other considering they also have semi-autos with paddles ?!

Because they're spec cars, my friend. They're quite quick too.

Funny thing how much effort the English speaking press is wasting on the claim that this season is boring. F1 is as boring now as it has been for years, courtesy of Ecclestone and his acolytes.

But, of course, the "boring-gate" is nothing other than Hamilton/Button/whoever didn´t win. In fact, Alonso´s victory adds insult to injury... and so the bigots btch.

Last season started far, far worse. Brawn was blatanly cheating (as we found out) and not a single of these "boring-gate" whinners complained. The answer is simple, Button was winning.

And so, Alonso and Ferrari wins and the worst of the worst of F1 complains. They´ve gotten used to having unworthy drivers and teams of their like taking it all by any means, not matter how illegal or inmoral.

How can one not smile.

Yes I do enjoy your vile and racist rants. Give us more. Do tell us how the English are the worst of the worst. No doubt Schumacher has been forced into agreeing with us because he works for a... boo... hiss... Englishman.

2] Tires have never been harder then today. And 2005 didn’t work.

On track passing:

2004 … 277

2005 … 201

On track passing dry only

2004 … 244

2005 … 181

2005 was a disaster from a passing perspective but 2009, 2008 and 2007 were the worst for dry weather passes.

On track passing dry weather passing:

2004 … 244

2005 … 181 (single tire rule)

2006 … 221 (V8s)

2007 … 157 (frozen/limited V8s, no tire war)

2008 … 140 (SECU: TC + rear ABS ban)

2009 … 144 (lower rev limit + new aero + KERS on some cars)

Ever since the tire war was ended, the engines were rev-limited and electronics were standardized/reduced overtaking went down.

From 2004 till 2009 F1 lost 100 dry weather passes due to stupid ever more restrictive rules witch made cars more and more aero dependent.

F1 needs a tire, engine and electronics war for the passing to improve and less reliance on aero.

For once, I DOF my hat for you. I disagree we need any kind of development war at all (the series you mentioned above do just fine without) but it's an interesting look at the stats.

[yurp 0]

This is a good source. For some reason they only go back to 1983. If anyone has some stats from before then, I'd be very grateful if you could 'pass' it on.

Thanks Max - just what I was after.

The thing I immediately noticed post 2002 was that every year more rules were introduced or changed than the preceeding year and passing steadily declined.

That would lead us to believe that the rules themselves don't matter, it's the changing nature of them that's limiting passing.

Just look at the new rules lists...

2002 - Team orders banned

(1 rule change)

2003 - (5 changes)

2004 - (5 changes)

2005 - (5 changes)

2006 - (4 changes) low and behold - MORE PASSING THIS YEAR!

2007 - (7 changes)

2008 - (9 changes)

2009 - (8 changes)

2010 - Refuelling during the race is abolished. FOTA agree not to use KERS. Minimum car weight increased to 620 kg. Front tyre width reduced from 270mm to 245mm. Wheel covers are banned. Certain parts of the car must now be homologated, including the driver's survival cell, roll structures, all impact structures and the front and rear wheels. Wheel rim heaters are banned and blankets are only allowed to act on the tyre's outer surface. Drivers are permitted 11 sets of tyres during each race weekend. The top ten drivers to qualify for the race must start the race on the same set of tyres that they qualified with. Friday test drivers permitted.

(10 changes)

Conclusion -

fewer rule changes = more passing

more rule changes = less passing

I suppose as teams get used to rules there is more likely to be parity and therefore equal performance and more chance of passing.

When rules are changed so drastically every year some teams adapt quickly and others don't thus making the field uneven and leading to dull seasons.

Perhaps they just need to leave everything the same for a couple of years before changing it again and we might get some evenly performing cars.

Personally I think they have to abolish a lot of the restrictions, but at least not adding any more would be a good start.

I'll have to look further at the stats to assess the effects of different types of rules (qually changes / tyres / engines / electronics etc)

EDIT - equally, the major drop was between 1984 and 1996, so those rule changes need more analysis.

[maure 1]

2] Tires have never been harder then today. And 2005 didn’t work.

On track passing:

2004 … 277

2005 … 201

On track passing dry only

2004 … 244

2005 … 181

2005 was a disaster from a passing perspective but 2009, 2008 and 2007 were the worst for dry weather passes.

On track passing dry weather passing:

2004 … 244

2005 … 181 (single tire rule)

2006 … 221 (V8s)

2007 … 157 (frozen/limited V8s, no tire war)

2008 … 140 (SECU: TC + rear ABS ban)

2009 … 144 (lower rev limit + new aero + KERS on some cars)

Ever since the tire war was ended, the engines were rev-limited and electronics were standardized/reduced overtaking went down.

From 2004 till 2009 F1 lost 100 dry weather passes due to stupid ever more restrictive rules witch made cars more and more aero dependent.

F1 needs a tire, engine and electronics war for the passing to improve and less reliance on aero.

Yep. In other words, F1 needs competition.

[maure 1]

Yes I do enjoy your vile and racist rants. Give us more. Do tell us how the English are the worst of the worst. No doubt Schumacher has been forced into agreeing with us because he works for a... boo... hiss... Englishman.

Naturally, since you are as racist as lacking (both your admissions in previous posts not my words or opinion), you consider us all the same. Amusing thing.

Now to the topic you are trying to hide behind your whine:

- The English speaking press is full of the "boring" crap. Prove me wrong.

- The English speaking press did not give a sht when the "bore" had Hamilton and Button winning. Prove me wrong.

- I speak several languages and have not found any other press that is clinging to the boring crap as the English one. Could there be one? Sure, why not. Go find it and post it here. Of course, not the annecdotal French website or whatever. Find a press that, collectively, is right now freaking out about the bore.

Alternatively, continue to hear my laughter.

[maure 1]

F*cking Bollocks.

Its ONE RACE IN. ONE.

Sometimes this place is worse than a gang of old women at the local church bitching about the meals-on-wheels late deliveries.

Rant over.

I still love ya all though.

Yep. It´s one race... and it was decent despite FIA.

[Max Mosley 2]

I suppose as teams get used to rules there is more likely to be parity and therefore equal performance and more chance of passing.

An interesting analysis. That almost makes me think spec cars might be a good idea.

EDIT - equally, the major drop was between 1984 and 1996, so those rule changes need more analysis.

Indeed. Long before most people assume, in their rush to blame Max Mosley!

Naturally, since you are as racist as lacking (both your admissions in previous posts not my words or opinion), you consider us all the same. Amusing thing.

Now to the topic you are trying to hide behind your whine:

- The English speaking press is full of the "boring" crap. Prove me wrong.

- The English speaking press did not give a sht when the "bore" had Hamilton and Button winning. Prove me wrong.

- I speak several languages and have not found any other press that is clinging to the boring crap as the English one. Could there be one? Sure, why not. Go find it and post it here. Of course, not the annecdotal French website or whatever. Find a press that, collectively, is right now freaking out about the bore.

Alternatively, continue to hear my laughter.

Amusing as always, Maure - whatever happens on track, only a fool could mistake you for a Baure. I smile to see you quietly drop your racist ramblings when confronted by the open hand of tolerance and diversity we politically correct folks enforce with an iron fist round here.

Still, for mutual amusement, do tell me more about how only the English speaking press has figured out that the last race was a tad dull. Frankly, given how obvious it was, the suggestion that only English speaking people are smart enough to figure it out seems a little too racist even for you to seriously believe. You really should have more respect for other peoples - maybe you need to travel a little more.

[Quiet One 15]

More food for thought here http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/getting-rid-of-aero-in-f1-the-counterargument/