Autumnpuma

What You Missed While Looking For A Pass

64 posts in this topic

Hmm, I saw those things too, despite the fact I was futilely looking for a pass (in a race, silly me!).

As you know enjoyment is subjective, I saw all of the things you mentioned and I agree that they are good, interesting things. But that doesn't mean F1 is in a good state; it should have all of those elements plus some actual racing. It is a racing series, after all. You know, I love all the human interest stories but I can read the news if I am looking for that, and if I want strategy I can play a game of chess. F1 is the place where I want to find racing, of the wheel to wheel sort, the best kind of racing with some of the best drivers in some of the best cars. Everything else should be secondary, as far as I am concerned. F1 isn't really doing that at the moment imo. So I think some of criticisms following the race, although potentially premature, are fair enough. Again, this is mostly subjective.

As for harbingers, Schumacher pointed out that passing was "almost impossible" in the current environment (iirc). I'll wait and see though.

If it is the case that the regs have killed the racing (more so than last season), I agree with whoever said that F1 needs to start clean, and not keep adding on regulations as if patching it up.

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Bridgestone will rather produce a tyre that Messers Strags and Shiny agree is 'better' than one that they think is 'inferior'.

You're thinking the FIA and the teams are omniscient. They're not. Like everyone else, Bridgstone didn't know what to expect with the new sized fronts, the heat of Bahrain and the heavier cars and with virtually no testing data, they guessed. Even if they guessed right, the drivers were too skittish in this first race to push Bridgstone's creations. I think they made the tyres too hard, but they may not have. The driver's caution may have skewed our perceptions of the tyre.

Tyre manufacturers know full well that they will be the first one's blamed and they do try to get the compounds right (by right I mean as sticky as possible). I'm surprised Bridgstone did so well, actually.

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Interesting points by Mike, as usual he tends to put things in a different perspective, but as usual, I may not agree with everything..:D

Its only the pit crew and few fans who really really notice such things in detail...for example if I brought a ticket for the previous race, the only chance I could have managed to stay awake is if brought the ticket to the seat near the main straight , because the sound of the engine snoring past you within half its rev limit could have kept me awake. I wont have a chance to observe the way you did while watching it on TV, atleast if the positions kept changing things would have kept me interested.

Newey made an interesting comment about Vettel's performance, he said that Vettel manged to hold on to his fourth by showing incredible speeds in corners. He kinda balanced it out as much as he can. Really impressive stuff...But did any of us know this during the race? Nope.....not even the commentators would have noticed it......There actually many interesting things happening during most of the so called boring races...its just that 99% of the fans can't just notice...we need fights, the crowds always love fights.. A crowd will never love a fight where the fighters are using just half their strength to trash their opponents so that they could preserve their strength till the end of the fight which could be hours away from the first blow.....

But then..lets wait, its only one race that has gone by....I am sure if we continue to have atleast two more races similar to Bahrain, they will make some big changes..in the end of the day its us they are all striving to satisfy.... (not to mention, 'their pockets)

Edited by Jean Todt

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I still havn't read through every post in this thread yet...

Man, Its getting tough to catch up with you guys...

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Hmm, I saw those things too, despite the fact I was futilely looking for a pass (in a race, silly me!).

As you know enjoyment is subjective, I saw all of the things you mentioned and I agree that they are good, interesting things. But that doesn't mean F1 is in a good state; it should have all of those elements plus some actual racing. It is a racing series, after all. You know, I love all the human interest stories but I can read the news if I am looking for that, and if I want strategy I can play a game of chess. F1 is the place where I want to find racing, of the wheel to wheel sort, the best kind of racing with some of the best drivers in some of the best cars. Everything else should be secondary, as far as I am concerned. F1 isn't really doing that at the moment imo. So I think some of criticisms following the race, although potentially premature, are fair enough. Again, this is mostly subjective.

As for harbingers, Schumacher pointed out that passing was "almost impossible" in the current environment (iirc). I'll wait and see though.

If it is the case that the regs have killed the racing (more so than last season), I agree with whoever said that F1 needs to start clean, and not keep adding on regulations as if patching it up.

I can't really argue with that, but I'm still left with the firm conviction that the race, rules and tyres aren't as bad as everyone is making out. One thing I will dispute, every single time, is the statement about passing being almost impossible. All that says is that the driver quoted couldn't manage to pass anyone. There were plenty of passes in the race.

Racing is made up of people and understanding what makes them tick adds depth and perspective to a race weekend. Everything I mentioned here will play a part as the season progresses and is just as important in the formation of a WDC as anything happening on-track. In fact, much of it is the genesis of what we see on-track.

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Hmm, I saw those things too, despite the fact I was futilely looking for a pass (in a race, silly me!).

As you know enjoyment is subjective, I saw all of the things you mentioned and I agree that they are good, interesting things. But that doesn't mean F1 is in a good state; it should have all of those elements plus some actual racing. It is a racing series, after all. You know, I love all the human interest stories but I can read the news if I am looking for that, and if I want strategy I can play a game of chess. F1 is the place where I want to find racing, of the wheel to wheel sort, the best kind of racing with some of the best drivers in some of the best cars. Everything else should be secondary, as far as I am concerned. F1 isn't really doing that at the moment imo. So I think some of criticisms following the race, although potentially premature, are fair enough. Again, this is mostly subjective.

As for harbingers, Schumacher pointed out that passing was "almost impossible" in the current environment (iirc). I'll wait and see though.

If it is the case that the regs have killed the racing (more so than last season), I agree with whoever said that F1 needs to start clean, and not keep adding on regulations as if patching it up.

Bravo George Bravo...

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James...its James James...

Welcome back...

Never left. I just don't say much.

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Firstly, the tyre thing. My own car has terrific grip and goes round the twisty bits very nicely. The tyres are all used up and raggedy looking rather quickly compared to my neighbour's econobox, which will do a zillion miles on it's original boots but falls over at the first bend you come to. Which tyre is superior? Depends what you want from a tyre. I'll take my stickies thanks. I'm happy with the relatively short lifespan/high grip trade off.

Secondly, I agree that a clean sheet, fresh start is needed to undo all the accumulated damage done, but that will take time to formulate. Until then, unfortunately, we need patches. So, super stickies all round then.

I refuse to change my mind.

Okay - let me explain why I think the tyre you're describing would be inferior. Bridgestone have made a tyre with a very good balance between durability and grip. That balance is what makes it the best tyre for the job.

If that balance is pushed more towards sticky, the time lost due to more pitting will be greater than the time gained due to stickiness.

If you push that balance more towards durability, the time lost due non-stickiness will be greater than the time gained due to fewer pitstops.

Bridgestone's job is to find that sweet spot between stickiness and durability. Asking them to make tyres without that balance is asking them to make inferior tyres for F1 cars.

...one minute fans accuse Max Mosley the FIA of changing his their minds and the rules too much, the next minute they change their mind and accuse him them of never going back on any of his their mistakes.

(I said nothing of Max.)

Any way - what? There's no changing of minds going on here.

The FIA can be guilty of changing the rules too much and guilty of never undoing these silly rule changes.

These things are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, that is exacly what they have been doing for the last few years.

Engage your brain for a moment here...

A man can be guilty of vandalism and also guilty of covering it up.

One lie leads to another.

You're thinking the FIA and the teams are omniscient. They're not. Like everyone else, Bridgstone didn't know what to expect with the new sized fronts, the heat of Bahrain and the heavier cars and with virtually no testing data, they guessed. Even if they guessed right, the drivers were too skittish in this first race to push Bridgstone's creations. I think they made the tyres too hard, but they may not have. The driver's caution may have skewed our perceptions of the tyre.

Tyre manufacturers know full well that they will be the first one's blamed and they do try to get the compounds right (by right I mean as sticky as possible). I'm surprised Bridgstone did so well, actually.

An interesting point.

Edited by adamstrags

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Okay - let me explain why I think the tyre you're describing would be inferior. Bridgestone have made a tyre with a very good balance between durability and grip. That balance is what makes it the best tyre for the job.

You may be right and I don't think anybody can blame Bridestone for that but the point in refuelling ban was on the tyres. No one set of tyres should last more than 20 laps before it dramatically drops performance. FIA&Bridgestone should have had that in mind.

Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton, Webber... I read what they said after the race and it was boring and predictable for them too. Even if they were in the c#ckpit, they only can see what they have a few meters ahead but they noticed the race was pretty much over after the first corner. There's nothing that 2 mandatory pit-stops can solve. I got surprised that Hamilton could not even try on Rosberg for the first 15 laps then I could hardly believe it took Alonso a while to pass Vettel's underperforming car and finally I never thought Rosberg would get stuck behind Vettel for the last three laps. Something is seriouly ****ed up. Baharain is a good Tilke track from the overtaking point of view.

We probably have the worst possible scenario. Forget about different set-ups, they have to get the best car possible for qualifying and that's pertty much all. First corner and first lap and then a train all the way. We won't see many overtakings between cars in the same tier. It's not worse than last year, only a bit more predictable because of the refuelling ban and superdurable tyres.

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You may be right and I don't think anybody can blame Bridestone for that but the point in refuelling ban was on the tyres. No one set of tyres should last more than 20 laps before it dramatically drops performance. FIA&Bridgestone should have had that in mind.

Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton, Webber... I read what they said after the race and it was boring and predictable for them too. Even if they were in the c#ckpit, they only can see what they have a few meters ahead but they noticed the race was pretty much over after the first corner. There's nothing that 2 mandatory pit-stops can solve. I got surprised that Hamilton could not even try on Rosberg for the first 15 laps then I could hardly believe it took Alonso a while to pass Vettel's underperforming car and finally I never thought Rosberg would get stuck behind Vettel for the last three laps. Something is seriouly ****ed up. Baharain is a good Tilke track from the overtaking point of view.

We probably have the worst possible scenario. Forget about different set-ups, they have to get the best car possible for qualifying and that's pertty much all. First corner and first lap and then a train all the way. We won't see many overtakings between cars in the same tier. It's not worse than last year, only a bit more predictable because of the refuelling ban and superdurable tyres.

Agree

What bugs me is the same old routine...

1) they introduce a stupid new rule (this year, the refueling ban, but we've had many before).

2) it makes F1 worse.

3) the people who supported that stupid rule (FIA plus various forum members) won't accept that the rule is the problem.

4) instead they say "Ah, but if we changed something else (this year it's tyres) things would get better again."

5) they make yet another stupid rule.

6) go back to step 1 and repeat ad nauseum.

They can't keep patching things up, adding layers of complexity, more loopholes and caveats every year in an attempt to hide their previous mistakes.

I'm going to put my basic rule list in my sig, so I don't have to keep typing it.

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:lol:

But Adam, here is what I would say:

3. Max Mosley opposed the refueling ban but the teams were keen.

4. It's the teams who keep saying we now need to change the tyres.

You're thinking the FIA and the teams are omniscient. They're not. Like everyone else, Bridgstone didn't know what to expect with the new sized fronts, the heat of Bahrain and the heavier cars and with virtually no testing data, they guessed. Even if they guessed right, the drivers were too skittish in this first race to push Bridgstone's creations. I think they made the tyres too hard, but they may not have. The driver's caution may have skewed our perceptions of the tyre.

Tyre manufacturers know full well that they will be the first one's blamed and they do try to get the compounds right (by right I mean as sticky as possible). I'm surprised Bridgstone did so well, actually.

I'm sure that's true up to a point. They were extra conservative given the new rules. But still, I don't think Bridgestone are going to want to make a tyre that is so marginal on durability that people get caught out every race. They get little in the way of praise for making super sticky tyres but lots in the way of damnation when something goes wrong. You can see this when we have a tyre war: the tyres suddenly get a lot better (no quotation marks this time) because then there is a real incentive for the tyre companies. Otherwise it's in their interests to play it safe, at least more so than is good for the fans, even if they went further than usual this time.

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Alonso's masterful drive. Yes his car wasn't the class of the field, but he showed Massa just how he got two WDCs. Lewis made a comment in the pre-race about how tough a competitor Fernando is. He said that just when he'd go out and set a mega lap, Fernando would better it. Alonso is a sleeper..he's very Prost-like in approach and will only go as fast as needed. Getting the car home with maximum points and never, never quiting is what he taught Massa and it was very fun to watch. I especially liked the part where Alonso pushed a bit and showed us just what speed he has held in reserve while looking after the tyres. As with Nico, I get the feeling Massa was holding less speed in reserve than Alonso.

It looks like I was the only one who noticed Massa starting on the dirty side comprimising his start and the team telling him to slow down to conserve the engine for the next race and the fuel for that one, I never heard a similar transmission for Alonso who was clearly setting fast laps while Massa was cruising because of that call from the team, I don't see that battle particularly fun to watch, he was set to finish where he was until that failure hit Vetel otherwise he wouldn't be able to pass and talking about comments MSC said after the race that in that kind of heat the tires just don't generate more speed andwe talk about how all of them were cruising saving tires and I don't think Vetel would have been in cruise mode watching another driver taking his position.

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:lol:

But Adam, here is what I would say:

3. Max Mosley opposed the refueling ban but the teams were keen.

4. It's the teams who keep saying we now need to change the tyres.

Yep - and I can entirely agree with you, but that doesn't make the rules good and it doesn't remove responsibility from the FIA either.

The buck stops with them - they write the rule book.

:P

You can blame the teams and I can blame the FIA, we can point fingers all day, but really you're missing the point...

The simple fact that these rules should be undone if F1 is to go anywhere.

If it gets us there faster, I'll say all the silly rules are the teams fault. I don't care as long as someone gets rid of them.

Edited by adamstrags

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Okay - let me explain why I think the tyre you're describing would be inferior. Bridgestone have made a tyre with a very good balance between durability and grip. That balance is what makes it the best tyre for the job.

If that balance is pushed more towards sticky, the time lost due to more pitting will be greater than the time gained due to stickiness.

If you push that balance more towards durability, the time lost due non-stickiness will be greater than the time gained due to fewer pitstops.

Bridgestone's job is to find that sweet spot between stickiness and durability. Asking them to make tyres without that balance is asking them to make inferior tyres for F1 cars.

For me personally, why I think the tyres were 'possibly' (taking Mike's point about drivers may have been conservative into consideration) too durable, is that I don't think the drivers whose driving style is harder on their tyres should have been able to make them last for so long. Presumably they could have lasted the whole race without the enforced compound change.

Taking the Mclaren drivers as an example, Button is supposed to be quite gentle on his tyres and Lewis is supposed to be quite hard on his. So before the season started, I was expecting a tactical battle between Button managing his tyres, doing fewer pit stops and Lewis going quicker, but wearing his tyres out quicker so having to do more pit stops and seeing how it balanced out. Obviously, I am only using the McLaren drivers as an example and I was expecting a few more drivers on different strategies. However, it just didn't pan out like that at all due to the tyres lasting so well and personally I think it's a wasted opportunity.

I guess we'll see how the next few races go, hopefully, as Mike says, they will realise they were being too conservative.

Oh, and I agree with the esteemed Gorilla on this one, a grippier less durable tyre is not inferior, just different.

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Yep - and I can entirely agree with you, but that doesn't make the rules good and it doesn't remove responsibility from the FIA either.

The buck stops with them - they write the rule book.

:P

You can blame the teams and I can blame the FIA, we can point fingers all day, but really you're missing the point...

The simple fact that these rules should be undone if F1 is to go anywhere.

If it gets us there faster, I'll say all the silly rules are the teams fault. I don't care as long as someone gets rid of them.

I agree the rules ought to be undone but it's too much fun to point fingers not to! Besides, you can't say the buck stops entirely with Max Mosley because, against his own better judgement, he wrote a set of rules that the teams wanted and also complain, as folk usually did, when he ignored the wishes of the teams, as he usually tried to do. He did his level best to write the rules without consulting anyone else and one rare moment of weakness has lead to this fiasco.

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I agree the rules ought to be undone but it's too much fun to point fingers not to! Besides, you can't say the buck stops entirely with Max Mosley because, against his own better judgement, he wrote a set of rules that the teams wanted and also complain, as folk usually did, when he ignored the wishes of the teams, as he usually tried to do. He did his level best to write the rules without consulting anyone else and one rare moment of weakness has lead to this fiasco.

I was talking about the FIA. I don't know why you want to put all the blame on Max.

Poor guy.

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Michael Schumacher shaving the gap to Nico by two-tenths in a few laps was a harbinger of what's to come. We all expected the man to dominate the race were let down when he stayed right where he started all race. Boring on the face of it, but there was a story brewing there if you chose to watch it and it was exciting to see. It was clear all the drivers were unsure how hard they could push but some of them did push and show their speed. Nico wasn't cruising, he was going almost all-out. Mikey was going less than that. For those few, magical laps Mikey showed us what he is still capable of. This story makes me want to turn the page to Australia.

Alonso's masterful drive. Yes his car wasn't the class of the field, but he showed Massa just how he got two WDCs. Lewis made a comment in the pre-race about how tough a competitor Fernando is. He said that just when he'd go out and set a mega lap, Fernando would better it. Alonso is a sleeper..he's very Prost-like in approach and will only go as fast as needed. Getting the car home with maximum points and never, never quiting is what he taught Massa and it was very fun to watch. I especially liked the part where Alonso pushed a bit and showed us just what speed he has held in reserve while looking after the tyres. As with Nico, I get the feeling Massa was holding less speed in reserve than Alonso.

I like Button. I really do. But I think Lewis will have him this season and it was a blast to see him come to grips with the tyres and the car set-up better than Button did. There was always the expectation that one of the driver's would blink and just go balls-out near the end and I was eagerly waiting for Lewis to turn it up. That he never really did (nobody really did) only hit me after the race. During the race I was excited about seeing it. I think on how the race made me feel while watching it, not ruminating on it afterwards and the McLaren boys kept me interested.

Overtaking, but not for the lead. I have never understood people who complain about no overtaking and flatly ignore the many battles that go on mid-pack. A pass is a pass and I don't give a damn where in the pecking order it is.

Martin Brundle. Nuff said. Even Ledgard grows on you, like that odd but well-meaning uncle that comes around for the holidays. Before anyone grabs the pitchforks and heads for old Johnny's house, kindly remember how endearing Murray Walker is. If you can't remember, enjoy this page of Murray Walker quotes.

Lotus on track. Green and yellow. Yellow rims. Lotus insignia on the nose. DC touching that insignia in the pre-race. In the words of Maure, it made me smile. It still needs a yellow windscreen.

Vettel losing the plot after he found that his slutty sally or whatever he calls his car had just admitted to giving him the clap. Brundle pointed this out far better than I can here. I love getting a look inside the driver's heads while they ply their trade and the look I got into Vettel's will be an ongoing saga.

Speaking of driver's heads, is anyone not excited to see Mikey, after the race, looking at the other cars? I think he's realized that he does have something to prove after all, but he had to get his butt handed to him by Keke's son in order to figure that out.

Right you are :clap3:

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I find all this talk about changing X, Y and Z pretty pointless. It'll probably just end up in a knee-jerk reaction making things horribly worse because people's judgement was clouded of what happened in just one race.

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They can't keep patching things up, adding layers of complexity, more loopholes and caveats every year in an attempt to hide their previous mistakes.

A few weeks back I read some comments about overtaking and the guy, some sort of F1 expert I think, said they would never solve the problem unless they look at it as a package. There's no point in changing the rules if you don't make them all work in the same direction. I think we can keep the no refuelling rule and still have good racing on track.

Bringing back refuelling will not solve F1’s overtaking problem

15 March 2010 by Keith Collantine petr_rena_bahr_2010_470150.jpg The first race of 2010 was a processional affair

After months of anticipation and despite a mouth-watering line-up of teams and drivers, not to mention the biggest grid in 15 years, the Bahrain Grand Prix was a damp squib. And that’s putting it politely.

But the F1 community – be it the fans, the teams or the rule makers – should not be too hasty to jump to conclusions after just one race.

And blaming the refuelling ban for yesterday’s uninspiring race would overlook more serious problems with competition in F1 that need to be fixed.

Long-time readers of this site will know I never had much time for F1’s refuelling era and was glad to see it dropped. Artificial jumbling of the running order holds no excitement for me.

I enjoy proper wheel-to-wheel racing. Genuine passes for position on the track and robust defensive driving. Neither of which we saw much of yesterday – or in quite a few races last year for that matter.

Blaming the refuelling ban for the lack of overtaking yesterday is a simplistic, knee-jerk reaction to a problem which has been around much longer and whose roots are more complicated.

Cars

96450367KR059_F1_Grand_Prix-208x117.jpg

Bahrain Grand Prix pictures

Over the winter the designers were left free to push the development of their cars’ aerodynamics without new restrictions. And, as has always been the case when they’re allowed to do that, the cars now produce more downforce and so are more sensitive to running in the air of a leading car.

That much was clear in the opening stages of yesterday’s race when Lewis Hamilton was unable to get within half a second of Nico Rosberg despite having a car that was up to a second faster per lap in clean air and the fastest in a straight line.

The improved aerodynamic performance of this year’s cars has been accompanied by a reduction in mechanical grip due to the narrower front tyres. The balance of the cars’ performance has shifted away from mechanical grip – which is not impaired by running behind another car – to aerodynamic downforce – which is impaired by running behind another car.

But it’s not just aerodynamics which has made it harder for one F1 car to follow another closely.

Running in the hot air of another car causes cooling problems, as we saw when Fernando Alonso caught Sebastian Vettel in the later stages of yesterday’s race. Alonso had to pull out from behind Vettel on the straights in order to keep cooler air flowing into his radiators.

This brings us to a third problem – the need to conserve car and engine life. Felipe Massa was being urged not to run closely behind other cars to avoid overheating his engine, which will have to do at least one, possible two more Grand Prix distances after this one.

In short, since the last race of 2009 it’s become harder for F1 cars to follow each other. And with none of the cars able to use KERS for a handy power boost, hardly anyone was able to get in range to make a pass.

The circuit

From the moment we first laid eyes on the revised Bahrain circuit, used for the first time by F1 this year, people were saying it would be no good for overtaking.

From the satellite photo alone you could tell it was too tight, too slow and too narrow. The race proved the organisers’ promise the section would “provide new overtaking opportunities” was well wide of the mark.

It wasn’t just in the F1 race that cars found it hard to pass on the new section. The GP2 Asia drivers couldn’t do much with it either but could still pass on the rest of the circuit. Incidentally, these are cars with tightly restricted spec aero, spec tyres, and no refuelling, and have consistently produced the best single-seater racing I’ve seen over the past six years. Sadly last weekend was their last scheduled outing.

The sheer length of the track played a part as well. The longer the lap a car has to do the less likely it is to encounter other cars. At around two minutes per lap every car on the grid could circulate five seconds apart. It’s no coincidence that Interlagos, which consistently produces some of the best races we see, is also one of the shortest tracks.

At the very least the circuit organisers should switch back to the normal layout for next year’s race. It’s no classic, but it’s far better than the configuration they used this year. And if they really want to make things interesting and increase opportunities for overtaking, they want to use their shorter ‘outer’ track.

Expectations

The first race was always going to struggle to live up to the pre-season expectations. We all wanted to see Schumacher battling with Alonso and the fight for supremacy at McLaren. What little racing there was seemed to be between the Virgins and Lotuses at the back of the field.

And in one respect we were unlucky. The Vettel/Alonso/Massa battle for the lead was getting close when the Red Bull driver’s exhaust packed in, spoiling the fun.

But we shouldn’t judge the entire season based on one race. The first Grand Prix of 2002 was a thriller but the rest of the year was largely forgettable. Was yesterday’s race really any worse than Istanbul or Singapore were last year with refuelling? I don’t think so.

The real problem

The fundamental problem is still that cars can’t follow each other closely. This is what the FIA needs to fix. Bringing in more mandatory pit stops and reintroducing refuelling would be like putting a sticking plaster on a broken leg.

Instead of over-reacting in a panicky fashion with ill thought-out changes the rule makers need to look at the big picture and understand how many of the technical changes in recent years have conspired to make it hard for cars to follow each other: engine use restrictions, rev limits, double diffusers and more.

Even after the Overtaking Working Group’s changes last year, F1 cars still can’t follow each other closely enough often enough. Encouragingly the FIA has already taken a step towards fixing it by banning double diffusers for 2011.

But they need to go further and consider not just cutting back downforce, but also looking at this problem of cars overheating when they run close behind a leading car.

That’s the real heart of F1’s overtaking problem. And solving it is much more challenging than just forcing more pit stops or bringing back refuelling.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/03/15/bringing-back-refuelling-will-not-solve-f1s-overtaking-problem/

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It's an interesting article but I don't think it's really getting to the heart of the matter either. Everyone knows how to make the cars more suitable for racing and hence more sensible. But it's a political rather than a technical challenge.

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It's an interesting article but I don't think it's really getting to the heart of the matter either. Everyone knows how to make the cars more suitable for racing and hence more sensible. But it's a political rather than a technical challenge.

Even some of the team bosses and Bernie admitted that.

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....yet

Hello, isn't there a global warming thread for you to preach to the converted, rather than making insipid replies to my posts?

My point was that he was so soundly beaten by Keke's son that the warmth of overconfidence was replaced by the fire of competition. Wasn't it fascinating to watch him go from confident to unsure to disgusted to realizing he'll need to up his game? None of that was an overtake on the track, but it's one dimension that I loved about Bahrain. That was my point.

Overconfidence? I didn't see any. Where did you see it? Were you taken in by the press hype? MS is no Alonso, he doesn't waste time talking himself up. Quite the opposite, he's one of the very few drivers who comes out and says hey my teammate was faster today. Schumacher doesn't do overconfidence, when exactly did you hear him say that he'll thrash nico?

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I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Nico beat Mikey in every regard over the course of the Bahrain weekend and the truth of that showed quite clearly on Mikey's face in the few interviews he spoke at.

But you're right about nobody ever beating him over a whole season, but that wasn't ever my point. My point was that he was so soundly beaten by Keke's son that the warmth of overconfidence was replaced by the fire of competition. Wasn't it fascinating to watch him go from confident to unsure to disgusted to realizing he'll need to up his game? None of that was an overtake on the track, but it's one dimension that I loved about Bahrain. That was my point.

Indeed. The prospect of seeing what Michael will do to improve his situation versus Nico and the rest of the field is a more interesting prospect than the racing itself. At this rate I'm going to stop living life and start watching soap opera's again.

Michael, back against the wall was usually a Michael who at least slept well because he was on top of his team mate. This time, he has to jump that hurdle first before even thinking about studying Mclaren's and bitching about rules.

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Hello, isn't there a global warming thread for you to preach to the converted, rather than making insipid replies to my posts?

Oooh such a rapier-sharp response...

Sorry for being insipid. I'll try harder next time:

Bollocks!

There you go, better? :)

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