Shummacher Myths To Be Destroyed One By One...

[shields 0]

Thats funny. Come back and say that when Rubinho has 7 world titles. Even then you can only say he is as good.

The fact Damon Hill has more WDC than Gilles Villeneuve does not make him better, does it?

Numbers alone does not mean anything if you dont consider the circunstances in which they were achieved...

Not saying Rubens was better than MS, cause it would be stupid from Ferrari to choose the worst driver as the #1.

All I am saying is that his numbers need to be carefully revisited...

And that, as of now, in this part of the season, Rubens is driving better than MS, in an inferior car...

[Kopite Girl 0]

The fact Damon Hill has more WDC than Gilles Villeneuve does not make him better, does it?

Numbers alone does not mean anything if you dont consider the circunstances in which they were achieved...

Not saying Rubens was better than MS, cause it would be stupid from Ferrari to choose the worst driver as the #1.

All I am saying is that his numbers need to be carefully revisited...

And that, as of now, in this part of the season, Rubens is driving better than MS, in an inferior car...

Balls, Bollocks, nuts, cajones, Sh#t.

Damon Hill and Gilles Villeneuve are from completely different era's. DID THEY RACE EACH OTHER? NO! Your comparisons are poor.

However Michael and Rubens did. IN THE SAME MACHINERY. That inferior car Bollocks you're spewing is tripe!

Rubens wasn't good enough to stand up and take what was his. That is the simple clear as day way it is.

Get over it now mate. Seriously.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Bernie told press Michael will walk away from F1 if he doesn´t has a car capable of... reach Nico´s... or a wining car... whatever... he needs a capable...ehr...emmm...DRIVER!

[Medilloni 6]

..........All I am saying is that his numbers need to be carefully revisited...

No they don't, the 'numbers' can't be changed, they're part of history, no matter how you think they were created.

Your opinion is clear (though fanboyish, if you don't mind me saying so), but that's all it is, and on the evidence so far it looks as though you're not going to change your opinion, so why would you think others would change their opinion? You have a non-argument.

I spent years absolutely hating Michael's approach to the sport, for me, he's one of a handful that polluted it (from a sportsmanship perspective, imo), but, behind the wheel? Only a blind man would say he wasn't truly magnificent to watch. His achievements are the result of the kind of skill and dedication that very few people are capable of applying (in sport, at least).

His driving skills before he came back are comparable to some of the sports greats, what you seem to be putting across is that his driving skills are questionable (over that time), well, there's 'chance', there's getting some lucky breaks, there's having a couple of seasons with a weaker team mate, but there isn't anything you can say about someone that hit the top so convincingly, so often, against some fabulous competition, that questions his ability to drive a racing car to the very, very highest level.

His return? Pedro DLR has said it takes a year at least to come back to a high level, he being slightly more experienced then me, I'll take that as authorative comment. It's possible that Michael won't achieve the same level that he did previously, and with Rubens staying and keeping his skills honed, being up-to-date with the (massively) changed tyres since MS was last racing, it would be no suprise to see Rubens giving MS a hard time. Furthermore, despite my past strong dislike for some of his better known antics, I watch him now and feel sorry for him, I wish he hadn't come back so that he, his wife and kids and his fans could keep those special years in their memory, without being spoilt by someone that, at the moment, isn't quite like he used to be.

I'll bet your an alright, intelligent person (no, not being sarcastic), but your posts about MS so far are just a nasty dose of knob cheese.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I spent years absolutely hating Michael's approach to the sport, for me, he's one of a handful that polluted it (from a sportsmanship perspective, imo), but, behind the wheel? Only a blind man would say he wasn't truly magnificent to watch. His achievements are the result of the kind of skill and dedication that very few people are capable of applying (in sport, at least).

His driving skills before he came back are comparable to some of the sports greats, what you seem to be putting across is that his driving skills are questionable (over that time), well, there's 'chance', there's getting some lucky breaks, there's having a couple of seasons with a weaker team mate, but there isn't anything you can say about someone that hit the top so convincingly, so often, against some fabulous competition, that questions his ability to drive a racing car to the very, very highest level.

His return? Pedro DLR has said it takes a year at least to come back to a high level, he being slightly more experienced then me, I'll take that as authorative comment. It's possible that Michael won't achieve the same level that he did previously, and with Rubens staying and keeping his skills honed, being up-to-date with the (massively) changed tyres since MS was last racing, it would be no suprise to see Rubens giving MS a hard time. Furthermore, despite my past strong dislike for some of his better known antics, I watch him now and feel sorry for him, I wish he hadn't come back so that he, his wife and kids and his fans could keep those special years in their memory, without being spoilt by someone that, at the moment, isn't quite like he used to be.

Perfect.

[freaky2 1]

You tell him Meds!! Hahah

[Argento Reloaded 1]

No they don't, the 'numbers' can't be changed, they're part of history, no matter how you think they were created.

Your opinion is clear (though fanboyish, if you don't mind me saying so), but that's all it is, and on the evidence so far it looks as though you're not going to change your opinion, so why would you think others would change their opinion? You have a non-argument.

I spent years absolutely hating Michael's approach to the sport, for me, he's one of a handful that polluted it (from a sportsmanship perspective, imo), but, behind the wheel? Only a blind man would say he wasn't truly magnificent to watch. His achievements are the result of the kind of skill and dedication that very few people are capable of applying (in sport, at least).

His driving skills before he came back are comparable to some of the sports greats, what you seem to be putting across is that his driving skills are questionable (over that time), well, there's 'chance', there's getting some lucky breaks, there's having a couple of seasons with a weaker team mate, but there isn't anything you can say about someone that hit the top so convincingly, so often, against some fabulous competition, that questions his ability to drive a racing car to the very, very highest level.

His return? Pedro DLR has said it takes a year at least to come back to a high level, he being slightly more experienced then me, I'll take that as authorative comment. It's possible that Michael won't achieve the same level that he did previously, and with Rubens staying and keeping his skills honed, being up-to-date with the (massively) changed tyres since MS was last racing, it would be no suprise to see Rubens giving MS a hard time. Furthermore, despite my past strong dislike for some of his better known antics, I watch him now and feel sorry for him, I wish he hadn't come back so that he, his wife and kids and his fans could keep those special years in their memory, without being spoilt by someone that, at the moment, isn't quite like he used to be.

I'll bet your an alright, intelligent person (no, not being sarcastic), but your posts about MS so far are just a nasty dose of knob cheese.

Perfect, but... i think MSC hads commited the worst of sins: he believed him so powerful he can defeat time! And no chance my friend; time will win at last. And those of us who were mere good players at whatever know that time is the fearest foe in our life. Even for you Michael. Be smart and come back home to play with your kids. You know... there is life beyond the steering wheel, and it´s wonderful!!!!

[shields 0]

You guys are getting me wrong... I never said he wasnt great, of course he was. Probably he was on the same league as many many other F1 drivers... Some of these other great great drivers had been lucky enough to be in a WDC able cars. Others havent... Like Gilles, and many others...

Damon Hill and Gilles Villeneuve are from completely different era's. DID THEY RACE EACH OTHER? NO! Your comparisons are poor.

So how can one say MS was the best ever driver in history?

Oops... Looks like your argument backfired...

According to you, no matter how many wins and WDC one gets, you can only compare him with someone in the same era, and in the same car...

So his increadible numbers dont tell the whole story, cause we never seen him facing a difficult situation or a difficult teamate... Which is exactly the point I was trying to make.

Many drivers looked great promises while no one could distinguish wether the performance was due to the car or the driver (humans tend to attribute it to the driver, kind of a reminiscence of the earthcentric ideas from middle age... pure egocentrism). Several other myths have fallen immediately after some driver had to confront a good enough teammate

Just suppose Weber was a poor driver who happily accepted to play #2 to Vettel. I am sure some guy would be telling Vettel is the new MS... (even if #2 driver status today is less severe that in old days under Jean Todt...)

But no. Thanks to Weber (and other decent teamates with #2 status but decent cars) we now Vettel is not God, and actually, Adrian Newey and his engineers are the real magic behind the scene...

I only started this thread, not because I dont like MS, but because no one really can say how good he was as the only two occasions he really face strong teammates in equal machinery (same onditions) were:

1- In his beginning of his career (again Piquet, and he did not get the better nor smashed him)

2- now, after retirement... I now he is rusty, but Nico was not impressing at Williams was he?

Is there any thing wrong with what I am saying?

Disconsidering these two points in his carreer is very convenient for a fanboy, as he really smashed teammates like EI, RB and JH.

But hey, imagine what we would be talking about Vettel now if his teammate was driving with old parts that fail race in race out...

Or if Alonso had Kova instead of LH in Mclaren (what a walkover)

Or ...

[Quiet One 15]

I u nderstand what you mean, Shields, and I must regrettably tell you that your question is not worth the time, nor the effort. You will never trully find out just how "great" MS was in an absolute sense, simply because there is no absolute sense of greatness. Was Fangio better or worse than MS? Yes, he won fewer WDCs, but the cars were more difficult to drive, the races were longer...or was it the other way around? Had Jesse Owens competed in the last Olympic Games against Usain Bolt instead of against the Nazi propaganda, would he be as great? (With apologies to Tanita and Alex) What if some of the most horrible mistakes in this past World Cup by the referees never happened? Perhaps England would have defeated Germany? And Argentina defeated England? Or maybe Mexico defeated Argentina if the first goal were invalidated as it should have? Is Rogert Federer that great? What iof he had to battle against the likes of Borg, Lendl, Vilas, McEnroe, Connors? Perhaps that era was more competitive? Or Djokovic is better? Who can possibly tell?

We can only as much as agree that at the time, THAT Schumi and THAT Ferrari were the best by far. Some common sense tells us that he was a great driver. Exactly how much is a fruitless discussion. How good would Alonso have been if there were no mass dampers since the beginning? What good is Button without the mighty BGP? Your questions will only arise more emotional replies or lead to dead ends of statistics which prove nothing.

I am a devout anti Schumi fan, but looking back sometimes at some of his displays I can't but recognize that there was _something_ beyond the mere mechanical means below his arse. You can hate Hamilton's antics as much as I do (I doubt you can hate him MORE than I do, though ) but you can feel when the guy goes defies the car's limits. You can utter all the crap you want against Alonso, but you can't be so blind as not to notice that he is no Yuji Ide with a better ride.

What else? De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum the Romans used to say. So, yes, MS is no god. He is a darn good driver and the fact that he is now facing a mediocre performance in a mediocre car when he didn't have yet he keeps trying to is either a source of pity or (at least for me) a source of unsuspected respect for the old man.

SO, as you can see, I mostly agree with your assessment on MS. I just can't see what else do you expect from this thread except some people agreeing and some people agreeing to disagree.

[HandyNZL 1]

I u nderstand what you mean, Shields, and I must regrettably tell you that your question is not worth the time, nor the effort. You will never trully find out just how "great" MS was in an absolute sense, simply because there is no absolute sense of greatness. Was Fangio better or worse than MS? Yes, he won fewer WDCs, but the cars were more difficult to drive, the races were longer...or was it the other way around? Had Jesse Owens competed in the last Olympic Games against Usain Bolt instead of against the Nazi propaganda, would he be as great? (With apologies to Tanita and Alex) What if some of the most horrible mistakes in this past World Cup by the referees never happened? Perhaps England would have defeated Germany? And Argentina defeated England? Or maybe Mexico defeated Argentina if the first goal were invalidated as it should have? Is Rogert Federer that great? What iof he had to battle against the likes of Borg, Lendl, Vilas, McEnroe, Connors? Perhaps that era was more competitive? Or Djokovic is better? Who can possibly tell?

We can only as much as agree that at the time, THAT Schumi and THAT Ferrari were the best by far. Some common sense tells us that he was a great driver. Exactly how much is a fruitless discussion. How good would Alonso have been if there were no mass dampers since the beginning? What good is Button without the mighty BGP? Your questions will only arise more emotional replies or lead to dead ends of statistics which prove nothing.

I am a devout anti Schumi fan, but looking back sometimes at some of his displays I can't but recognize that there was _something_ beyond the mere mechanical means below his arse. You can hate Hamilton's antics as much as I do (I doubt you can hate him MORE than I do, though ) but you can feel when the guy goes defies the car's limits. You can utter all the crap you want against Alonso, but you can't be so blind as not to notice that he is no Yuji Ide with a better ride.

What else? De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum the Romans used to say. So, yes, MS is no god. He is a darn good driver and the fact that he is now facing a mediocre performance in a mediocre car when he didn't have yet he keeps trying to is either a source of pity or (at least for me) a source of unsuspected respect for the old man.

SO, as you can see, I mostly agree with your assessment on MS. I just can't see what else do you expect from this thread except some people agreeing and some people agreeing to disagree.

So what you're saying, in a nutshell, is that Wanda was a fish?

[Guest gforce56]

The fact Damon Hill has more WDC than Gilles Villeneuve does not make him better, does it?

Numbers alone does not mean anything if you dont consider the circunstances in which they were achieved...

Not saying Rubens was better than MS, cause it would be stupid from Ferrari to choose the worst driver as the #1.

All I am saying is that his numbers need to be carefully revisited...

And that, as of now, in this part of the season, Rubens is driving better than MS, in an inferior car...

Yes, look at the numbers and circumstances. MS is 41 and was totally out of F1 for 3 years. Those are your realistic figures...

It's just mid-season, there is more to come. We don't wanna eat our words by season's end...

[Kopite Girl 0]

Explain how its backfired when I said to you how can you compare two different drivers from different decades in different cars? If Damon and GV raced in the same team in the same package at the same time then yes, you could say that Damon was the better racer because there's a title under his belt. You can't say it for different decades, etc. Rules are different, point scoring, car speed, technology, opponents. Everything.

Michael and Rubens did however race together. You can compare. Michael is better -I'll concede the word WAS to you- and its proven.

Nice try by trying to twist my words but it didn't work.

I'm not questioning you as a person. You seem nice enough. I'm not attacking you personally or calling you stupid or pretending to ignore you. I'm just telling you how I see it. I cannot agree with your views.

You say you are not saying that Schumacher is bad and etc. I'm saying that yes, he made twatty rash decisions. But you cannot deny no matter how much controversy surrounds him. He is one of if not the best F1 driver, ever.

[Silas Talbot 0]

From this article

Mercedes driver Michael Schumacher has lashed out at the new Formula One rules that prevent any form of in season testing. When the seven time world champion left the sport three years ago, the amount of testing done was up to the individual team, and now, just when he needs it to get to grips with the new cars, it has been outlawed altogether.

...

As a result of the testing ban, Michael qualified in eleventh place for his home race this weekend as they were unable to get the best performance out of their new upgrade package due to no testing time.

So much for journalistic neutrality... narrative much?

Darn testing ban ruining what otherwise would have been Schumi's 8th championship

fer shure.

[Quiet One 15]

From this article

So much for journalistic neutrality... narrative much?

Darn testing ban ruining what otherwise would have been Schumi's 8th championship

fer shure.[/font]

[/size]

Yeah, I read that too and had the same thoughts.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Does that mean that MS enjoyed an easier car during most of his career, and maybe the main cause for his "human" or "just regular" season is the lack of traction control or other aids???

Maybe he win a race this year, and I really expect him to do so... But that is not impossible as Fisico, Panis and others already won in an even poorer car ... But feel free to write here when he does... That is what Forums are for...

The Fisi and Panis wins were very wet races and a bit of a lottery. Surely you cant think MS will win a race this year??

I'm pretty sure MS did drive when there were not driving aids.

For instance, maybe, just maybe, Rubens was indeed getting 2nd preferential treatment, and his car was never the way he liked, just like what may be happening with Michael.

I never believed Rubens was that worst than MS... I think in equal conditions the two would split the wins and points in almost equal terms... like 60-40 or 55-45%...

What Rubens is doing in a Williams suggests just that...

Dont forget Rubens also got his butt kicked by Button at Honda/Brawn for 4 years. Rubens was annihilated by Schumacher right from the start, even before any possible preferential treatment/team orders came into play.

Pedro DLR has said it takes a year at least to come back to a high level, he being slightly more experienced then me, I'll take that as authorative comment.

DLR might have just been saying that to try & justify his own poor performance this year!

Prost didnt seem too shabby when he returned to F1 in 1993, neither did Mansell in 1994 (although he had been racing Indy cars in 93 so not quite the same)

[shields 0]

Yes, look at the numbers and circumstances. MS is 41 and was totally out of F1 for 3 years. Those are your realistic figures...

Yes, I agree, that is why I said I regret this was the only point in his career where we see him fighting against a "reasonable" teammate (Rosberg was nothing extraordinary at Williams) in an "apparent" equal status...

I do agree that he is now older, but he though he could comeback, so this should be no excuse...Anyway, I am not saying he is not good. And all I mean is: we cannot measure how good he was/is, because of the circumstances...

On the other hand, you fanboys keep saying he is the best ever...

And I think it is clear for everyone in which circumstances he' s got his 8 titles...

It's just mid-season, there is more to come. We don't wanna eat our words by season's end...

Anxiously waiting for a good performance...

But the question is: would one starling performance will be enough?

He already proved a few things:

1- it is not like he will seat in a car a learn fast how to get the most out of that car;

2- he does need a car designed around him, and he got that throughout his whole career... Which makes us question: what it his teammates liked the car a bit different, but as he was #1, they would never get it from the design and set up team??? Maybe RB EI and the others were not slower than him at all... They just were in the same situation he (MS) is now up against Rosberg...

3- He does look miserable in a car that is not the way he like.

4- there are people in inferior car that are performing much better than him (Rubens, for instance...) and others getting the better now and them (Sutil... Alguersuari... Petrov...)

Explain how its backfired when I said to you how can you compare two different drivers from different decades in different cars? If Damon and GV raced in the same team in the same package at the same time then yes, you could say that Damon was the better racer because there's a title under his belt. You can't say it for different decades, etc. Rules are different, point scoring, car speed, technology, opponents. Everything.

That is exactly my point: how can you say MS is better than Jenson Button? Or Alonso? Or LH? or Kimi? or whoelse?How can someone sane say he is the best ever??? See my point?

Michael and Rubens did however race together. You can compare. Michael is better -I'll concede the word WAS to you- and its proven.

No. It is not proven. What it is proven is that Ferrari though he was better, and decided to focus on him... Or that the car in 200x was for Rubens what Mercedez is for Michael today. (not as bad, cause Rubens was not as miserable as MS is today... Or maybe Rubens could deal better with a car outside his likes)The truth is Rubens never had the same opportunity as him. I am not saying he was better, nor that Ferrari should not choose a #1 driver...

All I am saying is that F1 is not necessarely about who is the best driver... It is a team game, and conclusions other than "that team was the best that year" are insane... Going beyond and saying "this is the best driver in history" is irreversible madness...

Nice try by trying to twist my words but it didn't work.

I'm not questioning you as a person. You seem nice enough. I'm not attacking you personally or calling you stupid or pretending to ignore you. I'm just telling you how I see it. I cannot agree with your views.

No problem at all... Forums are for discussion...

You say you are not saying that Schumacher is bad and etc. I'm saying that yes, he made twatty rash decisions. But you cannot deny no matter how much controversy surrounds him. He is one of if not the best F1 driver, ever.

Yeah. I agree to that. He was among the best drivers of F1. We probably we only differ in the number of best drivers he is amongst...

Apparently, I am much more skeptical about how can you measure a good driver than you, so in my opinion there were about 15-20 drivers amongst the best with him one of them...

About he maybe being one of the best F1 drivers...

I doubt it, but it may be possible...

In my humble opinion, to be considered the best ever in F1, he would need to do what Jenson Button did this season: offered the world an opportunity to be measured up against someone.A risky movement, I agree, but that is the only way to the title of the best ever...

[Kopite Girl 0]

You can compare Michael to Jenson, Kimi, etc. He raced alongside them.

Seriously. You have no point at all. The simple fact is my friend that I am correct and you are not.

Please try to grasp the fact that Rubens could have done a better job. If you want it badly enough, you'll do anything to succeed. Simple.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

There is a myth his comeback hadn´t destroyed: he is a bad sportsman! What he do with Rubinho yesterday is criminal!

[YHR 0]

What I find so interesting in these discussions is how much weight the driver contribution has in the race outcome.

MS was a great driver racing in an even greater car. Ferrari built that car for MS's driving style. It was a marriage made in Heaven. I don't care how good or great a driver is, the car, and it's relationship with it's tires is still the largest part of the WINNING EQUATION.

MS helped Ferrari build that car, and then went on to prove he was capable enough to drive it at a superb level.

Without that mix and teamwork, MS would have never won 7 WDC's. However the team stayed together and focused, and Micheal benefitted as a result.

His skill and success are unquestionable, but he is not a racing god. Just like every other driver out there, he needed the complete package. Anyone who thought MS was going to come back to a new team, and prove anything was living in a fantasy world. Mercedes have not yet built Micheals car, and they might not even be capable of doing it.

MS and Ferrari were special.

[shields 0]

You can compare Michael to Jenson, Kimi, etc. He raced alongside them.

You are not serious are you? They were in different cars...

By your reasoning Alonso was better than MS, hands down...

And Mika... And JV in 1997...

YHR, agree with you, and that was exactly one of the points I was trying to make...

[Jean Todt 4]

Alright...can you all just shut up? Its over....he said sorry..he has accepted what he did was wrong.....

Schumacher apologises to Barrichello

Monday, August 2nd 2010, 14:04 GMT

Michael Schumacher has apologised to Rubens Barrichello for his driving during the Hungarian Grand Prix on Sunday.

The seven-time champion was given a ten-place grid penalty for the Belgian GP after squeezing Barrichello against the pitwall on the main straight as the Brazilian tried to pass him during yesterday's race.

The move angered Barrichello, who was critical of Schumacher's driving.

Schumacher said after the race that he did not feel he had done anything wrong.

However, on Monday the Mercedes driver said he agreed with the stewards' decision and apologised to Barrichello if the Brazilian felt his driving was dangerous.

"Yesterday, right after the race I was still in the heat of the action, but after I watched the incident with Rubens again, I must say that the stewards were right with their assessment: the move against him was too hard," Schumacher wrote on his website.

"I wanted to make it hard for him to pass me. I clearly showed him that I didn't want to let him pass but... I wasn't seeking to endanger him with my move. If he feels I was then I'm sorry, this wasn't my intention."

[maure 1]

Schumacher was always dirty. What's the fuss about? Poor Barrichello got his feelings hurt? Geez, whiner, you got the pass and position, what else is there? Want more pity thrown into your career? Move on. Schuamcher certainly has and, you can bet your arse, that he doesn't think twice about you. So Barrichello, do yourself a favor and do likewise.

[dribbler 6]

Schumacher was always dirty. What's the fuss about? Poor Barrichello got his feelings hurt? Geez, whiner, you got the pass and position, what else is there? Want more pity thrown into your career? Move on. Schuamcher certainly has and, you can bet your arse, that he doesn't think twice about you. So Barrichello, do yourself a favor and do likewise.

Schumacher's move was not only stupid but it was the sure sign of a man using tools from the 'desperate' draw in his tool chest because the other tools aren't working. You make a poor exit from a corner onto a straight? You lose the next corner. Fight to defend, yes, but not like that. It made me cringe.

As for Michael not thinking twice about Rubens? Not so sure. He may be thinking that Rubens is in fine form and/or knowing that Michael was normallly superior, just how far Michael's knowledge base on the current cars and tyres has slipped.

I don't think Michael should hang up his helmet and walk away, far from it. But I really think he needs to focus more on maximising what he has by understanding it and maybe asking more questions about himself (if he isn't already)and not defending the indefendable. Racing instinct is one thing. Not excepting when you are beaten, fair and square is something quite different.

[Quiet One 15]

Schumacher's move was not only stupid but it was the sure sign of a man using tools from the 'desperate' draw in his tool chest because the other tools aren't working. You make a poor exit from a corner onto a straight? You lose the next corner. Fight to defend, yes, but not like that. It made me cringe.

As for Michael not thinking twice about Rubens? Not so sure. He may be thinking that Rubens is in fine form and/or knowing that Michael was normallly superior, just how far Michael's knowledge base on the current cars and tyres has slipped.

I don't think Michael should hang up his helmet and walk away, far from it. But I really think he needs to focus more on maximising what he has by understanding it and maybe asking more questions about himself (if he isn't already)and not defending the indefendable. Racing instinct is one thing. Not excepting when you are beaten, fair and square is something quite different.

Yup.

[dribbler 6]

'Accepting', not 'excepting'. Pardon, cest le vin rouge.