Shummacher Myths To Be Destroyed One By One...

[Caesar 0]

Interesting article from Jonny Herbert http://www.thenation...y-young-drivers

Does anyone else agree that Schumacher is still as good as he was but that the rest are now better? I disagree. In fact, I can't believe that Herbert thinks this. In effect, it would mean that the likes of Petrov are better than Michael ever was. Has the art of going around corners really improved that much in five years? I'm still of the opinion that Michael simply isn't as fast as he was. Michael was at his most controversial when under pressure and made some questionable decisions as a result. All very well when your car is great and you're out front. His desperate attempt to hold position when he the corner was clearly lost to Vitaly in Istanbul smacked of Adelaide '94 and Jerez '97 all over again. These two incidents used to drive me crazy when people constantly referred to them. The thing is, now he is firmly on the back foot with pace, car and race craft - the potential for 'under pressure' incidents are cropping up almost every race. No wonder he looke so sour after Turkey. I feel very sorry for him, but it's time to hang up the helmet for good.

Michael, I want to see you at Spa, Monaco and Monza one last time, but no more after this year. Go enjoy your family and all that cash.

+1 (how great schumi was in his best days shows the fact that he today, as 42 year old, can cope with much younger drivers)

[yurp 0]

IMO Schumi was great at the start of his career but has been tailing off ever since his third(ish) WDC.

When he started in F1 he had some great drives in cars that weren't the best, but he was always always going forward through the field. He was always overtaking others and rarely being overtaken himself. Once he got his drive at ferrari he was away and never needed to look back.

There is an art to both overtaking and being overtaken and Schumi never really needed the second.

It's important to know when to give up the racing line, when not to turn in, when to stop pushing another car up against the wall.

If you put him in a RB right now I think he'd be not too far behind Webber. I honestly do. The difference between him and Vettel would be down to age and Vettel being used to being at the very front for a year or so. But it wouldn't be as massive difference as it now appears.

What's making him look so bad right now is when he defends (too agressively) a position which he's already lost in a car that is sub-standard.

What's worse is that Merc seems to be intent on quallifying high on the grid while their race-pace suffers. They need to set up more for the race and quallify lower - then they may be able to pick up places through the race rather than lose them.

[dribbler 6]

What's worse is that Merc seems to be intent on quallifying high on the grid while their race-pace suffers. They need to set up more for the race and quallify lower - then they may be able to pick up places through the race rather than lose them.

What in your opinion are they maximising in qualifying trim that is hurting their race pace? Of the issuses I am aware of, cooling is not relevant to this point. I am not aware of them suffering particularly high tyre degradation in race trim either.

I think the picture is being distorted by Rosberg qualifying the car higher than normal (just how Trulli used to) and Michael not qualifying as strongly, with a weaker race pace than Rosberg.

[yurp 0]

What in your opinion are they maximising in qualifying trim that is hurting their race pace? Of the issuses I am aware of, cooling is not relevant to this point. I am not aware of them suffering particularly high tyre degradation in race trim either.

I think the picture is being distorted by Rosberg qualifying the car higher than normal (just how Trulli used to) and Michael not qualifying as strongly, with a weaker race pace than Rosberg.

You could well be right.

I was basing that particular opinion on the Mercs going backward during the race compared to the other cars that quallified just behind them. I had inferred from this that mercs had decided on a different ratio of qually setup to race setup (in terms of how important they treated each in comparison to the other) than the other teams and that this was hurting them on Sundays. Saying that, it could be that their race pace simply can't get any better and it just happens that their car is much better with low fuel over one quick lap compared to the renaults/ferraris - if that is the case they might be putting everything (set up wise) into race pace and still coming up short.

[dribbler 6]

You could well be right.

I was basing that particular opinion on the Mercs going backward during the race compared to the other cars that quallified just behind them. I had inferred from this that mercs had decided on a different ratio of qually setup to race setup (in terms of how important they treated each in comparison to the other) than the other teams and that this was hurting them on Sundays. Saying that, it could be that their race pace simply can't get any better and it just happens that their car is much better with low fuel over one quick lap compared to the renaults/ferraris - if that is the case they might be putting everything (set up wise) into race pace and still coming up short.

Yes, I understand that. My question was, what specifically in the set up is making the car compromised on a sunday? It's clear that the car is better when lighter (relative to the others), but why?

[yurp 0]

Yes, I understand that. My question was, what specifically in the set up is making the car compromised on a sunday? It's clear that the car is better when lighter (relative to the others), but why?

Ah - I see.

I'm not entirely sure. One thing that was curious was that the Merc was hitting the limiter all the way down the straight during qually because they were gearing it (one presumes) for a good 7th gear in the race - or so Martin said - and I always go with Martin. Whatever the reason the other teams aren't having quite such issues - makes me think they're struggling in the transmission/drive train department.

Also - from a different angle - it could be that they can use DRS anywhere in the lap in qually and they need to adjust their rear wing configeration to give less downforce in places where DRS can't be used during the race. Perhaps they have to modify that rear wing and deal with less downforce for qually.

These are fairly wild shots in the dark - perhaps others have some better ideas or can expand on these.

[dribbler 6]

Ah - I see.

I'm not entirely sure. One thing that was curious was that the Merc was hitting the limiter all the way down the straight during qually because they were gearing it (one presumes) for a good 7th gear in the race - or so Martin said - and I always go with Martin. Whatever the reason the other teams aren't having quite such issues - makes me think they're struggling in the transmission/drive train department.

Also - from a different angle - it could be that they can use DRS anywhere in the lap in qually and they need to adjust their rear wing configeration to give less downforce in places where DRS can't be used during the race. Perhaps they have to modify that rear wing and deal with less downforce for qually.

These are fairly wild shots in the dark - perhaps others have some better ideas or can expand on these.

Other teams were bouncing off the limiter in qualifying too. As I think you have already identified, this is because the cars are heavier in race trim and far less likely to hit the limiter. However, you would not gear the final drive for qualifying as max revs would then not be achieved come Sunday. I don't think Mercedes have any particular transmission issues, it's just a consequence of not being able to fettle the cars in parc ferme conditions.

Having given it some thought; we already know that Rosberg was hurt by having to conserve fuel in China. Maybe Mercedes fuel the car much less than the competition, giving them a qualifying edge, but are then in preservation mode. This would be fine if they were able to box in others behind them and maybe just increase the pace before pit stops in order to hold position. But with DRS being so effective in allowing quicker cars to pass, this strategy does not work. This would explain why Rosberg has fallen backwards in the last two races. They should compromise their qualifying by fuelling higher, giving the drivers the opportunity to push when they need to. The Mercedes has grunt. Damn shame if you can't use it.

[Rainmaster 7]

I read somewhere the Mercedes had the best DRS (when working) which would at least contribute to the difference in qualifying pace and race pace. Obviously, it probably isn't just that. I think Brawn admitted after Turkey that Mercedes need to focus much more on race pace (setup) rather than qualifying.

[freaky2 1]

Other teams were bouncing off the limiter in qualifying too. As I think you have already identified, this is because the cars are heavier in race trim and far less likely to hit the limiter. However, you would not gear the final drive for qualifying as max revs would then not be achieved come Sunday. I don't think Mercedes have any particular transmission issues, it's just a consequence of not being able to fettle the cars in parc ferme conditions.

Having given it some thought; we already know that Rosberg was hurt by having to conserve fuel in China. Maybe Mercedes fuel the car much less than the competition, giving them a qualifying edge, but are then in preservation mode. This would be fine if they were able to box in others behind them and maybe just increase the pace before pit stops in order to hold position. But with DRS being so effective in allowing quicker cars to pass, this strategy does not work. This would explain why Rosberg has fallen backwards in the last two races. They should compromise their qualifying by fuelling higher, giving the drivers the opportunity to push when they need to. The Mercedes has grunt. Damn shame if you can't use it.

But they qualify on one-lap fuel loads now...

[Quiet One 15]

The strategic nightmare comes from the fact that qualy setups are radically different from race setups now. [Here I wrote a lot of uncomprehensible ramblings which are much more adequately explained at James Allen's Blog, strategy report so I encourage you to read it]

[dribbler 6]

But they qualify on one-lap fuel loads now...

Yes I know. I shouldn't have said that they should 'compromise their qualifying by fuelling higher'. I meant to say, they should compromise their weight advantage by fuelling heavier at the start, allowing them to run at maximum engine power during the race.

Thing is, they have already done the calculations and worked out that running lighter at the start must be quicker overall (even after factoring in having to conserve fuel as the race progresses). This strategy only works when there is rain and/or safety cars.

[yurp 0]

Other teams were bouncing off the limiter in qualifying too. As I think you have already identified, this is because the cars are heavier in race trim and far less likely to hit the limiter. However, you would not gear the final drive for qualifying as max revs would then not be achieved come Sunday. I don't think Mercedes have any particular transmission issues, it's just a consequence of not being able to fettle the cars in parc ferme conditions.

Having given it some thought; we already know that Rosberg was hurt by having to conserve fuel in China. Maybe Mercedes fuel the car much less than the competition, giving them a qualifying edge, but are then in preservation mode. This would be fine if they were able to box in others behind them and maybe just increase the pace before pit stops in order to hold position. But with DRS being so effective in allowing quicker cars to pass, this strategy does not work. This would explain why Rosberg has fallen backwards in the last two races. They should compromise their qualifying by fuelling higher, giving the drivers the opportunity to push when they need to. The Mercedes has grunt. Damn shame if you can't use it.

Agreed - other teams where hitting the limiter, but merc was hitting it earlier and for longer during each straight. I thought that was curious. Not sure if it's really related to their race-trim problems - like a said - somewhat of a shot in the dark.

The fuel theory is an interesting and feasable one. I I understood what you mean by fueling more (at the start of the race) and setting up in qually for that from your further clarification of freaky's post.

I read somewhere the Mercedes had the best DRS (when working) which would at least contribute to the difference in qualifying pace and race pace. Obviously, it probably isn't just that. I think Brawn admitted after Turkey that Mercedes need to focus much more on race pace (setup) rather than qualifying.

Yep - that's a clearer explanation of what I was getting at with my second idea yesterday. If their DRS makes such a big difference then it'll be helping them during qually, but that pace won't be translated into the race when they can only use it in 1 place per lap. It must be hard to guage how much difference in downforce they require between the car with DRS activated vs not. Counter intuitively it might actually be better not to have so much of a difference because if there is too much difference the results of any setup would vary more from qually to race. Also - the funny thing about DRS is that the flap opens quickly - in a perfect world it would open progressively in relation to speed - then shut fast on breaking (as it does now). But since that's the same for everyone, I doubt it's related to mercs specific woes.

[Senna's Ghost 0]

I've been watching MSC at the start of 2011 and I thought that his performances have been a little better than those of 2010, still nowhere near as good as I thought he would be when he announced his return at the end of '09 mind you. His Turkey race was ...a turkey. In FP1 he had more spins than Rock around the Clock has had. Now that is nothing new for Schumi, when he was winning everything back in the 90's and noughties he would often go off during the FP sessions but he rarely made those mistakes in quali or the race. Now, mistakes and errors of judgement seem to be occuring for him during the race (Petrov incident). In Turkey he was competitive in the practice sessions, but come qualifying he was way behind Rosberg (1.1 secs). Unheard of for Schumacher. His post quali interview showed that he didn't have a clue why he was so far behind Rosberg. Maybe the one thing that he hadn't factored into the equation was his inability to perform at a higher level?

I think he has lost his edge and I don't know if he'll ever recapture it. The only other driver on the grid that we can compare him with is Barrichello. I asked myself the question, if Barrichello were driving for MGP would he be more competitve than MSC is now? My answer was yes, I think Ruebens would be faster than Michael. Can this really be blamed on his three year absence form the sport now that he's got one year behind him?

When Schumacher was winning at Ferrari the press would ask Ross Brawn what was so special about Schumacher, what made him different from the rest. Brawn would say that Schumacher could take an uncompetitive car and make it competitive. That he, Schumacher, could bring speed to the car and drive it at a level that no-one else could achieve for lap after lap. Well, it looks like those days are long gone. He's clearly driving the Mercedes well within it's performance envelope.

Schumacher has another year on his contract remaining. Now I don't know if this is an option year or if it is a cast in stone year. Either way, if he doesn't have a blinder for the rest of the season I can't see him on the grid in 2012, whether he pulls the plug himself or he is encouraged to do so by the Mercedes management.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Shouldn´t this thread be at "Historical F1"?

[dribbler 6]

Shouldn´t this thread be at "Historical F1"?

[Rainmaster 7]

http://sniffpetrol.com/2011/05/13/f1-driver-takes-out-injunction/

[dribbler 6]

http://sniffpetrol.com/2011/05/13/f1-driver-takes-out-injunction/

[pabloh20 1]

http://sniffpetrol.com/2011/05/13/f1-driver-takes-out-injunction/

Is it the stig??

[HandyNZL 1]

Hehehe thats funny

[Rainmaster 7]

Is it the stig??

Come on, we all know the stig would be doing much better

[pabloh20 1]

Come on, we all know the stig would be doing much better

Ouch!

[dribbler 6]

http://www.formula1fancast.com/2011/08/formula-1-news/schumacher-i-could-retire-soon

If Michael has allowed this sort of opinion to enter the public domain, to me it's a clear sign he intends to retire. Normally, no other driver has been better at being positive about his own ability. Thoughts aired like these must mean he has already made his mind up (unless it's a cry for a rally of support, not something he has ever done before).

I don't want to see him go, but it might just be the right time.

[yurp 0]

http://www.formula1f...uld-retire-soon

If Michael has allowed this sort of opinion to enter the public domain, to me it's a clear sign he intends to retire. Normally, no other driver has been better at being positive about his own ability. Thoughts aired like these must mean he has already made his mind up (unless it's a cry for a rally of support, not something he has ever done before).

I don't want to see him go, but it might just be the right time.

TBH Steve - I think the right time for Schumi to retire would have been sometime around say 2006.

Hang on!

To recap the last couple of years - I said, "let's wait and see" when he failed to impress for the first half of 2010. I gave him the benefit of the doubt when the rest of his season carried on the same way and said, "give him another year and we'll see what happens if Merc can give him a better car." After a lackluster first half of 2011, I think it's finally time to accept that his comeback was a ill-conceived move. Okay - it wasn't a disaster - he still beat most of the field and retains a seat in a pretty good team - but it just hasn't been the epilogue to his career that many (included himself) had hoped for. I think graceful retirement is the best option for him now and I think he knows it too. I think he is also aware that if he doesn't choose to go, he may well be put out to pasture by Merc anyway - which would be understandably distressing at his advanced age. Better to leave amicably and for it to look like his own wishes.

[Quiet One 15]

Am I the only one to disagree? I don't think he should retire, unless he really feels too frustrated.

I always thought that he retired because there weren't many challenges for him to beat (and to keep sponsors happy) but he still was having fun and enjoying what he did. It was just that he was in no position to become more than the god he once were.

And I think he came back not because he felt he still had anything to prove to himself or anybody else but just because he missed racing. As a former god of the sport, he could afford the luxury of coming back to F1 just for kicks, like any of us would go tto a kart circuit.

So, if he is having fun and Merc does not have anything better to replace him (and I don't think they have...I mean, Di Resta instead of Schumi? What for????) then let the old man race and have a blast!

As in 2006, I think that if he leaves, it will be more out of pressure from others than from inner belief that he is too old for this.

[Rainmaster 7]

From my pov he should retire because somebody else could do better (and yes, I am sure there are drivers available next season who could match/beat Rosberg). If he's having fun good for him, but it's what he does on the track that should concern any fan of the sport. An argument for Schui staying is an argument for underachievement.