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rodders47

1.5 Litre Turbo'S Way To Go

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Well even though it is a rumour at the moment, even the thought that someone is thinking of the return to 1.5 Litre Turbo's is good IMHO.

Add to this power plant an unrestricted KERS system BUT make the engines run on 85% Ethanol ( like the V8 Supercars in OZ) and I am sure that this would generate a whole bunch of "Greenies" onboard through sponsorship etc. The V8's don't seem to have had any performance decrease running E85.

Gotta be the way to go along with the Michelin idea of larger wheel rims and smaller profile tyres this would bring F1 back to the general public as far as what is available and used on our normal roads today, maybe not the 1.5 L Turbo, but all the other GREEN things.

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Well even though it is a rumour at the moment, even the thought that someone is thinking of the return to 1.5 Litre Turbo's is good IMHO.

Add to this power plant an unrestricted KERS system BUT make the engines run on 85% Ethanol ( like the V8 Supercars in OZ) and I am sure that this would generate a whole bunch of "Greenies" onboard through sponsorship etc. The V8's don't seem to have had any performance decrease running E85.

Gotta be the way to go along with the Michelin idea of larger wheel rims and smaller profile tyres this would bring F1 back to the general public as far as what is available and used on our normal roads today, maybe not the 1.5 L Turbo, but all the other GREEN things.

I agree with most of what you propose. You can get a lot of grunt from a 1.5 unit but to get really lean, you need a turbo and a 2.5 lump would best suit that. Michelin's proposals are very good but I can see problems with warming lo-pros. There is not a lot of margin and if the tyre doesn't inflate to the maximum on colder surfaces, things could go pear-shaped. KERS is pure innovation, expensive but good and I would like to see it as a mandatory addition to all cars next year. Otherwise, we continue in the Stone Age. That is not what F1 is about. Ethanol? In a V8, it may be OK. I'd like to see some performance data on a E85/V6 turbo configuration. As far as 'Greenies' jumping on board, I think we may have to wait for an All-Electric Formula One before we see much movement on that front.

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I started laughing when I saw the word Ethanol.

Want to know the big problem with Ethanol?

It's existance.

Other minor issues include:

  • No auto manufacture beyond General Motors (and they're doing just fine, right?) actually supported Ethanol.
  • And that was for like...a year?
  • And only available on like...massive SUVs?
  • That no one bought?
  • Or bought and then just put petrol in anyway?
  • It takes 1.2 gallons of petrol to make 1 gallon of Ethanol. Efficiency FTL.
  • If refueling stayed banned, Ethanol yields worse fuel economy than petrol. Fuel tanks would be the size of George.
  • No one likes Ethanol.
  • There are better alternatives to Ethanol.
  • No one likes it.
  • Used on normal roads today? Not Ethanol, at least not in F1's target market of Europe.

The auto manufactures see no use in Ethanol. Look at IndyCar; they use E98 Ethanol. They invited Volkswagen, Fiat, Judd, Cosworth, Ford, etc to be a part of the next-generation IndyCar engine in 2012. They were told by all that they'd need to ditch Ethanol. Only Honda North America will run Ethanol; and they only do it because they make a profit off their engine supply program (engines are built by Ilmor and badged as Honda; Honda then makes all the teams lease them for a good amount of money). HNA would lease the engines regardless of the fuel since they're not even the ones making them (that's why they keep the horsepower so low so they never have to do a lot of repairs).

Would going green make sense for Formula 1? Of course. Would being slightly more road-relevant make some sense, too? I don't see why not. Ethanol really doesn't solve any problems other than getting a FOTA series to start.

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  • If refueling stayed banned, Ethanol yields worse fuel economy than petrol. Fuel tanks would be the size of George.

I actually think George fits into one (not a Virgin fuel tank but still :P), despite all the KFC he eats :P

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  • If refueling stayed banned, Ethanol yields worse fuel economy than petrol. Fuel tanks would be the size of George.

Totally uncalled for :nono1::(

I actually think George fits into one (not a Virgin fuel tank but still :P), despite all the KFC he eats :P

Thank you Tanita, I think :P

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Ole

Remember the last turbos of 88 supplied by Honda. 1.5ltr with 2.5 bar pressure, FIA controlled pop off valve added giving about 750 - 850 bhp. What would the new spec be I wonder with the advances that have been made in engine technology since then?

Your thoughts um beijo

Tchau.

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F**k off!! My mam's Peugeot 307 has a bigger engine than that!

Ermmm, there's many cars out there with bigger engines than the current 2.4l regulation.

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Ermmm, there's many cars out there with bigger engines than the current 2.4l regulation.

True but not many of those 2.4L+ cars are Pugs!

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True but not many of those 2.4L+ cars are Pugs!

No, not many, but then again how many 1.5L pugs develop 800-1000bhp, though??? :lol:

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No, not many, but then again how many 1.5L pugs develop 800-1000bhp, though??? :lol:

Yeah but they were the 80's turbos, IMO the FIA will allow super low pressure turbo's so they produce around the same of not less power than the current 2.4L N/A V8's! They might let the teams use an 800bhp high pressure turbo engine in quali spec!

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Cars running ethanol do use more fuel, correct, but it is less poluting, is naturally replaced by growing crops, unlike petrol which WILL run out some day.

And I stand corrected but I am sure that Brazil run some of it's normal road cars on 100% ethanol, and allmost all of the cars in that country run some blend of ethanol. It can be done if some one wants to do it. But of course I can't see Shell or any of the oil companies interested.............................

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Cars running ethanol do use more fuel, correct, but it is less poluting, is naturally replaced by growing crops, unlike petrol which WILL run out some day.

And I stand corrected but I am sure that Brazil run some of it's normal road cars on 100% ethanol, and allmost all of the cars in that country run some blend of ethanol. It can be done if some one wants to do it. But of course I can't see Shell or any of the oil companies interested.............................

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think F1 needs to shift away from petrol, too. I just don't think Ethanol is what we need to turn to simply because the manufactures don't want to do it and the oil companies don't, either.

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Cars running ethanol do use more fuel, correct, but it is less poluting, is naturally replaced by growing crops, unlike petrol which WILL run out some day.

And I stand corrected but I am sure that Brazil run some of it's normal road cars on 100% ethanol, and allmost all of the cars in that country run some blend of ethanol. It can be done if some one wants to do it. But of course I can't see Shell or any of the oil companies interested.............................

Absolutely not true. Studies show that in total the use of Bio-fuels is just as bad for the environment as burning regular gasoline. Also, the fact is that the US would need to grow more than 4 times as much corn or wheat or whatever plan you want to use, as it currently does just to fill its fuel need. that would then also not leave any crop left for human and animal consumption. If you want to know more, here is an interesting article

The fact is hydrogen fuel cells are the only real way into the future for road cars. It's not like Hydrogen is scarce, and the only byproduct is water.

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Hi all, I don't usually pipe up that much but had a thought on this. If 1.5 turbo's are used, would it mean that the engines only last a race or two? Maybe someone knows how often the engines were changed back in the turbo days. If a smaller engine is worked that hard it would be my guess that it's not gonna last as long as the 2.4 naturally aspirated ones. Could either make the 8 engine per season limit unworkable, or much more of an engineering challenge than it is at the moment.

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I personally don't see the problem with the current engine specs tbh. They work, the cars still go very fast and they still make a loud noise. All you need from an F1 engine. Sure, they may not make as nice as noise as the V10s or whatever the heck the golden oldie fans always bang on about, but who cares? Maybe the current engines may not have any relevance to road cars that manufacturers produce now, but with teams wanting to reduce costs more than ever now, switching engine types would be a foolish move imo.

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but with teams wanting to reduce costs more than ever now, switching engine types would be a foolish move imo.

I'll let you in on a secret. It's a little theory called taking a short-term loss to make a long-term gain.

Now, I'm not saying a 1.5L turbo would be more cost-effective, but...there certainly can be a more cost-effective engine than what they have. Taking the initial hit to transition to that engine may be expensive, but for the money they'll save over the years of using the more affordable type of engine, it will end up being a good move for reducing costs.

Of course, the cost angle is really just one way to look at it. I don't think 2.4L V8s are going to make sense forever; eventually, the package will hurt the sport. Eventually, major companies aiming for a "green image" will choose not to join the sport (i.e. Michelin, bp/Castrol, etc). Eventually, auto manufactures looking to make progress for future cars will choose to leave or not join the sport.

You know why motor racing became popular? The cars (not the races or the drivers or the drivers' significant others) were exciting. Eventually, the 2.4L V8 will stop being exciting (it stopped exciting me a long time ago, personally, when I saw the diversity in sports car engines, such as the partially isobutanol-powered I-4 turbo that the Mazdas ran at Petit Le Mans). You have to look at the next generation of fans. There are always exceptions of course, such as people like yourself, but the majority of young people no longer care about performance in vehicles, which is why a lot of auto manufactures who do not put an emphasis on that are actually doing well now. Young people are looking at styling, efficiency, technology, and, as always, how all of that pertains to their image. When these young people are employed and spending money, are they going to care about a sport with petrol-powered 2.4L V8s? I imagine not. I think a lot of them, however, would be extra-engrossed if the cars featured innovative, green, and cost-effective technologies. In the old days, the more power or the larger your car was, the more interesting of a person you were. Now, the image has shifted to greener, innovative cars. Young people will identify with that now, and will continue to do so as adults. They'll want to see it in motor racing, or else they won't really care.

By no means am I suggesting the sport will have a massive collapse if they don't change, but they have to change sometime to keep up with the manufactures, sponsors, and fans. Now, the changes don't need to come in 2011, of course, but the FIA should be looking into future regulations over the next few years to be prepared for a shift.

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I find it quite amusing in a way that F1 wants to tap into a new brand of fans. The current casual, don't really follow the sport too deeply sort of fan. I know switching engine types wouldn't be for trying to interest new fans, but really, would those casual fans really care if they engine was an I-4 Turbo or whatever? Hmm, I'm not so sure.

Of course, there isn't as much innovation in the engine department as say sportscar racing, but you do have some interesting aspects of the racing such as the Ferrari clearly being a rapid car, but it's engine department seems quite unreliable at the moment, whilst in the likes of Mercedes and McLaren, whilst they aren't at the top in overall pace, they are getting purchase because the Mercedes engine are reliable and are widely regarded as the best, therefore meaning they often beat rivals like Ferrari and Red Bull.

Sure, that isn't "inovation" per se, but it sure is an interesting dimension to the sport.

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The problem isn't new casual fans; they can have those easily with pretty little drivers etc.

The problem is new hardcore fans. They will always need new, passionate fans of motor racing because there will always be old, passionate fans of motor racing who are not immortal. The problem is that tomorrow's hardcore fans don't want what today's do because, well, people change over time. The previous generation's cars were defined by different traits than our generation's will be, and therefore, F1 needs to work toward reflecting that. Radical change is not needed, and change isn't needed tomorrow, but the easiest thing to do would be to start a gradual progression to a new era for F1.

And fans aside, sponsors and manufactures, too, will begin to require a bit more. Starting now, at a slow pace, would be a good idea for F1, and a realistic one.

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