shields 0 Report post Posted May 4, 2010 Apart from anti-racing comments saying that Alonso was not fair... I noticed in my country a desperate tentative to incriminate Alonso in the so called "incident". For obvious reason, all the media is attacking Alonso, as if overtaking was something completely illegal, although they keep complaining F1 lacks overtaking... The only explanation is that I am in Brazil (and I am brazilian, btw...) That sounds to me as a desperate tentative to hide the increadible lack of racecraft from Massa, who was one of the very few drivers in the history of F1 to be overtaken by another driving a similar car (not more horsepower, or not much better machinary) in one of the most difficults overtaking points) I do understand the desperate chorus echoed by the brazilian media, but I just can say "I am deeply sorry, but it still is a RACE for God sake". The guys talk as if Massa was Schumacker in the years where a #1 contract was not something to be ashamed of, and a driver could be considered the best in history, even without having to compete... Terribly sorry... but it was a great move for those who do enjoy and understand racing in its pure spirit... That is all I can say... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted May 4, 2010 That is all you can say, and all that needs to be said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schumikonen 2 Report post Posted May 4, 2010 That is all you can say, and all that needs to be said. I guess this is the end of this thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted May 5, 2010 That sounds to me as a desperate tentative to hide the increadible lack of racecraft from Massa, who was one of the very few drivers in the history of F1 to be overtaken by another driving a similar car (not more horsepower, or not much better machinary) in one of the most difficults overtaking points) Eh? Are you saying that Massa is one of only a few drivers in the history of the sport who has been over taken by his team mate? On the subject of the pitlane entrance overtake (I'm assuming this is what you are talking about) it's all a big fuss about nothing. Everyone will tout is a the start of the end of Felipe and Fernando's working relationship but I rather think it is just genuine and honest competition. Any professional sports person who enters that sport taking all defeats a some sort of personal attack shouldn't be in the sport. Felipe will strike back and Fernando will counter strike. Isn't that what we want? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shields 0 Report post Posted May 5, 2010 Eh? Are you saying that Massa is one of only a few drivers in the history of the sport who has been over taken by his team mate? in the pits, yes. (That was what I meant by "one of the most difficult overtaking points") I would be ashamed if I were Massa... Remember, it is difficult to overtake in nowadays F1... Imagine in the pits... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schumikonen 2 Report post Posted May 5, 2010 in the pits, yes. (That was what I meant by "one of the most difficult overtaking points") I would be ashamed if I were Massa... Remember, it is difficult to overtake in nowadays F1... Imagine in the pits... Who said that was an ovetaking point? were you the only person who didn't notice that Alonso had to go out of the track to do that pass? the only blame Massa has is avoiding the sure collision that was coming as a result of that move, Massa should have kept his position even if both of then got out of the race, other than that there is nothing to blame Massa for, you are not even counting that Massa got into a puddle before going into that zone and becuase of that he had to slow down a bit giving Alonso the chance to challenge him for the position. in other word there is no sense in what your a saying about this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted May 5, 2010 Massa got his seat atFerrari because his manager is Todt's son. All else is ficion and wishful thinking. The hire done (for better or worse), Massa has wasted his Ferrari for years. Some wins but way too many goofups. His friendship with Schumacher might be cool (and political) for Massa but meant wasting Kimi... a much, much, much, much, much better racer than Massa. The Hamilton/Massa season was painful to watch. He was second best from a pair of two drivers that were constantly fckingup. Awful season, awful Masa. In sum, Massa is an average racer in a drive he never deserved. Alonso (the best racer in the field today) only overemphasises Massa's errors with bold and double underline. Massa's problems will solved when he has a drive that matches his skills, that is, midfield at best. For the record, this is a kind take on Massa. Plain soup would put Massa out of F1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted May 5, 2010 I guess this is the end of this thread. If only.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shields 0 Report post Posted May 5, 2010 Who said that was an ovetaking point? were you the only person who didn't notice that Alonso had to go out of the track to do that pass? According to ex-f1-driver Luciano Burti, who is now commentator in the brazilian TV, that part of the pit is considered track, unlike the white line in the exit of the pits... The broadcaster tried to suggest he should be punished, but this was promptly refuted by LB, who said that no punishment should be issued, cause he did not do anything illegal. Then the idiotic broadcaster started complaining that, although not punishable by the rules, it was not something nice and fair to do.... What a BS... Poor Massa... Thanks God there are still guys out there trying to overtake!!!! Thanks Alonso, Thanks Ham, and others... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schumikonen 2 Report post Posted May 6, 2010 According to ex-f1-driver Luciano Burti, who is now commentator in the brazilian TV, that part of the pit is considered track, unlike the white line in the exit of the pits... The broadcaster tried to suggest he should be punished, but this was promptly refuted by LB, who said that no punishment should be issued, cause he did not do anything illegal. Then the idiotic broadcaster started complaining that, although not punishable by the rules, it was not something nice and fair to do.... What a BS... Poor Massa... Thanks God there are still guys out there trying to overtake!!!! Thanks Alonso, Thanks Ham, and others... Have you realized that this doesn't answer my question? here goes the same question again: Who said that this point, where this move hapened was an overtaking point? please note that I am not talking about part of the track, there are tracks in F1 with almost no overtaking points, so I am still waiting for the answer Who authority in the matter named or declared that place as an overtaking point? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Argento Reloaded 1 Report post Posted May 6, 2010 Massa got his seat atFerrari because his manager is Todt's son. All else is ficion and wishful thinking. The hire done (for better or worse), Massa has wasted his Ferrari for years. Some wins but way too many goofups. His friendship with Schumacher might be cool (and political) for Massa but meant wasting Kimi... a much, much, much, much, much better racer than Massa. The Hamilton/Massa season was painful to watch. He was second best from a pair of two drivers that were constantly fckingup. Awful season, awful Masa. In sum, Massa is an average racer in a drive he never deserved. Alonso (the best racer in the field today) only overemphasises Massa's errors with bold and double underline. Massa's problems will solved when he has a drive that matches his skills, that is, midfield at best. For the record, this is a kind take on Massa. Plain soup would put Massa out of F1. I guess is not the only reason: for many years Brazilian market kept the FIAT group alive. FIAT is #1 in brazil and choosing brazilian racers is good marketing move. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted May 6, 2010 Massa got his seat atFerrari because his manager is Todt's son. All else is ficion and wishful thinking. The hire done (for better or worse), Massa has wasted his Ferrari for years. Some wins but way too many goofups. His friendship with Schumacher might be cool (and political) for Massa but meant wasting Kimi... a much, much, much, much, much better racer than Massa. The Hamilton/Massa season was painful to watch. He was second best from a pair of two drivers that were constantly fckingup. Awful season, awful Masa. In sum, Massa is an average racer in a drive he never deserved. Alonso (the best racer in the field today) only overemphasises Massa's errors with bold and double underline. Massa's problems will solved when he has a drive that matches his skills, that is, midfield at best. For the record, this is a kind take on Massa. Plain soup would put Massa out of F1. I'm not a fan but I think you are being a bit harsh on the lad. Massa has got his head down and taken a very hard work approach to his career, not being a natural. Personally I thought he had a gutsy 2008. Plus, I like him. He wears his heart on his sleeve and he seems to be a gentleman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pabloh20 1 Report post Posted May 6, 2010 Apart from anti-racing comments saying that Alonso was not fair... I noticed in my country a desperate tentative to incriminate Alonso in the so called "incident". For obvious reason, all the media is attacking Alonso, as if overtaking was something completely illegal, although they keep complaining F1 lacks overtaking... The only explanation is that I am in Brazil (and I am brazilian, btw...) That sounds to me as a desperate tentative to hide the increadible lack of racecraft from Massa, who was one of the very few drivers in the history of F1 to be overtaken by another driving a similar car (not more horsepower, or not much better machinary) in one of the most difficults overtaking points) I do understand the desperate chorus echoed by the brazilian media, but I just can say "I am deeply sorry, but it still is a RACE for God sake". The guys talk as if Massa was Schumacker in the years where a #1 contract was not something to be ashamed of, and a driver could be considered the best in history, even without having to compete... Terribly sorry... but it was a great move for those who do enjoy and understand racing in its pure spirit... That is all I can say... Hmmmm. There were 2 successful overtakes in front running cars of similar pace, which would suggest that maybe it wasn't such a difficult place to overtake? According to ex-f1-driver Luciano Burti, who is now commentator in the brazilian TV, that part of the pit is considered track, unlike the white line in the exit of the pits... The broadcaster tried to suggest he should be punished, but this was promptly refuted by LB, who said that no punishment should be issued, cause he did not do anything illegal. Then the idiotic broadcaster started complaining that, although not punishable by the rules, it was not something nice and fair to do.... What a BS... Poor Massa... Thanks God there are still guys out there trying to overtake!!!! Thanks Alonso, Thanks Ham, and others... Actually, the broadcaster is right. The track is defined as the area between the solid white lines and as such even the rumble strips are technically outside the 'track'. Obviously enforcing that particular rule would be draconian and I think it was Tommy who mentioned that there is a driver/Whiting/stewards guideline that 3 or more wheels crossing the white lines constitutes leaving the track. Vettel also got overtaken there and I wouldn't think he lacks racecraft or ability. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted May 6, 2010 I guess is not the only reason: for many years Brazilian market kept the FIAT group alive. FIAT is #1 in brazil and choosing brazilian racers is good marketing move. Interesting... even so, there are other Brazilian drivers around. Does Massa sell better than all else? I'm not a fan but I think you are being a bit harsh on the lad. Massa has got his head down and taken a very hard work approach to his career, not being a natural. Personally I thought he had a gutsy 2008. Plus, I like him. He wears his heart on his sleeve and he seems to be a gentleman. Rare thing... we completely disagree. The 2008 season was a sad, sad affair. Prove me wrong and please recall those races when Hamilton and Massa fought for anything at all on track... few if any (see what you can dig up). The truth is that Massa score a few points when Hamilton fcked up and viceversa. Gentleman? I remember him behaving in a manner not befitting a gentleman (on camera), but... I don't give a fck about his personality so... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yurp 0 Report post Posted May 6, 2010 Drivers in top cars who don't deserve them. Should be in a Williams, Sauber or something similar... Webber Massa (Schumi might get added to this list pretty soon - eek) Drivers in midfield cars who should be given a proper drive... Kubica Sutil (Petrov or Kobayashi might get promoted to this list depending on how they go over the next few races, but Kobay's car isn't anything to write home about - 4 DNF's so far ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shields 0 Report post Posted May 6, 2010 Actually, the broadcaster is right. The track is defined as the area between the solid white lines and as such even the rumble strips are technically outside the 'track'. Obviously enforcing that particular rule would be draconian and I think it was Tommy who mentioned that there is a driver/Whiting/stewards guideline that 3 or more wheels crossing the white lines constitutes leaving the track. You confused me. Is there a rule or not? Enforcing an existing rule is never draconian... Inventing rules to punish driver, like FIA did to LH in Spa2008 (or like Alonso for "disturbing the air 200m in front of a red car") is a draconian a manipulative action. If there was a rule about pit entrance, as there are for pit exit, than Alonso would be punished. But that was not the case... Vettel also got overtaken there and I wouldn't think he lacks racecraft or ability. Vettel was not overtaken, if I am not mistaken, LH was already in front of him, he just decided to enter the pits in the last split of second... Do you have the video? I think there were clear differences between the two "overtakings" (in the case you are right to call it "overtaking") Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pabloh20 1 Report post Posted May 6, 2010 You confused me. Is there a rule or not? Enforcing an existing rule is never draconian... Inventing rules to punish driver, like FIA did to LH in Spa2008 (or like Alonso for "disturbing the air 200m in front of a red car") is a draconian a manipulative action. If there was a rule about pit entrance, as there are for pit exit, than Alonso would be punished. But that was not the case... Vettel was not overtaken, if I am not mistaken, LH was already in front of him, he just decided to enter the pits in the last split of second... Do you have the video? I think there were clear differences between the two "overtakings" (in the case you are right to call it "overtaking") There is a rule, it doesn't get enforced. The track is defined as the area between the white lines, drivers are not supposed to leave it. If you want to see that rule enforced, be my guest. I would say it was a pretty similar incident. Regardless of whether Lewis was late into the pits or not, Vettel looked to be ahead into the pit lane entrance, just like Massa was. The coverage I have seen was inconclusive, unless you have anything better? If you do, it also might be worth checking Massa/Alonso's incident as Massa reckoned he hit some water or something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted May 7, 2010 Rare thing... we completely disagree. The 2008 season was a sad, sad affair. Prove me wrong and please recall those races when Hamilton and Massa fought for anything at all on track... few if any (see what you can dig up). The truth is that Massa score a few points when Hamilton fcked up and viceversa. Gentleman? I remember him behaving in a manner not befitting a gentleman (on camera), but... I don't give a fck about his personality so... A 'sad, sad affair' is again, in my opinion, a little harsh. Massa did better than Raikkonen. Yes, there was little, if no battling on track between the two title protagonists but this doesn't have to mean a dull fight. Say what you will, but Massa was there, fighting until the last corner of the season. That has to count for something. Can you remind me of the time you are referring to when Massa didn't behave like a gentleman? What I meant was that he bowed out of '08 with humility and maturity, I thought that was impressive and said a lot about his character. Also anyone who holds their countries flag aloft whilst crying or placing their hand on their heart on a podium has my vote too. It shows that they have heart and that it means something to them. Like you though, I'm not over concerned about driver personality, I prefer to see an idiot who can drive like demon, instead of a great guy who drives like a c*ck. Maybe Massa is somewhere ebbing and flowing in the middle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shields 0 Report post Posted May 7, 2010 when Massa didn't behave like a gentleman? When he purposedly crashed into LH in Japan... When he crashed into Alonso... and both showed how mature they were afterwards... What I meant was that he bowed out of '08 with humility and maturity, Hey, what else could he have done? In the end, he knew Ferrari made more mistakes than him, and no one would be pointing out at him and say "with one less mistake from you, you should have won the WDC..." Of course it is nicer to say that he does not blame the team and that is the easier part, as all the media were already blaming Ferrari for his loss... (even LDM was absolving him) His comments would be completely different if everyone were blaming him for the loss, he would try to find every excuse... (as he did some time ago when he said he went out because of a problem in the car, which was denied by Ferrari). Of course he would not repeat (trying to blame the car for his own mistakes) as he must have realised by now that it is worst marketing... I thought that was impressive and said a lot about his character. Also anyone who holds their countries flag aloft whilst crying or placing their hand on their heart on a podium has my vote too. That is not difficult, is it? Very few F1 have really good characters... For instance, Damon Hill. He never accused MS or never made a harsh comment about him, even knowing he's stolen one WDC from Damon with a dirty manouver... That is something .... Although, you would be right in saying that he did not need to say anything, cause the world could see by itself... But again, he never, in the following years, (as far as I know) made a bad comment about MS skill or character or anything... A real gentleman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tifosi too! 0 Report post Posted May 7, 2010 Apart from anti-racing comments saying that Alonso was not fair... I noticed in my country a desperate tentative to incriminate Alonso in the so called "incident". For obvious reason, all the media is attacking Alonso, as if overtaking was something completely illegal, although they keep complaining F1 lacks overtaking... The only explanation is that I am in Brazil (and I am brazilian, btw...) That sounds to me as a desperate tentative to hide the increadible lack of racecraft from Massa, who was one of the very few drivers in the history of F1 to be overtaken by another driving a similar car (not more horsepower, or not much better machinary) in one of the most difficults overtaking points) I do understand the desperate chorus echoed by the brazilian media, but I just can say "I am deeply sorry, but it still is a RACE for God sake". The guys talk as if Massa was Schumacker in the years where a #1 contract was not something to be ashamed of, and a driver could be considered the best in history, even without having to compete... Terribly sorry... but it was a great move for those who do enjoy and understand racing in its pure spirit... That is all I can say... Someone is jealous of a successful and famous Brazilian F1 driver... Oh look it's another Brazilian! I bet you are absolutely certain it should have been you in the Ferrari. (I happen to think the same, but what can you do..). GET OVER IT!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted May 7, 2010 Massa has been driving right at the ragged edge of his talent so far this season. He's been scrabbling and scraping for every inch of tarmac just to stay ahead of Fernando. Kudos to him for that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LabradoRacer 2 Report post Posted May 8, 2010 I'm not a fan but I think you are being a bit harsh on the lad. Massa has got his head down and taken a very hard work approach to his career, not being a natural. Personally I thought he had a gutsy 2008. Plus, I like him. He wears his heart on his sleeve and he seems to be a gentleman. +1. That he's an honest trier and tries to be the best he can is most likeable about him. I really hope he wipes the floor with Alonso. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LabradoRacer 2 Report post Posted May 8, 2010 Massa has been driving right at the ragged edge of his talent so far this season. He's been scrabbling and scraping for every inch of tarmac just to stay ahead of Fernando. Kudos to him for that. +1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted May 8, 2010 When he purposedly crashed into LH in Japan... When he crashed into Alonso... and both showed how mature they were afterwards... Hey, what else could he have done? In the end, he knew Ferrari made more mistakes than him, and no one would be pointing out at him and say "with one less mistake from you, you should have won the WDC..." Of course it is nicer to say that he does not blame the team and that is the easier part, as all the media were already blaming Ferrari for his loss... (even LDM was absolving him) His comments would be completely different if everyone were blaming him for the loss, he would try to find every excuse... (as he did some time ago when he said he went out because of a problem in the car, which was denied by Ferrari). Of course he would not repeat (trying to blame the car for his own mistakes) as he must have realised by now that it is worst marketing... That is not difficult, is it? Very few F1 have really good characters... For instance, Damon Hill. He never accused MS or never made a harsh comment about him, even knowing he's stolen one WDC from Damon with a dirty manouver... That is something .... Although, you would be right in saying that he did not need to say anything, cause the world could see by itself... But again, he never, in the following years, (as far as I know) made a bad comment about MS skill or character or anything... A real gentleman Apart from the fact that I was looking for a response from maure and not you, I find many of your posts antagonistic. You seem to revel in disagreeing purely for the sake of it. You then throw a little bit more 'Schumacher slapping' in, just for good measure. If I haven't demonstrated already that I'm open minded, as far as Michael goes, then please continue with your crusade. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krasch27 0 Report post Posted May 9, 2010 Very few F1 have really good characters... For instance, Damon Hill. He never accused MS or never made a harsh comment about him, even knowing he's stolen one WDC from Damon with a dirty manouver... That is something .... Although, you would be right in saying that he did not need to say anything, cause the world could see by itself... But again, he never, in the following years, (as far as I know ) made a bad comment about MS skill or character or anything... A real gentleman Sheilds, im afraid you dont know.. the 1994 WDC was not stolen from Hill- Hill's(which should have been Senna's-R.I.P) Williams was regarded as the most competitive car in the field that year. Most neutral, unbiased F1 fans would remember Hill whinging about what he described as preferential treatment given to Schumi by the FIA ,and through the season,he often made snide remarks about Schumi's nationality and personality. Schumi was disqualified for 2 races,excluded from another 2 races and still BEAT HILL FAIR'N'SQUARE .. In the season finale in Australia, Schumi simply did what ANYONE WITH AN UNDERSTANDING OF COMPETITiVE MOTORSPORT would have done... All Hill had to do to seal victory was keep his head on for another 20 metres out of that chicane and he would have easily passed Schumi. If you want to talk 'dirty manouveres', then watch Hill's antics on the roll up lap at the 1994 British GP.... Maybe you should stop believing tabloids and media before you make silly statements and look at facts and watch races to understand what motor racing is really about. As for your comments on Massa... Im not even going to credit that dribble with a reply..Maybe you should go and watch some NASCAR. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
