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cavallino

Does Alonso Always Crack Under Pressure?

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I like that people are questioning this absurd rule. It conflicts with other established rules for no good reason.

The issue isn't whether or not the rule was interpreted correctly, it's if the rule should be there at all.

This is really the most important point. Since the rule can obviously be interpreted either way, there's not much use in people carrying on this whole debate because it is an interpretation. That's why Mercedes haven't appealed, you can't appeal an interpretation.

Sorry guys, just read the DOD Monaco thread, and Mike had the same question, in answer to a different point...

"I respect your view here, but the part in bold I can't really believe you meant as you'd typed it. Making a pass for position is at the heart of racing and to say otherwise sounds...odd, to say the least. If you meant that it wasn't racing because Mikey took Alonso unawares, then that conflicts with Alonso trying like hell to prevent the pass. Why try that hard to prevent something that Alonso and Ferrari supposedly knew to be illegal?"

From the other thread, with love:

http://www.totalf1.c...post__p__317520

In short: just because Alonso made a mistake, doesn't necessarily mean he was racing (defending/attacking). Making mistakes and not racing are able to both be true at the same time, in fact a mistake is probably more likely on cold tyres, brakes, whatever.

Again, I am not claiming to know, Alonso may have been racing. Either way, this debate here is not about the quality of the pass it is about the validity of it (Alonso's intentions are completely irrelevant to the latter even if central to the former).

I like it better too - but it doesn't work if the crash occurs between the safety car line and the finish line - then you'd need another set of rules to make allowance for that possibility too. Thus making things more rather than less complicated.

I'm with you in spirit though - I'm just a stickler for having 1 simple rule that leaves no room for misunderstanding and covers all eventuaities.

Anywho - this is getting split into 2 threads now - perhaps discussing it in the hahahaha thread is more sensible - we're repeating ourselves.

EDIT - plus - I really think that thread's too short. :D

The more complicated something is, the harder it is to make rules to govern it. And F1 is very complicated these days. That is why it is a tough job to make rules that aren't open to interpretation, if even Governments struggle to make effective laws, with all their resources and supposed know-how, then we can't be too harsh on the FIA when they mess it up.

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Thanks for that Tommy. So Gary Anderson in Autosport and Pat Symonds in F1 Racing both agree with Ross Brawn's interpretation. That's interesting and I'll go read those articles today. I still think that interpretation is the most sensible one given the wording of the rules.

Gary Anderson, everyone in the autosport editorial staff, James Allen, all the commentators, in fact this is the only place in the world where people believe that the sensible interpretation of the rules is the one that requires the drivers ignore green flags. Which is why suspect people like Andres are just trying to get a rise out of others.

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Gary Anderson, everyone in the autosport editorial staff, James Allen, all the commentators, in fact this is the only place in the world where people believe that the sensible interpretation of the rules is the one that requires the drivers ignore green flags. Which is why suspect people like Andres are just trying to get a rise out of others.

I like what you did there, but you're not getting away with it. Stop using the opinions of others as some sort of defence. Also, I have never said that my interpretation of the rule is one that requires drivers to ignore green flags. My opinion requires them to ignore the issue of the green flags.

Imagine you are serving a prison sentence. One day you see that someone has left the prison gates open. You know that your sentence dictates that you must stay in the prison. Do you walk out or do you stay and serve your sentence. You could argue that as the gates were open, it was clear that you were allowed out. But the fact the gates were open hasnothing to do with the rules of your sentence.

I'm going to persist with annoying analogies until you agree with one.

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Oh **** this is nauseating. Cav, I explained myself a million times. I tried with all my patience to explain the same simple subject again and again and again. Unlike you I actually read and try to understand why you have a different stance on all this. I try to get into your head and see why you thought that lights are more important than rules. That is why people like me, George and Alex admitted since the beginning that the rules were unclear, that is why we thought at first that Schumi's pass was actually a good move.

I won't go into explaining all this again. Go and read your own ****ing thread. Go and basque in your own ****ing pitiful self arrogance. Give me again your whiney, 5-years-old-pram-toy-throwing, "but..but...but...give me some proof! I have Jordan's Gary Anderson and the whole Autosport and Barack Obama's full support on this!"

**** it. I have FIA, every single team except Mercedes and Damon Hill to back me up and guess what? These are the guys that matter. Wanna bring a conspiracy theory now? You know: Jeand Todt hates Schumi and Brawn so he did all this just to annoy Schumi and you and benefit Alonso and me, that sort of thing. Is this the idiotic level of argument you want to drag all this? Is it so important for you to have Schumi on 6th place because of an illegal move so you can be proud of...what again? Damn, you are one sore loser.

Want to have me p**sed off. Here, have a go at it. Call me intellectualy dishonest one more time. Go ahead. Then give up with your petty insults and snide comments. Try to reason with me. You can't. All our comments about you being brilliant might have made you think you are better than us. Well you sure are not better than me. Sorry. The dream is over.

But I'm fed up with all this so keep the forum and do whatever you want with it. I already let the other guys alone in their lovely GW thread to discuss within them and find they got an empty victory. I thought they would quit. They still keep monologuing and thinking they are the best.

Take the whole forum to yourself and think you are the best. You earned it.

Then blow me. This isn't fun anymore.

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I agree with the Gorilla.

---------------

Cav, you need to read the thread again. We've already covered the green flags issue ad nauseam.

The interpretation the stewards made was sensible, not because it was the one which "requires the drivers ignore green flags" (that's the stupid part) - but because you can't allow one driver to pass another when there is a rule which says you can't pass. That doesn't mean the harshness of the penalty was fair, or that the green flags waving was very clever, or that Schumi's pass was crap, or that Alonso was racing and therefore a pass is okay, or anything else. It is just the rule, however flawed the rule was. Now the FIA will re-write the rule to avoid such a controversy happening again, move on pal, I guarantee Schumacher already has.

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Oh **** this is nauseating. Cav, I explained myself a million times. I tried with all my patience to explain the same simple subject again and again and again. Unlike you I actually read and try to understand why you have a different stance on all this. I try to get into your head and see why you thought that lights are more important than rules. That is why people like me, George and Alex admitted since the beginning that the rules were unclear, that is why we thought at first that Schumi's pass was actually a good move.

I won't go into explaining all this again. Go and read your own ****ing thread. Go and basque in your own ****ing pitiful self arrogance. Give me again your whiney, 5-years-old-pram-toy-throwing, "but..but...but...give me some proof! I have Jordan's Gary Anderson and the whole Autosport and Barack Obama's full support on this!"

**** it. I have FIA, every single team except Mercedes and Damon Hill to back me up and guess what? These are the guys that matter. Wanna bring a conspiracy theory now? You know: Jeand Todt hates Schumi and Brawn so he did all this just to annoy Schumi and you and benefit Alonso and me, that sort of thing. Is this the idiotic level of argument you want to drag all this? Is it so important for you to have Schumi on 6th place because of an illegal move so you can be proud of...what again? Damn, you are one sore loser.

Want to have me p**sed off. Here, have a go at it. Call me intellectualy dishonest one more time. Go ahead. Then give up with your petty insults and snide comments. Try to reason with me. You can't. All our comments about you being brilliant might have made you think you are better than us. Well you sure are not better than me. Sorry. The dream is over.

But I'm fed up with all this so keep the forum and do whatever you want with it. I already let the other guys alone in their lovely GW thread to discuss within them and find they got an empty victory. I thought they would quit. They still keep monologuing and thinking they are the best.

Take the whole forum to yourself and think you are the best. You earned it.

Then blow me. This isn't fun anymore.

Andres Baby...cool down.... :coolio:

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Talking about this bullsh!t is how we sow the seeds of change. Revolutions have started from simple talk.

:thbup:

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Oh **** this is nauseating. Cav, I explained myself a million times. I tried with all my patience to explain the same simple subject again and again and again. Unlike you I actually read and try to understand why you have a different stance on all this. I try to get into your head and see why you thought that lights are more important than rules. That is why people like me, George and Alex admitted since the beginning that the rules were unclear, that is why we thought at first that Schumi's pass was actually a good move.

I won't go into explaining all this again. Go and read your own ****ing thread. Go and basque in your own ****ing pitiful self arrogance. Give me again your whiney, 5-years-old-pram-toy-throwing, "but..but...but...give me some proof! I have Jordan's Gary Anderson and the whole Autosport and Barack Obama's full support on this!"

**** it. I have FIA, every single team except Mercedes and Damon Hill to back me up and guess what? These are the guys that matter. Wanna bring a conspiracy theory now? You know: Jeand Todt hates Schumi and Brawn so he did all this just to annoy Schumi and you and benefit Alonso and me, that sort of thing. Is this the idiotic level of argument you want to drag all this? Is it so important for you to have Schumi on 6th place because of an illegal move so you can be proud of...what again? Damn, you are one sore loser.

Want to have me p**sed off. Here, have a go at it. Call me intellectualy dishonest one more time. Go ahead. Then give up with your petty insults and snide comments. Try to reason with me. You can't. All our comments about you being brilliant might have made you think you are better than us. Well you sure are not better than me. Sorry. The dream is over.

But I'm fed up with all this so keep the forum and do whatever you want with it. I already let the other guys alone in their lovely GW thread to discuss within them and find they got an empty victory. I thought they would quit. They still keep monologuing and thinking they are the best.

Take the whole forum to yourself and think you are the best. You earned it.

Then blow me. This isn't fun anymore.

Wow. I haven't seen you this annoyed since I put brick dust in the vaseline jar........errmmm........I mean since I found out that somebody else had put brick dust in the vaseline jar. What a lousy trick that was.

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I like it better too - but it doesn't work if the crash occurs between the safety car line and the finish line - then you'd need another set of rules to make allowance for that possibility too. Thus making things more rather than less complicated.

I'm with you in spirit though - I'm just a stickler for having 1 simple rule that leaves no room for misunderstanding and covers all eventuaities.

Anywho - this is getting split into 2 threads now - perhaps discussing it in the hahahaha thread is more sensible - we're repeating ourselves.

EDIT - plus - I really think that thread's too short. :D

I hear you. Unfortunately I think yellow flags and safety cars need to be judged per incident. The flags should be THE final word on track condition and if there was a green flag incorrectly thrown during a race, then any driver reacting to that flag should face a mitigated penalty. The SC should always accompany a yellow flag and never be on-track during a green flag. Your hypothetical would call for a different result with the SC, but whatever the result, the flags at the track should reign supreme.

I think Schumacher's penalty was too harsh. The rule in question conflicted, on the surface and during the heat of a race, with the status of the track at the time. Many people knowledgeable in the sport thought the move was a good one. That it broke an obscure, little-used rule is without question, but it was clearly unintentional. Brawn and Mikey honestly thought they were good to race. A penalty more suitable would be to demote Mikey back to behind Alonso and give him a fine...like Webber got for speeding in the pitlane. Webber got that fine in lieu of the more traditional stop-and-go and that infraction was against a well-known rule.

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Oh **** this is nauseating. Cav, I explained myself a million times. I tried with all my patience to explain the same simple subject again and again and again. Unlike you I actually read and try to understand why you have a different stance on all this. I try to get into your head and see why you thought that lights are more important than rules. That is why people like me, George and Alex admitted since the beginning that the rules were unclear, that is why we thought at first that Schumi's pass was actually a good move.

I won't go into explaining all this again. Go and read your own ****ing thread. Go and basque in your own ****ing pitiful self arrogance. Give me again your whiney, 5-years-old-pram-toy-throwing, "but..but...but...give me some proof! I have Jordan's Gary Anderson and the whole Autosport and Barack Obama's full support on this!"

**** it. I have FIA, every single team except Mercedes and Damon Hill to back me up and guess what? These are the guys that matter. Wanna bring a conspiracy theory now? You know: Jeand Todt hates Schumi and Brawn so he did all this just to annoy Schumi and you and benefit Alonso and me, that sort of thing. Is this the idiotic level of argument you want to drag all this? Is it so important for you to have Schumi on 6th place because of an illegal move so you can be proud of...what again? Damn, you are one sore loser.

Want to have me p**sed off. Here, have a go at it. Call me intellectualy dishonest one more time. Go ahead. Then give up with your petty insults and snide comments. Try to reason with me. You can't. All our comments about you being brilliant might have made you think you are better than us. Well you sure are not better than me. Sorry. The dream is over.

But I'm fed up with all this so keep the forum and do whatever you want with it. I already let the other guys alone in their lovely GW thread to discuss within them and find they got an empty victory. I thought they would quit. They still keep monologuing and thinking they are the best.

Take the whole forum to yourself and think you are the best. You earned it.

Then blow me. This isn't fun anymore.

Ok if you are going to react like this I will say to the world that Alonso didn't jump the start I will say that he have never done it in his whole life as a F1 racer, I didn't know you were so touchy about the jump start so from now on I won't talk about the jump start any more unless you say something about it. :P

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I hear you. Unfortunately I think yellow flags and safety cars need to be judged per incident. The flags should be THE final word on track condition and if there was a green flag incorrectly thrown during a race, then any driver reacting to that flag should face a mitigated penalty. The SC should always accompany a yellow flag and never be on-track during a green flag. Your hypothetical would call for a different result with the SC, but whatever the result, the flags at the track should reign supreme.

I think Schumacher's penalty was too harsh. The rule in question conflicted, on the surface and during the heat of a race, with the status of the track at the time. Many people knowledgeable in the sport thought the move was a good one. That it broke an obscure, little-used rule is without question, but it was clearly unintentional. Brawn and Mikey honestly thought they were good to race. A penalty more suitable would be to demote Mikey back to behind Alonso and give him a fine...like Webber got for speeding in the pitlane. Webber got that fine in lieu of the more traditional stop-and-go and that infraction was against a well-known rule.

:clap3: Actually this have been the only case in any motorsport seies that I have seen a driver being penalized by overtaking under green flags.

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Oh **** this is nauseating. Cav, I explained myself a million times. I tried with all my patience to explain the same simple subject again and again and again. Unlike you I actually read and try to understand why you have a different stance on all this. I try to get into your head and see why you thought that lights are more important than rules. That is why people like me, George and Alex admitted since the beginning that the rules were unclear, that is why we thought at first that Schumi's pass was actually a good move.

I won't go into explaining all this again. Go and read your own ****ing thread. Go and basque in your own ****ing pitiful self arrogance. Give me again your whiney, 5-years-old-pram-toy-throwing, "but..but...but...give me some proof! I have Jordan's Gary Anderson and the whole Autosport and Barack Obama's full support on this!"

**** it. I have FIA, every single team except Mercedes and Damon Hill to back me up and guess what? These are the guys that matter. Wanna bring a conspiracy theory now? You know: Jeand Todt hates Schumi and Brawn so he did all this just to annoy Schumi and you and benefit Alonso and me, that sort of thing. Is this the idiotic level of argument you want to drag all this? Is it so important for you to have Schumi on 6th place because of an illegal move so you can be proud of...what again? Damn, you are one sore loser.

Want to have me p**sed off. Here, have a go at it. Call me intellectualy dishonest one more time. Go ahead. Then give up with your petty insults and snide comments. Try to reason with me. You can't. All our comments about you being brilliant might have made you think you are better than us. Well you sure are not better than me. Sorry. The dream is over.

But I'm fed up with all this so keep the forum and do whatever you want with it. I already let the other guys alone in their lovely GW thread to discuss within them and find they got an empty victory. I thought they would quit. They still keep monologuing and thinking they are the best.

Take the whole forum to yourself and think you are the best. You earned it.

Then blow me. This isn't fun anymore.

There's no point in reasoning. Not when your posts get twisted against you.

Now we'll have the obligatory whine, the prophecies, the personal attack accusations and finally the I don't cares.

Call it a witch hunt, say whatever you like. Ban me. But know that it takes intelligence to be clever. If you're going to twist somebody's words, have the decency to do it properly. Agreed?

Whoops. But what do I know? I'm just a dumb bitch.

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After read the whole topic i understood what happened when MSC hit Monty many years ago: it was a rehersal to pass Nando in 2010! Ok I proved worng MSC is a demigood second to none... but with many points less than Nico...

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Also, I have never said that my interpretation of the rule is one that requires drivers to ignore green flags. My opinion requires them to ignore the issue of the green flags.

Huh what does this make any sense to you? It makes no sense to me.

Imagine you are serving a prison sentence. One day you see that someone has left the prison gates open. You know that your sentence dictates that you must stay in the prison. Do you walk out or do you stay and serve your sentence. You could argue that as the gates were open, it was clear that you were allowed out. But the fact the gates were open hasnothing to do with the rules of your sentence.

That's a bad analogy too, I would rather discuss the issue than try to explain why each of your analogies is bad.

Unlike you I actually read and try to understand why you have a different stance on all this

That's presumptuous of you I tried many many times, and it still makes no bloody sense.

Remember, the normal way things work is something controversial happens, almost everyone on the forum disagrees with me, I quote some obscure precedent or rule to try and argue otherwise, the FIA makes a decision favouring Schumacher, everyone in the F1 media disagrees with the FIA there is almost unversal condemnation etc etc.

This is the complete opposite, given the signals and messages given, Brawn/Schumacher go with the ONLY reasonable interpretation of the rules possible and still they get punished. It is like you drive up to a junction, the light turns green, the junction is clear, you follow the light and move. You get fined, with a message saying 'we know the light was green, we know that you didn't do anything dangerous, but we had a software malfunction and the light should have been red, so here's your fine and license suspension. That's f**king ridiculous, because it implies the next time you drive up to a traffic light that is green, are expected

to second guess it. Any court of law will rule in your favour and cancel the fine and suspension, anything else would jsut be a ridiculous precedent.

I can't imagine how anyone can honestly argue otherwise..

My post only took your name which got you angry, I am sorry about that- I wasn't targeting, I meant you, dribs and many others who I feel are reasonable people but your opinions in this case absolutely baffle me.

I have FIA, every single team except Mercedes and Damon Hill to back me up and guess what?

Really? The FIA? The FIA just acted unsurprisingly like a bloody bureaucrat whose own inconsistency and screw up caused everything - see my analogy above. The other teams - I have only seen comments from Ferrari, but I'll accept it - maybe the others said something I haven't read about, but really, what do you expect the other teams to say??

Take the whole forum to yourself and think you are the best. You earned it.

Hey you can abuse me and have the inner circle stand up for you, you have it pretty good here, I am the one who needs a break..

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Remember, the normal way things work is something controversial happens, almost everyone on the forum disagrees with me, I quote some obscure precedent or rule to try and argue otherwise, the FIA makes a decision favouring Schumacher, everyone in the F1 media disagrees with the FIA there is almost unversal condemnation etc etc.

This is the complete opposite, given the signals and messages given, Brawn/Schumacher go with the ONLY reasonable interpretation of the rules possible and still they get punished. It is like you drive up to a junction, the light turns green, the junction is clear, you follow the light and move. You get fined, with a message saying 'we know the light was green, we know that you didn't do anything dangerous, but we had a software malfunction and the light should have been red, so here's your fine and license suspension. That's f**king ridiculous, because it implies the next time you drive up to a traffic light that is green, are expected

to second guess it. Any court of law will rule in your favour and cancel the fine and suspension, anything else would jsut be a ridiculous precedent.

I can't imagine how anyone can honestly argue otherwise..

Me neither I just post it somewhere, I can't really understand why they still think like that :eusa_think:

Really? The FIA? The FIA just acted unsurprisingly like a bloody bureaucrat whose own inconsistency and screw up caused everything - see my analogy above. The other teams - I have only seen comments from Ferrari, but I'll accept it - maybe the others said something I haven't read about, but really, what do you expect the other teams to say??

I haven't seen that eather but given the fact that all of them except Red Bull will get a direct benefit I guess they will support the stewards in this case.

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... I am the one who needs a break..

So amusing... the liar, blacklister, insulting and all-around contradiction muppet is about to burst into tears.

Give _us_ a break.

Although... you have been kind of apologetic of late, down on yourself, and as meek as you can get. Hmmm... are you doing ok private-wise? Send me a PM if you need an outlet.

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I hear you. Unfortunately I think yellow flags and safety cars need to be judged per incident.

Fine - but how about we have 1 rule rather than 3 and clear cut no brainers for the marshalls.

rememebr what I'm suggesting - my rules:

a ) there will be no overtaking until after start/finish line when SC comes in - yellow flags indicate this (as 2009)

b ) if there is debris on anywhere on track that requires a SC to navigate, the SC will stay out

This applies to a crash anywhere and on any lap.

good results

1 ) easily understood, massively simplified, unambiguous rules.

2 ) rules that fit every eventuality (a crash anywhere and on any lap).

3 ) flags match SC and on track condition - yellow = don't pass, green = go for it.

4 ) drivers with broken radios could completely understand what's going on from the flags.

"bad" results

5 ) a very occasional finish behind the SC (about once a season) - I can live with this.

This makes no difference anyway - they can't overtake if it's the last lap (2009 and 2010 rules) - if there's a SC leading them over the line - big deal.

The flags should be THE final word on track condition and if there was a green flag incorrectly thrown during a race, then any driver reacting to that flag should face a mitigated penalty. The SC should always accompany a yellow flag and never be on-track during a green flag.

Agreed - with my suggested system there is no ambiguity and the flags are the simpliest possible - same flags as 2009 actually.

Your hypothetical would call for a different result with the SC, but whatever the result, the flags at the track should reign supreme.

My hypothetical only calls for a different outcome when using current rules or reverting just to 2009 rules. With my suggested system there is no ambiguity and no different outcome. It's easy for everyone to understand, it makes sense and the flags do reign supreme.

I think Schumacher's penalty was too harsh. The rule in question conflicted, on the surface and during the heat of a race, with the status of the track at the time. Many people knowledgeable in the sport thought the move was a good one. That it broke an obscure, little-used rule is without question, but it was clearly unintentional. Brawn and Mikey honestly thought they were good to race. A penalty more suitable would be to demote Mikey back to behind Alonso and give him a fine...like Webber got for speeding in the pitlane. Webber got that fine in lieu of the more traditional stop-and-go and that infraction was against a well-known rule.

We agreed on all this a week ago. It's not what I'm discussing.

What I'm trying to do is move the discussion onto a more productive front - ie. how the rules could be rewritten to make sense and clear up the confussion we saw at Monaco.

So far, I've outlined my simplified rules above and in the hahahah thread.

I've turned 3 very badly written, contradictory and condition-filled rules (as they stand now), into 2 simple, catch-all sentences.

Simplification is what I'm after here.

Perhaps we could move on by you writing your own suggested rules as I have - clearly and concisely. Then we'd have 2 options to discuss.

Or perhaps you could offer another hypothetical situation under which my rules wouldn't work and so would need to be modified.

To me - this is the kind of dicussion the FIA should be having before changing the rules.

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Huh what does this make any sense to you? It makes no sense to me.

I am merely saying that the interpretation of the rule should have nothing to do with the green lights because they are irrelevant in the context of understanding the rule.

That's a bad analogy too, I would rather discuss the issue than try to explain why each of your analogies is bad.

Okay, fine. Then let me explain below why your analogy is bad........

This is the complete opposite, given the signals and messages given, Brawn/Schumacher go with the ONLY reasonable interpretation of the rules possible and still they get punished. It is like you drive up to a junction, the light turns green, the junction is clear, you follow the light and move. You get fined, with a message saying 'we know the light was green, we know that you didn't do anything dangerous, but we had a software malfunction and the light should have been red, so here's your fine and license suspension. That's f**king ridiculous, because it implies the next time you drive up to a traffic light that is green, are expected

to second guess it. Any court of law will rule in your favour and cancel the fine and suspension, anything else would jsut be a ridiculous precedent.

I can't imagine how anyone can honestly argue otherwise..

This is where your analogy falls down. Drivers who know the rules don't have to second guess anything. They know that they should obey the rules. The rule says no overtaking. The lights mean nothing when you understand and apply the rule.

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Drivers who know the rules don't have to second guess anything. They know that they should obey the rules. The rule says no overtaking. The lights mean nothing when you understand and apply the rule.

When the track officials (who are supposed to know the rule book inside out) themselves didn't know the rule, surely Schu deserved some slack? I find it difficult to believe that a driver has to know by heart the yawn-inducing-written-in-dry-legalese rule book.

I read a BBC article where it said that 3 of the top 6 drivers were asked to race. Perhaps it's not wrong to say that Schu made a mistake which had FIA's on-track approval.

And, aren't the track officials also supposed to be penalised? I mean, if Schu was penalised for breaking 40.13 (on grounds of safety, I presume?), shouldn't the track officials too be penalised for being cavalier with safety?

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Fine - but how about we have 1 rule rather than 3 and clear cut no brainers for the marshalls.

rememebr what I'm suggesting - my rules:

a ) there will be no overtaking until after start/finish line when SC comes in - yellow flags indicate this (as 2009)

b ) if there is debris on anywhere on track that requires a SC to navigate, the SC will stay out

This applies to a crash anywhere and on any lap.

good results

1 ) easily understood, massively simplified, unambiguous rules.

2 ) rules that fit every eventuality (a crash anywhere and on any lap).

3 ) flags match SC and on track condition - yellow = don't pass, green = go for it.

4 ) drivers with broken radios could completely understand what's going on from the flags.

"bad" results

5 ) a very occasional finish behind the SC (about once a season) - I can live with this.

This makes no difference anyway - they can't overtake if it's the last lap (2009 and 2010 rules) - if there's a SC leading them over the line - big deal.

Agreed - with my suggested system there is no ambiguity and the flags are the simpliest possible - same flags as 2009 actually.

My hypothetical only calls for a different outcome when using current rules or reverting just to 2009 rules. With my suggested system there is no ambiguity and no different outcome. It's easy for everyone to understand, it makes sense and the flags do reign supreme.

We agreed on all this a week ago. It's not what I'm discussing.

What I'm trying to do is move the discussion onto a more productive front - ie. how the rules could be rewritten to make sense and clear up the confussion we saw at Monaco.

So far, I've outlined my simplified rules above and in the hahahah thread.

I've turned 3 very badly written, contradictory and condition-filled rules (as they stand now), into 2 simple, catch-all sentences.

Simplification is what I'm after here.

Perhaps we could move on by you writing your own suggested rules as I have - clearly and concisely. Then we'd have 2 options to discuss.

Or perhaps you could offer another hypothetical situation under which my rules wouldn't work and so would need to be modified.

To me - this is the kind of dicussion the FIA should be having before changing the rules.

Gotcha. Sounds reasonable and workable. I'd sign onto it.

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Gotcha. Sounds reasonable and workable. I'd sign onto it.

excellent - now we've just got to convince the FIA. :D

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