Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahah

[Ikyrotz 0]

40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.

At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.

In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.

As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

If all those conditions were met properly before the SC entered the pit-lane on the last lap then things could be different.

Are you saying all those conditions were not met? To me it appears they were. I certainly saw the orange lights go off, and while I didn't follow the timing monitors, I hear they got the "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" message. Green flags and lights were also shown.

EDIT: didn't see your latest post before answering, sorry.

[pumpdoc 2]

The ruling by the stewards means from now on "don't pay the flags or lights as the case may any mind", green is good to go racing in any language in any series, end of.

[Rainmaster 7]

The ruling by the stewards means from now on "don't pay the flags or lights as the case may any mind", green is good to go racing in any language in any series, end of.

Yeah that's definitely the source of confusion and the FIA need to clarify it. They need to answer the questions:

Was it a safety car finish? If yes, does that mean green flags are waved but overtaking is still illegal?

Or was it a safety car finish and green flags were waved incorrectly? (as common sense would suggest).

Or it wasn't a safety car finish at all and the ruling is wrong on both counts?

[AleHop 0]

Schumacher got a post-race drive-through penalty and you cannot appeal drive throughs, right? Still the FIA say "the appeal is strictly against the decision, not the penalty itself as drive-throughs cannot be appealed" but the decision is a drive-through penalty which you can't appeal. Ha, ha, ha... I think Schumacher deserves the points but two wrongs don't do a right. The FIA should take the heat instead of bending the rules.

This is how stupidly the FIA work, having their own rules and interpreting it like the great Groucho Marx in A Night at the Operah.

[pumpdoc 2]

IF the green lights were improperly displayed then Charlie W. deserves a trip to the "woodshed".

[Max Mosley 2]

Fcking hell, your English is worse than mine. WTF you mean?

Sorry - judging from your later posts, I think you already see what I meant. And btw I wasn't talking about you when I mentioned 'normal English speakers' before. I just meant people like me as opposed to lawyers.

Okay, I'll try to explain again, I agree with Ale though but I will explain some things in a more long-winded fashion!

Firsly, yes, there are different rules surrounding the Safety car deployment. I think the relevant one here is 40.13 and it seems that this rule would supersede any other safety car rule because it applies to the SC finish specifically (i.e. when a race comes to an end under a safety car). As Alehop says, if you have a bunch of rules regarding something, but a specific rule for a specific situation then that particular rule is what needs to be looked at and interpreted. That is the first thing that people must accept, in this case the rule states no overtaking in a particular situation despite the fact you can usually do so after the first safety car line. That situation which is different is when a race finishes under a safety car.

So the question becomes, did the race end under the safety car so that this is the right rule to look at and apply?

Obviously, there is a reason that a SC finish rule exists, because in some situations races will "end" under a SC and, for whatever reason, the powers that be don't want racing on the last blast to the finish line.

The rule states "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking".

From my interpretation, this rule is clear enough and indicates the definition of a safety car finish to a Grand Prix. It is determined by the SC being out on the last lap, and that it will always enter the pits on the last lap. If there is another set of rules which discusses a safety car finish, then they would be useful but I don't know of any other rules about that. So considering that, this rule seems to be our only source of information on what a SC finish is.

From that, we can take two positions. 1) This rule only talks about overtaking being forbidden under a safety car finish but doesn't actually explain what constitutes a SC finish, or 2) This rule defines a Safety car finish as the SC pitting at the "end" of the last lap (more on that later).

It seems the most reasonable approach is to accept that the FIA aren't going to make a rule (no overtaking) but not actually say when it applies by not defining a SC finish. Furthermore it doesn't seem a strange definition of a SC finish to me, i.e. a SC finish is when the SC is out on the last lap, basically. Makes sense, right?

The idea that it "might have been coming in that lap anyway" is something I struggle with. I think it's irrelevant, if the safety car is out on the last lap then surely it's clear that the race is ending under a safety car? How else would we know? It would be extremely odd if on some occasions the safety car pitted on the last lap but it wasn't a SC finish and on other occasions it did the same and was. Basically, I believe what defines a SC finish is the SC being out on the last lap. Why? It seems logical to me. Yes, the FIA may have it in an illogical way, though.

Okay, if you can accept my logic there is more likely than not, and can see why interpretation 2 seems more reasonable, read on.

I see what you're saying, and you argue it very well, but I'm not convinced yet. Firstly, I think you must surely agree that for a sporting regulation that fans and commentators will want to check, it's not exactly well-written because it's open to different interpretations. It's not exactly comparable in its clarity to the offside rule for example. And unlike some technical regs, there's no need for this to be so complicated - would it really be unbearably poor legal form to just add in a few words extra so we didn't have to debate this!

Your argument for interpretation 2 rather than 1 is pretty technical to anyone without a legal background but also it relies on a "SC finish" requiring a definition. In rule 40.13 the wording is "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane..." which is not obviously in need of a definition is it? Couldn't you take it as common sense that the SC is deployed if it has not yet been called in according to the procedure outlined in rule 40.11?

The procedure in rule 40.11 seems to have been followed to the letter, although I can't say for sure, and so it seems reasonable to assume the race was back on. If green flags are meant to be shown when the SC is still deployed then that is a very confusing rule, and if they're not meant to be shown then it seems very unfair to penalise Schumacher for a marshaling mistake, though I guess in that case he'd have to be put back to 7th.

I'm not clear what status the flags and lights have in all this. I had a quick look and couldn't find any rules about flags and lights! If you ask me the whole thing's a shambles now that Max's gone.

40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.

At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.

In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.

As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

I've been watching at the last lap again and all those conditions were met. The FIA sucks but Schumacher at least deserves the 7th place. It can only happen in FIA's planet, I expect Ferrari trying to convince the FIA about how stupid and confusing that rule was but for sure they knew it before hand.

Yep. And imho 2 wrongs do make a right here!

IF the green lights were improperly displayed then Charlie W. deserves a trip to the "woodshed".

[AleHop 0]

IF the green lights were improperly displayed then Charlie W. deserves a trip to the "woodshed".

He deserves it anyway.

Sorry - judging from your later posts, I think you already see what I meant. And btw I wasn't talking about you when I mentioned 'normal English speakers' before. I just meant people like me as opposed to lawyers.

My post wasn't in reply to that, I didn't understand what you meant but I will belive you meant what I meant in my later posts.

Yep. And imho 2 wrongs do make a right here!

7th or 6th place for Schumacher is the right thing to do but if the FIA admit to appeal and change a post-race drive-through that would be against their own rules. Even if that's the right thing to do they should take the heat and admit it.

[spitfire 0]

Still at it? This is fun.

Fun it is!!

You know maybe rule 40.13 just amounts to an admission from the FIA that they expect normal Formula one racing to have no overtaking.

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

[Schumikonen 2]

Are you saying all those conditions were not met? To me it appears they were. I certainly saw the orange lights go off, and while I didn't follow the timing monitors, I hear they got the "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" message. Green flags and lights were also shown.

EDIT: didn't see your latest post before answering, sorry.

In the Live Timing window you can still see the following comment:

The Safety car will come in this lap, meaning Webber will be racing as he heads to the line to take the checkered flag.

How can people argue that the safety car period was not over yet? but if you don't believe me I am posting the prove just read the fisrt comment or go straight to formula1.com ang head to live timing and check it out for yourself.

Now for those who said that the race ended under the Safety car condition I would like to see your evidence but please note that I am notonly posting my words I am bringing evidence no theories.

[Schumikonen 2]

The ruling by the stewards means from now on "don't pay the flags or lights as the case may any mind", green is good to go racing in any language in any series, end of.

Thanks for this words, that's what I've been saying since the race ended but some of my fellow posters don't seem to understand this point.

[Quiet One 15]

Fun it is!!

You know maybe rule 40.13 just amounts to an admission from the FIA that they expect normal Formula one racing to have no overtaking.

Indeed! Gotta love the irony!

[Schumikonen 2]

7th or 6th place for Schumacher is the right thing to do but if the FIA admit to appeal and change a post-race drive-through that would be against their own rules. Even if that's the right thing to do they should take the heat and admit it.

Not really as they will be appealing the decision not the penalty, if this decision is void so will be the penalty because the reason of the penalty is the decision as the drive-throught never really happened all things will go back to normal, this is not the cas of appeling the penalty indicating that it was to harsh case that will still keep the decision to punish the driver but will change the punishment.

[maure 1]

Yes, if Schumi's move and Cav's thread weren't enough to make anyone _smile_ then you can always rely on Maure. I'm pretty sure Alonso still had the tyres underneath him to hold off Michael for one more corner, especially considering his team mate was getting 'zero' wear on his set. He was caught out by the great man, just as he was the day before by the barriers. As Cav says in his other thread, Fernando has made a lot of errors this year, considering how people always rant about his consistency. The only thing Alonso's got right so far is twisting the team against Felipe, perhaps with the help of his sponsors.

Of course I smile. Hardly ever don't. For instance, your last sentence about "sponsors" holding Massa back is straight laughing stuff.

Now, your btching about "the great man" and so on is all bull. You know it too. As is the wear of an entire race on the same tyres. It was evident at the time by looking at the times that Alonso was holding back to ease on his tyres. So did, for example, Hamilton for other reasons. In my opinion, this mattered when Schumacher went after Alonso. I could be wrong and Alonso was caught sleeping but we are talking about guys that have been around a long time.

That said, I consider Schumacher's pass within the rules. FIA fcked up again. It gives Alonso 2 more points but screws up Mercedes big time. Maybe it is a warning shout from Ecclestone to Mercedes to stop fcking around with Rosberg which has demonstrated time and again that is faster than Schumacher.

[maure 1]

There seems to be more about the "legality" of Schumacher's move.

Apparently the rulebook says that if the race _finishes_ under the safety car, no passing is allowed. So, did it finish under the SC?

[maure 1]

Here it is, clause 40.13:

http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/01080

It seems Schumacher screwed up and so, I stand corrected. Schumacher deserved the penalty.

[Schumikonen 2]

There seems to be more about the "legality" of Schumacher's move.

Apparently the rulebook says that if the race _finishes_ under the safety car, no passing is allowed. So, did it finish under the SC?

You are not following my post, the race DIDN'T finished under the SC, look what the F1 live timing said about it.

[Kopite Girl 0]

I know you think Damon Hill is a great decent honourable man, being British and all that, but the fact is right now he was part of a panel that made a very stupid decision. Whether he did it out of spite or incompetence I don't know.

I don't. I think he's a twat with his head up Lewis arse. But regardless of whether I'm british which is a bit presumptuous I liked his racing style.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Please tell MSC he is not driving a Ferrari anymore... capishe?

[yurp 0]

Thank you Schumi, not because you were right or wrong (that seems fairly murky), but because you gave us something to talk about in an otherwise totally dull race.

Thank you FIA, for having so many rules that in conjunction they serve to confuse everyone - even yourselves.

Farce?

I think so.

Sensible ruling...

Alonso 6th (schumi shouldn't have overtaken), Schumi 7th (20sec penalty for overtaking under green flag is silly especially when it demotes him to 12th because safety car had bunched field up).

Will common sense prevail?

Hmm - this is the first real test for Todt, but I tend to think "FIA, common sense? Hell no."

[AleHop 0]

Not really as they will be appealing the decision not the penalty, if this decision is void so will be the penalty because the reason of the penalty is the decision as the drive-throught never really happened all things will go back to normal, this is not the cas of appeling the penalty indicating that it was to harsh case that will still keep the decision to punish the driver but will change the punishment.

I wouldn't be surprised if the FIA do what you say even if it is a legal blasphemy after recent precents. Legally they can decide the decision was wrong and still the drive-through penalty should stand unchanged. Don't kill the messenger.

Art. 152 Penalties

...

Penalties of driving through or stopping in pit lanes together with certain penalties specified in FIA Championship regulations where this is expressly stated, are not susceptible to appeal.

...

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/international_sporting_code.pdf

Was it a drive through? Yes. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83686

Latest precedent: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7627941.stm

[Quiet One 15]

Thank you Schumi, not because you were right or wrong (that seems fairly murky), but because you gave us something to talk about in an otherwise totally dull race.

Thank you FIA, for having so many rules that in conjunction they serve to confuse everyone - even yourselves.

Farce?

I think so.

Sensible ruling...

Alonso 6th (schumi shouldn't have overtaken), Schumi 7th (20sec penalty for overtaking under green flag is silly especially when it demotes him to 12th because safety car had bunched field up).

Will common sense prevail?

Hmm - this is the first real test for Todt, but I tend to think "FIA, common sense? Hell no."

Sorry for arguing with you but people with enough common sense to have a civiulized discussion are scarce these days.

The 20 sec penalty is harsh and what is even worse, it's unmodifiable. It is just because of the silly drive through at the end of the race rule. (Wait, was it handed "at the end of the race" or "after the end of the race"? Or before?) In any case, that rule has been used in the past (against Hamilton) and silly or not, is a clear, well-known rule.

As for the passing under green flag, if you want you can read the arguments here ad nauseam but this is what happened (I am a big fan of Monk series )

- Rule 40.11 says that when the SC leaves, green lights are on and cars can overtake past the SC line.

- Rule 40.13 says that, should a GP finish under the SC, cars should finish "as normal, without overtaking"

- Lights were green at the end of the race.

IMHO:

- Rule 40.11 is irrelevant. Because rule 40.13 is more specific and takes precedence. The discussion about whether the SC pitted "at the end of the race" or "on the last lap, but not at the end of the race" is so bizantine I can't even imagine why are we discussing it, except as an excuse to taunt and insult "us blind Alonso fans" which, as usual, didn't resort to personal insults (well, I called Cav "Cav" but even then I made it clear I was just joking), accepted the fact that the rules should be clearer, accepted that Schumi's pass was not intentionally illegal and accepted that Alonso made many mistakes. That is a lot more than "the loyal opposition" usually does but...seems like the Forum is like this these days. *sigh*

- Why is it bizantine? Because the end of the race is not something that "happens" unexpectedly. So if a SC is deployed and it is still out on the last lap, then there is no "previous moment" when it can be pulled out. The SC will be out until the finish of the race. Whether it crosses the line on the track or in the pits is irrelevant. Laps are taken as wholes, unless people is ready to accept that a SC can be out for a fraction of a lap. That being said, the racing could be resumed BEFORE the starting line under rule 40.11 (which is obviously the general rule) but not under 40.13, the specific rule for a SC on the last lap (it might be a weirdly written rule, but the sense is pretty clear). IMHO? The "as normal" is either an idiotic wording issue or it was placed there because they were thinking about some obscure situation in the past that we don't know about. In any case, it should be removed or the rule should be made clearer.

- Then why the green lights? Either because Whitting understood it all wrong, or because he had a moment. In any case, the lights themselves were inconsistent with rule 40.13. As far as I know, rules have precedence over colored lights. If anything, Whitting should be penalized for the whole ****up with 20 seconds which will demote him to grid girl. As for Schumi, he obviously saw the lights and went for it. Drivers watch the lights, not the rule books while racing. But that's still not enough to forfeit a rule breach.

- I don't think Todt would have much to do here. He can't break the rules just because the rules are confusing. At best, he could ask for them to be changed for the next time. Anything else wouldn't be too sensible. I would like to see how will people here react if JT leaves everything in place..."Todt loves Alonso and hates Schumi"?? "Todt was bought by Ferrari sponsors"?

Who knows? If Nico Rosberg and Ross Brawn's opinions were used as evidence here...anything goes

It was a fun argument all day, but also very disappointing to see some attitudes. Certainly hard to feel welcome here anymore. On this nostalgic note, I leave for my bed.

[Piotr 0]

hahahahah!!!! this is hilarious. For once I agree with Cav. FIVE pages of discussion because the GREAt Schumacher, 7-time WDC, bend / broke the rules to pass - for SIXTH place!!! and he had to do it to pass the guy who started from a PIT LANE. Dead last... HAHAHAHA!!!

If this does not prove that Schumacher was a petty little cheat who got to win because a) He drove a Ferrari, Ferrari was the best car at that time, c) he was shielded from any possibility of his teammate kicking his arse by team orders (poor Rosberg...) then I don't know what does. Now, just from a practical point of view, if SC is NEVER to take the checker flag, how do you make sure that race ends under caution? AND, are you (all of you) seriously proposing that FIA, in the most insane moment of their collective minds, would decide that it is a great idea to allow racing - FROM THE ENTRY TO A PIT LANE TO THE FINISH LINE ONLY???? Are you people insane (except Cavallino - his worry about global warming robbed him of any logical thought - he needs to be excused) ????? What sense would it make ???? THink, people! Thinking has a collosal future...

Professor - great explanation of the rule - these were my thoughts exactly.

[Piotr 0]

Gee, Webber thinks the race ended under SC:

"MW: Yeah, I was on the radio and they said look you have got Jarno (Trulli) and I think it was (Karun) Chandhok in front with a few laps to go. I was nursing the car quite a lot in the last part of the race but with backmarkers you can lose a lot of time when you catch them. I saw Jarno going for a lunge down the inside of Rascasse and I thought ‘what the hell is going to happen here’ and they interlocked wheels, he went flying in the air and I just hoped I had some options to go on the inside and sure enough I did. I was just really hoping that Chandhok was okay as it looked like the car was around the head area and I thought ‘God, now we have another safety car but let’s finish it under the safety car so I don’t have to worry about doing one lap after the restart’. It was good obviously as both of us could just cross the line quite straightforward and get a very good one-two for the team."

Then again, what does HE know? He is just a driver, not an expert, like some on this forum...

[F1Racer 0]

As painful as it is after such a brilliant move, I do think now that the FIA have got this decision right.

However, the FIA really do need to re-write this rule so it is clearer and doesn't sound so contradictory.

Stating that the race will end with the safety car deployed then going on to say that the safety car will pit at the end of the last lap is contradictory.

Either keep the SC out until it crosses the start/finish line or keep the track under yellow flag conditions until all cars have finished the race.

Clearly rule 40:13 trumps 40:11 and clearly in this case rule 40:13 trumps the tracks green flag status too.

The Professor has interpreted it correctly, but in simple terms its this:-

IF the SC is still deployed on the last lap it will peel off into the pit lane on that last lap but SC conditions still apply and cars are not allowed to overtake.

But why the green flags/lights then ? Well here's the thing... a lot of you have said 'the green flag means you can race again', however The Official F1 Website describes the green flag as "Green flag - All clear. The driver has passed the potential danger point and prohibitions imposed by yellow flags have been lifted. "

This indicates that the green flag just tells the driver that the previous yellow flag situation is now clear. Normally that goes hand in hand with getting back to racing, BUT... if rule 40:13 is in effect, it takes priority.

So in summary.... rule 40:13 could be better worded by a teenager and for clarity's sake the track should really remain under yellow/SC conditions until the cars have crossed the line if the SC is peeling in on the last lap.

A shame for Michael, I seriously doubt the appeal will have any effect, but damn that was a great opportunistic move and yes if the team told Schumi it was ok to pass then the team should bear the penalty not the driver (or Michaels pass should be annulled and the result be Alonso 6th and Schumacher 7th.

I reckon if Schumi made that pass in a Ferrari he'd have gotten away with it.

[yurp 0]

Sorry for arguing with you but people with enough common sense to have a civiulized discussion are scarce these days.

...

But I agree with everything you wrote, so I don't think we're arguing at all.

I think that the outcome will be much as you say. I also agree with your reasoning in order to reach that conclusion.

What I see happening and what I would like to see happening are two different things.

I would like to see FIA hold up their hands (Charlie Whiting?) and admit that the green lights were their error. (won't happen)

If the FIA didn't run a race according to the rules, I should think it will be hard for them to defend the penalty given under those rules.

Unfortunately, if they do the sensible thing (Alonso 6th, Schumi 7th) it sets all kinds of precidents and they would also have to deal with appeals from drivers placed 7th to 10th who would loose points if Schumacher was reinstated in 7th. (won't happen)

Once again we see a situation caused 95% by the FIA from which at least 1 driver will suffer (either way). It's a shoddy business.

There is one thing in which we disagree though - Monk is utter crap.

EDIT - a very simple rule change which Todt should make is...

The SC will not come into the pits on the last lap.

(ie. If the SC is on track during the last lap, it may as well finish it. If the cars can't overtake anyway, then why not?)