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cavallino

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(PS To those with some experience of the law, is it normal for laws and rules to be this ambiguous?)

Yes, laws generally are. Which is why we end up with courts, lawyers and quoting legal precedents all the time.

The FIA has a much easier task though since they aren't dealing with the uncertainties of real life.

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Oh I am wrong because he made up his own wording for FIA rules? Or you just butted in to attack me because of a long held grudge? Grow up.

Hey Cav - i"m not butting in -- it's called participating - try it sometime - instead of pontificating -

no grudge here man just observation but thanks for listening dude.

now back to the rules

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

just wondering??

How can the race end under the safety car if the safety car leaves the track before the checkered flag???

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If Alonso was told not to overtake, what was he doing losing control of his car and going sideways? Does he plead incompetence?

Even when he knew it wasn't allowed, and he wasn't warming the tyres much under the Safety Car, he instinctly tried to avoid Schumacher overtaking him. The tyres were very worn and a bit cold which explains why he went sideways.

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it's called participating

By attacking the person who is right???

How can the race end under the safety car if the safety car leaves the track before the checkered flag???

By having the signals for safety car conditions - waved yellows, 'SC' boards, yellow lights, like in the picture of Australia 2009 that I posted. As soon as they announce the safety car, the race is under 'safety car conditions', even though it obviously take a minute for the car to drive out onto the track. However, none of those indications were there at the end of the race, instead we had green lights everywhere.

It's bloody ridiculous - the radio is a fallback, and they fail all the time, in fact Schumacher had radio issues just before the race start. YOU CANNOT depend on the driver to know which lap they're on through radio. That's why we have flags/ coloured signals. Green - free to race. Yellow - caution, no overttaking. Double waved yellow - go really slow or something. Yellow/ Red (?) oil on track. Black flag - DQ, stop immediately. Red Flag - race stopped. Chequered flag - race over. These are signals for racing drivers that they can read even at 300kph, and now they get them on their steering wheel dashboard. Now with this judgement they are making a mockery of it. Schumacher is supposed to know it's the last lap and therefore he cannot overtake even though there are green flags everywhere? F$%k you FIA.

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By attacking the person who is right???

By having the signals for safety car conditions - waved yellows, 'SC' boards, yellow lights, like in the picture of Australia 2009 that I posted. As soon as they announce the safety car, the race is under 'safety car conditions', even though it obviously take a minute for the car to drive out onto the track. However, none of those indications were there at the end of the race, instead we had green lights everywhere.

Exactly!! green light = race

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Yes but it's not clear whether that rule applies in this case or not. How are we to know if the safety car is still 'deployed' if it comes in on the final lap? Maybe it's coming in because racing can resume because the mess has been cleared... or maybe it's coming in because racing can't resume and we just don't want the fans to know the race is ending under a safety car because then the sport would look silly... :P

The difference is the track status, Yellow means race finished under SC but Green means racing can resume, no rocket science here.

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Even when he knew it wasn't allowed, and he wasn't warming the tyres much under the Safety Car, he instinctly tried to avoid Schumacher overtaking him. The tyres were very worn and a bit cold which explains why he went sideways.

With all due respect, this is false, Schumacher would have had a chance unless he(Alonso) went sideways like he did, was just at that moment that Schumi made his move, if you are speculating here please say so and your answer would be treated like a specualtion.

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By attacking the person who is right???

Cav I am not trying to fight with you - but in the interest of accuracy I never actually said you were wrong.

"Don't worry about Cav I doubt you will ever change his mind about anything no matter how wrong he might be."

Further more as this story plays out it may well be that the FIA realizes the conflicting signals given. They may even change the rule or change the penalty or do nothing. It may turn out that Schumi was totally correct and if it's true that,as he has now pointed out the team told him he could fight to the end once past the safety car line then the team should shoulder the blame if there is an infraction.

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I'd like to point out I am not a Schumacher fan so no biased towards him.

"Race stewards ruled that Schumacher breached safety rules, but Mercedes have announced that they will appeal."

BBC Sport.

This could mean that the FIA are punishing Schumi for the pass but with a different reason than the ones discussed here?

Its clear Ross Brawn knew the rules well enough to advise the move and Schumi took advantage brilliantly. Even Martin Brundle said on BBC commentary when Webber passed the Red Bull mechanics celebrating before the Racasse "its not over yet guys, they are still racing after the safety car line." (something along those lines). Meaning to everyones understanding at the time, the race wasnt finishing under the safety car as from the safety car line to the finish line was green flags and not under safety car conditions! If the race were to finish under the safety car, yes the SC would pull into the pits but the SC boards and track status would be yellow flags and essentially from the safety car line to the finish would be under the safety car too.

Yes there arent many points up for grabs so maybe this isnt worth fighting, but it really is. The FIA have c*cked up and to penalise a driver for passing someone under green flag doesnt make sense and scandalous. The irony is the FIA are trying to get more overtaking into F1 with rule changes and what have you, but then they penalise a driver for passing a car legally? F*cks me off and just shows me and the world this sport has lost nearly all its credibility. F1 is now* a joke of a sport, and I have been following F1 since I was 8.

*edited as i missed out the word now in he last line.

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My thoughts on the penalty, from a legal perspective;

The relevant rule seems to be rule 40.13: "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking".

This is really a two parted rule, the first part defines a race condition and the second part defines what you can do if that race condition happens.

Part 1) "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap". This part seems to define a safety car (SC) finish, the quoted line defines what constitutes a SC finish. A SC finish is clearly defined as "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap" (emphasis added by me). Therefore the defining characteristic of a safety car finish is the safety car "entering the pitlane at the end of the last lap".

In the GP, the safety did in fact enter the pitlane at the "end of the last lap" which clearly then indicates the race ended under the safety car. People are perhaps getting confused because they think a safety car finish requires the SC to cross the start/finish line on the last lap, clearly this isn't the case as the paragraph above shows.

Part 2) "and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking" (emphasis added by me). This is the enforceable part of the rule, it is the instruction to the drivers/teams that overtaking is disallowed when a safety car finish is taking place (as defined above in part 1).

Taking the rule apart and looking at both halves of it (the definition of a SC finish and the actual rule which then forbids overtaking) the decision seems extremely simple: the SC did enter the pits on the last lap, therefore it was a SC finish, therefore overtaking was illegal regardless of any safety car lines, Schumacher did in fact overtake, therefore a penalty must be applied as that is an illegal overtaking manoeuvre.

Verdict: the stewards applied the wording of the FIA's rules correctly, the decision was right.

As for the FIA's rules and the operation of flags, there is surely a problem with showing green flags and messages such as "the track is clear", which usually means "racing is okay" whilst having a rule which can in this circumstance completely contradict that. That needs to be looked at.

.. and from a sporting perspective;

Bad decision/FIA rules/operation of green flags by the marshals (FIA) - that was a good pass. Why was Alonso sideways through that corner? He invited a pass and MSC was opportunistic and smart enough to take it.

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Further more as this story plays out it may well be that the FIA realizes the conflicting signals given. They may even change the rule or change the penalty or do nothing. It may turn out that Schumi was totally correct and if it's true that,as he has now pointed out the team told him he could fight to the end once past the safety car line then the team should shoulder the blame if there is an infraction.

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

If there's any other interpretation about the rule, like the SC entering the pit lane at the end of the last lap but the race no ending under the SC and still being possible to race normaly for the last few meters of the last lap, then the rule should have never existed in the first place.

If SC enters the pit-lane in the last lap then you are forced to take the checkered flag as normal (=geen light) without overtaking. No other interpretation is possible because the rule exists for a specific case where the race is under the SC on the last lap. Subtle logic but not uncommon in law when there's only 1 possible interpretation for a rule.

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My thoughts on the penalty, from a legal perspective;

The relevant rule seems to be rule 40.13: "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking".

This is really a two parted rule, the first part defines a race condition and the second part defines what you can do if that race condition happens.

Part 1) "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap". This part seems to define a safety car (SC) finish, the quoted line defines what constitutes a SC finish. A SC finish is clearly defined as "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap" (emphasis added by me). Therefore the defining characteristic of a safety car finish is the safety car "entering the pitlane at the end of the last lap".

In the GP, the safety did in fact enter the pitlane at the "end of the last lap" which clearly then indicates the race ended under the safety car. People are perhaps getting confused because they think a safety car finish requires the SC to cross the start/finish line on the last lap, clearly this isn't the case as the paragraph above shows.

Part 2) "and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking" (emphasis added by me). This is the enforceable part of the rule, it is the instruction to the drivers/teams that overtaking is disallowed when a safety car finish is taking place (as defined above in part 1).

Taking the rule apart and looking at both halves of it (the definition of a SC finish and the actual rule which then forbids overtaking) the decision seems extremely simple: the SC did enter the pits on the last lap, therefore it was a SC finish, therefore overtaking was illegal regardless of any safety car lines, Schumacher did in fact overtake, therefore a penalty must be applied as that is an illegal overtaking manoeuvre.

Verdict: the stewards applied the wording of the FIA's rules correctly, the decision was right.

As for the FIA's rules and the operation of flags, there is surely a problem with showing green flags and messages such as "the track is clear", which usually means "racing is okay" whilst having a rule which can in this circumstance completely contradict that. That needs to be looked at.

I must admit your English is better than mine but don't forget it says as normal. Every word in a rule has a meaning, you rub some words out and you change the rule because every word is there for some reason.

If a team don't understand a rule they should ask the FIA about it during pre-season.

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My thoughts on the penalty, from a legal perspective;

The relevant rule seems to be rule 40.13: "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking".

This is really a two parted rule, the first part defines a race condition and the second part defines what you can do if that race condition happens.

Part 1) "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap". This part seems to define a safety car (SC) finish, the quoted line defines what constitutes a SC finish. A SC finish is clearly defined as "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap" (emphasis added by me). Therefore the defining characteristic of a safety car finish is the safety car "entering the pitlane at the end of the last lap".

In the GP, the safety did in fact enter the pitlane at the "end of the last lap" which clearly then indicates the race ended under the safety car. People are perhaps getting confused because they think a safety car finish requires the SC to cross the start/finish line on the last lap, clearly this isn't the case as the paragraph above shows.

Part 2) "and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking" (emphasis added by me). This is the enforceable part of the rule, it is the instruction to the drivers/teams that overtaking is disallowed when a safety car finish is taking place (as defined above in part 1).

Taking the rule apart and looking at both halves of it (the definition of a SC finish and the actual rule which then forbids overtaking) the decision seems extremely simple: the SC did enter the pits on the last lap, therefore it was a SC finish, therefore overtaking was illegal regardless of any safety car lines, Schumacher did in fact overtake, therefore a penalty must be applied as that is an illegal overtaking manoeuvre.

Verdict: the stewards applied the wording of the FIA's rules correctly, the decision was right.

As for the FIA's rules and the operation of flags, there is surely a problem with showing green flags and messages such as "the track is clear", which usually means "racing is okay" whilst having a rule which can in this circumstance completely contradict that. That needs to be looked at.

.. and from a sporting perspective;

Bad decision/FIA rules/operation of green flags by the marshals (FIA) - that was a good pass. Why was Alonso sideways through that corner? He invited a pass and MSC was opportunistic and smart enough to take it.

What a load of worthless miasma spewed from the filthiest pits of a deeply disturbed, perverse mind!

Now, regarding your post :D :

- I was writing something simpler (me not being a lawyer nor anything close to it) at the Damon-gate-whatever thread then thought it over as it was hard for me to explain, so, as usual, I will take from where you left and claim all the credits :D

- Basically. I agree with you. I would only like to add that to blame Hill for all this just shows the state of mind of the people here, not the actual situation. There are 3 (I think) stewards. Even if Damon Hill was delirious with lust for revenge towards Schumi and waiting for this to happen, that wouldn't explain why at least one other non-Hill entity voted the same. As far as I know the other steward wasn't Rubinho, right? And if it is indeed a case of bad signalling/coordination between the SC and the road lights then Whitting should be the guy to blame.

But then again, who could blame Whitting of being pro-Alonso? :D

There's nothing much to add, seriously. But there's still a lot to add, humorously!

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Anyhow, FIA should revoke Schumi's penalty for the simple reason that with his superb move, he's generated a whole lot of buzz for F1. Just see the number of members (as in posters, not you-know-what) infesting TF1 today. The net's agog with chatter about this move. F1 ratings (outside of TV) very high.

Reinstate his position, pretty please?

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Part 1) "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap". This part seems to define a safety car (SC) finish, the quoted line defines what constitutes a SC finish. A SC finish is clearly defined as "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap" (emphasis added by me). Therefore the defining characteristic of a safety car finish is the safety car "entering the pitlane at the end of the last lap".

That sentence does not define a safety car finish. If it did, it would instead read "If the safety car enters the pitlane at the end of the last lap, the race ends as if the safety was deployed." Now, the sentence merely indicates that safety car never greets the chequered flag.

Some thoughts on how I think things should be (but I have no idea if such logic is actually used). The race can end with the safety car or without the safety car, even if SC is deployed during the last lap. If the track is cleared during the last lap, so that the safety car would enter the pit lane even if it wasn't the last lap, then racing can continue normally after the SC line is crossed, and green flags and lights should indicate to drivers that they are free to race. If the track conditions are such that it would not be safe for the SC to come off the track were it not the last lap, then safety car enters the pit lane (so that it doesn't cross the finish line with chequered flag), but SC conditions remain, indicated by SC signs and yellow flags. Obviously, no overtaking is allowed.

Today's race would fit into the first category, the track was clean, safety car would have entered the pits anyway (at least that's my impression), and the drivers were given the green light to race. It's a no brainer, overtaking should be allowed as drivers should be able to race freely.

Just my sentiments.

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I must admit your English is better than mine but don't forget it says as normal. Every word in a rule has a meaning, you rub some words out and you change the rule because every word is there for some reason.

If a team don't understand a rule they should ask the FIA about it during pre-season.

Why you little! No, actually, you raise an interesting point with that. The "as normal" is sloppy but unfortunately if somebody was arguing that "as normal" means "racing is allowed" then I doubt they would get very far as you must read the rule in its full context, i.e. the "as normal" is immediately modified by the "without overtaking" clause. You cannot simply ignore that to suit your cause, even if you're Ross Brawn!

I suspect what the FIA meant by "as normal" was that the driver shall take the chequered flag as they usually do at the end of a race, which means that despite the Safety Car finish you still have to cross the start/finish line if you want to be a classified finisher.

What a load of worthless miasma spewed from the filthiest pits of a deeply disturbed, perverse mind!

Now, regarding your post :D :

- I was writing something simpler (me not being a lawyer nor anything close to it) at the Damon-gate-whatever thread then thought it over as it was hard for me to explain, so, as usual, I will take from where you left and claim all the credits :D

- Basically. I agree with you. I would only like to add that to blame Hill for all this just shows the state of mind of the people here, not the actual situation. There are 3 (I think) stewards. Even if Damon Hill was delirious with lust for revenge towards Schumi and waiting for this to happen, that wouldn't explain why at least one other non-Hill entity voted the same. As far as I know the other steward wasn't Rubinho, right? And if it is indeed a case of bad signalling/coordination between the SC and the road lights then Whitting should be the guy to blame.

But then again, who could blame Whitting of being pro-Alonso? :D

There's nothing much to add, seriously. But there's still a lot to add, humorously!

:lol: Yep! I don't see how Hill could have reached a different decision, tbh. This is one of the most sterile controversies for a while imo because the rule is actually very clear.

The FIA/Whiting does have a case to answer considering the green flags though, as you say. Perhaps Mercedes appeal will hinge on which set of rules has superiority, e.g. are track based flags more important/authoritative than a written rule in the FIA rulebook? Which of them is "sovereign"?

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Yes but it's not clear whether that rule applies in this case or not. How are we to know if the safety car is still 'deployed' if it comes in on the final lap? Maybe it's coming in because racing can resume because the mess has been cleared... or maybe it's coming in because racing can't resume and we just don't want the fans to know the race is ending under a safety car because then the sport would look silly... :P

I think you have it exactly right there, Muzza.

I'd like to point out I am not a Schumacher fan so no biased towards him.

"Race stewards ruled that Schumacher breached safety rules, but Mercedes have announced that they will appeal."

BBC Sport.

This could mean that the FIA are punishing Schumi for the pass but with a different reason than the ones discussed here?

Its clear Ross Brawn knew the rules well enough to advise the move and Schumi took advantage brilliantly. Even Martin Brundle said on BBC commentary when Webber passed the Red Bull mechanics celebrating before the Racasse "its not over yet guys, they are still racing after the safety car line." (something along those lines). Meaning to everyones understanding at the time, the race wasnt finishing under the safety car as from the safety car line to the finish line was green flags and not under safety car conditions! If the race were to finish under the safety car, yes the SC would pull into the pits but the SC boards and track status would be yellow flags and essentially from the safety car line to the finish would be under the safety car too.

Yes there arent many points up for grabs so maybe this isnt worth fighting, but it really is. The FIA have c*cked up and to penalise a driver for passing someone under green flag doesnt make sense and scandalous. The irony is the FIA are trying to get more overtaking into F1 with rule changes and what have you, but then they penalise a driver for passing a car legally? F*cks me off and just shows me and the world this sport has lost nearly all its credibility. F1 is now* a joke of a sport, and I have been following F1 since I was 8.

*edited as i missed out the word now in he last line.

To be honest, I don't think Martin knew about the rule that states the SC will come into the pit even if the race is finishing under the SC.

My thoughts on the penalty, from a legal perspective;

The relevant rule seems to be rule 40.13: "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking".

This is really a two parted rule, the first part defines a race condition and the second part defines what you can do if that race condition happens.

Part 1) "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap". This part seems to define a safety car (SC) finish, the quoted line defines what constitutes a SC finish. A SC finish is clearly defined as "if the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap" (emphasis added by me). Therefore the defining characteristic of a safety car finish is the safety car "entering the pitlane at the end of the last lap".

In the GP, the safety did in fact enter the pitlane at the "end of the last lap" which clearly then indicates the race ended under the safety car. People are perhaps getting confused because they think a safety car finish requires the SC to cross the start/finish line on the last lap, clearly this isn't the case as the paragraph above shows.

Part 2) "and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking" (emphasis added by me). This is the enforceable part of the rule, it is the instruction to the drivers/teams that overtaking is disallowed when a safety car finish is taking place (as defined above in part 1).

Taking the rule apart and looking at both halves of it (the definition of a SC finish and the actual rule which then forbids overtaking) the decision seems extremely simple: the SC did enter the pits on the last lap, therefore it was a SC finish, therefore overtaking was illegal regardless of any safety car lines, Schumacher did in fact overtake, therefore a penalty must be applied as that is an illegal overtaking manoeuvre.

Verdict: the stewards applied the wording of the FIA's rules correctly, the decision was right.

As for the FIA's rules and the operation of flags, there is surely a problem with showing green flags and messages such as "the track is clear", which usually means "racing is okay" whilst having a rule which can in this circumstance completely contradict that. That needs to be looked at.

.. and from a sporting perspective;

Bad decision/FIA rules/operation of green flags by the marshals (FIA) - that was a good pass. Why was Alonso sideways through that corner? He invited a pass and MSC was opportunistic and smart enough to take it.

I don't think there is a problem understanding the rule, rather what constitutes a 'SC finish' as Muzza pointed out above. Should a SC finish be indicated by yellow flags or is a SC finish is indicated by green flags when the SC pulls into the pits?

I have no idea myself as I only have a vague recollection of a race finishing under a SC and I wouldn't be able to tell you of the procedure as such, but then I have a terrible memory :lol:

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

If there's any other interpretation about the rule, like the SC entering the pit lane at the end of the last lap but the race no ending under the SC and still being possible to race normaly for the last few meters of the last lap, then the rule should have never existed in the first place.

If SC enters the pit-lane in the last lap then you are forced to take the checkered flag as normal (=geen light) without overtaking. No other interpretation is possible because the rule exists for a specific case where the race is under the SC on the last lap. Subtle logic but not uncommon in law when there's only 1 possible interpretation for a rule.

If only it were that easy :lol:

It could also be that the rules exists to differentiate between a SC finish and a normal finish where the SC pits on the last lap, but I am not sure if I can explain this!

It may be that you have to 'ignore' that the race is going to finish and decide if the SC would have pitted on this lap, regardless of the race finish, or would it have had to carry on onto the next lap, if the race had not been finishing. So, in otherwords, had the debris been cleared so that the race could resume, or were they still clearing the track meaning that if it hadn't have been the end of the race, the SC would have still been deployed. Unfortunately, the green light status is not helping in this respect. You would expect a SC finish to be yellow flags/light, but that may not be the case.

Not sure if I have explained that properly, but we shall see! :eusa_think:

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That sentence does not define a safety car finish. If it did, it would instead read "If the safety car enters the pitlane at the end of the last lap, the race ends as if the safety was deployed." Now, the sentence merely indicates that safety car never greets the chequered flag.

Some thoughts on how I think things should be (but I have no idea if such logic is actually used). The race can end with the safety car or without the safety car, even if SC is deployed during the last lap. If the track is cleared during the last lap, so that the safety car would enter the pit lane even if it wasn't the last lap, then racing can continue normally after the SC line is crossed, and green flags and lights should indicate to drivers that they are free to race. If the track conditions are such that it would not be safe for the SC to come off the track were it not the last lap, then safety car enters the pit lane (so that it doesn't cross the finish line with chequered flag), but SC conditions remain, indicated by SC signs and yellow flags. Obviously, no overtaking is allowed.

Today's race would fit into the first category, the track was clean, safety car would have entered the pits anyway (at least that's my impression), and the drivers were given the green light to race. It's a no brainer, overtaking should be allowed as drivers should be able to race freely.

Just my sentiments.

Yes, you explained it better than I did, but that's what I was thinking :lol:

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I'd like to point out I am not a Schumacher fan so no biased towards him.

"Race stewards ruled that Schumacher breached safety rules, but Mercedes have announced that they will appeal."

BBC Sport.

This could mean that the FIA are punishing Schumi for the pass but with a different reason than the ones discussed here?

Its clear Ross Brawn knew the rules well enough to advise the move and Schumi took advantage brilliantly. Even Martin Brundle said on BBC commentary when Webber passed the Red Bull mechanics celebrating before the Racasse "its not over yet guys, they are still racing after the safety car line." (something along those lines). Meaning to everyones understanding at the time, the race wasnt finishing under the safety car as from the safety car line to the finish line was green flags and not under safety car conditions! If the race were to finish under the safety car, yes the SC would pull into the pits but the SC boards and track status would be yellow flags and essentially from the safety car line to the finish would be under the safety car too.

Yes there arent many points up for grabs so maybe this isnt worth fighting, but it really is. The FIA have c*cked up and to penalise a driver for passing someone under green flag doesnt make sense and scandalous. The irony is the FIA are trying to get more overtaking into F1 with rule changes and what have you, but then they penalise a driver for passing a car legally? F*cks me off and just shows me and the world this sport has lost nearly all its credibility. F1 is now* a joke of a sport, and I have been following F1 since I was 8.

*edited as i missed out the word now in he last line.

:clap3: Agree 100% with your post.

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40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

If there's any other interpretation about the rule, like the SC entering the pit lane at the end of the last lap but the race no ending under the SC and still being possible to race normaly for the last few meters of the last lap, then the rule should have never existed in the first place.

If SC enters the pit-lane in the last lap then you are forced to take the checkered flag as normal (=geen light) without overtaking. No other interpretation is possible because the rule exists for a specific case where the race is under the SC on the last lap. Subtle logic but not uncommon in law when there's only 1 possible interpretation for a rule.

That's not the way it is, this is just another invention to justify the penalty.

IF the SC is deploy the track status is yellow if the safety car is not required the SC goes in and the track goes back to green, this is basic racing notions, nothing to argue here, IF the track was still under SC condition it should have remianed yellow, I have proven here that this was not the case, finishing under SC condition means finishing under yellow flags and therefore no overtakes are allow because of the yellow flags, it is very stupid to declare a track green and prevent drivers overtake at the same time, in this case the race DIDN"T FINISH UNDER THE SC because the track status was green.

The following is part of the safety car regulation for F1 and it can be found here

When the safety car is ready to leave the circuit it extinguishes its orange lights, indicating to the drivers that it will peel off into the pits at the end of the current lap. The drivers then continue in formation until they cross the first safety-car line where green lights will indicate that they are free to race again

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That sentence does not define a safety car finish. If it did, it would instead read "If the safety car enters the pitlane at the end of the last lap, the race ends as if the safety was deployed." Now, the sentence merely indicates that safety car never greets the chequered flag.

Hmm but haven't you just simply switched the sentence around? I am not sure how that modifies the meaning, at least from my understanding of English.

It's like saying "if Andres is an idiot, then he will act like an idiot" and "if Andres acts like an idiot, then he is an idiot". It's the same, surely? What do other people think, am I missing something here? Is Andres an idiot? :P

Also, to take your argument from a linguistic one to a practical one, why would the rules need to state that the safety car never meets the chequered flag? I can see why (from my interpretation of that sentence) they would need to define an SC finish (because they are stating you cannot overtake when one takes place), but I can't see why they would write that to indicate that the SC never meets the chequered flag? What is the significance of that?

I am not convinced the FIA are stupid enough to write a rule which states that you can't overtake under an SC finish yet never define what constitutes an SC finish (I know some smart a## will jump in with "the FIA are that stupid" but seriously, that would be like saying you can't speed on a motorway but not telling someone the speed limit).

Anyway, as far as I can see the rule is very clear, the only problem is.. see below.

I don't think there is a problem understanding the rule, rather what constitutes a 'SC finish' as Muzza pointed out above. Should a SC finish be indicated by yellow flags or is a SC finish is indicated by green flags when the SC pulls into the pits?

I have no idea myself as I only have a vague recollection of a race finishing under a SC and I wouldn't be able to tell you of the procedure as such, but then I have a terrible memory :lol:

Yes, the confusion has arisen due to the green flags being in contrast to the "without overtaking" rule when the SC goes into the pits on the last lap. It all depends on whether you follow the green flags or the written rules of the FIA.

I am not sure whether green flags always mean that it is okay to overtake or whether it simply means "the track is clear". If green flags mean that overtaking is allowed (opposite of yellows) then we have a problem because that would conflict with the written rule of an SC finish.

Whereas if green flags mean "the track is clear" or something similar, then Mercedes has absolutely no case as far as I can tell because that means in some situations you can't overtake despite having green flags, e.g. a safety car finish.

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Hmm but haven't you just simply switched the sentence around? I am not sure how that modifies the meaning, at least from my understanding of English.

It's like saying "if Andres is an idiot, then he will act like an idiot" and "if Andres acts like an idiot, then he is an idiot". It's the same, surely? What do other people think, am I missing something here? Is Andres an idiot? :P

Also, to take your argument from a linguistic one to a practical one, why would the rules need to state that the safety car never meets the chequered flag? I can see why (from my interpretation of that sentence) they would need to define an SC finish (because they are stating you cannot overtake when one takes place), but I can't see why they would write that to indicate that the SC never meets the chequered flag? What is the significance of that?

I am not convinced the FIA are stupid enough to write a rule which states that you can't overtake under an SC finish yet never define what constitutes an SC finish (I know some smart a## will jump in with "the FIA are that stupid" but seriously, that would be like saying you can't speed on a motorway but not telling someone the speed limit).

Anyway, as far as I can see the rule is very clear, the only problem is.. see below.

No, I see what he means. I tried explaining it myself, not successfully :lol:

Yes, the confusion has arisen due to the green flags being in contrast to the "without overtaking" rule when the SC goes into the pits on the last lap. It all depends on whether you follow the green flags or the written rules of the FIA.

I am not sure whether green flags always mean that it is okay to overtake or whether it simply means "the track is clear". If green flags mean that overtaking is allowed (opposite of yellows) then we have a problem because that would conflict with the written rule of an SC finish.

Whereas if green flags mean "the track is clear" or something similar, then Mercedes has absolutely no case as far as I can tell because that means in some situations you can't overtake despite having green flags, e.g. a safety car finish.

It certainly hasn't helped, for sure.

If you look at the rule Tommy has quited above, then it would seem to indicate the green means ok to overtake when past the SC line. I am not sure if this applies to a 'SC finish', though, or what the hell is a SC finish :lol:

As said earlier, it may be down to if the SC would have been entering on this lap regardless of the end of the race, or would it have still been deployed if the race hadn't finished, if that makes sense.

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If you look at the rule Tommy has quited above, then it would seem to indicate the green means ok to overtake when past the SC line. I am not sure if this applies to a 'SC finish', though, or what the hell is a SC finish :lol:

As said earlier, it may be down to if the SC would have been entering on this lap regardless of the end of the race, or would it have still been deployed if the race hadn't finished, if that makes sense.

That's exactly what I wanted to show, if the track is under SC then the track should remain under Yellow flags and this was not the case today, I don't know why they can't see that? B)

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Merc teammates side with Schu over Alonso move

May 16 (GMM) Michael Schumacher's Mercedes teammates have sided with the seven time world champion over his controversial last-corner pass on Fernando Alonso.

After deliberating for four hours in Monaco, the stewards on Sunday evening decided to drop the German out of the points, even though team boss Ross Brawn insists the safety car period had officially ended.

Nico Rosberg thought Schumacher's pass had been a good one.

"From my perspective it was a really cool manoeuvre," he told German television RTL, "but apparently it's not allowed."

Interestingly, Rosberg revealed that he was also told by the Mercedes pitwall that overtaking between the safety car line and the chequered flag was allowed.

And Mercedes reserve driver Nick Heidfeld told Sky television: "The move was very clean.

"The rules are different this year. In the past you could only overtake from the start/finish line, now it is from the safety car line. Alonso was a little bit asleep," added the German.

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