mikathegreat2

Dod Turkey

   33 members have voted

  1. 1. DOD Turkey??

    • Hamilton
      14
    • Button
      12
    • Webber
      11
    • Schumacher
      4
    • Rosberg
      0
    • Kubica
      0
    • Massa
      1
    • Nando
      2
    • Sutil
      0
    • Koba
      0
    • Other
      1

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

81 posts in this topic

As for Webber/Vettel, my take is the same as Christian Horner's as far as I can tell: they should have given each other room. The corner was clearly Vettel's, Mark didn't need to let him have it but nor did he, or should he, have squeezed Vettel so much. He invited an accident and he got one. Vettel is still in the wrong though, he shouldn't have tried to push back, however I imagine he didn't like Webber squeezing him and/or didn't want to get on the brakes on the inside and dirtier line. Silly boys, basically.

Oh, I see. He didn't want it, he didn't like it and he just turned into Webber because Webber should have never been there, right? That's the difference between a mature racing driver and a kid with brainfades. Vettel did it last year in Australia and it (together with FIA) cost him the title.

In spite of it all I think it was the team who was responsible of such a big f*ck up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I see. He didn't want it, he didn't like it and he just turned into Webber because Webber should have never been there, right? That's the difference between a mature racing driver and a kid with brainfades. Vettel did it last year in Australia and it (together with FIA) cost him the title.

In spite of it all I think it was the team who was responsible of such a big f*ck up.

I can flip the argument around, saying Webber was being immature to squeeze him like he did. I am not saying Webber should let him through but certainly with a team mate it's not so wise to be quite as ruthless as you might usually be. At least at this point in the championship, I could certainly understand it if it was for the title. But it wasn't, so it was silly to squeeze him and invite such an incident, which I do still think is mostly Vettel's fault, but it goes both ways.

I think it was a lot of factors anyway, Vettel was feeling massive pressure to beat Webber after his problems in the last races and Webber's upturn in performance, also Vettel was looking faster in practice, but had a problem in Q3 which he probably felt (rightly) cost him a pole position. So he was annoyed about that, under pressure, and probably didn't expect such an aggressive Webber. He felt he had some "Divine Right" to win, and that was wrong. But that doesn't excuse Webber's excessive aggression imo, he was probably thinking about letting Vettel through so easily in Malaysia, which cost him a GP win. So he reacted a little too strongly, he went from one extreme of being too sloppy with his mirrors to the opposite of being too aggressive. He invited trouble by initially squeezing Vettel who was clearly going to pull alongside and have the inside for the corner, and you can see Christian Horner, on the pit wall, shouting "move, move" as Vettel came alongside. Takes two to tango I think ;)

Two mature drivers would have given each other room, Webber took the room away from Vettel, and Vettel tried to take it back too quickly. I am not sure if he thought he was past Webber (the mirrors aren't great for that), or if he was actually trying to squeeze Webber over to the right of the track. Or did he hit a bump and lose control or something? The track always looked quite bad there. To me, it looks like the first option, he thought he'd made the move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Hamilton and Button can fight for positions without crashing into eachother why cant Webber and Vettel do it? Thats why Button and Hamilton are world champions and why Vettel and Webber arent I suppose?

:lol:

My sentiments exactly.

Team of the dumb day: Red Bull

Engineer: Mark, detune engine to save fuel. Repeat, save fuel mode. Copy?

A lap later...

Webber: m$%th&/r f#$k%rs b#$t%r&d%s!!!

FFS!!! Webber was leading the race and he was and still is leading the World Championship. They had a 1-2 in their pocket and Vettel still could have beaten Webber in the future if the kid is so good (which I think he is).

No need for footage to know who's to blame here.

Is that really what was said on the radio? It would be very fun to learn what instructions were actually given. From what you write it sounds as if it could be a perfect replica of what I reckon happened with the McLaren drivers (JB not saving as much fuel as LH).

you can see Christian Horner, on the pit wall, shouting "move, move" as Vettel came alongside

:lol:

Again, it would be fun to see the team's reaction. I missed that in the midst of Adrian Newey with his hands in the air. Highly entertaining! It also suggests to me that Vettel is even more the favourite of the team than I suspected.

Imho Webber was tough but basically fair, as I think you both agree. It depends on what exactly was said on the radio and other factors but it seems to me that Vettel can't expect him to move over and give him the position without a fight just because they're teammates. In the end I think Webber will be happier with the result than if he'd won from Vettel, except if the team really is completely behind Vettel and pins all the blame on him.

Both drivers have a track record of stupid crashes and I doubt this is the last we'll see from either of them. The McLaren lineup is altogether classier. As someone I know says, McLaren are throwing money away trying to out-develop Red Bull - that team beats itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't vote for anyone this time around. It was a stupid ant race. One would have to way go down the field to find something/someone of worth...

But it amuses that you took Vettel out of the choices.

I put in top 10 finishers & an other option! & Vettel made a silly mistake today so he doesn't deserve to be on the options list anywhy!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Red bull should sit Vettel out for the next race - the way any good coach/team would treat a player wwho acted that selfishly! They need to teach him how to grow up a little and think a bit more about the team! What a stupid! stupid! stupid! move. Yes vettel you are the crazy one! Now as this story unfolds it sounds like the team are trying to protect him too.

Make Vettel sit out the next race and use your reserve driver instead!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can flip the argument around, saying Webber was being immature to squeeze him like he did. I am not saying Webber should let him through but certainly with a team mate it's not so wise to be quite as ruthless as you might usually be. At least at this point in the championship, I could certainly understand it if it was for the title. But it wasn't, so it was silly to squeeze him and invite such an incident, which I do still think is mostly Vettel's fault, but it goes both ways.

I think it was a lot of factors anyway, Vettel was feeling massive pressure to beat Webber after his problems in the last races and Webber's upturn in performance, also Vettel was looking faster in practice, but had a problem in Q3 which he probably felt (rightly) cost him a pole position. So he was annoyed about that, under pressure, and probably didn't expect such an aggressive Webber. He felt he had some "Divine Right" to win, and that was wrong. But that doesn't excuse Webber's excessive aggression imo, he was probably thinking about letting Vettel through so easily in Malaysia, which cost him a GP win. So he reacted a little too strongly, he went from one extreme of being too sloppy with his mirrors to the opposite of being too aggressive. He invited trouble by initially squeezing Vettel who was clearly going to pull alongside and have the inside for the corner, and you can see Christian Horner, on the pit wall, shouting "move, move" as Vettel came alongside. Takes two to tango I think wink.gif

Two mature drivers would have given each other room, Webber took the room away from Vettel, and Vettel tried to take it back too quickly. I am not sure if he thought he was past Webber (the mirrors aren't great for that), or if he was actually trying to squeeze Webber over to the right of the track. Or did he hit a bump and lose control or something? The track always looked quite bad there. To me, it looks like the first option, he thought he'd made the move.

I understand Vettel's annoyance after so many car failures but he should have kept his head cool. I think he made a costly mistake, and he could miss the points in the end more than Webber. Last year he was new to the team and maybe he had to prove something to them but this season should be different. Today he had 2nd place in his pocket and he could finish ahead of Hamilton and Alonso, can you ask for more? Of course you can but a valuable quality many great champions possess is cautiousness. Ok, we are all humans.

I too understand Webber's annoyance after the team told him to select fuel saving mode and a lap later Vettel try to pass him in a quite wreckless manner. Webber was leading both the race and the Championship, he was fighting for glory and he deserved it. A sensible team would have managed the situation in a different way. Webber right or wrong thought the team was just trying to make Vettel win the race no matter how, he was ready por the pass but he was not ready for making it easy, like any other racer in his place he did no wrong.

What I don't understand is Red Bull's lack of forethought. They had a 1-2 in their pockets and they gave it to McLaren for free and for no reason. Even if either of the drivers could have handled the situation in a more *mature* way the most costly mistake was theirs. If they lose the constructor or the driver's championship they will miss the points either way. They had two annoyed drivers and they collided on track. I've been reading latest news on autosport.com and that's how I see it. You wouldn't expect both drivers to stay cool given the circumstances I stated above.

As

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Webbo. A perfect race until Vettel... Button lost with Hami so will never DOD for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could I politely ask what the 2 Alonso votes are for this weekend?

I like Alonso. I've given him 2 DOD votes already this season myself.

I'm just hard pushed to see how he merits one this weekend.

Certainly he started in 12th and ended in 8th after passing Sutil, Kobay and Petrov(ish), but if it was Massa who missed out on Q3 and then only got a Ferrari up to 8th, I have no doubt people would be pouring scorn on the little Brazilian.

Kubica managed to beat both Ferraris in a worse car (personally I think the Renault is not up to the Ferraris standards, but others may disagree).

Even if I couldn't give a vote to the top 3, I'd vote Kubi.

Now - I think that was a fairly mature and polite post. I hope we can retain that standard?

EDIT - having just rewatched the race, I remembered that Alonso took two places on the first pit stop.

Then Vettel took himself out.

So basically the only overtake Alonso pulled off was on Petrov.

Edited by adamstrags

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could I politely ask what the 2 Alonso votes are for this weekend?

I like Alonso. I've given him 2 DOD votes already this season myself.

I'm just hard pushed to see how he merits one this weekend.

Certainly he started in 12th and ended in 8th after passing Sutil, Kobay and Petrov(ish), but if it was Massa who missed out on Q3 and then only got a Ferrari up to 8th, I have no doubt people would be pouring scorn on the little Brazilian.

Kubica managed to beat both Ferraris in a worse car (personally I think the Renault is not up to the Ferraris standards, but others may disagree).

Even if I couldn't give a vote to the top 3, I'd vote Kubi.

Now - I think that was a fairly mature and polite post. I hope we can retain that standard?

I think in this track the reno was better than the ferraris. By the way i can´t understand who voted Button since he fight and lost with Hamilton...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think in this track the reno was better than the ferraris. By the way i can´t understand who voted Button since he fight and lost with Hamilton...

I can't understand who voted for Hamilton, just because Red Bull gives you wings? eusa_think.gif

Or it was Vettel gives you wins?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think in this track the reno was better than the ferraris. By the way i can´t understand who voted Button since he fight and lost with Hamilton...

I don't think the Renault was better than the Ferrari at all myself. I think the drivers just did a better job over the weekend. Massa never sets the track alight and Alonso didn't make Q3.

As for Button - I'm surprised he's leading the DOD vote. I make him third after Webber and Hamilton.

He pulled off two overtakes at the fast end of the race. One on Hamilton, one on Schumi.

Granted he also got overtaken by those two driver, so that makes them just about even if you ask me (only seperated by their qually laps).

Edited by adamstrags

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Red bull should sit Vettel out for the next race - the way any good coach/team would treat a player wwho acted that selfishly! They need to teach him how to grow up a little and think a bit more about the team! What a stupid! stupid! stupid! move. Yes vettel you are the crazy one! Now as this story unfolds it sounds like the team are trying to protect him too.

Make Vettel sit out the next race and use your reserve driver instead!!

Although i agree with this one, in reality i don't think this would be a smart move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone who thinks the crash was anything but Vettel's fault needs their head examined, IMO. Webber doesn't have to jump out of anyones way, where were the blue flags? HE'S RACING VETTEL FOR A RACE WIN AND WDC. Webber went straight, Vettel turns into him, 100% Vettel's fault, and the kid needs to learn the world doesn't revolve around him. He's as big of a tosser as Hamilton was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hamilton. If not for his first-rate driving, then for his solemn podium attitude. He knew Webber won that race.

Speaking of which, I don't blame either Red Bull driver. Yes, they're employed by Red Bull, and one might say they're supposed to be team players (and that's a valid view), but there's more than one championship going on out there. The drivers have to also consider the driver's championship and a teammate is your rival just as any other driver is your rival. For a driver, teams come and go, but your standing in the driver's championship stays with you forever.

Vettel was feeling racy, pulled a good move and Mark didn't budge an inch. Both had a right to do what they did (of course I'm going to ignore that when my turn to argue against Webber comes around ;) ).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone who thinks the crash was anything but Vettel's fault needs their head examined, IMO. Webber doesn't have to jump out of anyones way, where were the blue flags? HE'S RACING VETTEL FOR A RACE WIN AND WDC. Webber went straight, Vettel turns into him, 100% Vettel's fault, and the kid needs to learn the world doesn't revolve around him. He's as big of a tosser as Hamilton was.

Bah. Look at Seb's steering wheel on the onboard. He didn't turn into Webbo. Perhaps he was correcting for a bump on the circuit? Things get twitchy whilst racing an inch apart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hamilton. If not for his first-rate driving, then for his solemn podium attitude. He knew Webber won that race.

Speaking of which, I don't blame either Red Bull driver. Yes, they're employed by Red Bull, and one might say they're supposed to be team players (and that's a valid view), but there's more than one championship going on out there. The drivers have to also consider the driver's championship and a teammate is your rival just as any other driver is your rival. For a driver, teams come and go, but your standing in the driver's championship stays with you forever.

Vettel was feeling racy, pulled a good move and Mark didn't budge an inch. Both had a right to do what they did (of course I'm going to ignore that when my turn to argue against Webber comes around ;) ).

Couldn't agree more. That's exactly how I read Hamilton's reaction to this win. He knew that to jump up and down would have somehow been to ignore the events up front. He's not that insensitive. Is it me, or does Hamilton look the most confident and calm out of everyone? There seems to be some sort of inner confidence that all the others lack. He is driving beautifully, has a brilliant team mate who shows mutual respect and his team seem to be slowly chipping away ant Red Bull's fragile lead.

As for Christian Horner's job of managing Sebastien and Mark? Look at the way Christian shook his head in disgust on the prat perch. Looked way too animated for me. That was for Dietrich. Inside, I bet he was thinking, 'no big deal', because let's face it, it wasn't. Two drivers, the fastest, your boys, leading the championship, both hungry. Chances of them shoulder barging at some point in the season? Odds on. If I were Christian I would be glad it happened there and then. Let's get it out of the way whilst we are still in control of the championship and we don't have to play any tactical points games. At this point, all Christian has to do is sit them down and ask that they give each other more room when next going wheel to wheel. Play them the video of Lewis and Jenson, who were supreme (and who would have no doubt stenghthened their relationship, right there). That's how to dice. But then Jenson and Lewis didn't look angry going into the race. Seb did. He was way too fed up with Mark not having gremlins and it was always going to come out on track. Come out it did.

As for the incident, 50-50 in my book. Seb was quicker, Mark knew it but wasn't in the mood to let it slip away to easily; that was his fault, he should have moved over six inches and given Seb some room. The move was done. Seb should have known that he was going to have to track a straight line all the way down to the corner. He shouldn't have moved to the right, but to be fair to him, we are talking fractions. Had mark given him space, no contact would have happened. As it is, they were just too close to each other and they need not have been. That's all Christian need to tell them. Race but give room. End of story. No shifts of power, or preferrential treatment. No side taking. Just get on with it. One of you win the drivers title, both of you win the constructors, but don't crash or we let them Brit boys in and that shouldn't happen.

Michael will bitch about race pace and rightly so. Half a second off in qualifying translated to 1.3 in the race. Not good enough. Solace taken form the fact that they seem to be third best now but both him and Nico will want more. I get this feeling that they'll get it. The Merc has great grip, it just needs more speed. I think they can fiddle with their aero efficiency to get that balance.

Great race. Good to see four genuine race win protagonists, all in the same camera shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So basically the only overtake Alonso pulled off was on Petrov.

The only guy who overtakes anything is Hamilton. Most everyone else just sits and waits for the car in front to move out of their way.

As for Button - I'm surprised he's leading the DOD vote. I make him third after Webber and Hamilton.

He pulled off two overtakes at the fast end of the race. One on Hamilton, one on Schumi.

Granted he also got overtaken by those two driver, so that makes them just about even if you ask me (only seperated by their qually laps).

I think Button looks impressive because he and his engineer pulled off a slightly cheeky manoeuvre where he didn't save as much fuel as Hamilton, hence suddenly catching up for a few laps before being told to save more and then falling back again as in the rest of the race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Button looks impressive because he and his engineer pulled off a slightly cheeky manoeuvre where he didn't save as much fuel as Hamilton, hence suddenly catching up for a few laps before being told to save more and then falling back again as in the rest of the race.

There's more than a little truth to that BUT he still gave Hamilton a something to think about once he'd made up the gap. Had he just sat there under Hamilton's wing I wouldn't have been surprised, but he did more than that and credit is due to both of them. Good racing, entertaining for us, fair and above board.

I'm not saying Button was DOD for me. As I said before, I place him third after Weber then Hamilton.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couldn't agree more. That's exactly how I read Hamilton's reaction to this win. He knew that to jump up and down would have somehow been to ignore the events up front. He's not that insensitive. Is it me, or does Hamilton look the most confident and calm out of everyone? There seems to be some sort of inner confidence that all the others lack. He is driving beautifully, has a brilliant team mate who shows mutual respect and his team seem to be slowly chipping away ant Red Bull's fragile lead.

Totally agree, Hamilton has matured. He really is calm. In an interview for BBC forum after the race Lewis was really chilled and confident. All the pundit's were saying they are amazed at how relaxed he is. Definitely a good thing.

The only guy who overtakes anything is Hamilton. Most everyone else just sits and waits for the car in front to move out of their way.

I think Button looks impressive because he and his engineer pulled off a slightly cheeky manoeuvre where he didn't save as much fuel as Hamilton, hence suddenly catching up for a few laps before being told to save more and then falling back again as in the rest of the race.

Yeah totally, a lot of other drivers just hope for the car in front to disappear during the pit stops, whereas Hamilton does try and overtake which is rare.

Agree with what you say about Button too. Before the Button/Hamilton fight Lewis's team radio came on saying "you need to save fuel, you are both being told to do this." A couple of laps later Button overtakes, obviously a change in car performance and as soon as Hamilton changes his engine revs he manages to re take Button. And everyone knows that McLaren have had a team rule that says fight all you want up to the last third of the race, then stay put. I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall at the McLaren debrief :D

There's more than a little truth to that BUT he still gave Hamilton a something to think about once he'd made up the gap. Had he just sat there under Hamilton's wing I wouldn't have been surprised, but he did more than that and credit is due to both of them. Good racing, entertaining for us, fair and above board.

I'm not saying Button was DOD for me. As I said before, I place him third after Weber then Hamilton.

I'm sorry but Button would not have taken that place under normal conditions. They were told to save fuel, turn down the revs, why would Lewis think Button was going to do that? Both of them were supposed to be protecting the brakes/lowering revs/saving fuel. Also if you actually look at how Button overtook him, Lewis was slowing much earlier than normal as to save fuel and brakes. Button for some reason bombed down the outside and slammed on the brakes, nice way to save the car bro! rolleyes.gif

Having said that, apart from this obvious cheeky moment, I think Button had a solid drive. I know the Merc was much much slower but was nice to see Button get his finger out and overtake Schumacher.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was Hamilton calm? He didn't look calm to me, he looked extremely deflated after a lucky yet still deserved victory. I can't imagine why, I'm not sure I buy the "he felt bad for Webber" line. Nor do I think it was because Button passed him in the last third of the race, though that was something which he probably didn't like. Perhaps it was because he thought he'd been told to save fuel, and thought Button must have been told something else (when in fact Button had actually been told the same?).

Another option is something one of the BBC pundits suggested: it's the first race he had won without his Dad being there. Certainly it seemed like when Hamilton and his father split from having a management relationship, it seemed like it was not on particularly good terms from some of the comments Lewis was making at the time. I wonder if all is well in the Hamilton camp. Or perhaps being caught "hooning" in Australia was a catalyst for a more mature approach from Lewis?

Either way, something is either very right with Lewis Hamilton at the moment (inner calm), or something is very wrong. I just can't work out which.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bah. Look at Seb's steering wheel on the onboard. He didn't turn into Webbo. Perhaps he was correcting for a bump on the circuit? Things get twitchy whilst racing an inch apart.

His steering wheel clearly moves towards Webber... He wasn't correcting for bumps he flat out admitted in one of the quotes I read that he was moving over to brake on a better line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was Hamilton calm? He didn't look calm to me, he looked extremely deflated after a lucky yet still deserved victory. I can't imagine why, I'm not sure I buy the "he felt bad for Webber" line. Nor do I think it was because Button passed him in the last third of the race, though that was something which he probably didn't like. Perhaps it was because he thought he'd been told to save fuel, and thought Button must have been told something else (when in fact Button had actually been told the same?).

Another option is something one of the BBC pundits suggested: it's the first race he had won without his Dad being there. Certainly it seemed like when Hamilton and his father split from having a management relationship, it seemed like it was not on particularly good terms from some of the comments Lewis was making at the time. I wonder if all is well in the Hamilton camp. Or perhaps being caught "hooning" in Australia was a catalyst for a more mature approach from Lewis?

Either way, something is either very right with Lewis Hamilton at the moment (inner calm), or something is very wrong. I just can't work out which.

I thought Hamilton was calm, and has shown calmness over this weekend. And with the guys from BBC saying it also, they know a bit more what Lewis is like when the camera's are not on him so I'm guessing that this calmness is real and a good thing.

I think his lack of enthusiasm could definitely be down to what you say about his lucky victory and Button, perhaps a bit of both? Or the fact that the only way he and McLaren can win this season is to rely on Red Bull stuffing it up with unreliability and driver error? I don't buy what EJ came up with about his dad not being there. I don't think that had anything to do with Lewis's demeanour on the podium. And when Lewis was interviewed he never mentioned he was sad that his dad wasn't there, he just kept saying happy 50th, or this race is for him. If he was sad why not just say it, it wouldn't have effected anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could I politely ask what the 2 Alonso votes are for this weekend?

I like Alonso. I've given him 2 DOD votes already this season myself.

you don't have to try too hard to guess from where those two votes came from...

Edited by Jean Todt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Either way, something is either very right with Lewis Hamilton at the moment (inner calm), or something is very wrong. I just can't work out which.

:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now