mikathegreat2

Dod Turkey

   33 members have voted

  1. 1. DOD Turkey??

    • Hamilton
      14
    • Button
      12
    • Webber
      11
    • Schumacher
      4
    • Rosberg
      0
    • Kubica
      0
    • Massa
      1
    • Nando
      2
    • Sutil
      0
    • Koba
      0
    • Other
      1

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

81 posts in this topic

Actually. I think James is more a Ferrari fan, Shaliq. I'm the biased one around here and not afraid to say it.

Actually, if Button screws up then I'm the first to have a go!

Vettel/Webber. Racing incident. Mark seems to believe in himself lately and Seb wanted the position. Steve's right. Seb has to quit being the likeable dude around the paddock or he'll end up another Massa.

If you ask me, he's behaving like a spoilt kid and how Marko and Horner can take his side in this is mind-boggling. Webber was in the middle of the track and Seb slung one down the inside. He moved to the braking area too early and drove into Mark. Major rookie error. No way did Webber have time to avoid. There are also very strong rumours that MW was told to turn the wick down but the 'wunderkind' wasn't. Either way, it was a monstrously, idiotic incident and Webber knows where the beans fall now. He's on his own. I also don't want to hear any more Sh#t from anyone about JB getting blown off by Hambone - it won't run. Check your PMs, m'duck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This post is only for they well know who.

I remember a few forum members, usual suspects, complaining about others voting Alonso for DoD in Bahrain because as they saw it, he won the race just because of pure luck.

/rantita

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Red bull should sit Vettel out for the next race - the way any good coach/team would treat a player wwho acted that selfishly! They need to teach him how to grow up a little and think a bit more about the team! What a stupid! stupid! stupid! move. Yes vettel you are the crazy one! Now as this story unfolds it sounds like the team are trying to protect him too.

Make Vettel sit out the next race and use your reserve driver instead!!

Have you completely lost your mind? I assume you have'nt taken your pills yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couldn't agree more. That's exactly how I read Hamilton's reaction to this win. He knew that to jump up and down would have somehow been to ignore the events up front. He's not that insensitive. Is it me, or does Hamilton look the most confident and calm out of everyone? There seems to be some sort of inner confidence that all the others lack. He is driving beautifully, has a brilliant team mate who shows mutual respect and his team seem to be slowly chipping away ant Red Bull's fragile lead.

As for Christian Horner's job of managing Sebastien and Mark? Look at the way Christian shook his head in disgust on the prat perch. Looked way too animated for me. That was for Dietrich. Inside, I bet he was thinking, 'no big deal', because let's face it, it wasn't. Two drivers, the fastest, your boys, leading the championship, both hungry. Chances of them shoulder barging at some point in the season? Odds on. If I were Christian I would be glad it happened there and then. Let's get it out of the way whilst we are still in control of the championship and we don't have to play any tactical points games. At this point, all Christian has to do is sit them down and ask that they give each other more room when next going wheel to wheel. Play them the video of Lewis and Jenson, who were supreme (and who would have no doubt stenghthened their relationship, right there). That's how to dice. But then Jenson and Lewis didn't look angry going into the race. Seb did. He was way too fed up with Mark not having gremlins and it was always going to come out on track. Come out it did.

As for the incident, 50-50 in my book. Seb was quicker, Mark knew it but wasn't in the mood to let it slip away to easily; that was his fault, he should have moved over six inches and given Seb some room. The move was done. Seb should have known that he was going to have to track a straight line all the way down to the corner. He shouldn't have moved to the right, but to be fair to him, we are talking fractions. Had mark given him space, no contact would have happened. As it is, they were just too close to each other and they need not have been. That's all Christian need to tell them. Race but give room. End of story. No shifts of power, or preferrential treatment. No side taking. Just get on with it. One of you win the drivers title, both of you win the constructors, but don't crash or we let them Brit boys in and that shouldn't happen.

One of the most sensible post you'll ever read, and thanks for the valueble contribution too Mike :thbup:

Edited by BradSpeedMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I were Mark Webber I´ll make 2 decisions:

1st. I´m out of Red Bull next year so I must find new team urgent.

2nd. After watched Vettel moving his pointing finger around his year I would like to have a "very personal" conversation with the kid; it will last 2 rounds and he will return to the motorhme with all his teeth in a bag! And then tell mr. Marko to go to hell!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This post is only for they well know who.

I remember a few forum members, usual suspects, complaining about others voting Alonso for DoD in Bahrain because as they saw it, he won the race just because of pure luck.

/rantita

so you did vote for Alonso for Turkey.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couldn't agree more. That's exactly how I read Hamilton's reaction to this win. He knew that to jump up and down would have somehow been to ignore the events up front. He's not that insensitive. Is it me, or does Hamilton look the most confident and calm out of everyone? There seems to be some sort of inner confidence that all the others lack. He is driving beautifully, has a brilliant team mate who shows mutual respect and his team seem to be slowly chipping away ant Red Bull's fragile lead.

As for Christian Horner's job of managing Sebastien and Mark? Look at the way Christian shook his head in disgust on the prat perch. Looked way too animated for me. That was for Dietrich. Inside, I bet he was thinking, 'no big deal', because let's face it, it wasn't. Two drivers, the fastest, your boys, leading the championship, both hungry. Chances of them shoulder barging at some point in the season? Odds on. If I were Christian I would be glad it happened there and then. Let's get it out of the way whilst we are still in control of the championship and we don't have to play any tactical points games. At this point, all Christian has to do is sit them down and ask that they give each other more room when next going wheel to wheel. Play them the video of Lewis and Jenson, who were supreme (and who would have no doubt stenghthened their relationship, right there). That's how to dice. But then Jenson and Lewis didn't look angry going into the race. Seb did. He was way too fed up with Mark not having gremlins and it was always going to come out on track. Come out it did.

As for the incident, 50-50 in my book. Seb was quicker, Mark knew it but wasn't in the mood to let it slip away to easily; that was his fault, he should have moved over six inches and given Seb some room. The move was done. Seb should have known that he was going to have to track a straight line all the way down to the corner. He shouldn't have moved to the right, but to be fair to him, we are talking fractions. Had mark given him space, no contact would have happened. As it is, they were just too close to each other and they need not have been. That's all Christian need to tell them. Race but give room. End of story. No shifts of power, or preferrential treatment. No side taking. Just get on with it. One of you win the drivers title, both of you win the constructors, but don't crash or we let them Brit boys in and that shouldn't happen.

Michael will bitch about race pace and rightly so. Half a second off in qualifying translated to 1.3 in the race. Not good enough. Solace taken form the fact that they seem to be third best now but both him and Nico will want more. I get this feeling that they'll get it. The Merc has great grip, it just needs more speed. I think they can fiddle with their aero efficiency to get that balance.

Great race. Good to see four genuine race win protagonists, all in the same camera shot.

now...everyone read this and Shaadaaap...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so you did vote for Alonso for Turkey.....

I see, you can't read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's more than a little truth to that BUT he still gave Hamilton a something to think about once he'd made up the gap. Had he just sat there under Hamilton's wing I wouldn't have been surprised, but he did more than that and credit is due to both of them. Good racing, entertaining for us, fair and above board.

I'm not saying Button was DOD for me. As I said before, I place him third after Weber then Hamilton.

Yeah for sure I think Button did a good job. He and Hamilton both did well. It's just that Jenson's catching Lewis up was probably down to different rates of fuel saving etc.

Yeah totally, a lot of other drivers just hope for the car in front to disappear during the pit stops, whereas Hamilton does try and overtake which is rare.

Agree with what you say about Button too. Before the Button/Hamilton fight Lewis's team radio came on saying "you need to save fuel, you are both being told to do this." A couple of laps later Button overtakes, obviously a change in car performance and as soon as Hamilton changes his engine revs he manages to re take Button. And everyone knows that McLaren have had a team rule that says fight all you want up to the last third of the race, then stay put. I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall at the McLaren debrief :D

Right you are. I reckon Lewis was basically pretty happy - I remember him joking in his post-race interviews and looking pretty relaxed and happy to me. Lewis was definitely going to want some explanations from Jense and his race engineer about how much fuel was being saved though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I were Mark Webber I´ll make 2 decisions:

1st. I´m out of Red Bull next year so I must find new team urgent.

2nd. After watched Vettel moving his pointing finger around his year I would like to have a "very personal" conversation with the kid; it will last 2 rounds and he will return to the motorhme with all his teeth in a bag! And then tell mr. Marko to go to hell!

Good post

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ole Peeps

A lot has been said about the Red Bull clash, some say it was a 50-50, some say Webber should have given Vettel the room as he had the momentum, or it was an inevitable racing incident. Here's my take on the situtation.

Webber has been in great form over these last few races, really answering his critics (I've been one of them) in the best possible way by being fast and controlled on the race track. He's put Vettel in the shade a little and at Turkey he did it again in quali and for the majority of the race. After quali Vettel looked completely fed up. Now this could be as a result of the mechanical problem he experienced during quali, but I bet some of his mood was down to the fact that Webber had beaten him again.

During the race Webber was told to go into fuel save mode by the team, which he did. Don't know if the team passed the same message onto Vettel. Anyway, Vettel gets the run Webber on out of turns 9 and 10 and through the kink at 11. Webber sees this and takes a defensive line on the left hand side of the track out of 11, leaving a cars width to his left but the majority of the track to his right. Vettel follows him through the kink and makes his move taking the space on the left, he has more speed and gets alongside Webber. Then, before he has fully passed Webber, Vettel decides to move to the right to get a better braking and a better line into the approaching corner. The two cars are only centimetres apart now and so any move by either driver would be a certain accident as the other would have no time to react. Vettel does it anyway and gets spun around and ends his race then and there.

100% Vettel to blame. Those who say Webber should have given him space are talking crap, this includes the Red Bull Team. Webber was perfectly entitled to place his car where he did and then hold his line, staright and true, which he did. If Webber had of moved to the right and given Vettel a better line into the corner he would have psychologically conceded everything to him. The next time a similar scenario occurs in a race Vettel would have that knowledge that his team mate will capitulate. Well, now he knows that Webber will hold his line and not give way; vitally important for Webber.

Why didn't Vettel take the track on the right? He had the momentum, he would have passed Webber before the braking area for the corner. Button did this to Schumi earlier in the race from a worse position than Vettel was in.

Of course it's not he first time that Vettel has used his car in this fashion. Remember how he moved across on Hamilton down the pit lane in China. He was also the cause for Webber going off at that race because at the final restart he charged down the inside of Hamilton at final corner, Hamilton reacted to this and moved to his right, which in turn forced Webber off the course. Hamilton took the flak for that one but it was Vettel who started it in the first place. Maybe he'll learn his lesson from this; Vettel's lost points and chalked up a DNF, Webber salvaged a third place and still leads the championship.

I don't like the noises coming out of Red Bull regarding the accident. It appears that Webber is taking the hit for this one internally. Wrong. Webber has done some stupid moves in the past, and he's been man enough to hold his hand up on every occassion. During the winners press conference whilst Button was talking, Webber and Hamilton were having a chat and obiviously it was regarding the clash. Webber was using his hands to show Hamilton what happened; he did the slipstream, then getting alongside and then the clash. His face showed his surprise and the manoeuvre.

I picked Vettel for the championship at the beginning of the season and he may well still achieve this, however, after this and his other incidents I'm liking him less and I may not be as happy if he does lift the title.

Tchau.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I picked Vettel for the championship at the beginning of the season and he may well still achieve this, however, after this and his other incidents I'm liking him less and I may not be as happy if he does lift the title.

Yes, he can be both the wonderkid or the monsterkid. His overtaking on Webber was a bit too much, he thought Webber was a backmarker? It was a bit like Alguersuari overtaking Chandhok with blue falgs in Spain, but Webber was leading the race and the WDC. People blamed Alguersuari and rightly so, now who blame Webber? Horner, Marko...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ole Peeps

...

Tchau.

Good post, I agree with it, mostly. Although I can also see why Red Bull, from their perspective as team bosses trying to win a WCC, would be annoyed with Webber for squeezing Vettel and inviting an accident.

Here is Martin Brundle's take, which I fully agree with: http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8714410.stm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ole Peeps

A lot has been said about the Red Bull clash, some say it was a 50-50, some say Webber should have given Vettel the room as he had the momentum, or it was an inevitable racing incident. Here's my take on the situtation.

Webber has been in great form over these last few races, really answering his critics (I've been one of them) in the best possible way by being fast and controlled on the race track. He's put Vettel in the shade a little and at Turkey he did it again in quali and for the majority of the race. After quali Vettel looked completely fed up. Now this could be as a result of the mechanical problem he experienced during quali, but I bet some of his mood was down to the fact that Webber had beaten him again.

During the race Webber was told to go into fuel save mode by the team, which he did. Don't know if the team passed the same message onto Vettel. Anyway, Vettel gets the run Webber on out of turns 9 and 10 and through the kink at 11. Webber sees this and takes a defensive line on the left hand side of the track out of 11, leaving a cars width to his left but the majority of the track to his right. Vettel follows him through the kink and makes his move taking the space on the left, he has more speed and gets alongside Webber. Then, before he has fully passed Webber, Vettel decides to move to the right to get a better braking and a better line into the approaching corner. The two cars are only centimetres apart now and so any move by either driver would be a certain accident as the other would have no time to react. Vettel does it anyway and gets spun around and ends his race then and there.

100% Vettel to blame. Those who say Webber should have given him space are talking crap, this includes the Red Bull Team. Webber was perfectly entitled to place his car where he did and then hold his line, staright and true, which he did. If Webber had of moved to the right and given Vettel a better line into the corner he would have psychologically conceded everything to him. The next time a similar scenario occurs in a race Vettel would have that knowledge that his team mate will capitulate. Well, now he knows that Webber will hold his line and not give way; vitally important for Webber.

Why didn't Vettel take the track on the right? He had the momentum, he would have passed Webber before the braking area for the corner. Button did this to Schumi earlier in the race from a worse position than Vettel was in.

Of course it's not he first time that Vettel has used his car in this fashion. Remember how he moved across on Hamilton down the pit lane in China. He was also the cause for Webber going off at that race because at the final restart he charged down the inside of Hamilton at final corner, Hamilton reacted to this and moved to his right, which in turn forced Webber off the course. Hamilton took the flak for that one but it was Vettel who started it in the first place. Maybe he'll learn his lesson from this; Vettel's lost points and chalked up a DNF, Webber salvaged a third place and still leads the championship.

I don't like the noises coming out of Red Bull regarding the accident. It appears that Webber is taking the hit for this one internally. Wrong. Webber has done some stupid moves in the past, and he's been man enough to hold his hand up on every occassion. During the winners press conference whilst Button was talking, Webber and Hamilton were having a chat and obiviously it was regarding the clash. Webber was using his hands to show Hamilton what happened; he did the slipstream, then getting alongside and then the clash. His face showed his surprise and the manoeuvre.

I picked Vettel for the championship at the beginning of the season and he may well still achieve this, however, after this and his other incidents I'm liking him less and I may not be as happy if he does lift the title.

Tchau.

I agree with everything apart from the bold. Look at the replay again; Webber may not have moved his steering wheel but he was already tracking a very slight diagonal path to his left. He didn't need to move to the left because he was already moving in that direction. It's easy to aportion blame. Surprisingly for you, who is normally very objective, you are quick to blame our Sebastian. I don't see it that straight forward. To me, there are two crucial points to be made. Firstly, even if they were racing and were allowed to do so, Sebastian's position on the track was clear for Mark to see, it wasn't a sudden surprise and it was Mark who was in control of their destiny. He decided that he would get as close as he did. If his primary instinct would have been to play the team game and think of the bigger picture, he would have given Sebastian room, but he didn't. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not blaming Mark for that way of thinking, in fact, it shows him to be the racer that he is, but ultimately it was him who had greater control over the outcome of the move. Yes, Sebastian moved to the right, but he was trying to set himself up for the left hander. He didn't jink or do something unpredictable, he just moved slightly. The blame on Sebastian is being exacerbated by the fact that Mark was so close. Compare that with the room and respect that Jenson and Lewis gave each other. Secondly, and crucially, we need to know whether Sebastian was given the fuel save instruction aswell. If he was, then he is very much to blame because he would have known that Mark was easy prey if he chose to ignore it and maintain a richer fuel mixture for himself. It's just plain unsporting. Mark had earned his position. It's unfair opportunism and immaturely ignoring a team order (ooh, yes, I said those dirty words, but let's get real guys and girls; Austria '02 was a long time ago and sensibility should prevail in these situations). We won't be privvy to that information, unfortunately.

In conclusion, it is not for us to decide on the blame without the full facts, because in my second point above, that fact is crucial.

Good post, I agree with it, mostly. Although I can also see why Red Bull, from their perspective as team bosses trying to win a WCC, would be annoyed with Webber for squeezing Vettel and inviting an accident.

Here is Martin Brundle's take, which I fully agree with: http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8714410.stm

I agree with Brundle, in the main, but I don't agree that the tension will spill over to Canada. Horner is experienced at dealing with a front running team and the drivers within it (Arden). He'll tell Mark and Seb' what he wants and what he doesn't. Mark and Seb' are too clever to ignore it, I believe. This is 'corporate tow-the-line 2010', unfortunately.

*Gramma edditt

Edited by dribbler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you completely lost your mind? I assume you have'nt taken your pills yet.

HA :) thats pretty funny.

I do think that the team has to stop treating Vettel like he is the anointed one.

The way Vettel acted after that incident reminds me of an 11 year old kid when he does not get his way and starts stomping his feet and calling people names..etc. Completely unprofessional and totally childish behavior.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HA :) thats pretty funny.

I do think that the team has to stop treating Vettel like he is the anointed one.

The way Vettel acted after that incident reminds me of an 11 year old kid when he does not get his way and starts stomping his feet and calling people names..etc. Completely unprofessional and totally childish behavior.

He's young...he'll learn... you won't believe the mistakes I made when I was young. :P That's IF you think it's his fault, which I don't

glad you did'nt take my comment seriously, sorta tongue in cheek :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those who say Webber should have given him space are talking crap, this includes the Red Bull Team. Webber was perfectly entitled to place his car where he did and then hold his line, staright and true, which he did. If Webber had of moved to the right and given Vettel a better line into the corner he would have psychologically conceded everything to him.

That is exactly the problem.....Vettel WAS AHEAD of Webber at point of contact. Webber knew exactly what he had to do, which the arrogant b#####d did'nt

Edited by BradSpeedMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been great to read all your opinions, because after watching the race I wasn't sure I could see clearly what happened. I think that Vettel could have backed off and tried again on the next lap, and that he was overly agressive all of a sudden, but I also think that it would have been possible for Webber to avoid the collision after it was too late for Vettel to do anything, he had a lot of the track for himself. I quite agree with Mike and Dribbler, and it was actually fun to see such a racing incident, we always talk about them but they rarely happen. I like to see people race, and I wasn't even p**sed after Vettel took himself out of the race, even though he's my favourite driver and I didn't think that it was 100% his fault, you have to learn sometime and it's better sooner than later.

Bottom line: yes, pretty controversial, but exciting. As long as the drivers draw some conclusions from it, then it's all good. Screw the team perspective, let people race. (Or is any of you in control of an F1 team and very concerned about how they do in the WCC? :P )

The only thing I don't like is the talks about RBR favouritism, because they could actually be true, and I think that at this point in time they shouldn't care who gets them the WDC as long as they get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bottom line: yes, pretty controversial, but exciting. As long as the drivers draw some conclusions from it, then it's all good. Screw the team perspective, let people race. (Or is any of you in control of an F1 team and very concerned about how they do in the WCC? tongue.gif )

Problem is teams will draw some conclusions from it no doubt. sad.gif

The only thing I don't like is the talks about RBR favouritism, because they could actually be true, and I think that at this point in time they shouldn't care who gets them the WDC as long as they get it.

Yep.

Edited by AleHop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

EDIT - having just rewatched the race, I remembered that Alonso took two places on the first pit stop.

Then Vettel took himself out.

So basically the only overtake Alonso pulled off was on Petrov.

And he damaged Petrov race while doing that so the only pass wasn't even a clean out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

His steering wheel clearly moves towards Webber... He wasn't correcting for bumps he flat out admitted in one of the quotes I read that he was moving over to brake on a better line.

I can't seem to get this to insert properly, but hit this link at metacafe and watch the onboards at around 0:39. I see his wheel jinking right and left rapidly, as is consistent with correcting for a bumpy surface. I don't see him jinking 'clearly' right at the point of impact.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4690715/vettel_webber_crash/

That being said, it's possible that, once alongside Webber he eased the car over right in small moves, thinking that Webber would see this and give him room. That's pretty normal when you've already passed someone (as Vettel had passed Webber, using the half-car ahead standard to identify a completed pass where the other driver must give way). If this is what happened then it's clearly Webber's fault for not giving way as the rules say he should. Clearly Vettel was ahead at the moment of impact.

See, the problem with apportioning blame here is this: Did Mark impede a legal passing move by not giving way to a car that had already passed him or did Vettel cause an incident by crashing into Mark? The line there is really hard to find, so why bother with it? As Steve has so wisely said 50/50...racing incident. Move on.

Edited by Autumnpuma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50/50...racing incident. Move on.

yeppers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't seem to get this to insert properly, but hit this link at metacafe and watch the onboards at around 0:39. I see his wheel jinking right and left rapidly, as is consistent with correcting for a bumpy surface. I don't see him jinking 'clearly' right at the point of impact.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4690715/vettel_webber_crash/

That being said, it's possible that, once alongside Webber he eased the car over right in small moves, thinking that Webber would see this and give him room. That's pretty normal when you've already passed someone (as Vettel had passed Webber, using the half-car ahead standard to identify a completed pass where the other driver must give way). If this is what happened then it's clearly Webber's fault for not giving way as the rules say he should. Clearly Vettel was ahead at the moment of impact.

See, the problem with apportioning blame here is this: Did Mark impede a legal passing move by not giving way to a car that had already passed him or did Vettel cause an incident by crashing into Mark? The line there is really hard to find, so why bother with it? As Steve has so wisely said 50/50...racing incident. Move on.

Ok I am moving on and I agree with most of you post, jsut want to add this, when looking at the replay of the crash pay attention at the white line that limit the circuit and notice how that line is getting closer to Webber meaning that he was leaning toward it and at teh same time reducing the space Vettel needed to complete the pass, the reason why Vettel turn sharply to the right was the contact between the tires, before that point you can see Webber moving the steering wheel toward the left right before the contact, this is better appreciated if you look at it frame by frame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now