freaky2

Valencia Gp

338 posts in this topic

Why are you all the time talking about Alonso? I can't care less about him today. His race was screwed, others were luckier but the that was not the problem. You're hidding what happened today and what can be even worse if they penalize half the grid to make Ferrari happy.

They are not going to penalise half the grid to make Ferrari happy. They are going to perhaps penalise half the grid for speeding and breaking the rules.

This is the bit you seem unable to differentiate from.

We're talking about Alonso because, yet again, he was crying under his Nomex hoodie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're talking about Alonso because, yet again, he was crying under his Nomex hoodie.

Yep. Alonso is crying, Hamilton is laughing.

Great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did Button get a lap record today? He was fastest on a 38.766, and Massa had it at 38-something in 2008....???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They were ahead of the safety car, and we all know that that safety car is about as fast as a 1982 Lada. They basically scooted around, pitted, then caught back up to the safety car, as it has to wait on the first place car getting behind them, as you know.

I guess they have dropped the closing of the pit lane in preference for the delta time for the SC laps, which is a +/- thing.

And as we ALLLLLLLL know, Hamilton was adjudged to have not actually been infront of the safety car at the safety car line (looked a close run thing). It actually looked from the high up shot that the SC was going to cross the white line to get on track ahead of Hamilton....I would have thought they had to follow the same rule of not crossing the line like the race cars. It is over her in lil ol' NZ, but then we're sheep shaggers, so what would we know?

I watch the FIA live timing and Kobi and Jense were P1 and P2 behind the SC when Hamilton and Vettel pitted. However, I am hearing there were no pit lane stop lights in operation when the pack entered the pit lane. They should have been deployed while the train went through. SV and LH must have joined in front of the train and let the SC past or behind and made their way up the field. I can't work that out at all, because the live timing had them both at '1 lap' after their stops. Even Brundle remarked they would have to adjust their places. Go figure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh oh, Alonso's complaining that the race was manipulated. If found false, I hope he's punished. This is a serious allegation.

:roll:

Indeed.

I have a question. Vettel and Hamilton pitted long after Button under the SC, yet retained 1st and 2nd place respectively. How?

I watch the FIA live timing and Kobi and Jense were P1 and P2 behind the SC when Hamilton and Vettel pitted. However, I am hearing there were no pit lane stop lights in operation when the pack entered the pit lane. They should have been deployed while the train went through. SV and LH must have joined in front of the train and let the SC past or behind and made their way up the field. I can't work that out at all, because the live timing had them both at '1 lap' after their stops. Even Brundle remarked they would have to adjust their places. Go figure.

Hmm well I didn't see the live timing but I don't know how reliable that is in complicated situations. SV and LH were ahead of the safety car as it drove round slowly, so they made their stops and in-laps very quickly. I don't know exactly how it worked out either though. Perhaps the SC was still letting everyone else through at that point until SV came up behind... except they weren't allowed to pass until allowed through by the SC, whereas Lewis just overtook. I really don't know though.

Alonso's comments were very funny and Dominicalli seemed equally rattled. Nando seemed flustered for the rest of the race - and there's no doubt he still behaves irrationally towards Lewis. If anyone else had held him up like that, I can't believe it would have affected him so much.

Furthermore it seems as though Nando doesn't understand that you are allowed to overtake the SC before the 1st SC line as it exits the pits. Lewis appeared to be checking on the radio and hesitated a little too much. It wouldn't be the first time checking rules with his team has cost him dear.

I don't think the SC was really deployed that late compared to other instances where race control waited to see if it was necessary and the late awarding of Lewis's drive-through is also not that rare - wasn't Nico Rosberg given a late penalty in Singapore 2 years ago, for example?

Edited by Max Mosley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm well I didn't see the live timing but I don't know how reliable that is in complicated situations. SV and LH were ahead of the safety car as it drove round slowly, so they made their stops and in-laps very quickly. I don't know exactly how it worked out either though. Perhaps the SC was still letting everyone else through at that point until SV came up behind... except they weren't allowed to pass until allowed through by the SC, whereas Lewis just overtook. I really don't know though.

How's that? Kobayashi didn't pit during SC period. He put supersofts at the end of the race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How's that? Kobayashi didn't pit during SC period. He put supersofts at the end of the race.

Exactly! Kobi was the 'net' race leader. It takes some explaining. It is also my understanding that once the SC is deployed, drivers must adhere to the Delta time set by the FIA. There is no way on such a long circuit that SV and LH could have got back in front of Kobi. If there is, I'd like to know how?eusa_think.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, 5 secs sure is a country mile XD (OK, it's not so much but gives Alonso a position and denies De La Rosa his only point. Ouch.)

About the SC question, it is interesting because I wondered the same thing, however I think it could have been: Vettel and Hamilton are ahead of the safety car, so if they had gone a full lap around they would have been dead last (on track, not in position). They go into the pits and exit once again ahead of the safety car, but instead of catching up with everyone behind it they stay ahead, slow down a lot and let it past them. Is that possible? The Safety Car has to be in front of the first guy in line, so it's quite logical that they let it past instead of overtaking the whole field. But whatever they did, by that time everyone else was bunched up behind the SC and that enabled them to hold their initial positions, I'm guessing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About the SC question, it is interesting because I wondered the same thing, however I think it could have been: Vettel and Hamilton are ahead of the safety car, so if they had gone a full lap around they would have been dead last (on track, not in position). They go into the pits and exit once again ahead of the safety car, but instead of catching up with everyone behind it they stay ahead, slow down a lot and let it past them. Is that possible? The Safety Car has to be in front of the first guy in line, so it's quite logical that they let it past instead of overtaking the whole field. But whatever they did, by that time everyone else was bunched up behind the SC and that enabled them to hold their initial positions, I'm guessing.

I doubt it. If they had done that, they would have raced one lap less than all the other drivers and we would all know it by now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Schumacher seeks rules clarification

ESPNF1 Staff

June 27, 2010 « Barrichello targets turnaround | Nine drivers hit with five-second penalties »

Michael Schumacher wants a clarification of the safety car regulations © Getty Images Related LinksReport:Vettel holds off Hamilton for victory

Race:European Grand Prix Championship:FIA Formula One World Championship Profiles:Michael Schumacher Teams:Mercedes Michael Schumacher has called for clarification of the safety car rules after the seven-time world champion completed his worst ever race finish in 259 grand prix starts.

Schumacher, who eventually finished well down in 16th position, says his strategy was compromised by the safety car period in Sunday's European Grand Prix.

The German was running a strong third after his rivals pitted after Mark Webber's crash, but when he completed his pitstop he was forced to wait at the end of the pitlane due to a red light and he rejoined at the back of the field.

"What a race. We would like to have clarification about the safety car situation as the red light on the exit from my first pitstop destroyed a race which otherwise would have offered us very good possibilities," said Schumacher. "Our point of view is that as the safety car had passed the pits without having the cars lined up behind it, there should not have been a red light. There was a green light for a moment and then suddenly it went red again. We believe that this was not correct.

"Our strategy was right in that context as we took the opportunity which could have given us a finish even close to the podium."

Team boss Ross Brawn echoed his driver's sentiments, saying that the exit light should not have gone red until a line of cars has formed behind the safety car.

"With Michael, we were looking to benefit strongly from the safety car," said Brawn. "As the leaders had not been picked up, Michael was waved through and that gave us a golden opportunity to make his pit stop as our predictions were that the option tyre would hold up for the remainder of the race. However, when Michael came to exit the pits, the red light was showing which cost him a significant amount of time.

"In our view, the regulations are clear that the exit light should not go red until the line of cars has formed behind the safety car, and we would like the FIA to look into this. There was no line formed and over 18 seconds between Hamilton and Kobayashi when Michael came in. It was a good effort from Michael to try and recover from there but ultimately a very frustrating afternoon."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is neccesary to note where on the track SV and LH were when the SC condition ocurred. The gap they had placed them in a situation where they had a shorter distance to go for the pits BEFORE full safety car on track conditions applied. This allowed them to stay at the front while everyone else that then pitted up to but excluding Kobayashi, allowed the Sauber to take track position.

As Schumi is calling for rule clarification, perhaps they should rethink this idiotic idea of wanting to time track and speed control cars on the track, no matter if they are charging for the pits or staying out when a SC situation ocur. There is no precise science here as all that needs to happen is the SC goes out on track ONLY when the race leader comes round to START a new lap. WHat happened here was the SC missed SV by nearly 2 secs and squared up with LH and from there blocked the rest, from Alonso back. The SC should have remained in the pit until SV next came round. At that point all drivers would have been informed that the circuit was under FULL YELLOW and that the race leader would have to drop behind the safety car starting the NEXT LAP.

With the rule clearly clarified in this way, I cant see any confusion or a situation like today where Ferrari and whoever else would feel they have been short changed with a pit stop opportunity without losing track position to the extend that Alonso did?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Senna4ever! Welcome to the asylum. :)

And I don't really understand the point that Button and Alonso fans :P are making about Kobayashi tbh. It doesn't prove anything imho because he started out a long way behind SV & LH.

What is clear is that the leaders were ahead of the SC on track when it was deployed. The usual procedure under those cirumstances is surely to allow all the remaining cars to overtake it (and continue at a reduced pace) until the leaders next come round. So what I imagine happened, and I don't know obviously, is that people like Kobayashi and Button were allowed to overtake the SC once and line up behind the 'leaders' (SV and LH) next time round. The leaders were not held up at all by the SC and were in any case far ahead of Kobayashi et al., who are presumably no longer allowed to race around at full speed now that we have these deltas that they're supposed to follow, unless they only apply on an in-lap, so that changes the effect that a SC has on track positions.

Edited by Max Mosley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And in any case Kobayashi was far behind the leaders, he only got third because everybody pitted, Michael was going to be third if it hadn't been for his horrible strategy, so Vettel and Hamilton had plenty of distance separating them from their closest rival.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now I saw what happened. They had to stay behind the safety car for nearly a whole lap until Race Control told them they could overtake the SC together with the two Ferraris.

No wonder why Massa lost 14th places after his pit-stop.

Still wondering why Schumacher didn't get 5 sec. penalty in Monaco.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah it does seem as if Race Control messed up if they held them up almost an entire lap. The rules aren't very fair - we've seen countless times that safety cars completely change the order. Sometimes it works for you and sometimes against you. There's little doubt that Alonso lost out unfairly this time, though he seems to be over-reacting a little to me, probably because it was Hamilton again. Button of course was flukey as always.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly! Kobi was the 'net' race leader. It takes some explaining. It is also my understanding that once the SC is deployed, drivers must adhere to the Delta time set by the FIA. There is no way on such a long circuit that SV and LH could have got back in front of Kobi. If there is, I'd like to know how?eusa_think.gif

Koby was miles behind to start with.

And whilst I have no footage to corroborate against, I am sure you will find that the SC let all the cars through to pick up SV. SV was ahead of the SC when the SC was deployed, so he was always going to be in first, and Hamilton was level with the SC as it was deployed coming past the pit exit lane, and was really only just behind at the white safety line - not like he was driving BEHIND the safety car at any time out on the track and then overtook. Alonso on the other hand, was clearly three of four car lengths behind the SC (and Hamilton).

I think ANYONE in Hamilton's position would have quite rightly thought they were ahead of the SC and just tootled off down the road - it was that close. Everyone bar Koby and the Virgins pitted, but they were so far behind only manaaged to get up to the mid teens. Koby was the right distance behind to leadfrog everybody and end up in third.

It wasn't badly handled at all. It's plain as to see what happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh, the denials of the lewisteric... as endearing as young love.

What will you all do when the cheating and lies turn on you... your object of worship getting fvcked over unfairly while your the target of your many hatreds getting unfairly gited race after race.

How can I not smile at your innocence and naivete.

There are no guaranties, dear boys and girls, when things like these are allowed to happen time and again while none of you stand up and call them what they are explictly... because, you know, a crane can "lift" anyone... as must have ocurred to you all, ok, maybe not until now that I mention it (given your condition as fanatics)... so take 5 arbritary seconds as penalty. It will surely right all wrongs...

Truly amusing stuff. Like I said elsewhere. I prefer racing but I will settle for FIA's comedy and, with a little help from my dear fanatics, bursts of laughter as sound and healty I had yesterday... didn't even watch the race after the fix. That's how endearing you all are...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:rolleyes:

Anyway, okay-ish race. It was Valencia so I didn't go into it thinking there would be loads of overtaking, and there wasn't, but it wasn't awful. Most important thing is that Webber's okay though, very very scary accident. Don't really see the point of why Heikki was so aggressive in defending that, because clearly if that hadn't happened it was a case of when Webber was going to get past, not if.

Annoyed over Hamilton. Seems like he has one set of rules for himself and then there's the set of rules that comply to the rest.

Glad no big penalties were given out to the nine cars. Sure, they broke the rules, but it would have been a crying shame if there had been a big change of results because of that, it would have been unfair on the fans. The result they see should be the final result.

Lastly glad to see Vettel back on the top step. He's one of my favourites, so hopefully he can win again when I'm present at the British GP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Koby was miles behind to start with.

And whilst I have no footage to corroborate against, I am sure you will find that the SC let all the cars through to pick up SV. SV was ahead of the SC when the SC was deployed, so he was always going to be in first, and Hamilton was level with the SC as it was deployed coming past the pit exit lane, and was really only just behind at the white safety line - not like he was driving BEHIND the safety car at any time out on the track and then overtook. Alonso on the other hand, was clearly three of four car lengths behind the SC (and Hamilton).

I think ANYONE in Hamilton's position would have quite rightly thought they were ahead of the SC and just tootled off down the road - it was that close. Everyone bar Koby and the Virgins pitted, but they were so far behind only manaaged to get up to the mid teens. Koby was the right distance behind to leadfrog everybody and end up in third.

It wasn't badly handled at all. It's plain as to see what happened.

It doesn't change the fact that Button pitted way ahead of SV and LH. Both the previous leaders would inevitably come out behind Kobi who had stayed out and Button who had pitted first. It couldn't work out any other way. Live timing clearly had SV and LH showing at 1 lap behind once they had rejoined. This would be correct. They were virtually the last two cars to pit under the SC. Then it was changed on the 4th lap after the SC went in. For me, the FIA messed up. It's completely logical - if the leaders pit under the SC, they are not going to rejoin in the lead are they?

Edited by Insider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DOD? I can´t decide between Koba or MSC... but Koba did a beter job today... but MSC did a better job ruinning his reputation today... so which one I choose?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are no guaranties, dear boys and girls, when things like these are allowed to happen time and again while none of you stand up and call them what they are explictly...

I think only Alonso is calling a spade a spade but in all truth it is Red Bull and Vettel who can lose both championships because of FIA's wrongdoings. Twice in a row. mellow.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't change the fact that Button pitted way ahead of SV and LH. Both the previous leaders would inevitably come out behind Kobi who had stayed out and Button who had pitted first. It couldn't work out any other way. Live timing clearly had SV and LH showing at 1 lap behind once they had rejoined. This would be correct. They were virtually the last two cars to pit under the SC. Then it was changed on the 4th lap after the SC went in. For me, the FIA messed up. It's completely logical - if the leaders pit under the SC, they are not going to rejoin in the lead are they?

What you are missing is that the SC was not deployed right away, the status of the track was SC but the actual car took some time to come to the track and when it did Vettel had already pass the pit exit and LH was passing it at that point a the white line that indicate that SC is on track LH was a little behind the SC but next to it, at that moment Lewis hesitated and lost some time before applyng full power anyway the SC made it first to the white line but just for a couple of feet, so he was penalized for that infraction that he actually comitted so the penalty was fear, had LH been a couple of feet ahead and he wouldn't had received the penalty after that Alonso stood behind the SC and so did the rest of the car that were in line then the SC stooped on track showing a ver nice set of light after letting pass the cars that is was holding behind, while the SC was doing this SV and LH pitted and made it to the SC and the SC continue to "lead" the race while the guys who were behind the SC were pitting except for Kobayashi and Schumi who pitted later and was stopped by the Red light at the pit exit, the reason why SV and LH came ahead of KK is that they were never behind the SC as the rest of the guys who pitted after they were allowed to pass the SC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now