freaky2

Valencia Gp

338 posts in this topic

I know what you meant and if I chose to reply to you is because I have a high regard for your opinions. But it intrigued me why Alonso fans (an almost non-existant species in this forum) deserves a special mention whereas the much noisier Hamilton fans mob does not? Even the Buttonites get a lot of flak from both sides (and, to their defense, I must add that they take it in the chin, but they also are mostly casual posters).

Everybody complaints about everything: SC rules, no overtaking, teams cheating, FIAs decisions, etc. But only "Alonso fans" are considered an evil group and I wonder why.

I know you didn't mean your post in this way but as you mentioned them I was hoping you could give me a reasonable answer on that. One I could respect from a poster I do respect, or at least a poster I respect as much as I respect Steve's semen.

If I only mentioned Alonso fans it was because (on this occasion) my post was about Alonso.

But don't forget my previous posts on this forum when I've made similarly scathing posts regarding Hamilton's childishness.

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Yes FIA is guilty but I am talking about is that it doesn't matter if Hamilton did this or not to Alonso's position on track, neither he or Ferrai can say that Hamilton ruined his race because he overtook the SC because Hamilton is only one car so the best that alonso could had hoped for was a 7th place finish that's why i said that his complain is about Hamilton finishing second and not about their race itself as Alonso is always racing Hamilton, Alonso admited that had LH not overtaken the SC Hamilton would had finished 8th and he would have finished 9th and absolutely noone have been able to logically explain to me why Alonso and Ferrari say that LH ruinned their race.

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If I only mentioned Alonso fans it was because (on this occasion) my post was about Alonso.

But don't forget my previous posts on this forum when I've made similarly scathing posts regarding Hamilton's childishness.

Sorry, I wasn't accusing you of being biased against Alonso fans. I was asking if you (as an observer from another place) could tell me why is it that Alonso fans are worse than Hamilton fans or Buemi's fans (?) for that matter. I know you have pointed Hamilton's faults when they deserved it. My question was out of curiosity, not a criticism.

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My take on the Hamilton/Alonso complaints/SC course of events,

The incident:

-Hamilton saw the SC in the pitlane about to enter the track, he was unsure of the rules as to whether he should back off or not, and was probably struggling to see the SC line from his low position in the c0ckpit.

-He hesitated momentarily, which meant Alonso had to slow too, but then he decided to go through. By that time it was obvious to Alonso he couldn't go through himself (way past the SC line) and he realised that Hamilton had breached the rules

-Alonso felt blocked by Lewis, and from his position it may have seemed intentional that Lewis slowed down so Alonso couldn't get through

-That obviously wasn't the case, it had nothing to do with trying to hold up Alonso so that only he could get through and Alonso couldn't. It was merely an over-cautious approach from Hamilton, the one time he is cautious, he ends up getting penalised (not saying the penalty was incorrect, just pointing out the irony).

The complaints:

-Alonso's complaints (during the race) are justified. He has a right to complain because he was so close to Lewis before Lewis broke the rules, and yet they ended up so far apart.

-People don't like those complaints? That's part of Alonso's character, consider it a weakness (he loses focus) or a strength (he fires himself up) from whatever perspective you choose, but that is his character (and honestly, it's boring to see such criticisms because when it was a driver like Kimi, and he didn't complain in such a situation, very few people gave credit - so drivers can't win and it just goes to show people's reaction depends on who said what rather than what is said). Anyway.

-Either way, whichever perspective, it doesn't necessarily mean the rest of Alonso's race was compromised just because he was complaining. GP drivers can multi-task and there was very little overtaking anyway during the race so I doubt it had any real effect whatsoever.

-Alonso's complaints (after the race) become less and less justified imo. Immediately after it's easy to understand he'd still be annoyed. But, if he's still talking about this in a week then it becomes boring, because it was ultimately just FIA incompetence combined with luck (something he should realise soon enough).

-Ferrari's complaints, again they originate (like Alonso's) from a reasonable position, which is that the guy who breached the rules didn't get any kind of meaningful sanction. The difference is that Ferrari, being a company, should not be so emotional in their comments. The bosses of Ferrari (Luca and co) shouldn't be coming out with all this "unacceptable" rubbish and attacking the credibility of the sport (especially in light of their history of cheating and 'veto' rights in F1 which make this a drop in the ocean).

-The hypocrisy of Ferrari is what's actually grating for me about this whole thing, rather than Alonso getting justifiably p**sed off on track.

The FIA:

-The decision should have been quicker, again, the usual FIA/race management issues. Perhaps they were dealing with other events but the penalty should have been applied sooner because it seemed fairly clear.

-Also, the 5 second penalties are completely ridiculous. It's like they wanted to penalise drivers, but didn't want the penalties to interfere with the race result, so they gave them such minor penalties it made very little difference (therefore the execution neutralised the purpose).

-This is always the inherent conflict that happens when giving out penalties after a race (i.e. "we need to give a sanction, but not one which makes any difference otherwise it's bad for the sport and people who attended the race").

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My take on the Hamilton/Alonso complaints/SC course of events,

The incident:

-Hamilton saw the SC in the pitlane about to enter the track, he was unsure of the rules as to whether he should back off or not, and was probably struggling to see the SC line from his low position in the c0ckpit.

-He hesitated momentarily, which meant Alonso had to slow too, but then he decided to go through. By that time it was obvious to Alonso he couldn't go through himself (way past the SC line) and he realised that Hamilton had breached the rules

-Alonso felt blocked by Lewis, and from his position it may have seemed intentional that Lewis slowed down so Alonso couldn't get through

-That obviously wasn't the case, it had nothing to do with trying to hold up Alonso so that only he could get through and Alonso couldn't. It was merely an over-cautious approach from Hamilton, the one time he is cautious, he ends up getting penalised (not saying the penalty was incorrect, just pointing out the irony).

The complaints:

-Alonso's complaints (during the race) are justified. He has a right to complain because he was so close to Lewis before Lewis broke the rules, and yet they ended up so far apart.

-People don't like those complaints? That's part of Alonso's character, consider it a weakness (he loses focus) or a strength (he fires himself up) from whatever perspective you choose, but that is his character (and honestly, it's boring to see such criticisms because when it was a driver like Kimi, and he didn't complain in such a situation, very few people gave credit - so drivers can't win and it just goes to show people's reaction depends on who said what rather than what is said). Anyway.

-Either way, whichever perspective, it doesn't necessarily mean the rest of Alonso's race was compromised just because he was complaining. GP drivers can multi-task and there was very little overtaking anyway during the race so I doubt it had any real effect whatsoever.

-Alonso's complaints (after the race) become less and less justified imo. Immediately after it's easy to understand he'd still be annoyed. But, if he's still talking about this in a week then it becomes boring, because it was ultimately just FIA incompetence combined with luck (something he should realise soon enough).

-Ferrari's complaints, again they originate (like Alonso's) from a reasonable position, which is that the guy who breached the rules didn't get any kind of meaningful sanction. The difference is that Ferrari, being a company, should not be so emotional in their comments. The bosses of Ferrari (Luca and co) shouldn't be coming out with all this "unacceptable" rubbish and attacking the credibility of the sport (especially in light of their history of cheating and 'veto' rights in F1 which make this a drop in the ocean).

-The hypocrisy of Ferrari is what's actually grating for me about this whole thing, rather than Alonso getting justifiably p**sed off on track.

The FIA:

-The decision should have been quicker, again, the usual FIA/race management issues. Perhaps they were dealing with other events but the penalty should have been applied sooner because it seemed fairly clear.

-Also, the 5 second penalties are completely ridiculous. It's like they wanted to penalise drivers, but didn't want the penalties to interfere with the race result, so they gave them such minor penalties it made very little difference (therefore the execution neutralised the purpose).

-This is always the inherent conflict that happens when giving out penalties after a race (i.e. "we need to give a sanction, but not one which makes any difference otherwise it's bad for the sport and people who attended the race").

Indeed.

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Sorry, I wasn't accusing you of being biased against Alonso fans. I was asking if you (as an observer from another place) could tell me why is it that Alonso fans are worse than Hamilton fans or Buemi's fans (?) for that matter. I know you have pointed Hamilton's faults when they deserved it. My question was out of curiosity, not a criticism.

Andres, from my perspective, I see lots of bias on this forum towards both Hamilton and Alonso, drivers and fans included. Maybe it's because the perceived traits of the driver get imbued upon their fans by the fans of other drivers and so on. That leads to a cycle of abuse, basically. My guess is 2007 and the media amplification around that didn't help either, as well as the fact that those two are the leading drivers in F1 in terms of controversy (whether they cause it or it seeks them out), so people tend to get polarised in their opinions of them anyway.

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My take on the Hamilton/Alonso complaints/SC course of events,

The incident:

-Hamilton saw the SC in the pitlane about to enter the track, he was unsure of the rules as to whether he should back off or not, and was probably struggling to see the SC line from his low position in the c0ckpit.

-He hesitated momentarily, which meant Alonso had to slow too, but then he decided to go through. By that time it was obvious to Alonso he couldn't go through himself (way past the SC line) and he realised that Hamilton had breached the rules

-Alonso felt blocked by Lewis, and from his position it may have seemed intentional that Lewis slowed down so Alonso couldn't get through

-That obviously wasn't the case, it had nothing to do with trying to hold up Alonso so that only he could get through and Alonso couldn't. It was merely an over-cautious approach from Hamilton, the one time he is cautious, he ends up getting penalised (not saying the penalty was incorrect, just pointing out the irony).

The complaints:

-Alonso's complaints (during the race) are justified. He has a right to complain because he was so close to Lewis before Lewis broke the rules, and yet they ended up so far apart.

-People don't like those complaints? That's part of Alonso's character, consider it a weakness (he loses focus) or a strength (he fires himself up) from whatever perspective you choose, but that is his character (and honestly, it's boring to see such criticisms because when it was a driver like Kimi, and he didn't complain in such a situation, very few people gave credit - so drivers can't win and it just goes to show people's reaction depends on who said what rather than what is said). Anyway.

-Either way, whichever perspective, it doesn't necessarily mean the rest of Alonso's race was compromised just because he was complaining. GP drivers can multi-task and there was very little overtaking anyway during the race so I doubt it had any real effect whatsoever.

-Alonso's complaints (after the race) become less and less justified imo. Immediately after it's easy to understand he'd still be annoyed. But, if he's still talking about this in a week then it becomes boring, because it was ultimately just FIA incompetence combined with luck (something he should realise soon enough).

-Ferrari's complaints, again they originate (like Alonso's) from a reasonable position, which is that the guy who breached the rules didn't get any kind of meaningful sanction. The difference is that Ferrari, being a company, should not be so emotional in their comments. The bosses of Ferrari (Luca and co) shouldn't be coming out with all this "unacceptable" rubbish and attacking the credibility of the sport (especially in light of their history of cheating and 'veto' rights in F1 which make this a drop in the ocean).

-The hypocrisy of Ferrari is what's actually grating for me about this whole thing, rather than Alonso getting justifiably p**sed off on track.

The FIA:

-The decision should have been quicker, again, the usual FIA/race management issues. Perhaps they were dealing with other events but the penalty should have been applied sooner because it seemed fairly clear.

-Also, the 5 second penalties are completely ridiculous. It's like they wanted to penalise drivers, but didn't want the penalties to interfere with the race result, so they gave them such minor penalties it made very little difference (therefore the execution neutralised the purpose).

-This is always the inherent conflict that happens when giving out penalties after a race (i.e. "we need to give a sanction, but not one which makes any difference otherwise it's bad for the sport and people who attended the race").

:thbup:

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Oh, look! The lewisteric gloating because his little swimmers made it to the finish line! FYI, that's what happens when the rubber wears off, whether it is the hard or the soft compound.

I'm just pleased I have had the opportunity to wear the rubber down on track, although I would have preferred a bit more in season testing before reaching the winning line. Before any interest in allowing me to race I was confined to race simulations, where considerable 'graining' occurred.

Oddly, even though now I have won, there seems to be no interest in giving me a permanent race seat; I'm back to simulations again.

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I'm just pleased I have had the opportunity to wear the rubber down on track, although I would have preferred a bit more in season testing before reaching the winning line. Before any interest in allowing me to race I was confined to race simulations, where considerable 'graining' occurred.

Oddly, even though now I have won, there seems to be no interest in giving me a permanent race seat; I'm back to simulations again.

I've heard that testing time will be awfully short once the 2011 model is launched so if I were you I would take my chances at the F-duct as much as I can right now. Otherwise, you will end with your exhaust pipe lowered way too much for the reminding of the season.

As for your comments about simulations, does that mean that you agree with Alonso that something is being "manipulated"?

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Andres, from my perspective, I see lots of bias on this forum towards both Hamilton and Alonso, drivers and fans included. Maybe it's because the perceived traits of the driver get imbued upon their fans by the fans of other drivers and so on. That leads to a cycle of abuse, basically. My guess is 2007 and the media amplification around that didn't help either, as well as the fact that those two are the leading drivers in F1 in terms of controversy (whether they cause it or it seeks them out), so people tend to get polarised in their opinions of them anyway.

Yes, that is my guess as well. Thank you TP, you always come handy when there's too much BS.

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Sorry, I wasn't accusing you of being biased against Alonso fans. I was asking if you (as an observer from another place) could tell me why is it that Alonso fans are worse than Hamilton fans or Buemi's fans (?) for that matter. I know you have pointed Hamilton's faults when they deserved it. My question was out of curiosity, not a criticism.

Hey Andres - sorry - I didn't get that question directly from your previous post.

The simple answer is that Alonso fans aren't worse than Hamilton fans. I never said the were. I don't understand where you got that impression. Fans of any and every driver have the capacity to become nausiating. Except Petrov fans of course - they're the best.:P

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Would Fernando have accepted his lot and his ultimate position had the Hamilton safety car issue not unfolded in front of his eyes? Once again, the lad needs to exorcise his demons, see the bigger picture, accept days like these and drive out of his skin. A flawed diamond.

I honestly think Alonso accepted his lot. He was unliky with the SC as some other times he's been lucky with it, he knows it and he's said that many many times. I have read or watched many interviews of him and he always say these things are balanced at the end of the Championship for all drivers.

What I think he didn't accept was a title contender breaking the rules, he asking Ferrari to ask Whiting as soon as it happened and race control taking a lot of laps to serve a penalty that finally didn't fit the crime. At the end of the day he complied with the rules and he paid for it, Hamilton didn't and he got a massive advantage.

If it had been Vettel, Button or any other title contender it would have make no difference but he's p**sed off with Hamilton's reprimands and uneffective penalties this season as much as many great drivers in the paddock.

I have sympathy for Alonso's argument today - the time it took to hand Hamilton his penalty was way too long and made the penalty pointless. FIA did a very poor job (deliberately or not) - this is nothing new.

That's Alonso's complaint and no other.

I think Andrés' post explained it so well. Exactly as I feel it.

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-Also, the 5 second penalties are completely ridiculous. It's like they wanted to penalise drivers, but didn't want the penalties to interfere with the race result, so they gave them such minor penalties it made very little difference (therefore the execution neutralised the purpose).

I think they've opened another can of worms with such ridiculous penalty.

In the past, every time there was a post race penalty there were only one or two possibilities. Drive through = 20 sec, stop&go = 30 sec. But post race penalties used to be mainly 20 sec. So it was easy in the past, if someone broke the rules it would be 20 sec or nothing.

Now it could be 20, 30 or 5 sec. Ok. Why not 2.5 sec? Or 0.5 sec? Or 7.3/π sec?

Last race of the Championship. A mid-pack car is involved in an post race investigation. If they penalise him with 20 seconds driver A win the Championship and team AA win the Constructors'. If they penalise with 30 sec drive C win the Championship but still team AA win Constructors. If they penalise with 5 sec driver C win the Championship and team CC win the Championship.

I think they should not have penalised them with 5 sec. That was stupid, why not a reprimand each? FFS!!!

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I honestly think Alonso accepted his lot. He was unliky with the SC as some other times he's been lucky with it, he knows it and he's said that many many times. I have read or watched many interviews of him and he always say these things are balanced at the end of the Championship for all drivers.

What I think he didn't accept was a title contender breaking the rules, he asking Ferrari to ask Whiting as soon as it happened and race control taking a lot of laps to serve a penalty that finally didn't fit the crime. At the end of the day he complied with the rules and he paid for it, Hamilton didn't and he got a massive advantage.

If it had been Vettel, Button or any other title contender it would have make no difference but he's p**sed off with Hamilton's reprimands and uneffective penalties this season as much as many great drivers in the paddock.

That's Alonso's complaint and no other.

I think Andrés' post explained it so well. Exactly as I feel it.

Can't argue with that. Although I would just say that I think the stewards are bringing back fairness to the sport with the penalties they are awarding. The whole reason ex-drivers are there now is to see things from a driver perspective. I think, in light of this new found fairness it is creating the perception that they are being too lenient. Having said that, there maybe needs to be a system whereby any driver who is making up considerable ground whilst a penalty is being considered, (we saw this with Rosberg aswell, I think at Valencia again (?) ) has time added retrospectively. This is just an idea off the top of my head.

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Can't argue with that. Although I would just say that I think the stewards are bringing back fairness to the sport with the penalties they are awarding. The whole reason ex-drivers are there now is to see things from a driver perspective. I think, in light of this new found fairness it is creating the perception that they are being too lenient. Having said that, there maybe needs to be a system whereby any driver who is making up considerable ground whilst a penalty is being considered, (we saw this with Rosberg aswell, I think at Valencia again (?) ) has time added retrospectively. This is just an idea off the top of my head.

I agree with Ale and I agree with you. I read an explanation of why it was a 5 second penalty on autosport (subscription content): "The FIA also studied carefully the GPS data relating to the cars that broke the time delta while pitting. Robert Kubica was doing 175mph plus with less than 100m to go to the timing line and suddenly slamming on the anchors would not have been appreciated by the closely following Button, Barrichello, Hulkenberg and Buemi, and could even have triggered another shunt similar to Webber's.

The stewards decided that there was precious little the drivers could have done. They believed that little advantage had been gained and that it would be wrong to vary the penalties, therefore the blanket 5s was decided upon."

Not sure I agree with that or not because I don't know all the facts, e.g. how much those drivers did gain and if they could have reasonably reacted sooner.

But anyway, that is an explanation of the 5 second penalties.

There is also an explanation for the time it took to apply a penalty to Lewis, which goes something like: the FIA basically wanted to make sure they got it right, it was a close call and they had to wait for a different camera angle as well as something to do with determining the position of the timing transponders on the Mclaren (which in such a close situation can make a difference).

As for your point about adding time retrospectively, I think it's a good one. If a thief steals money and invests it, if caught he shouldn't be able to keep the interest he made which is essentially what Lewis was able to do. Also, I think it was Rosberg at Singapore who gained a similar advantage.

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I agree with Ale and I agree with you. I read an explanation of why it was a 5 second penalty on autosport (subscription content): "The FIA also studied carefully the GPS data relating to the cars that broke the time delta while pitting. Robert Kubica was doing 175mph plus with less than 100m to go to the timing line and suddenly slamming on the anchors would not have been appreciated by the closely following Button, Barrichello, Hulkenberg and Buemi, and could even have triggered another shunt similar to Webber's.

The stewards decided that there was precious little the drivers could have done. They believed that little advantage had been gained and that it would be wrong to vary the penalties, therefore the blanket 5s was decided upon."

Not sure I agree with that or not because I don't know all the facts, e.g. how much those drivers did gain and if they could have reasonably reacted sooner.

But anyway, that is an explanation of the 5 second penalties.

There is also an explanation for the time it took to apply a penalty to Lewis, which goes something like: the FIA basically wanted to make sure they got it right, it was a close call and they had to wait for a different camera angle as well as something to do with determining the position of the timing transponders on the Mclaren (which in such a close situation can make a difference).

As for your point about adding time retrospectively, I think it's a good one. If a thief steals money and invests it, if caught he shouldn't be able to keep the interest he made which is essentially what Lewis was able to do. Also, I think it was Rosberg at Singapore who gained a similar advantage.

Again: indeed.

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Having said that, there maybe needs to be a system whereby any driver who is making up considerable ground whilst a penalty is being considered, (we saw this with Rosberg aswell, I think at Valencia again (?) ) has time added retrospectively. This is just an idea off the top of my head.

It was with Rosberg at Singapore 2008. I remember because of the crash-gate. Both situations are quite similar and I remember a few complaints from drivers/teams/fans but nothing's changed.

EDIT: Interview in Spanish

http://www.fernandoalonso.com/documentos/E..._270610_E_1.WMA

Edited by AleHop

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Alonso complaining about a manipulated race is the most ironic statment he has ever made....

Edited by Jean Todt

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Can't argue with that. Although I would just say that I think the stewards are bringing back fairness to the sport with the penalties they are awarding. The whole reason ex-drivers are there now is to see things from a driver perspective. I think, in light of this new found fairness it is creating the perception that they are being too lenient. Having said that, there maybe needs to be a system whereby any driver who is making up considerable ground whilst a penalty is being considered, (we saw this with Rosberg aswell, I think at Valencia again (?) ) has time added retrospectively. This is just an idea off the top of my head.

Agreed....

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Alonso complaining about a manipulated race is the most ironic statment he has ever made....

There is a say in my country and it goes like this: El ladron cree que todo el mundo roba which means something like "The thief think that everybody else steal" :P

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-Alonso's complaints (during the race) are justified. He has a right to complain because he was so close to Lewis before Lewis broke the rules, and yet they ended up so far apart.

-People don't like those complaints? That's part of Alonso's character, consider it a weakness (he loses focus) or a strength (he fires himself up) from whatever perspective you choose, but that is his character (and honestly, it's boring to see such criticisms because when it was a driver like Kimi, and he didn't complain in such a situation, very few people gave credit - so drivers can't win and it just goes to show people's reaction depends on who said what rather than what is said). Anyway.

-Either way, whichever perspective, it doesn't necessarily mean the rest of Alonso's race was compromised just because he was complaining. GP drivers can multi-task and there was very little overtaking anyway during the race so I doubt it had any real effect whatsoever.

Yes I agree he has the right to complain, and even getting a little annoyed for a moment would be understandable, but to me it seemed more than that. No doubt I'm biased but I have to say he sounded a bit rattled and obsessed about it to me. I got the impression that Stefano (I think) was trying to tell him to calm down like Rob has to tell Felipe, while Nando was telling his engineers that the only thing they had to do all race was get Hamilton penalised. Getting fired up about it is one thing but it seemed more like losing focus in this instance, at least to me. :lol:

-Alonso's complaints (after the race) become less and less justified imo. Immediately after it's easy to understand he'd still be annoyed. But, if he's still talking about this in a week then it becomes boring, because it was ultimately just FIA incompetence combined with luck (something he should realise soon enough).

-Ferrari's complaints, again they originate (like Alonso's) from a reasonable position, which is that the guy who breached the rules didn't get any kind of meaningful sanction. The difference is that Ferrari, being a company, should not be so emotional in their comments. The bosses of Ferrari (Luca and co) shouldn't be coming out with all this "unacceptable" rubbish and attacking the credibility of the sport (especially in light of their history of cheating and 'veto' rights in F1 which make this a drop in the ocean).

-The hypocrisy of Ferrari is what's actually grating for me about this whole thing, rather than Alonso getting justifiably p**sed off on track.

Yup I agree with all that.

After looking through the safety car rules ( http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8687/fia.html) I am under the impression that after you have seen the safety car, you are to stay behind it unless told otherwise. The first safety car line controls overtaking between cars just after the safety car has returned to the pits. The second safety car line is used to regulate overtaking of cars that are exiting the pits while the race is under safety car. Nowhere do the rules specify that the safety car is considered to be on track after passing the second safety car line. IMO as soon as the safety car has passed the pit exit it is considered on track. Now if you are passing the pit exit at 190mph and miss to spot the SC that emerges just as you pass, then you might be given the benefit of the doubt but seeing it and braking first and then intentionally accelerating makes it very hard to justify anything else than an intentional breach of the rules.

This is a good post from another thread. It's not at all clear to me from the rules when you have to slow down before the SC and when you can go 'past' it. I don't think either Lewis or Nando were clear about it at all either.

The simple answer is that Alonso fans aren't worse than Hamilton fans. I never said the were. I don't understand where you got that impression. Fans of any and every driver have the capacity to become nausiating. Except Petrov fans of course - they're the best.:P

You might be right, and this reply is directed at no one in particular, it's just a random aside. I don't subscribe to the notion that fans of all drivers are absolutely identical on average. We on this forum seem happy to call football fans 'hooligans' but insist that it is logically impossible for there to be any difference at all between those drawn to Schumacher's ruthless aggression and others drawn more to Anthony Davidson's plucky loser-ness, for example. And of course there are many other reasons why fans of one driver might differ a little on average with fans of another.

What I think he didn't accept was a title contender breaking the rules, he asking Ferrari to ask Whiting as soon as it happened and race control taking a lot of laps to serve a penalty that finally didn't fit the crime. At the end of the day he complied with the rules and he paid for it, Hamilton didn't and he got a massive advantage.

If it had been Vettel, Button or any other title contender it would have make no difference but he's p**sed off with Hamilton's reprimands and uneffective penalties this season as much as many great drivers in the paddock.

I don't think that's really it tbh. If that were the case, I'd expect the other championship contenders to be equally fed up with Hamilton's special treatment but Alonso seems a lot more vocal about it. Red Bull for example said that McLaren were 'maybe a bit naughty' in this case but that there was no serious problem.

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I don't think that's really it tbh. If that were the case, I'd expect the other championship contenders to be equally fed up with Hamilton's special treatment but Alonso seems a lot more vocal about it. Red Bull for example said that McLaren were 'maybe a bit naughty' in this case but that there was no serious problem.

Alonso seems a lot more vocal about it, yes.

Alonso is a lot more vocal about many things.

Others just talk PC and do PR.

A few newspapers from Italy, Germany and Spain have talked about what happened in Valencia with Hamilton's penalty as unacceptable. In France, Canada, USA, Japan, China... I suppose they were equally 'amazed' about it.

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You might be right, and this reply is directed at no one in particular, it's just a random aside. I don't subscribe to the notion that fans of all drivers are absolutely identical on average. We on this forum seem happy to call football fans 'hooligans' but insist that it is logically impossible for there to be any difference at all between those drawn to Schumacher's ruthless aggression and others drawn more to Anthony Davidson's plucky loser-ness, for example. And of course there are many other reasons why fans of one driver might differ a little on average with fans of another.

Yes - I'd agree fans are different. National traits also have an affect (since people often support their own nationality).

There's another question - does a driver attract fans of a certain type or does being a fan of a certain driver cause uniform behaviours. I would think a bit of both.

Lastly - I said:

Fans of any and every driver have the capacity to become nausiating.

That doesn't mean they're not different in other ways (so I agree with you), but I think they are alike in this capacity. ;)

There's also a vast range of posting styles from people who support the same driver. As always, it comes down to the individual but possibly trends can be defined.

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I know what you meant and if I chose to reply to you is because I have a high regard for your opinions. But it intrigued me why Alonso fans (an almost non-existant species in this forum) deserves a special mention whereas the much noisier Hamilton fans mob does not? Even the Buttonites get a lot of flak from both sides (and, to their defense, I must add that they take it in the chin, but they also are mostly casual posters).

Everybody complaints about everything: SC rules, no overtaking, teams cheating, FIAs decisions, etc. But only "Alonso fans" are considered an evil group and I wonder why.

I know you didn't mean your post in this way but as you mentioned them I was hoping you could give me a reasonable answer on that. One I could respect from a poster I do respect, or at least a poster I respect as much as I respect Steve's semen.

Andres, from my perspective, I see lots of bias on this forum towards both Hamilton and Alonso, drivers and fans included. Maybe it's because the perceived traits of the driver get imbued upon their fans by the fans of other drivers and so on. That leads to a cycle of abuse, basically. My guess is 2007 and the media amplification around that didn't help either, as well as the fact that those two are the leading drivers in F1 in terms of controversy (whether they cause it or it seeks them out), so people tend to get polarised in their opinions of them anyway.

Where does that leave me? I'm both a Hamilton fan and an Alonso fan? Or perhaps you're not talking about someone like me (and a few others) who admire and enjoy watching these two drivers on-track but will call out mistakes made by both as they happen?

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Hi guys!!

Long time without posting but always keeping an eye on you...

- The incident: Webber happens... can´t see how he can put the blame on Kovy :bangin:

- Alonso: I can understand he got mad, it was a crucial race for him. True he did the right thing and lost and the one he considers his rival for the tittle cheated and got away with it. It has to be frustrating (big time) Having said this and even when I understand these statements were done just after the race I´m a litte bit tired of his attitude. It was 24 guys racing out there and Hammy was the only one breaking the rules. The other racers/teams deserve some respect. Kobayashi, Buemi and Vettel (among some others)did they work in style, don´t tell them about manipulated races. FA´s not the center of the F1, there was F1 way before him and there´ll be way after he´s gone. In the meantime he´s lossing some nice oportunties to shut up his huge mouth. Either he focus in racing or the season will be over for him soon.

- Hamilton: This guys knows no limit... he´s always on the edge. On the one hand, when it comes to racing, he produces best entertainment I´ve seen in years so I can only applause him. One the other, when it comes to do whatever he wants to do, I guess it´s too much and I´m as tired of his "tactis" as of Fernando´s whining . When you are constantly walking on the edge of the knife you have a lot of chances to get hurt... Every single time this guy decides to go his way he´s putting the FIA and the sport in evidence and I firmly suspect he´s going to pay for it.

- FIA: Absolutelly true it took them too much to sanction LH and when they did it ended up in nothing (I think the punishment fitted the crime... the timing was clearly the problem) Anyhow I have to say this new era with Jean Todt it´s way better than the previous one... we´ve gone from sanctioning everything to let the racers race. I clearly prefer the current situation.

As far as concerns the old war between Lewi´s and Alonso´s fans... guys, some of you are so pathetic that your posts deserve no answer. Everyone has he right to be biassed and of course entittled to have an opinion but a little bit of common sense would not hurt you (this applies both sides)Luckily there´s still a lot of fine posters around here that make this site an amazing one. I´m not talking about those who can go momentarily crazy and write some crap (I´ve been one of those) I´m talking about those who when it comes to praise/criticize their beloved/hated racer forget the facts and can go from point A to point Z in a post to justify the unjustifiable.

Take care!!!

Formula 1 fan

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