rodders47

Not Bad For A No. 2 Driver

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Just a typical Aussie speaking his mind :clap3: . Bloody well done Mark, you showed em all at Silverstone :clap3:

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It made me smile too.

Cheeky. Brash. Unnecessary. Likely to backfire.

Anyway, it worked well for him here but it won't matter. RBR will get now the same it got last season.

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Every team has a No.1 and No.2 driver - always did have, always will have. Obviously, it can change as results dictate. Surely, that's what happened at McLaren with LH and FA. The current situation at Woking has been manufactured and engineered by JB and LH for their mutual benefit and that of the team. I believe it is a genuine partnership. However, if push comes to shove and one or the other are grabbing more podiums as the season draws to a close, resources may have to be diverted to whoever Whitmarsh may feel gives him his best shot at both titles. I am sure JB and LH know that. Red Bull is another matter. Vettel is the Golden Boy and Webber is an experienced, dependable competitor who was just waiting for a decent car. He is meant to operate as a foil for the Chosen One and a points banker for the team. Problem is, no one told him that and Mark is no one's bitch and never will be. Unfortunately, though he is very quick and has been lucky enough to land this years' Brawn as his ride, he is still prone to horrific misjudgements as in Valencia. On the other hand, Vettel is still driving like a rookie as he clearly showed yesterday. His run from the back was certainly worthy of merit but hardly difficult, considering his huge advantage in pace. OK, some will say why couldn't Button get by Rosberg then. Well, they were evenly matched on ultimate pace and JB had fuel consumption problems. Ted Gravitz gleaned that info from the team. He probably had the wick turned up for several laps before he boxed. The RBR driver scenario certainly needs clarification. Trouble is, where would Webber go? Williams is the obvious choice but Rubens is doing a good job there. Renault is probably favourite but would they want to pay his salary? I doubt it. With all the top drivers staying were they are, I can't see that he has any choice but to go about his business and ignore the other side of the garage. After all, do they really need to go any faster?

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Webber made himself look like a whiner. Issues like this should be kept within the team and not aired in public. It reinforces how self centered Webber is and he does not fully appreciate the car and team he has to get him in front. It is not new, many drivers are by nature ego-maniacs and self centered, thus airing grievances in public. Too few drivers really appreciate what a team did for them..... thinking alot about Williams Team and unappreciative drivers like Damon Hill, Nigel Mansel, Jacques Villeneuve who had huge car advantages to win world championships, but still believe it was them and their outstanding skills. Webber has made a fool of himself for complaining about a wing that he originally did not think was an advantage. yes, most teams have #1 and #2, but usually unspoken in public. When you go public with whining, like Webber, and Ruebens at Ferrari, it just make you look small. I think RB is going through what McLaren went through with Hamilton and Alonso which required that be ended. Now, if Webber really thinks he is getting short-changed and demeaned, he needs to look at his options which will put him where Reubens was when he left Ferrari....nowhere.... He can be a close #2 and win races, or he can be #1 and rarely see the podium.

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Ole Peeps

I don't agree that every team has a No1 and a No. 2 driver. Yes of course, there can be only one winner in the end, but a team with Red Bull's resources can and should run two competitive drivers on an equal footing throughout a season. What has gone on over the last 6 weeks has been a PR disaster for them. As a racing team, their credibility is at an all time low, and personally for Horner, Marko and Newey, their faces betray themselves in Webber's celebratory photo shoot. Horner is currently writing a book called "How not to run a racing team - The secret of throwing away a comptetive advantage and binning two championships." Not sure how many it will sell when it gets published.

What he's managed to do since Turkey is unbelievable. Firstly critising Webber for the Turkey crash, then having to back track on that when the entire world saw it differently. Then taking Webber's wing from him at Silverstone and coming out with the lamest reason/excuse for doing so is simply staggering. How on earth did he think that would play out in the media and the public at large? Not a chance in hell for the same thing to happen had the circumstances been the other way around and Webber's nose mountings failed.

I believe that people around the world like to see fair play in sport, indeed that is the very nature of sport. People take an instant dislike to the manipulation of an event or when one competitor has been disadvantaged in some way and hasn't had a fair crack of the whip. The public and the media will often rally to the call of the underdog in these situations. Webber is playing this card well and Horner and RBR have no response to this because people have see the evidence with their own eyes and made a judgement on that in favour of Webber. In RBR it may be Vettel, Horner, Marko and Newey in one corner but Webber has the media in his and that can be enough, especially when you are dealing with a team that is so image concious.

Horner's radio message to Webber at the end of the race was so patronising as to be untrue.

Eddie Jordan really pressed Horner after the race about what has gone on and the situation within the team. I have critised Jordan in the past for his ramblings but on this occasion he struck home. He basically said to Horner that he didn't believe him when he said that he was pleased for Webber to win. Nice one EJ.

RBR has created this situation all by itself, they can't blame the driver for what they're facing. A driver will drive the car as fast as he can and try to beat his competitors, whether they be his team mate or the rest of the field. Horner must be worried about his positon in the team because it is his lack of management and discipline that has created this problem. Webber and Vettel will come together again before the end of the season, you can just feel it.

As for where would Webber go if there was a total breakdown in the relationship with RBR, how about MGP? Schumi out at the end of the season? If he doesn't perform any better in the second half of the season will he want to continue? Will they want to continue with him? What is it proving other than even the greats have a sell by date.

As a brand it might not be too bad as everyone is talking about them inside and outside the sport and they are pictured a great deal, so their profile has been raised. Mission accomplished there. Everything else is a complete dog's breakfast.

Tchau.

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Red Bull should have spoken to Mark privately and (if they didn't) said the following

1. We have a unique situation here, we only have one of the upgraded wings

2. Someone has to run that wing

3. You have said that there is no discernable difference.

4. We can tell you that it is in fact, a tenth quicker

5. Someone has to run that wing

6. Sebastien is leading our charge

7. Put yourself in my position, who would you give it to?

8. We are giving it to Sebastien

9. Yes there has been a hoo-ha about favouritism

10. No, this will do nothing to help that

11. Put yourself in my position, who would you give it to?

12. We are giving it to Sebastien.

13. If this arises again and you are leading thour charge, you will get the wing

14. Let's go racing.

Result, a mildly paranoid and p!ssed off Aussie, but a pumped up fast one and hopefully one that can see the logic of the decision made. Then, in winning and Seb losing out, one that should be quiet because the whole world can see what happened and he can take solace in it. By saying what he said on the radio though, he destroyed any respect he would have had from Horner and has put himself out on a limb. I would be amazed if Horner did not pull him up and grill him over that, and rightly so. Unless of course, the wing issue was not explained and agreed with him. Even so, although it was a public dispaly of favouritism, in my view it wasn't for the deep seated reasons that people tout (i.e Vettel being the golden by and a deep love for him because of this and that) it was for logical championship reasons. Fact; Red Bull have the fastest car but are quickly realising that McLaren could out fox them if they don't get it together. I bet Horner would love to explain his logic but knows that the talons of the media and the 'team orders' obsessives would have him over the coals. He made the right decision, unfortunately, the timing and the significance based on recent events was just lousy luck.

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Webber made himself look like a whiner. Issues like this should be kept within the team and not aired in public. It reinforces how self centered Webber is and he does not fully appreciate the car and team he has to get him in front. It is not new, many drivers are by nature ego-maniacs and self centered, thus airing grievances in public. Too few drivers really appreciate what a team did for them..... thinking alot about Williams Team and unappreciative drivers like Damon Hill, Nigel Mansel, Jacques Villeneuve who had huge car advantages to win world championships, but still believe it was them and their outstanding skills. Webber has made a fool of himself for complaining about a wing that he originally did not think was an advantage. yes, most teams have #1 and #2, but usually unspoken in public. When you go public with whining, like Webber, and Ruebens at Ferrari, it just make you look small. I think RB is going through what McLaren went through with Hamilton and Alonso which required that be ended. Now, if Webber really thinks he is getting short-changed and demeaned, he needs to look at his options which will put him where Reubens was when he left Ferrari....nowhere.... He can be a close #2 and win races, or he can be #1 and rarely see the podium.

Too hard on Webber and the generalization over driver's personalities is just that.

Ole Peeps

I don't agree that every team has a No1 and a No. 2 driver. Yes of course, there can be only one winner in the end, but a team with Red Bull's resources can and should run two competitive drivers on an equal footing throughout a season. What has gone on over the last 6 weeks has been a PR disaster for them. As a racing team, their credibility is at an all time low, and personally for Horner, Marko and Newey, their faces betray themselves in Webber's celebratory photo shoot. Horner is currently writing a book called "How not to run a racing team - The secret of throwing away a comptetive advantage and binning two championships." Not sure how many it will sell when it gets published.

What he's managed to do since Turkey is unbelievable. Firstly critising Webber for the Turkey crash, then having to back track on that when the entire world saw it differently. Then taking Webber's wing from him at Silverstone and coming out with the lamest reason/excuse for doing so is simply staggering. How on earth did he think that would play out in the media and the public at large? Not a chance in hell for the same thing to happen had the circumstances been the other way around and Webber's nose mountings failed.

I believe that people around the world like to see fair play in sport, indeed that is the very nature of sport. People take an instant dislike to the manipulation of an event or when one competitor has been disadvantaged in some way and hasn't had a fair crack of the whip. The public and the media will often rally to the call of the underdog in these situations. Webber is playing this card well and Horner and RBR have no response to this because people have see the evidence with their own eyes and made a judgement on that in favour of Webber. In RBR it may be Vettel, Horner, Marko and Newey in one corner but Webber has the media in his and that can be enough, especially when you are dealing with a team that is so image concious.

Horner's radio message to Webber at the end of the race was so patronising as to be untrue.

Eddie Jordan really pressed Horner after the race about what has gone on and the situation within the team. I have critised Jordan in the past for his ramblings but on this occasion he struck home. He basically said to Horner that he didn't believe him when he said that he was pleased for Webber to win. Nice one EJ.

RBR has created this situation all by itself, they can't blame the driver for what they're facing. A driver will drive the car as fast as he can and try to beat his competitors, whether they be his team mate or the rest of the field. Horner must be worried about his positon in the team because it is his lack of management and discipline that has created this problem. Webber and Vettel will come together again before the end of the season, you can just feel it.

As for where would Webber go if there was a total breakdown in the relationship with RBR, how about MGP? Schumi out at the end of the season? If he doesn't perform any better in the second half of the season will he want to continue? Will they want to continue with him? What is it proving other than even the greats have a sell by date.

As a brand it might not be too bad as everyone is talking about them inside and outside the sport and they are pictured a great deal, so their profile has been raised. Mission accomplished there. Everything else is a complete dog's breakfast.

Tchau.

Nah. The RBR situation has been blown out of all proportion by the English press to undermine RBR, give an edge to their Macca boys, and cover their arses for lying about past favoritims.

It's just smoke... not that it will matter. RBR will get as much as it got last season.

EDIT: typo.

Edited by maure

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Webber made himself look like a whiner. Issues like this should be kept within the team and not aired in public. It reinforces how self centered Webber is and he does not fully appreciate the car and team he has to get him in front. It is not new, many drivers are by nature ego-maniacs and self centered, thus airing grievances in public. Too few drivers really appreciate what a team did for them..... thinking a lot about Williams Team and unappreciative drivers like Damon Hill, Nigel Mansel, Jacques Villeneuve who had huge car advantages to win world championships, but still believe it was them and their outstanding skills. Webber has made a fool of himself for complaining about a wing that he originally did not think was an advantage. yes, most teams have #1 and #2, but usually unspoken in public. When you go public with whining, like Webber, and Ruebens at Ferrari, it just make you look small. I think RB is going through what McLaren went through with Hamilton and Alonso which required that be ended. Now, if Webber really thinks he is getting short-changed and demeaned, he needs to look at his options which will put him where Reubens was when he left Ferrari....nowhere.... He can be a close #2 and win races, or he can be #1 and rarely see the podium.

First of all, welcome. I've been ill and away from the forum.

Some good points. All F1 drivers are one-dimensional, self-centred egoists - it's a job requirement. They also whine a lot, although the best ones don't do it in public. I always used to say, the really great drivers could always get results in bad cars. I have to qualify that by saying it isn't so any more and hasn't been for some years. They're not driving cars any more, they are piloting hi-tech skips on wheels. The emphasis isn't on wringing the neck of the beast, it's now on 'thinking' your way through a race; making the right strategy calls, not the correct gear changes. I also have to agree with some of what you say about teams 'gifting' poor drivers a WDC through the benefit of a great car. Hill and Villeneuve certainly fit that glove but Mansell showed quite clearly that he could drive anything fast, even an Indy car. Webber's situation is a no-brainer. He won't win a WDC anywhere other than RBR and he should shut up and put up. He has nothing to fear from Vettel. He just isn't ready yet.

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Webber even from his Williams days has been a whiner, the big chip on his shoulders kind of attitude he carries around. It's annoyed me in the past, and for sure he has had some bad luck too in races, but so have countless other drivers too. I've seen him more in the oh woe is me, I deserve better frame of mind than being comfortable in his own skin. He always looks uneasy, almost edgy to me. Sure he speaks his mind, but there is speaking ones mind in a tactful way, and then there's Webber's approach which is more akin to putting your foot in your mouth. Rather than jump on the he's just an Aussie, speaking his mind smokescreen, he was a total idiot for venting his frustrations in public. No team, the management in particular, are going to tolerate one of their employees acting in an almost insolent manner.

I guess he feels he's got nothing to lose at this point, but he does. What is going on in his head if he's to think the world revolves around him? He's probably only one year out from retiring, so why on earth would RBR then focus all their attention and talent towards him? Doesn't it make sense they would after having spent money and time to nurture Vettel, that they might want him to succeed? If that's favoritism, then so be it. There's nothing wrong with that. The only sad part is Vettel is making a mess of things on the track. RBR havn't asked Webber to pull over to let Vettel win a race like the dark old Ferrari days now have they.

Webber is in a very fortunate position, and through not controlling himself or being more diplomatic will now be on the outer in the team I imagine. And really he's got nowhere else better to go. For real, does anything actually think Ferrari or McLaren would be giving him a call? There were rumours of this some months back, but only as a #2 at Ferrari. He's had his chances, no matter how much bad luck and slow cars he's driven. You make your own luck in this game.

It's easy when you're winning races to get a big head and then think you're the sh#t. I bet deep down Rubens regrets leaving Ferrari. At least being a #2 you could win a race here and there. Webber has way more freedom than Rubens ever did too. But I do think the writing is on the wall now for Webber unless he realises he's not the preferred choice at RBR for a WDC. There's nothing illegal or wrong with that. Ferrari clearly want Alonso to succeed, Renault for Kubica. I think we can all agree that the #2s in both of those teams are there to get points for the constructors, not to act like prima donas and feel the whole team needs to revolve around them. Now he may not be thinking that, but by judging his actions and words it feels that way to me.

I used to feel sorry for Webber and wish him better luck from years past with breakdowns, bad luck and bad cars, but this guy will always have a chip on his shoulder. He should learn a thing or two from Coulthard I feel. At least he was happy in his life, Webber just looks miserable and I don't feel you can blame RBR for all of that.

Edited by KoolMonkey

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Horner is young and silly! The F1 manager position is a little big for him. And Vettel is overrrated by the team.

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Horner is young and silly! The F1 manager position is a little big for him. And Vettel is overrrated by the team.

Horner would only be silly if you aqaute the wing decision to be originating from him. Most of what I've read leads to it coming from above him, which would take us to Marko or Mateschitz. Vettel isn't overated, he's just no matured yet as a racer. He's fast, but has lots to learn.

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:lol:

Well that's very interesting if the wing allocation was made by Marko and/or Mateschitz, two German-speakers. I've always said Vettel was over-rated - sure he's a fast driver but he's not beaten Webber very convincingly, and Webber isn't one of the best imho. Vettel makes even more mistakes than Fernando. It's quite amazing what has been said in public during this spat but, in the end, Webber isn't quite as 'passionate' as Alonso (no doubt this is part of why the Spaniard is a much better driver) so it's unlikely to degenerate to the level of McLaren in 2007.

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:lol:

Well that's very interesting if the wing allocation was made by Marko and/or Mateschitz, two German-speakers. I've always said Vettel was over-rated - sure he's a fast driver but he's not beaten Webber very convincingly, and Webber isn't one of the best imho. Vettel makes even more mistakes than Fernando. It's quite amazing what has been said in public during this spat but, in the end, Webber isn't quite as 'passionate' as Alonso (no doubt this is part of why the Spaniard is a much better driver) so it's unlikely to degenerate to the level of McLaren in 2007.

If you're willing to do the effort and do some research you'll find Vettel doing way less mistakes than Alonso :P

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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I saw the race on TV from Sky+ when I got home at 8am. I had to laugh at Vettel's thundercloud (so wanted to say another word then dribs!) Face.

Mark opened his mouth. But then he backed it up with a win. So, moan and whine away. But he's answered his critics and proved himself right. End of story.

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Everybody has their own opinion on this. I already stated mine in the race thread: Webber doesn't need to speak out because he has the measure of a still inexperienced Vettel at the moment - he should consult the team privately regarding these matters. Speaking out may help him gain the favour of the media and fans but it's never going to help his position in the team; and Horner's mis-management of the intra-team politics ensures everybody (fans, media) is going to be on Webber's side regardless.

Also, I love Sniff Petrol:

http://sniffpetrol.c...as-right-again/

http://sniffpetrol.c...uzzle-revealed/

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Horner is young and silly! The F1 manager position is a little big for him. And Vettel is overrrated by the team.

I'll second that.

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Horner is young and silly! The F1 manager position is a little big for him. And Vettel is overrrated by the team.

Horner and Vettel were put there for a reason, a very good one, in my opinion. Yes they'll make blunders, but I think they'll still reign supreme, come season end.

If super-models fall over on the cat walk, everyone notices, that's all.

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Ah, Red Bull. They are going to lose both championships if they carry on like this. It made me smile after that comment when Mark said "We're all big boys".

Yeah? Well. Show it.

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Ah, Red Bull. They are going to lose both championships if they carry on like this. It made me smile after that comment when Mark said "We're all big boys".

Yeah? Well. Show it.

Boys don't get much bigger than the ones who cross the line first, don't you think?

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As a colonial schmuck I think it be best I put my 2-cents worth in....

What he said IS very Australian, and in this part of the world, quite the norm from rugby to cricket to league to motorsport. People around here speak their mind and will make back handed comments because we aren't all poofy PC ponses.

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A driver we like is outspoken, not a PR drone, and tells things the way they are.

A driver we don't like is not a team player, is arrogant and should just shut the **** up and drive.

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A driver we like is outspoken, not a PR drone, and tells things the way they are.

A driver we don't like is not a team player, is arrogant and should just shut the **** up and drive.

Naturally. Then again, I like Webber yet I still think he could play the game better than he has.

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A driver we like is outspoken, not a PR drone, and tells things the way they are.

A driver we don't like is not a team player, is arrogant and should just shut the **** up and drive.

Ahh see thats what Webber is though...a team player....he is just stating that there is no favouritism in a TEAM. And if you gotta say it to the world to get the point across, then so be it.

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Naturally. Then again, I like Webber yet I still think he could play the game better than he has.

Of course he could, if I was to rate his managing of the situation I would rate him a 6/10. Credits for not letting himself being nominated a de facto number 2 driver in silence, minus the fact that he did it in such an antagonistic way that he will certainly hurt his chances of improving his situation in the future

On the other hand, he just reacted to a situation that was managed a 3/10 by the team. >Your cars are the fastest out there by a mile FFS! Give them both the same wing, don't switch it or if you had to, just sit with Webber, eplain things thoroughly (he will never be a favorite over Vettel, in any case, as he lacks both the career future and the Germanic past). It is only natural that a team will eventually end up picking a favorite driver. It is stupid when they keep claiming that they are all innocent and that favoritism is "that thing the other teams do".

So, what Webber did was bad for the team, and bad for his career chances at RBR. But it was immensely refreshing and fun for me. As I am not part of the team, noir Webber's accountant, I will just cheer him by.

Go Webbo, you tell'em! :D

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Ahh see thats what Webber is though...a team player....he is just stating that there is no favouritism in a TEAM. And if you gotta say it to the world to get the point across, then so be it.

Bah, just shut the **** up and drive, Craig :P

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