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Medilloni

German Gp Of Deutschlandenhausen

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Thank you. Sense is free but hard to find. I have to agree, Georgie and Andres, and a few others have all demonstrated fine points.

Well, medilloni makes a huge error in that comparison. In 07, McLaren had been screwing up all season to the point that even RD had come out and said that they were racing _against_ Alonso. FIA acted very, very late on that matter... as per the script. Besides which, McLaren was at an all time bottom in terms of honesty credit having stolen from Ferrari and, by the time of the events medilloni describes, still lying about it.

It's not possible to claim that _that_ situation has anything to do with Ferrari today. It's so preposterous as to be egest stuff.

Let me ask a question. If it was Alonso who slowed down for Massa, would there be such an outcry?

Funny.

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Meds raised what I only dared to touch upon (mostly to avoid repeating past arguments, which I know isn't your intention but is probably inevitable on here).

Is it not the reason why Andrés says for George's sake so often? :lol:

I wish I could change the record. I think Ferrari/Alonso deserved the win, but not this way. They aren't better, nor worse, than McLaren, Red Bull... They were in urgent need of as many points as possible but they should get a serious warning at the WMSC telling them not to do it ever again and I wouldn't complain if they give the win (and the 25 points :byebye: ) to Massa.

It is precisely the reason! I agree with the rest although I do think Ferrari are certainly dumber than the rest.

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Funny.

Let's play your game.

Please provide _ABSOLUTE_PROOF_ that there were team orders at Ferrari.

If you cannot provide _ABSOLUTE_PROOF_, your claims are no more than a conspiracy theory.

No maure, I'm not playing a game, I expressed my opinion as do you, and I respect your opinion on this subject.

Like yourself, and I, others have also expressed their opinion based on their interpretation of today's events, yet you haven't asked for 'proof' from them. Your request is as intelligent as me asking for you to provide proof that there wasn't team orders.

If you regard my post as a conspiracy theory, or something you're in disagreement with, then that's OK. Life's too short.

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Lewisterics aside, one has to wonder what actually happened. If Ferrari wanted to fix the race, they did it poorly. Massa could've pretended to outbrake or whatever. As it is being told, Alonso saw an opportunity due to an error on Massa's part... but that just needs to be the official script. No sense in saying otherwise.

I agree. There were so many ways that the swap could have happened without creating this ruckus.

The reason this has become an FIA and media circus is because it was handled so poorly on track and on radio. This happened because Massa did not want to do it, resisted reasonable efforts, then made it obvious when he finally did give the position up. Then he and his engineer were obvious about sulking about it to the public and on the radio.

If Massa didn't want to do it, he should never have agreed to be a #2 driver at Ferrari which he obviously has done. He made the deal with the devil and then doesn't want to part with his soul when ole' Scratch comes collecting. :contract:

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On a tangential note:

It's funny how teams resort to desperate underhanded tactics when they get Alonso.. there's something about him that compels a team into desperate action to do whatever they can to support him. It's probably because Alonso is acquired when a team has become desperate to do whatever they can to win.

Stepney-gate with McLaren, Fix-Gate with Renault and now swap-gate with Ferrari.

They gots the Alonso Fever!!!

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In '07 McLaren had an FIA official 'allocated' to them to check that all was fair between FA and LH. Which other team has had this unique degree of scrutiny applied to them to ensure 'fair play' was dished out? Would FA be happy with such a situation now?

In 2007 it was just in Brazil, last race of the season, that Carlos Gracia, a d#ckhead in my opinion, Head of the Spanish Motorsport Council (or whatever its name is) was at McLaren as FIA representative. In 2007 McLaren didn't have any interest in the Constructor's Championship, as you probably know they were penalised and banned from it, does it mean they undermined Alonso in Q3 at the Chinese GP? No. Did Ron Dennis say they were racing Alonso at the Chinese GP? Yes. Team orders or not, Ferrari still have a very big interest in the Constructor's Championship and so this makes it a completely different situation.

I don't think draconian measures is the answer, it's making F1 quite unattractive for fans and sponsors. Proportinal and adequate measures is the right answer every time, always, forever. Amen. A serious warning and a fine should be enough. And swap Alonso/Massa If you want, even if I think Alonso would have passed Massa if Ferrari had told him to manage his own race alone. If you really want to make it harder for the teams to use team orders ban pit radio during the race. They're going to do it in cycling because they realised teams were interfering with cycling too much.

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No maure, I'm not playing a game, I expressed my opinion as do you, and I respect your opinion on this subject.

Like yourself, and I, others have also expressed their opinion based on their interpretation of today's events, yet you haven't asked for 'proof' from them. Your request is as intelligent as me asking for you to provide proof that there wasn't team orders.

If you regard my post as a conspiracy theory, or something you're in disagreement with, then that's OK. Life's too short.

You are right, of course.

Plus, I've had an epiphany. You might not give a damn but I'll tell you anyway: I'm gonna take the forums a bit more seriously. The reason is because I've given up on the English press. Since forever, I've relied on them for F1 news. However, since 07, they are a shadow of themselves at best. Interestingly (to me), my decision to move on has been brought about as a natural consequence of something else, namely, the decision to block out the lewisterics. It started as a joke but the forum suddenly cleaned up. Then, I had no use for the English press to find out where the lewisterics got their yelps, hymns, and mantras. Last, I've given 4 years to the English press to put themselves back together again. They haven't. I'm done with them.

So, I'm moving on and, without the lewisterics and the English press, I've got no choice but to expose a bit more flank.

Here it is, then.

FIA does not want team orders in order to prevent Schumacher's and Hamilton's situations _in_other_teams_, that is, they want other teams to lie better. I say its irrelevant. A team has interests and, right or wrong, constructive or destructive, they are going to follow them. To require that teammates race each other in teams other than McLaren (and Ferrari in the Schumacher era) is wishful thinking.

Massa came back and out of nowhere with a great drive. Unfortunately, he didn't have the common sense to bring it to a close. His (and his engineer's) stupid handling of the affair will have consequences. Stupid consequences because it is impossible to prove anything. The chances that anyone at Ferrari said explictly to Massa, "let Alonso pass" are very very low. Thus, no investigation can properly accuse Ferrari of anything. Sure, FIA is a joke and will do as it pleases but that is another matter.

Vettel should've been penalized for the start. Watch the replay and do it carefully. That brutality is the kind of thing FIA should be concerned with. Vettel put his and the lives of fellow drivers at risk.

I said before that this is what allowing Hamilton to do as he wants will eventually bring blood to the track. Vettel is on now. The next generation of drivers is heading in the wrong direction. Just watch them.

Pity, Hamilton was _not_ the best driver in F1 history... but he could've become it. Same applies to Vettel. That train has left the station.

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I agree. There were so many ways that the swap could have happened without creating this ruckus.

The reason this has become an FIA and media circus is because it was handled so poorly on track and on radio. This happened because Massa did not want to do it, resisted reasonable efforts, then made it obvious when he finally did give the position up. Then he and his engineer were obvious about sulking about it to the public and on the radio.

Indeed... and Massa might have just earned the pleasure of having to find another drive next season.

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In 2007 it was just in Brazil, last race of the season, that Carlos Gracia, a d#ckhead in my opinion, Head of the Spanish Motorsport Council (or whatever its name is) was at McLaren as FIA representative. In 2007 McLaren didn't have any interest in the Constructor's Championship, as you probably know they were penalised and banned from it, does it mean they undermined Alonso in Q3 at the Chinese GP? No. Did Ron Dennis say they were racing Alonso at the Chinese GP? Yes. Team orders or not, Ferrari still have a very big interest in the Constructor's Championship and so this makes it a completely different situation.

For sure, it is (a completely different situation).

I don't think draconian measures is the answer, it's making F1 quite unattractive for fans and sponsors. Proportinal and adequate measures is the right answer every time, always, forever. Amen. A serious warning and a fine should be enough. And swap Alonso/Massa If you want, even if I think Alonso would have passed Massa if Ferrari had told him to manage his own race alone. If you really want to make it harder for the teams to use team orders ban pit radio during the race. They're going to do it in cycling because they realised teams were interfering with cycling too much.

Draconian measures are tradition in F1.

In all truth, the problem with FIA is not how severe their punishing system is. Rather, their problem is that it is not fair... and it is not fair because they don't apply equally to everyone.

If they did, no one would complain. Since they don't, everyone complains... the moment anyone _else_ scratches funny. The rule-of-thumb is "shake FIA and see what falls off."

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Wow you posted so much I missed the part I wanted to quote. Anyways, I was about to comment on Verttel's manoeuver at the start as well.

In short, if we put aside the whatever-they-will-call-it-gate and recall the rest of the race I have:

- A rather average race.

- A beautiful, albeit too short, battle between Kubica and Schumi.

- An amazing chaos with the backmarkers at one point.

- Vettel's move on Alonso at the start: And this is where I want to focus now...nobody saying anything? We have been calling these moves "dangerous", "criminal", "deserving of a penalty" and blah blah blah a thousand times when the guy that performed it was Schumi/Alonso/Lewis...Suddenly they got safer? Think about it next time a driver squeezes another against a wall ;)

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Vettel should've been penalized for the start. Watch the replay and do it carefully. That brutality is the kind of thing FIA should be concerned with. Vettel put his and the lives of fellow drivers at risk.

I said before that this is what allowing Hamilton to do as he wants will eventually bring blood to the track. Vettel is on now. The next generation of drivers is heading in the wrong direction. Just watch them.

I totally agree.

In all truth, the problem with FIA is not how severe their punishing system is. Rather, their problem is that it is not fair... and it is not fair because they don't apply equally to everyone.

True, I should have said proportional, adecuate and consistent.

If they did, no one would complain. Since they don't, everyone complains... the moment anyone _else_ scratches funny. The rule-of-thumb is "shake FIA and see what falls off."

:lol:

- Vettel's move on Alonso at the start: And this is where I want to focus now...nobody saying anything? We have been calling these moves "dangerous", "criminal", "deserving of a penalty" and blah blah blah a thousand times when the guy that performed it was Schumi/Alonso/Lewis...Suddenly they got safer? Think about it next time a driver squeezes another against a wall ;)

As maure said they're calling for blood on the track. And you can't solve your bad start screwing up others'.

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- Vettel's move on Alonso at the start: And this is where I want to focus now...nobody saying anything? We have been calling these moves "dangerous", "criminal", "deserving of a penalty" and blah blah blah a thousand times when the guy that performed it was Schumi/Alonso/Lewis...Suddenly they got safer? Think about it next time a driver squeezes another against a wall ;)

I agree, Vettel is a great driver but he doesn't handle traffic well. He wins by getting pole and then making out of turn 1 in the lead, and otherwise he starts to fall apart.

There are some skills he does not yet have in his repertoire -- the kind that come with maturity and further experience in the top flight.

Vettel seems like he's been running ppl off the road a lot so far in the mid-season, the moves are drastic and seem uncalled for. He also goes for bold opening moves that don't work as well in F1 as they did in the lesser formulae. I was at his first race in Indy 2007 and he went wide in turn 1 because he was getting too aggressive and expecting people to respect his moves like they probably did when he was karting.

His frustration is surely getting to him, and it is costing him points as well as the respect of his peers and the fans.

If he had stuck to his line during this race, he would only have lost 1 place to Alonso, and not 2 places, and he would likely have brought it all the way home in second place. That's a championship mentality...

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I agree that Vettel's move at the start was dangerous, and I wish we were talking about that. I also would have enjoyed watching Alonso put FM under incredible pressure. There was a time you would put relentless pressure on the driver ahead until he made a mistake. Those are the days of racing that I miss. It seems like these guys just want people to move out of the way. Does anyone demonstrate any real race craft anymore??? Watching Massa defend his position was brilliant while it lasted. I would have loved to have seen 20 laps of that. Maybe the pressure would have got to Massa and he would have made a mistake, and if he didn't make a mistake then it would have been a measure of his race craft to keep the faster Alonso behind him. As fans we were cheated.

Too Bad.

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There is a pic around the net somewhere that shows how very close Vettel pushed Alonso to the wall. I'm talking about cm's. Imagine the incredible crash that would've caused with everyone else coming behind at top accelerating speed.

If Ferrari were better placed in the championship or at least Massa, then, sure, bring on the fight. However, as I said, Massa spoiled his own earned merits... and that's just stupid.

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I agree that Vettel's move at the start was dangerous, and I wish we were talking about that. I also would have enjoyed watching Alonso put FM under incredible pressure. There was a time you would put relentless pressure on the driver ahead until he made a mistake. Those are the days of racing that I miss. It seems like these guys just want people to move out of the way. Does anyone demonstrate any real race craft anymore??? Watching Massa defend his position was brilliant while it lasted. I would have loved to have seen 20 laps of that. Maybe the pressure would have got to Massa and he would have made a mistake, and if he didn't make a mistake then it would have been a measure of his race craft to keep the faster Alonso behind him. As fans we were cheated.

Too Bad.

I agree it was a great dice there when Massa got held up by traffic. Quality driving from his part to fend Alonso off. Then FA made a slight mistake going for the inside of a turn that he shouldn't have, and Massa closed the door. that was FA's only legit opportunity to pass the whole race.

Honorary race victory all the way. Honestly if I was in the place of Ferrari's decision makers, and I wasn't able to get Felipe to 'fake it' in a plausible way on track, I would have just let Massa take this one home, then take him to task in the back room and make sure he's straightened out for the rest of his contract from here on out. He knows his duty was to let Alonso pass in circumstances that look plausible -- like getting held up in traffic, a bad turn into a long straightaway, or in the pits -- and he didn't do his duty. So Ferrari should take their lumps instead of trying to force the issue at the last minute like they did.

Unwise...

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R.I.P. Sebastian Vettel, killed by the media. All Hail (not) Sebastian Vettel, born from the expectations and the pressure.

Dammit, I liked that kid >.<

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To be honest, I missed that Vettel's move on Alonso! :D......

but as I am reading about other bad comments on Vettel, I think I have to defend the young lad...he is just too young, there are other drivers on the grid with ten times his experience doing ten times worse than him. Give the kid a break...he needs a few season to be a matured and adapt according to changing conditions.

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So why did they not give Lewis the same chance?

Lewis showed a rook could smoke out a world champion. If Vettel's as good as everybody says he is, he'll be champion this year. So relax dude. Chill man. Don't lose your cool. Running out of stupid stuff to say now. Bye!

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R.I.P. Sebastian Vettel, killed by the media. All Hail (not) Sebastian Vettel, born from the expectations and the pressure.

Dammit, I liked that kid >.<

Funny but nope. Vettel will survive this. He had to fight to get here (unlike others). His chances of making it are good. The only question is _how_ he will do it. If he continues the Hamilton way... well, it won't be pretty... as it isn't now.

EDIT: typo

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Nah, nah, nah, what bothers me is that he was (or seemed) 10 times as mature when he was younger! Dammit >.<

I still quite like him, of course, that's why I hate to see him do things like what he did to Alonso last race.

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Wow you posted so much I missed the part I wanted to quote. Anyways, I was about to comment on Verttel's manoeuver at the start as well.

In short, if we put aside the whatever-they-will-call-it-gate and recall the rest of the race I have:

- A rather average race.

- A beautiful, albeit too short, battle between Kubica and Schumi.

- An amazing chaos with the backmarkers at one point.

- Vettel's move on Alonso at the start: And this is where I want to focus now...nobody saying anything? We have been calling these moves "dangerous", "criminal", "deserving of a penalty" and blah blah blah a thousand times when the guy that performed it was Schumi/Alonso/Lewis...Suddenly they got safer? Think about it next time a driver squeezes another against a wall ;)

Indeed. I've thought Vettel has been a tad aggressive from the start a few times now. I think he tried to squeeze Webber out from the start at the last race, didn't he? I guess when he's won a championship or more, then it will start becoming dangerous :whistling::lol:

I know Schumi used to angle his car on the grid, though he never seemed quite as aggressive once underway, but that could be bias on my part. I guess we have to atrribute this to Schumi as he was the first once I can remember doing it and now quite a few drivers angle their cars on the grid, especially on the front row. However, not that many go really aggressive once started, so I guess the ones who are aggressive would do it anyway, regardless of who did it first.

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To be honest, I missed that Vettel's move on Alonso! :D......

but as I am reading about other bad comments on Vettel, I think I have to defend the young lad...he is just too young, there are other drivers on the grid with ten times his experience doing ten times worse than him. Give the kid a break...he needs a few season to be a matured and adapt according to changing conditions.

I missed it too as I was following the race on an internet stream and had to refresh it just at the start of teh race, I got the signal back when the BBC commentators where saying "two Ferrari's on the lead" I thought it was Alonso-Massa and it took me a time to figure out that it was Massa the one on the lead.

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Horner laments 'manipulated' race

By Edd Straw and Pablo Elizalde Monday, July 26th 2010, 11:15 GMT

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner says it is a "great shame" that Formula 1 fans were offered a "manipulated" race in Germany.

Ferrari's Fernando Alonso won the Hockenheim race but only after his team talked to team-mate Felipe Massa on the radio and suggested he should let him through.

Moments later, Massa slowed down and Alonso took the lead.

Horner says the sport was the big loser and feels Ferrari had no reason to do what it did.

"It's a great shame for Formula 1 that the race was manipulated to give one driver a victory over the other," Horner told AUTOSPORT.

"We came in for a lot of criticism in Istanbul for allowing our drivers to race but I think that it's the fair and sporting thing to do.

"The only losers today are Formula 1. Ferrari are a big enough team that they shouldn't need to do that and Fernando is a good enough driver not to particularly at this point in the season when there are still hundreds of points available."

Horner admitted he felt sorry for the fans who missed the opportunity to see Ferrari's drivers racing each other.

"It's a great shame. Ferrari are a great team," he said. "It's a shame for Formula 1 that they didn't allow Felipe and Fernando to race each other. There are not so many points between them and it was so obvious how they moved the cars around.

"The biggest losers are the fans, the spectators, the viewers as a race win was handed to Fernando. Rightly or wrongly, we've allowed our drivers to race because we believe that's the sporting thing to do and it also is within the regulations.

"The regulation was introduced for a reason, to stop exactly this situation happening. The FIA has all of the facts and it was done in such an obvious way and it would be a great shame if it's left unpunished because it sets a precedent that is wrong for F1," added Horner, speaking before Ferrari was fined $100,000 and referred to the WMSC.

The good part of all this situation is that these guys (Ferrari and Alonso) are the ones that were accusing FIA a few races ago of manipulating the race, ins't this what is called Double Standards around here or what? :naughty:

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I agree that Vettel is over aggressive at times, probably due to his inexperience, but I can't agree that his move at the start yesterday was particularly dangerous (in the context of racing). F1 drivers have great spatial awareness, Vettel knows where Alonso is in relation to the wall when he squeezes him just like Ayrton Senna knew when he did it to Prost and Hamilton knows when he does it to everybody. That's hard racing to me and putting limits on that kind of thing would be terrible because it would neutralise the most interesting part of the race (the start). Maybe it was due to the whole race fixing controversy but I didn't hear anybody (including ex racers Brundle and DC, or Alonso although he was a bit busy) criticise Vettel for his start on the grounds of aggression; they just said he'd be better off going in a straight line after a poor start rather than swerving, which is true.

Vettel just needs to work on his judgement at certain times when he's wheel to wheel as it seems to be his major weakness. He needs to know when to show aggression and when not to.

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