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Medilloni

German Gp Of Deutschlandenhausen

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Massa has now just confirmed to the British press that it was his decision to move over. He said that looking incredibly uncomfortable, then when asked about team orders he pretended he hadn't heard the question.

It's clear he knows he's talking a load of balls, and this is all very sad. Again.

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Massa hasn't lied. There are no team orders. If you cannot do the race(Ferrai said slow down) the you have to think about the team.

Massa simply needs to say that he was demoralized by the radio call and the lack of faith the team showed in him, and lost focus and desire. End of story. I wish I was His PR guy right now.

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Domenicalli is the guy at the top, so he is the main culprit. Other than that, here's my theory fwiw: he pressured Smedley to give the order to Massa. Rob, being Massa's most loyal ally, probably worded it in the most obvious manner possible not so much as for Massa to get it, but as to make clear that he did not agree. Massa acted the same way blatantly giving the place to Alonso. In the end, it all goes back to Domenicalli, if he wanted Massa to move over, he should have issued the order himself, or let the guys race. No championship is worth this.

Now, the FIA might have no arguments to consider this as a blatant team order (if they decide to stick to the cold wording of the rules), but it is still a shameful spot (yet another) in Ferrari's history. I'd rather had Alonso losing to Massa than watch him winning this way. As usual in these cases, Napoleon's words come to mind: "It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder"

Agree.

Domenicalli is the main culprit, but maybe he was happy with a 1-2 in any order and it was Montezemolo who told him to do it. If you have to do something that you don't agree with it's quite hard to do it properly. It's even harder if a driver and his race engineer want to make it obvious.

I disapprove of what I saw today. Alonso fans should be ashamed of this outcome, and make no mistake Alonso wanted this gift, and demanded it.

Massa is a good driver and a great Human being. Without doubt one of the classiest guys on the track. He made no doubt about what transpired on the track. Alonso tried feeding us a line of BS, shame on him. You are not good enough to pass Massa on the track, so you let your contract do it for you.

All emotions aside this was the best result for the team. They still got 1& 2 and the driver with the highest points standing between the two got awarded the win(Contract stipulation no doubt)

I learned to hate Schumacher for this very thing, and now Alonso can be painted with the same brush. The honor of racing is F1 is lost with results like this.

Because Alonso finshed 4 seconds in front, the steward will have to concede that Alonso was faster, and nothing will be done. However, saying your sorry means you did someting wrong, and that might get ferrari in a pile of hot water. I guess we will see.

If you are an Alonso fan you might want to lay low. From a fan perspective this is does nothing for Alonso except help him lose respect. I was an Alonso fan and I do think he is a great driver, but his ridiculus comments on the radio when he didn't have the race skill to pass Massa, and then his feeble attempt of FM making a mistake to allow him to pass is just sad.

What was going to be a great race and a battle of team mates, turned in to a sad display of "team orders".

Maybe it would be good for the FIA to take points away from Ferrai.

If Massa is a waste of a Ferrari seat, as some claim what the heck does that make Alonso. It apears if Massa has the defense skills to hold off a double world Champion. I thought Massa was brilliant today. Defending his position until the car played back to him, and then pulled out a commanding lead. No way in a fair fight was Alonso going to get by Massa today.

Well Done Massa. One more race and one more classy example of being a paid professional. Let the act speak for itself, don't throw crap at your team mate or team. Your value as a team driver and man are without equal in today's F1.

A mix of truth and hatred but I understand your point.

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You will have to include Massa in your count...

From Autosport:

This is also a reply to YHR. This is Massa's chance to stand up. If that is his final word, then he chose the path of Rubinho.

All this just underlines how much dignity Webber had when he put his foot down on the wing issue.

You have to understand that Redbull and Ferrari work in completely different ways. Ferrari would never sign a driver like Lewis or Mark. Even if they do, before they sign the contract, you can imagine a fat guy standing behind them with a gun pointing to their head with hair combed back telling them ' you mek ah mistake ayee keel' so for sure they wouldn't dare to call Stefano and tell them, ' not bad for a no2'

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Massa has now just confirmed to the British press that it was his decision to move over. He said that looking incredibly uncomfortable, then when asked about team orders he pretended he hadn't heard the question.

It's clear he knows he's talking a load of balls, and this is all very sad. Again.

He still hasn't lied. He is driving the car, it was his decision to let Alonso by. Still this sucks for the guy.

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Stefano is now saying that Rob Smedley's apology was saying sorry that the tyres werent working well (which made him struggle compared to Alonso).....

Massa's face after the race tells us all we need to know, its not the face of someone who's tyres were graining, its the face of a driver who knew he had a race victory in the bag & had to move over for the benefit of Alonso & the team

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You have to understand that Redbull and Ferrari work in completely different ways. Ferrari would never sign a driver like Lewis or Mark. Even if they do, before they sign the contract, you can imagine a fat guy standing behind them with a gun pointing to their head with hair combed back telling them ' you mek ah mistake ayee keel' so for sure they wouldn't dare to call Stefano and tell them, ' not bad for a no2'

Why not?

Let's picture the worst scenario: Massa ignores the order or, worse yet, does what he did and then let everybody know that it was a blatant team order, ridiculising Ferrari. What would be the worst that could happen to him? Being kicked off from the team? Bad thing for his career, but not by that much. He would have probably be promptly hired by some other team, unless everybody else would not trust him but...why? Because they all also have team orders and don't want a driver like him? (In any case, I don't think that would happen, I think that some other team would quickly snatch him scandal or not). Of course, that other team will never be Ferrari, they might even pay less than Ferrari but..would that be worse than looking like the puny lackey he looks like now? Is it worth it? I'd say Alonso's win was not worth it, but the guy at least walked home with the big cup. But what about Massa?

He does not need the money, nor the Ferrari seat so badly as to endure such indignity. If he choses so, he choses so freely. Rubinho did the same and in the end he only got some of his dignity back when he walked away from the team.

Massa should either walk away or expose the farce. Lowering his head is not being a team player, is just being a poor lackey. And poor lackeys can't complaint for having to do a poor lackey's work :P

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I know what you mean but Alonso thought Massa had some sort of problem, he wasn't aware of what was going on. Maybe he knew soon after he saw Massa's face.

Alonso asked, after the finish of the race, but while he was still in the car, whether Massa was ok with it. I presume he was talking about being asked to move over. I can't think why else he would ask that question.

Yup, that disproves my theory that Rob was being smarter than his team management. Maybe they all actually thought that they could pull this out unharmed???

I thought Rob Smedley was brilliant. Obviously he was lying, but at least he put some thought into it and delivered a convincing alternative. If everyone in Ferrari had been as smart then there would be no question to answer.

You will have to include Massa in your count...

From Autosport:

This is also a reply to YHR. This is Massa's chance to stand up. If that is his final word, then he chose the path of Rubinho.

All this just underlines how much dignity Webber had when he put his foot down on the wing issue.

Come on, be fair, it's still his team after all and if he says anything more then he risks causing problems for his own engineers, mechanics, etc.

I agree about Webber, but there is a difference in that there is no rule whatsoever that says you can't change swap the wings on your cars. So if he says anything about it then there is no outside enforcement that could cause any problems for the team. However, in this case if Massa says too much then Ferrari could potentially be hit hard.

Regarding, the actual 'team' manoeuvre then, to be honest I am with the teams on this one, it's their team they should be able to do what they want, within reason, with their employees. However, there are ways of going about it and this wasn't the way. I mean having a flaming code word or phrase for crying out loud, like Rob saying 'Geez my bollocks are itchy' or something. They pay these team members millions and nobody is intelligent enough to think about that?? Bollocking hell.

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Regarding, the actual 'team' manoeuvre then, to be honest I am with the teams on this one, it's their team they should be able to do what they want, within reason, with their employees. However, there are ways of going about it and this wasn't the way. I mean having a flaming code word or phrase for crying out loud, like Rob saying 'Geez my bollocks are itchy' or something. They pay these team members millions and nobody is intelligent enough to think about that?? Bollocking hell.

Yes, I see your point regarding the other replies you gave.

As for this one. I completely agree with you. Banniing team orders is stupid and pointless. But at the same time I think that then we would have these blatant manoeuvres race after race and it would also seem a rip off. Unless F1 is turned more into a "team" sport. Which could actually be a good thing.

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I know what you mean but Alonso thought Massa had some sort of problem, he wasn't aware of what was going on. Maybe he knew soon after he saw Massa's face.

I don't think even you yourself really believe that. Of course Alonso knew what was going on, and one can't blame him, he is driving there to win. However, instead to telling such blatant lies afterwards, he could just come out and say "I was faster but was not able to pass him. However, we as a team felt like I have a better chance at challenging for the WDC so given that we had more or less secured the 1-2 finish, it was preferable that I take the win." When he keeps claiming that he never has any idea about the decisions the team makes that always happen to benefit him, one starts to wonder just how much he knew about the crash-gate in advance after all... He is a great driver, but all these things makes one not want to cheer for him.

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Agree.

Domenicalli is the main culprit, but maybe he was happy with a 1-2 in any order and it was Montezemolo who told him to do it. If you have to do something that you don't agree with it's quite hard to do it properly. It's even harder if a driver and his race engineer want to make it obvious.

A mix of truth and hatred but I understand your point.

??? Hatred???? what the heck are you on about.

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Yes, I see your point regarding the other replies you gave.

As for this one. I completely agree with you. Banniing team orders is stupid and pointless. But at the same time I think that then we would have these blatant manoeuvres race after race and it would also seem a rip off. Unless F1 is turned more into a "team" sport. Which could actually be a good thing.

Indeed, there is definitely that downside to it, I completely agree. It's not an easy situation, that's for sure.

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Why not?

Let's picture the worst scenario: Massa ignores the order or, worse yet, does what he did and then let everybody know that it was a blatant team order, ridiculising Ferrari. What would be the worst that could happen to him? Being kicked off from the team? Bad thing for his career, but not by that much. He would have probably be promptly hired by some other team, unless everybody else would not trust him but...why? Because they all also have team orders and don't want a driver like him? (In any case, I don't think that would happen, I think that some other team would quickly snatch him scandal or not). Of course, that other team will never be Ferrari, they might even pay less than Ferrari but..would that be worse than looking like the puny lackey he looks like now? Is it worth it? I'd say Alonso's win was not worth it, but the guy at least walked home with the big cup. But what about Massa?

He does not need the money, nor the Ferrari seat so badly as to endure such indignity. If he choses so, he choses so freely. Rubinho did the same and in the end he only got some of his dignity back when he walked away from the team.

Massa should either walk away or expose the farce. Lowering his head is not being a team player, is just being a poor lackey. And poor lackeys can't complaint for having to do a poor lackey's work :P

Massa has already exposed the farce. I just hope he watches what he says to keep his integrity intact. Maybe missing a gear shift was the result of being demoralized. Perhaps his a## was itchy, and he needed to shift his weight, and just couldn't get on the gas quick enough.

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I don't think even you yourself really believe that. Of course Alonso knew what was going on, and one can't blame him, he is driving there to win. However, instead to telling such blatant lies afterwards, he could just come out and say "I was faster but was not able to pass him. However, we as a team felt like I have a better chance at challenging for the WDC so given that we had more or less secured the 1-2 finish, it was preferable that I take the win." When he keeps claiming that he never has any idea about the decisions the team makes that always happen to benefit him, one starts to wonder just how much he knew about the crash-gate in advance after all... He is a great driver, but all these things makes one not want to cheer for him.

He can't say that because that would be admitting team orders and professional suicide. I agree it would be be better if he said something like I have no idea what happened, he was slow out of the corner and I passed him. However, we can't always think of the best reponse when put under a bit of pressure.

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Some comments about the German GP.

Vettel can´t deal with pressure. He is fast but inmature. Another ruined pole position and was at a mere cm to make another "strike" as with WEBBO at the start.

For sure thing were different for this race at RedBull. Ask Webbo and see his car performance...

Ferrari started to think as a team -like it or not- is the same Macca is doing for tha last races. Will Jense fight Lewis again? Noop this year!

Massa is back. Since his accident is the first time he drove like a runner up F1 driver.

Vettel should be warned for his move at the start of the race.

Kovalainen destroyed DeLaRosa´s race; thanks Max for the present! We are watching a whole year of GP2 cars -or moving chicanes if you prefer- like HRT, Virgin and Lotus. But Lotus with its illustrious name and experienced drivers is the worst team off all: Trulli and Kovi make mistake after mistake and teh car is a piece of sheet!

Who ruined Hockenheim? This track is for go karts not for F1 cars.

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May be she did read....clearly the guys on the opposite side are her friends and ofcourse as a friend she stands by them....she is their friend after all...

Nothing to do with that, Shaliq. Are we not friends either? Have I not added you to Facebook and laughed and joked with you?

The fact is, truth hurts. I don't care if you call Maure a Sh#thead chasing his own c#ck. But indirectly isn't very nice.

Besides, we're enemies on the weekends, so shut up and join my new Buttonofosi fan club. I'll make you member of the month. :lol:

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on a more happier note i'm sat in my boxers watching 'kiss me through the phone' by soulja boy on the music channel - WHAT a tune

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Looks like Ferrari is given a $100000 fine for team orders. They could at least also swap Alonso and Massa around to make things right and to negate the result of the illegal action.

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Looks like Ferrari is given a $100000 fine for team orders. They could at least also swap Alonso and Massa around to make things right and to negate the result of the illegal action.

Thats £64,700. Thats crap. They were found guilty, so surely the result (being the result of the crime) shouldn't stand. Because now Ferrari are guilty of committing a crime but get to keep the points anyway, so why even fine them.

Its like finding a burglar guilty of burglary but telling him he can keep everything he took!

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Thats £64,700. Thats crap. They were found guilty, so surely the result (being the result of the crime) shouldn't stand. Because now Ferrari are guilty of committing a crime but get to keep the points anyway, so why even fine them.

Its like finding a burglar guilty of burglary but telling him he can keep everything he took!

Indeed. I would imagine the teams would quite happily take a $100,000 hit every time they wanted to change the running order.

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Thats £64,700. Thats crap. They were found guilty, so surely the result (being the result of the crime) shouldn't stand. Because now Ferrari are guilty of committing a crime but get to keep the points anyway, so why even fine them.

Its like finding a burglar guilty of burglary but telling him he can keep everything he took!

Looks like FIA will also take this matter to the motor sports world council, so there may be additional sanctions too.

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Nothing to do with that, Shaliq. Are we not friends either? Have I not added you to Facebook and laughed and joked with you?

The fact is, truth hurts. I don't care if you call Maure a Sh#thead chasing his own c#ck. But indirectly isn't very nice.

Besides, we're enemies on the weekends, so shut up and join my new Buttonofosi fan club. I'll make you member of the month. :lol:

was just provoking you.....:naughty: this is how I turn a heated topic in my favour....mind games you know..how a certain driver called Alonso does....:P

Besides.....I never wanted to call Maure all those names.....I have even appologized some months back...perhaps a a year back...but he kept using some not so plesant words...he will deny it for sure..as usual.....but if we dig the garbage, we can suerly find some rotten stuffs...

Button sucked today.....I thought he will make a move on struggling Lewis...infact, Button drove so smoothly he made us belive he was just cruising...

OKay okay...am going for a nap...

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Why not?

Let's picture the worst scenario: Massa ignores the order or, worse yet, does what he did and then let everybody know that it was a blatant team order, ridiculising Ferrari. What would be the worst that could happen to him? Being kicked off from the team? Bad thing for his career, but not by that much. He would have probably be promptly hired by some other team, unless everybody else would not trust him but...why? Because they all also have team orders and don't want a driver like him? (In any case, I don't think that would happen, I think that some other team would quickly snatch him scandal or not). Of course, that other team will never be Ferrari, they might even pay less than Ferrari but..would that be worse than looking like the puny lackey he looks like now? Is it worth it? I'd say Alonso's win was not worth it, but the guy at least walked home with the big cup. But what about Massa?

He does not need the money, nor the Ferrari seat so badly as to endure such indignity. If he choses so, he choses so freely. Rubinho did the same and in the end he only got some of his dignity back when he walked away from the team.

Massa should either walk away or expose the farce. Lowering his head is not being a team player, is just being a poor lackey. And poor lackeys can't complaint for having to do a poor lackey's work :P

Everyone has Team orders, we have to live with it, or stop watching F1. I agree....but in my opinion, it is still too early to use it, secondly Massa was driving well..As I said earlier, he is one of the best drivers when it comes to defending position....its guys like Alonso who these days seem to crack.....like complaining over the radio and so on.....shows the difference between that class between him and his rivals.. well....I am looking forward for the next race, lets hope, who ever wins it, wins in a fair manner.....

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First bolded bit: I agree 100%.

Second bolded bit: Today in the last stages JB was closing in very fast on Lewis and he was told to "save fuel", something I am sure he had more than plenty, compared with LH, considering how they usually drive, and this hasn't been the first time. So, I don't think they don't hvae team orders, is just that they are more polite at issuing them :D

Whether or not you're right about the relative fuel consumption rates, and I'm not sure you are, I think it's a bit more than just greater politeness and tact. They make much more of an effort to genuinely treat drivers as equals imho. Of course they are not perfect but my view is that they do have a more equal set up than most teams, and after what we've seen from Red Bull and Ferrari recently, I don't see how that could really be disputed. But then I'm a Lewisteric. :P

I don't think even you yourself really believe that. Of course Alonso knew what was going on, and one can't blame him, he is driving there to win. However, instead to telling such blatant lies afterwards, he could just come out and say "I was faster but was not able to pass him. However, we as a team felt like I have a better chance at challenging for the WDC so given that we had more or less secured the 1-2 finish, it was preferable that I take the win." When he keeps claiming that he never has any idea about the decisions the team makes that always happen to benefit him, one starts to wonder just how much he knew about the crash-gate in advance after all... He is a great driver, but all these things makes one not want to cheer for him.

Yes this is the second time in the last few races that I've thought you hit the nail on the head. I've never had a problem with Massa or Alonso - I respect them both, albeit for different reasons - but my issues are with some of their respective fans. How anyone could think that Alonso didn't know he was being let through thanks to team orders boggles my mind. Same with Massa - he's lying as much as Alonso and everyone else at Ferrari.

Now, to preempt the obvious and rather boring objections I will get: no, I'm not saying they are worse liars than anyone else; nor that the team was right or wrong. But it does seem silly for fans to go around saying Felipe and Fernando don't cheat or lie and are the fairy godmothers of professional sport when it's clear as can be that they cheated and lied today.

Massa is back. Since his accident is the first time he drove like a runner up F1 driver.

:lol:

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