German Gp Of Deutschlandenhausen

[JHS 1]

Oh wow. Even in a race that probably wasn't the best in terms of action, we have something to chew fat over until the cows come home. Or at least till the next race.

Okay, my views.

So, was Ferrari right to do what they did? No, I don’t think so. I found it very insensitive on the part of Ferrari, I’m sure nobody, whoever they choose to support, would have had a bad word to say if Massa had won that race on the anniversary on the day that he nearly died last season. I don’t think Ferrari would need reminding of that date either, and on the basis that Felipe got to the first corner first and was generally quicker throughout most the race than Fernando, for sure he 100% deserved it. If Fernando wanted to win that race, go out and pass the guy!

However. Do I think any further penalty should be added to the one that has already been applied? Again, no. That might be a controversial view, but I’m amazed at the uproar that has come from ‘Team orders in F1 shocker’. Team orders have and sadly always will be in this sport, no matter whatever penalty the FIA chooses to give. As long as there are two cars in a team and a championship to win, by definition one driver is probably doing better than the other, and it makes perfect sense to get behind the driver that is doing better for the team, albeit that there is a clear distance between the two drivers in the championship.

Okay, so Ferrari right royally screwed up today. But, this is not the only case of team orders that there has been this year, and surprise surprise, there hasn’t been this big a row about them. Look at McLaren in Turkey, telling Button to back off thus allowing Hamilton to win and then blaming high fuel consumption? Like heck it was. Look at Red Bull in Turkey too, up to the point they collided, remember that Vettel had been told to turn his engine up and Webber to turn his engine down. They’ll have their excuses, saying that Vettel was under pressure from the McLarens and that Mark had too high consumption, but again, like heck it was. Both those accounts are examples of team orders alright.

It’s a shame this race turned out the way it did, but I don’t find it that amazingly shocking. I’d have liked Massa to win today, but it’s entirely logical to believe that every team in contention for a race win or championship at some point will use team orders in order to benefit the team to the maximum. It just appears like Ferrari needs lessons from those teams in how to make it less blatantly obvious.

I personally think they’ll get away with this in terms of punishment from the FIA. I have a feeling that they way Alonso dropped some three seconds behind Massa at one point, then charged up to him rapidly and set those consecutive fastest laps once past will be enough evidence to show the stewards and everyone that wishes to care, that yes, Fernando was indeed faster. The only problems for them is how they explain what “happened” to Massa, whether they choose to say he made a mistake or whatever, and also how to deal with the PR disaster they’ve created upon themselves and the lashing they’ll get from the media and the fans. But, if any team can recover from this, it’s Ferrari. They didn’t become the most popular team in F1 by already surviving their fair share of controversy.

[AleHop 0]

Yes this is the second time in the last few races that I've thought you hit the nail on the head. I've never had a problem with Massa or Alonso - I respect them both, albeit for different reasons - but my issues are with some of their respective fans. How anyone could think that Alonso didn't know he was being let through thanks to team orders boggles my mind. Same with Massa - he's lying as much as Alonso and everyone else at Ferrari.

Reading what some people say about it I have watched a different race, or you're being harsh on Alonso once again. Maybe I missed most of the important moments of the race, they show more ads than racing and I could not listen most of the pit radio conversations. In fact I only heard Smedley telling Massa something like: Alonso is faster than you, can you confirm you understood the message?

I wish we could freely have all the radios not just what someone decides to show during the race, it would be interesting in days like today.

[Insider 0]

There has always been team orders in F1 and always will be, irrespective of regulations. Some team may get caught, others won't. Massa has already gone on record saying he is happy to be the No.2 at Ferrari. He probably has a clause in his contract stipulating that if he is holding Alonso up, he must let him pass. He needs to move to a team like Williams, who will respect him. The FIA will do sweet FA.

[AleHop 0]

Oh wow. Even in a race that probably wasn't the best in terms of action, we have something to chew fat over until the cows come home. Or at least till the next race.

Okay, my views.

So, was Ferrari right to do what they did? No, I don’t think so. I found it very insensitive on the part of Ferrari, I’m sure nobody, whoever they choose to support, would have had a bad word to say if Massa had won that race on the anniversary on the day that he nearly died last season. I don’t think Ferrari would need reminding of that date either, and on the basis that Felipe got to the first corner first and was generally quicker throughout most the race than Fernando, for sure he 100% deserved it. If Fernando wanted to win that race, go out and pass the guy!

However. Do I think any further penalty should be added to the one that has already been applied? Again, no. That might be a controversial view, but I’m amazed at the uproar that has come from ‘Team orders in F1 shocker’. Team orders have and sadly always will be in this sport, no matter whatever penalty the FIA chooses to give. As long as there are two cars in a team and a championship to win, by definition one driver is probably doing better than the other, and it makes perfect sense to get behind the driver that is doing better for the team, albeit that there is a clear distance between the two drivers in the championship.

Okay, so Ferrari right royally screwed up today. But, this is not the only case of team orders that there has been this year, and surprise surprise, there hasn’t been this big a row about them. Look at McLaren in Turkey, telling Button to back off thus allowing Hamilton to win and then blaming high fuel consumption? Like heck it was. Look at Red Bull in Turkey too, up to the point they collided, remember that Vettel had been told to turn his engine up and Webber to turn his engine down. They’ll have their excuses, saying that Vettel was under pressure from the McLarens and that Mark had too high consumption, but again, like heck it was. Both those accounts are examples of team orders alright.

It’s a shame this race turned out the way it did, but I don’t find it that amazingly shocking. I’d have liked Massa to win today, but it’s entirely logical to believe that every team in contention for a race win or championship at some point will use team orders in order to benefit the team to the maximum. It just appears like Ferrari needs lessons from those teams in how to make it less blatantly obvious.

I personally think they’ll get away with this in terms of punishment from the FIA. I have a feeling that they way Alonso dropped some three seconds behind Massa at one point, then charged up to him rapidly and set those consecutive fastest laps once past will be enough evidence to show the stewards and everyone that wishes to care, that yes, Fernando was indeed faster. The only problems for them is how they explain what “happened” to Massa, whether they choose to say he made a mistake or whatever, and also how to deal with the PR disaster they’ve created upon themselves and the lashing they’ll get from the media and the fans. But, if any team can recover from this, it’s Ferrari. They didn’t become the most popular team in F1 by already surviving their fair share of controversy.

I agree, but even if I didnt yours would be the best post about the German GP so far.

[hookedon-f1 0]

<br />Oh wow. Even in a race that probably wasn't the best in terms of action, we have something to chew fat over until the cows come home. Or at least till the next race.<br /><br />Okay, my views.<br /><br />So, was Ferrari right to do what they did? No, I don’t think so. I found it very insensitive on the part of Ferrari, I’m sure nobody, whoever they choose to support, would have had a bad word to say if Massa had won that race on the anniversary on the day that he nearly died last season. I don’t think Ferrari would need reminding of that date either, and on the basis that Felipe got to the first corner first and was generally quicker throughout most the race than Fernando, for sure he 100% deserved it. If Fernando wanted to win that race, go out and pass the guy!<br /><br />However. Do I think any further penalty should be added to the one that has already been applied? Again, no. That might be a controversial view, but I’m amazed at the uproar that has come from ‘Team orders in F1 shocker’. Team orders have and sadly always will be in this sport, no matter whatever penalty the FIA chooses to give. As long as there are two cars in a team and a championship to win, by definition one driver is probably doing better than the other, and it makes perfect sense to get behind the driver that is doing better for the team, albeit that there is a clear distance between the two drivers in the championship. <br /><br />Okay, so Ferrari right royally screwed up today. But, this is not the only case of team orders that there has been this year, and surprise surprise, there hasn’t been this big a row about them. Look at McLaren in Turkey, telling Button to back off thus allowing Hamilton to win and then blaming high fuel consumption? Like heck it was. Look at Red Bull in Turkey too, up to the point they collided, remember that Vettel had been told to turn his engine up and Webber to turn his engine down. They’ll have their excuses, saying that Vettel was under pressure from the McLarens and that Mark had too high consumption, but again, like heck it was. Both those accounts are examples of team orders alright. <br /><br />It’s a shame this race turned out the way it did, but I don’t find it that amazingly shocking. I’d have liked Massa to win today, but it’s entirely logical to believe that every team in contention for a race win or championship at some point will use team orders in order to benefit the team to the maximum. It just appears like Ferrari needs lessons from those teams in how to make it less blatantly obvious. <br /><br />I personally think they’ll get away with this in terms of punishment from the FIA. I have a feeling that they way Alonso dropped some three seconds behind Massa at one point, then charged up to him rapidly and set those consecutive fastest laps once past will be enough evidence to show the stewards and everyone that wishes to care, that yes, Fernando was indeed faster. The only problems for them is how they explain what “happened” to Massa, whether they choose to say he made a mistake or whatever, and also how to deal with the PR disaster they’ve created upon themselves and the lashing they’ll get from the media and the fans. But, if any team can recover from this, it’s Ferrari. They didn’t become the most popular team in F1 by already surviving their fair share of controversy.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Well said, have to agree with you here.

I do feel sorry for Massa the win meant a lot to him considering that it's the 1 year anniversary of the crash.

Well done Massa

[Schumikonen 2]

I read it quite clearly. You were being a bitch. Its that simple.

Now be nice before I give you extra homework and detention after class.

I have to say this. You haven't a clue how Maure is. If you took the time to get to know him you'd find one of the kindest, honest and most decent humans on the planet. I'm sure you are too. And I am not kidding when I tell you that. On the bible.

I'll be nice for now I am on vacation until Wednesday and I don't want any homework.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

There has always been team orders in F1 and always will be, irrespective of regulations. Some team may get caught, others won't. Massa has already gone on record saying he is happy to be the No.2 at Ferrari. He probably has a clause in his contract stipulating that if he is holding Alonso up, he must let him pass. He needs to move to a team like Williams, who will respect him. The FIA will do sweet FA.

Maybe today, because in Reutemann vs. A. Jones days was very different ...and pays a lot less...

[Rainmaster 7]

An extremely boring race where as far as I can remember there were only two points of interest, the first was Kubica's neat defence to Schumacher at the hairpin (a lesson in defending), and the second is the controversy everyone is discussing here (a lesson in stupidity?). I might as well give my take on the latter :

It was clearly a blatant example of team orders (practically begging to be penalised). Whether you agree with the call or not (was it really worth an extra 7pts for Alonso?), there can be no arguments about how poorly it was done. It is obvious that a race engineer should not have to be giving such orders to his driver because of the emotional bond. Smedley was always going to make it obvious. Also, why don't Ferrari have a better "code word" for this kind of thing?

Again, as has been said, I think every team down the pitlane does this kind of thing (team orders) but much more politely than Ferrari. Saying that, I seriously doubt if Mclaren or even Red Bull would give that type of team order; obviously there have been times when they have called off an attacking driver ("fuel saving mode") but to me (and the FIA I believe), calling off an attack is different to choreographing a pass. In any event the net result is the same - the fans are robbed of genuine racing.

I really don't agree with the criticisms being levelled at Alonso. Firstly, he was hardly celebrating on the podium he actually looked quite downbeat to me. Secondly, any team orders are the responsibility of the team and I don't blame Alonso for going past Massa or even suggesting it to the team - he is a 'comptetive animal' as Dennis once said and I expect him to use everything available to get ahead. It is the responsibility of the team not to have such options available to Alonso. Nor do I blame either driver for their defence of the situation in the press conference; they are employees, they have little choice but to defend the actions of their employer. People actually expect Massa to have an outburst and jeopardise his career even more so?

There is a big difference between criticising your team for a decision you don't like (e.g. Webber) and criticising your team for a blatant contravention of the rules which could get them into serious trouble. So I understand Massa trying to keep a lid on it*. Okay, you can argue that they are lying and it's really terrible etc etc, but this is no ethics committee they are lying to, it is just a press conference about a bunch of guys who drive fast. Their lying hardly has any moral implications so I don't see why anyone can criticise either of them in this instance, especially when Massa made it extremely clear in the press conference what had happened, without directly saying it.

*Also, I'd guess that Massa's contract has something in it regarding his status in the team. A lot of people were a little surprised when that got renewed and it wouldn't surprise me if Massa accepted a 2 year deal whereby if he was behind Alonso at a certain point in the season he becomes a number 2.

As for a punishment, well I see Ferrari have already been fined some pocket change. Is that a good enough deterrent to prevent this kind of team orders again? Time will tell. I certainly don't see what else the FIA/WMSC can apply. They can't switch the positions around again because for all we know, Alonso may have passed Massa anyway. If they apply a penalty it would have be to both drivers (takes two to tango) and that would seem unfair. My guess is it will just be the fine (or a greater fine from the WMSC) and maybe some constructor's points.

As for the issue of team orders in the sport, I agree with DC: they have always been there, always will be, and it is very difficult to police them except in such exceptionally stupid circumstances which only Ferrari can provide lately. The conflict is that we have an individual drivers championship where each man is out for themselves and there should be hard racing (which is what the media and fans like), but there is a team championship too and the teams want the best for themselves, which isn't hard racing between their two drivers. As long as we have 2 driver teams, that conflict will always exist.

On a positive note, at least Alonso didn't try and push Massa onto the top step

Lastly, I must admit it is interesting to see how those who were and are so critical of Mclaren, especially about 2007, are coping with this one I wonder if everyone will start to treat Ferrari and Domenicalli (sp?) in the same way they treated Mclaren and Dennis.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I really don't agree with the criticisms being levelled at Alonso. Firstly, he was hardly celebrating on the podium he actually looked quite downbeat to me. Secondly, any team orders are the responsibility of the team and I don't blame Alonso for going past Massa or even suggesting it to the team - he is a 'comptetive animal' as Dennis once said and I expect him to use everything available to get ahead. It is the responsibility of the team not to have such options available to Alonso. Nor do I blame either driver for their defence of the situation in the press conference; they are employees, they have little choice but to defend the actions of their employer. People actually expect Massa to have an outburst and jeopardise his career even more so?

great analytical post from the prof...as always. but you forgot 1 thing, Alonso over the radio saying this is ridiculous when he could'nt pass. Yes, alonso was faster, but he could'nt pass, which is the essence of proper RACING

[Rainmaster 7]

great analytical post from the prof...as always. but you forgot 1 thing, Alonso over the radio saying this is ridiculous when he could'nt pass. Yes, alonso was faster, but he could'nt pass, which is the essence of proper RACING

Yep, and I don't disagree with that. I also don't see how it relates to my post? I would've much preferred Alonso to have kept on trying to pass Massa without any extra help or interference. The fact Alonso complains in the car is for me only evidence of his desire to win and frustrations at being stuck behind a lesser, slower driver*. You can't blame Alonso for a decision by the team, even if Alonso wanted the decision and gained from it.

Sometimes I play a game online, I get competitive and moan a lot when I'm losing, but I always accept if I've been beaten fairly and because someone is genuinely better (and it is easy to tell). I think Alonso is the same and the problem is that he knows he's better than Massa, and knows he's been better all weekend. The difference is in my game, when you're better you can win, in F1, when you're better you still can't overtake a lot of the time or it's extremely difficult on some circuits (hence the existence of team orders).

[Ikyrotz 0]

Yep, and I don't disagree with that. I also don't see how it relates to my post?

I think what Brad means is that Alonso, with his "ridiculous" comment, was telling the team that Felipe should let him pass. In that sense Alonso is not just an innocent beneficiary of the team order, but actively contributed to it. However, it of course is completely understandable that Alonso will use any means at his disposal to get ahead, he is there to win, after all, and you can't blame him for that.

[Rainmaster 7]

I think what Brad means is that Alonso, with his "ridiculous" comment, was telling the team that Felipe should let him pass. In that sense Alonso is not just an innocent beneficiary of the team order, but actively contributed to it. However, it of course is completely understandable that Alonso will use any means at his disposal to get ahead, he is there to win, after all, and you can't blame him for that.

Yep, you can't blame Alonso for asking for it, and you can't blame him for Ferrari giving the order. It's somewhat understandable to level other criticisms which are related to Ferrari's order at Alonso, e.g. "Alonso can only win from team orders" or "Alonso can't pass" or whatever (as misguided as those would be) but it isn't fair to put the criticism "Alonso forced Massa to slow down and let him through" on Alonso because he isn't the team manager and didn't make the decision. Only Massa and Ferrari are responsible for the actions of Massa when driving a Ferrari. The fact Alonso asked for the decision doesn't extinguish Ferrari's responsibility for it, either.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I think what Brad means is that Alonso, with his "ridiculous" comment, was telling the team that Felipe should let him pass. In that sense Alonso is not just an innocent beneficiary of the team order, but actively contributed to it.

correct, that what I meant..thanks

[Kopite Girl 0]

was just provoking you..... this is how I turn a heated topic in my favour....mind games you know..how a certain driver called Alonso does....

Besides.....I never wanted to call Maure all those names.....I have even appologized some months back...perhaps a a year back...but he kept using some not so plesant words...he will deny it for sure..as usual.....but if we dig the garbage, we can suerly find some rotten stuffs...

Button sucked today.....I thought he will make a move on struggling Lewis...infact, Button drove so smoothly he made us belive he was just cruising...

OKay okay...am going for a nap...

Dude, dude, dude. Lesson one. Trick your opponent into letting him believe he's won. Once their guard is down, strike.

I'm not striking. Yet.

Congrats on the win!

Mind games? :lol: :lol: :roll:

How sweet!!

[Quiet One 15]

An extremely boring race where as far as I can remember there were only two points of interest, the first was Kubica's neat defence to Schumacher at the hairpin (a lesson in defending), and the second is the controversy everyone is discussing here (a lesson in stupidity?). I might as well give my take on the latter :

It was clearly a blatant example of team orders (practically begging to be penalised). Whether you agree with the call or not (was it really worth an extra 7pts for Alonso?), there can be no arguments about how poorly it was done. It is obvious that a race engineer should not have to be giving such orders to his driver because of the emotional bond. Smedley was always going to make it obvious. Also, why don't Ferrari have a better "code word" for this kind of thing?

Again, as has been said, I think every team down the pitlane does this kind of thing (team orders) but much more politely than Ferrari. Saying that, I seriously doubt if Mclaren or even Red Bull would give that type of team order; obviously there have been times when they have called off an attacking driver ("fuel saving mode") but to me (and the FIA I believe), calling off an attack is different to choreographing a pass. In any event the net result is the same - the fans are robbed of genuine racing.

I really don't agree with the criticisms being levelled at Alonso. Firstly, he was hardly celebrating on the podium he actually looked quite downbeat to me. Secondly, any team orders are the responsibility of the team and I don't blame Alonso for going past Massa or even suggesting it to the team - he is a 'comptetive animal' as Dennis once said and I expect him to use everything available to get ahead. It is the responsibility of the team not to have such options available to Alonso. Nor do I blame either driver for their defence of the situation in the press conference; they are employees, they have little choice but to defend the actions of their employer. People actually expect Massa to have an outburst and jeopardise his career even more so?

There is a big difference between criticising your team for a decision you don't like (e.g. Webber) and criticising your team for a blatant contravention of the rules which could get them into serious trouble. So I understand Massa trying to keep a lid on it*. Okay, you can argue that they are lying and it's really terrible etc etc, but this is no ethics committee they are lying to, it is just a press conference about a bunch of guys who drive fast. Their lying hardly has any moral implications so I don't see why anyone can criticise either of them in this instance, especially when Massa made it extremely clear in the press conference what had happened, without directly saying it.

*Also, I'd guess that Massa's contract has something in it regarding his status in the team. A lot of people were a little surprised when that got renewed and it wouldn't surprise me if Massa accepted a 2 year deal whereby if he was behind Alonso at a certain point in the season he becomes a number 2.

As for a punishment, well I see Ferrari have already been fined some pocket change. Is that a good enough deterrent to prevent this kind of team orders again? Time will tell. I certainly don't see what else the FIA/WMSC can apply. They can't switch the positions around again because for all we know, Alonso may have passed Massa anyway. If they apply a penalty it would have be to both drivers (takes two to tango) and that would seem unfair. My guess is it will just be the fine (or a greater fine from the WMSC) and maybe some constructor's points.

As for the issue of team orders in the sport, I agree with DC: they have always been there, always will be, and it is very difficult to police them except in such exceptionally stupid circumstances which only Ferrari can provide lately. The conflict is that we have an individual drivers championship where each man is out for themselves and there should be hard racing (which is what the media and fans like), but there is a team championship too and the teams want the best for themselves, which isn't hard racing between their two drivers. As long as we have 2 driver teams, that conflict will always exist.

On a positive note, at least Alonso didn't try and push Massa onto the top step

Lastly, I must admit it is interesting to see how those who were and are so critical of Mclaren, especially about 2007, are coping with this one I wonder if everyone will start to treat Ferrari and Domenicalli (sp?) in the same way they treated Mclaren and Dennis.

As usual, TP, you got it all wrapped up.

(I'm running out of TP jokes here...somebody help me!)

[Rainmaster 7]

As usual, TP, you got it all wrapped up.

(I'm running out of TP jokes here...somebody help me!)

Why thank you! Please don't worry, I'm sure you will come up with some more

[AleHop 0]

It was interesting reading today's post-race press conference. The only valuable question/answer was to/from Vettel, but it was quite good to have his point of view, even if he was not aware of all the details. He didn't drop the question, he answered quite frankly and maturely.

http://www.formula1....10/7/11072.html

Q. (Miran Alisic – Korpmedia) I have a question for Sebastian. I think you had some not similar but close situations with Mark as well. Do you feel proud that what has happened at Ferrari today hasn't happened in your team?

SV: Don't you have another question maybe? Yeah, maybe they should have crashed. I don't know, I haven't seen the incident. I was too far back. I always saw them going into the hairpin when I was coming out of turn five, so I don't know what you're all talking about. I can guess but I don't know. For sure my advice would not be it's better to crash because also then you get a lot of questions that you have to answer so... Yeah, for me I was focusing on my own race and trying to do my thing, trying to stay close enough, trying to get closer, trying to put them under pressure. It didn't work, so I'm not pleased with that. No matter who you race, it's always difficult in Formula One to pass people and sometimes you have to take a lot of risk. When you don't have to race your team-mate, you're racing for the team, both of you, both drivers and on the other hand everyone looks for his own advantage. We had a couple of situations this year in our team, so it's quite a comedy that we are not in focus at this stage but life changes quickly, so… It's never wise to say anything that you might regret. Maybe in a week's time. I'm happy where we are now, as a team. Again, I can only repeat that from the outside there was more of a fuss made than there was inside. I can assure you that Mark and myself are always looking to do our best but on top of that, I think we understood many times this year that the team is the main priority and we are racing for the team, in the end. We don't get our cheque from you guys, we get it from the team. I think that's something we always have to respect.

Some journalists are working as prosecutors but it's good. Well, it would be good if they did it always like this to show Ferrari/Alonso (and all the others) that it's not worth it to win like this. They should have done it every time since Austria 2002... The firing squad is ready... 8 years later.

Ferrari will regret it, it's too much hassle. As maure said, drop the spic.

Lastly, I must admit it is interesting to see how those who were and are so critical of Mclaren, especially about 2007, are coping with this one I wonder if everyone will start to treat Ferrari and Domenicalli (sp?) in the same way they treated Mclaren and Dennis.

I liked your post so much, not as much as Jame's , and you ruined it in the end.

Thank God Domenicalli didn't say we were racing Massa.

I think what Brad means is that Alonso, with his "ridiculous" comment, was telling the team that Felipe should let him pass. In that sense Alonso is not just an innocent beneficiary of the team order, but actively contributed to it. However, it of course is completely understandable that Alonso will use any means at his disposal to get ahead, he is there to win, after all, and you can't blame him for that.

I'd like to have all the pit-radio conversations, they didn't show most of them in Spain or it happened during a commercial break. It seems the race today was more about what they said than about what they did racing. I don't agree with the last sentence, it's not by any means or it shouldn't be it. I'd like to have the radio conversations, teams don't want teammates racing and I heard Alonso and Massa nearly crashed at some point of the race, commercial breaks again, so I suppose Ferrari were worried enough to tell Alonso not to attack Massa.

[maure 1]

Unsurprisingly, lewisterics cry a river... forgetting that Hamilton first betrayal of McLaren was precisely over the same issue, team orders. There is Monaco 07 for anyone who cares. Sure, Hamilton was proven a liar then (the first of many times) but he has accused McLaren of fixing many races... and, definitely, we all know of quite a few he hasn't complained about because team orders were to his advantage.

Lewisterics aside, one has to wonder what actually happened. If Ferrari wanted to fix the race, they did it poorly. Massa could've pretended to outbrake or whatever. As it is being told, Alonso saw an opportunity due to an error on Massa's part... but that just needs to be the official script. No sense in saying otherwise.

So, on the whole, whatever. Just this season, we've seen far, far, far worse from other drivers/teams and FIA.

The good news is that Ferrari can race which is fantastic (within the script). Also, a great race by Massa that has been nowhere this season... heck, his more interesting work was his inexplicable renewal.

EDIT: typos

[Rainmaster 7]

I liked your post so much, not as much as Jame's , and you ruined it in the end.

Thank God Domenicalli didn't say we were racing Massa.

Why you little! Anyway, the question is, have you changed the record now Alonso has won? Remember, I hoped he would win and all of a sudden he did, even though Massa was ahead. Bow to me!

[mikathegreat2 2]

the man is such a pain to the team it seems to have been forbidden to show up at all) and a Brit as teammate, McLaren is at a loss...

But McLaren lick him dry!!

but he has accused McLaren of fixing many races.

Which ones??

[maure 1]

But McLaren lick him dry!!

Meaning?

Which ones??

If you need to ask... there is little point.

Still, Monaco and Hungary 07 are classics... and don't forget that in the 2nd case, Hamilton did manage to get McLaren penalized. In Australia 09, Hamilton got someone fired to save his arse on account of, again, his claim of team orders. Counterpoint, in US 07, Hamilton won due to team orders.

Now make an effort and find the whole lot yourself...

[Medilloni 6]

In '07 McLaren had an FIA official 'allocated' to them to check that all was fair between FA and LH. Which other team has had this unique degree of scrutiny applied to them to ensure 'fair play' was dished out? Would FA be happy with such a situation now?

There's been some great reading in this thread (thanks TP, QO et al), and yes, it can be said that we often see double standards in our sport, but I have never seen such draconian measures applied to any other team as McLaren received. Why not now?

Paint me with any brush you like, but what happened today, at such an early part of the season (erm, about half way ffs) doesn't warrant this type of team behaviour IF FOTA have listened to the fans as they say they have.

Fernando is a truly great racing driver, an absolute pleasure to watch.... though now he really he needs to man-up. If the championship was a bull fight, he's asking for too many swords to be stuck in the bull, imo.

[AleHop 0]

Why you little! Anyway, the question is, have you changed the record now Alonso has won? Remember, I hoped he would win and all of a sudden he did, even though Massa was ahead. Bow to me!

Is it not the reason why Andrés says for George's sake so often?

I wish I could change the record. I think Ferrari/Alonso deserved the win, but not this way. They aren't better, nor worse, than McLaren, Red Bull... They were in urgent need of as many points as possible but they should get a serious warning at the WMSC telling them not to do it ever again and I wouldn't complain if they give the win (and the 25 points ) to Massa.

[maure 1]

In '07 McLaren had an FIA official 'allocated' to them to check that all was fair between FA and LH. Which other team has had this unique degree of scrutiny applied to them to ensure 'fair play' was dished out? Would FA be happy with such a situation now?

There's been some great reading in this thread (thanks TP, QO et al), and yes, it can be said that we often see double standards in our sport, but I have never seen such draconian measures applied to any other team as McLaren received. Why not now?

Paint me with any brush you like, but what happened today, at such an early part of the season (erm, about half way ffs) doesn't warrant this type of team behaviour IF FOTA have listened to the fans as they say they have.

Fernando is a truly great racing driver, an absolute pleasure to watch.... though now he really he needs to man-up. If the championship was a bull fight, he's asking for too many swords to be stuck in the bull, imo.

Funny.

Let's play your game.

Please provide _ABSOLUTE_PROOF_ that there were team orders at Ferrari.

If you cannot provide _ABSOLUTE_PROOF_, your claims are no more than a conspiracy theory.

[Kopite Girl 0]

In '07 McLaren had an FIA official 'allocated' to them to check that all was fair between FA and LH. Which other team has had this unique degree of scrutiny applied to them to ensure 'fair play' was dished out? Would FA be happy with such a situation now?

There's been some great reading in this thread (thanks TP, QO et al), and yes, it can be said that we often see double standards in our sport, but I have never seen such draconian measures applied to any other team as McLaren received. Why not now?

Paint me with any brush you like, but what happened today, at such an early part of the season (erm, about half way ffs) doesn't warrant this type of team behaviour IF FOTA have listened to the fans as they say they have.

Fernando is a truly great racing driver, an absolute pleasure to watch.... though now he really he needs to man-up. If the championship was a bull fight, he's asking for too many swords to be stuck in the bull, imo.

Thank you. Sense is free but hard to find. I have to agree, Georgie and Andres, and a few others have all demonstrated fine points.

Let me ask a question. If it was Alonso who slowed down for Massa, would there be such an outcry?