Medilloni

German Gp Of Deutschlandenhausen

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Funny.

Let's play your game.

Please provide _ABSOLUTE_PROOF_ that there were team orders at Ferrari.

If you cannot provide _ABSOLUTE_PROOF_, your claims are no more than a conspiracy theory.

HA! This is hilarious, no offence but you're surely the king of making wild accusations against McLaren/Hamilton with barely any evidence, let alone proof!

You were referring to Hamilton's 'lie' scandal which, although inexcusable, is totally irrelevant to the subject of team orders is it not? You referred to Monaco 07 & Hamilton's actions there - from my memory, he was told to hold station behind Alonso and he got angry about it, he didnt gain anything from team orders, so I dont understand your point.

And forgive me for asking to please remind me of USA GP 2007 cos I can't remember - please elaborate. No doubt I will strongly disagree, but we all love a good debate.

Edit: sorry maure I've just realised (looking again) that your previous post was being sarcastic & that you weren't seriously asking for absolute proof. I apologise for saying it was hilarious. Peace

Edited by jemstride

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I agree that Vettel is over aggressive at times, probably due to his inexperience, but I can't agree that his move at the start yesterday was particularly dangerous (in the context of racing). F1 drivers have great spatial awareness, Vettel knows where Alonso is in relation to the wall when he squeezes him just like Ayrton Senna knew when he did it to Prost and Hamilton knows when he does it to everybody. That's hard racing to me and putting limits on that kind of thing would be terrible because it would neutralise the most interesting part of the race (the start). Maybe it was due to the whole race fixing controversy but I didn't hear anybody (including ex racers Brundle and DC, or Alonso although he was a bit busy) criticise Vettel for his start on the grounds of aggression; they just said he'd be better off going in a straight line after a poor start rather than swerving, which is true.

Vettel just needs to work on his judgement at certain times when he's wheel to wheel as it seems to be his major weakness. He needs to know when to show aggression and when not to.

I am not overly bothered about it, but he's maybe going that foot (inches???) too far, possibly. As you say,it seems to be hindering rather than helping him anyway.

Now you know it's not like me to play devil's advocate.......ok it is, however, it's not the point........but spatial awareness, after that move in Turkey?? :whistling::lol:

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I am not overly bothered about it, but he's maybe going that foot (inches???) too far, possibly. As you say,it seems to be hindering rather than helping him anyway.

Now you know it's not like me to play devil's advocate.......ok it is, however, it's not the point........but spatial awareness, after that move in Turkey?? :whistling::lol:

Now c'mon we all know that was Webber's fault! :P

Sniff Petrol anyone?

http://sniffpetrol.com/2010/07/26/1407/

Edited by The Professor

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@Silas & YHR: I agree with both of you. With YHR, of course, we disagree about what would have been the most probable outcome, though :P I think Alonso had more chances to actually overtake Massa somewhere (probably closer to the end of race). He pressed Massa hard and then pulled back. That could mean he gave up, but also that he decided to preserve fuel and tires for a final attack. Nowadays it is not wise to attack during the whole race. You can only attack for a few laps and then you need to pull back as not to put too much stress on brakes/fuel/tires. Unless you are going for all or nothing but then you will overtake the car in front and then find yourself running at a lousy pace. On the other hand, watching Massa struggling at the same time against his own tires and Alonso's car was mesmerizing! :lol:

In any case, we will never know as the duel was not decided on track. Shame.

@Paul: Yes, the infamous Schu-weave , but this was more than that. And I still don't understand what was SV expecting to happen, other than Alonso's car in flames as you don't need to be overly brilliant to realize that FM would get through while he was trying to paint the pitwall Ferrari red. Schumi would have probably swerved violently to the right to unsettle Alonso then back left to stop FM. At least that way he would have had a fair chance of not losing more than one place, or even conserve P1 by the end of the straight.

@John: Yeah, I had to look on two sites because the discrepancies between questions and answers were so great I thought they mixed two different press conferences together! :lol:

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Vettel just needs to work on his judgement at certain times when he's wheel to wheel as it seems to be his major weakness. He needs to know when to show aggression and when not to.

I think most of the times it is the driver squeezed who knows where the other is and not viceversa. Mistakes are part of racing, and dangerous accidents can happen for being too optimistic one and overly agressive the other. I liked that they had discovered new flags and new penalties at the start of the season but they seem have forgotten about it. A reprimand would have been a good message for Vettel. On top of that what Vettel did was not helping him at the start, quite the opposite.

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Let me ask a question. If it was Alonso who slowed down for Massa, would there be such an outcry?

Of course not. "Massa is poor little guy which had bad accident a year ago and this gesture by his team is the nicest present he could have received." Something along these lines would be all over media, especially English.

(especially since that would almost certainly remove one guy from the competition for title)

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HA! This is hilarious, no offence but you're surely the king of making wild accusations against McLaren/Hamilton with barely any evidence, let alone proof!

That's the point. The ones that required absolute proof once, now don't require it.

I know you understand it but your dishonest handling of this matter and following means I'll balcklist you too.

You were referring to Hamilton's 'lie' scandal which, although inexcusable, is totally irrelevant to the subject of team orders is it not? You referred to Monaco 07 & Hamilton's actions there - from my memory, he was told to hold station behind Alonso and he got angry about it, he didnt gain anything from team orders, so I dont understand your point.

FIA investigated Monaco 07 on account of Hamilton accusations. FIA found nothing except that Hamilton had lied about team orders. Hungary 07 was the same business except Hamilton lies managed to get McLaren penalized.

And so Hamilton continues to lie to this day.

And forgive me for asking to please remind me of USA GP 2007 cos I can't remember - please elaborate. No doubt I will strongly disagree, but we all love a good debate

Alonso was told not to pass Hamilton in US 07 aside from the fact that was forced to refueled earlier to gift the race to Hamilton.

It's call team orders.

Team orders that have been in place in McLaren up to and including this last GP when McLaren decided to keep their driver's position.

Anyway. Take it easy. Baaaa-baaay.

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@Alehop:

Well yes, I know it isn't the best idea for him, like I said he'd be better off going in a straight line after a bad start for the best traction.

I agree that optimism and aggression are the two big causes of crashes but I have not seen many instances where a driver has swerved to defend on the pit straight (at the start or any other lap) and it has resulted in an accident, which leads me to believe that actually, these guys just might know what they are doing ;)

Edited by The Professor

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@Alehop:

Well yes, I know it isn't the best idea for him, like I said he'd be better off going in a straight line after a bad start for the best traction.

I agree that optimism and aggression are the two big causes of crashes but I have not seen many instances where a driver has swerved to defend on the pit straight (at the start or any other lap) and it has resulted in an accident, which leads me to believe that actually, these guys just might know what they are doing ;)

Now, now, start from grid is when most accidents occur in a race. The reasons are usually technical but, most often than not, come from miscalculation brought about by over aggressiveness.

That's the reason why "swerving" has been seriously restricted... except for some drivers.

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Now c'mon we all know that was Webber's fault! :P

Sniff Petrol anyone?

http://sniffpetrol.com/2010/07/26/1407/

:laughing: Loved it TP, thanks for that!

".........We are committed to a Ferrari world championship victory in 2010,’ said a spokesman. Unfortunately, that spokesman was FIA president Jean Toad"

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Now, now, start from grid is when most accidents occur in a race. The reasons are usually technical but, most often than not, come from miscalculation brought about by over aggressiveness.

That's the reason why "swerving" has been seriously restricted... except for some drivers.

Lots of accidents at the start, yes. Miscalculations yes. But not from swerving. Usually it is people misjudging braking points on cold tyres or going for a closing gap which causes accidents. Which is not what we're talking about here. Pay attention maure :P

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So because I'm a fan of Lewis Hamilton and disagree with maure's allegations about McLaren & their driver favouritism, I should be blacklisted? Just for having a different opinion?

If Maure can read this, I'd like to respectfully ask why debate on a forum when you will 'blacklist' anyone who doesn't share your views? I don't see the point in your participation in discussions if that is the case.

Sorry i'm sure others have raised this but I've been away a while & would like clarification. I try to be fair in debates and always have evidence to back up what I say. So I don't see why I should be ignored by someone who, unless I've just got this all wrong, clearly must be insecure about his own un-evidenced arguments so escapes the situation by blacklisting/ignoring anyone who disagrees?

PS I edited my post from earlier cos it seemed a bit rude and I'd actually misinterpreted maure's post. Apologies.

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So why did they not give Lewis the same chance?

Lewis showed a rook could smoke out a world champion. If Vettel's as good as everybody says he is, he'll be champion this year. So relax dude. Chill man. Don't lose your cool. Running out of stupid stuff to say now. Bye!

Kopite Kopite.....you should ask that to guys like Maure and Alehop, who were leading the show of kicking Lewis....:P

Oh cmon.....now don't make me look like a Vettel fan....:D , I was actually telling others to chill and relax.......and give that guy a chance to mature....even if he wins this year's championship, he will go on making a lot of mistakes...some of the greatest drivers have lost their lives due to mistakes......glad that F1 is a lot safer now....

I am a Lewistric...or whatever the call it..... :)

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What about the Mclaren drivers? Didn't Jenson have the pace to challenge Lewis?

I think he drove a very good race and probably had the edge on Lewis. Somewhere around that point he got the message that Webber was told to let him go. Then Jenson, that according to his engineer, was " one of the fastest cars on track" didn't make an attempt to challenge Lewis who at the time was saving fuel. Probably a wise choice, as a position swap would only serve him 4 points against Lewis, while a potential accident would leave him back in 4th in the championship. Jenson seems to choose his battles,had they been first and second it probably would have been another story.

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Exactly, I find some of the comments the likes of Button has made inlight of what happened quite hypocritical. Jense is an excellent driver, but f*cking pull the other one JB. I find it laughable that there's the likes of him and Christian Horner coming out and attacking Ferrari in this way in a "Team orders? Don't happen here *snigger snigger*" view. Because clearly they do, you only have to go as far back as Turkey to see that, because as I mentioned earlier, Vettel had been told to turn his engine up and Mark his engine down. Lie all you want, but that's team orders. Same with McLaren telling Jenson to back off Lewis in the closing laps because of fuel issues. Absolute rubbish.

You could even argue the thing that happened at Silverstone with Red Bull was team orders too. The definition is that anything where one driver is favoured over the other in an aspect that could alter the outcome of the race are banned, but Red Bull gave Mark's front win to Sebastian, an arguable team order there too, as it should and probably did give Vettel and advantage in qualifying. Same with Mercedes, altering the car to suit Michael's style more than Rosberg's. If the FIA's going to punish the Ferrari team, why not punish every team in just some of the examples I have given, because surely they could be argued as team orders too?

The definition and explanation of a "team order" needs clarifying. I don't think scrapping the rule that team orders are banned is wise at all, because you're just going to invite a whole bunch of trouble again, pre 2002. It'll just taint F1's respectibility as a professional sport. Surely the rule needs to be firm and clarifying as to what can be classified as a team order and what can't, because as I've mentioned, any of the incidents above could be argued as a team order. But I guess it's one of those rules that's pretty impossible to police correctly, because if you go against what Ferrari and whoever else may have used team orders, you are effectively saying everyone in this professional, global sport are a bunch of liars and corrupt people. The media would have a frenzy over that one. Unless the FIA can get 100% bonafide proof that if Button had continued at his same pace he wouldn't have run out of fuel, or that Mark Webber wasn't redlining either, teams can simply wriggle out of the situation through a whole host of excuses.

What does slightly infuriate me on this incident though, is the teams and drivers view that "nothing but the championship matters". Like balls it does. No team with their huge brands, nor any of the superstar drivers are bigger than the sport, and the sport is not bigger than the fans. Without the fans tuning in week in, week out, the sport would mean nothing, the championship would mean nothing. When an incident like this happens, understandably the fans get angry that the teams thing the fans are stupider than they really are, people turn off, sponsors sell less products/make less money, fewer people go to races, auto manufacturers competing may sell fewer cars and the sport on the whole becomes less popular as it would if team rules suddenly were allowed and this sort of thing was okay to happen and happened nearly every race. So, what really matters are the fans, and the teams need reminding of that.

Edited by JHS

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Lots of accidents at the start, yes. Miscalculations yes. But not from swerving. Usually it is people misjudging braking points on cold tyres or going for a closing gap which causes accidents. Which is not what we're talking about here. Pay attention maure :P

Funny man.

See if you can watch the start of a few GP's with accidents. Replay them on slow motion. You will see that it is precisely changes in direction what causes most accidents by far. It cannot be any other way, really. Of all the skills that drivers need, there is one that none have, namely, telepathy. The swerving of other drivers is the cause of most accidents... actually anywhere on a race, be that at the start or while passing, etc.

As I said, it is the reason why the amount of changes of direction is restricted at the start... and "cause for reprimand" during racing.

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And, yeah JHS, a strange form of PC got into F1 on this and other matters. A similar thing has happened with the freaking "green" sht... or bugger, actually.

Fads.

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Sorry to change this fascinating sucbject but I also missed some VERY important thing about this race:

- Petrov for DoD!!!!!!!!

The guy looks more andmore like a still green version of Kubica, but with plenty of room to improve and the will to do so. This time the guy battled with the Williams and earned himself a top ten finish. Too bad they will probably kick him out to hire some old also ran or some other pay driver with a new money injection (seems like Renault is in dire need of cash rioght now). Given a couple of years we could have a potential winner there. I like him better than Kobayashi...and of course, the fact that he drives for Renault has no influence on my opinion. :whistling:

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Sorry to change this fascinating sucbject but I also missed some VERY important thing about this race:

- Petrov for DoD!!!!!!!!

Now that you said...

Is it me or we never have a DoD poll when Alonso wins a race? :eekout:

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Kopite Kopite.....you should ask that to guys like Maure and Alehop, who were leading the show of kicking Lewis....:P

Oh cmon.....now don't make me look like a Vettel fan....:D , I was actually telling others to chill and relax.......and give that guy a chance to mature....even if he wins this year's championship, he will go on making a lot of mistakes...some of the greatest drivers have lost their lives due to mistakes......glad that F1 is a lot safer now....

I am a Lewistric...or whatever the call it..... :)

If you say so.

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What about the Mclaren drivers? Didn't Jenson have the pace to challenge Lewis?

I think he drove a very good race and probably had the edge on Lewis. Somewhere around that point he got the message that Webber was told to let him go. Then Jenson, that according to his engineer, was " one of the fastest cars on track" didn't make an attempt to challenge Lewis who at the time was saving fuel. Probably a wise choice, as a position swap would only serve him 4 points against Lewis, while a potential accident would leave him back in 4th in the championship. Jenson seems to choose his battles,had they been first and second it probably would have been another story.

I'd choose my battles too rather than looking like a c#ck and having my own arse handed out to me on a silver platter with all the trimmings.

The problem is, is that nobody wants to believe that a driver has a brain of his own and can actually use it now and again. Nobody seems to believe that there IS a few drivers who can race on track without crashing into their team-mate.

I would ****ing LOVE it while the rest of you were mouthing off about other drivers and so called scandals if Button carried on with his business and quietly took the title. I would laugh my ****ing pants off all the way to Frome.

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Vettel was focusing too much on squeezing Alonso out of the equation moving Massa into it! But sure Lewis did the same in Italy 07 on Nando & he's now a prospering young lad top of the championship!

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I'd choose my battles too rather than looking like a c#ck and having my own arse handed out to me on a silver platter with all the trimmings.

The problem is, is that nobody wants to believe that a driver has a brain of his own and can actually use it now and again. Nobody seems to believe that there IS a few drivers who can race on track without crashing into their team-mate.

I would ****ing LOVE it while the rest of you were mouthing off about other drivers and so called scandals if Button carried on with his business and quietly took the title. I would laugh my ****ing pants off all the way to Frome.

That was more or less what I was getting at. I am not a fan of Button but if he wins it this year I would say he has redefined the Prost model.

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Vettel was focusing too much on squeezing Alonso out of the equation moving Massa into it! But sure Lewis did the same in Italy 07 on Nando & he's now a prospering young lad top of the championship!

Like Webbo did to Vettel on the previous occassion? :P

I think in almost all the races we can see these sorta moves....sometimes the leaders do it fairly, but in the middle or rear end of the field someone is doing it and getting away with it......Vettel will keep doing it, so will Alonso and Lewis when they get their chance. To be honest, the only two fair racing drivers who are currently driving good cars are Massa and Button.

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