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KoolMonkey

The Look On Vettel'S Face Was Priceless

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Apparently Alonso never seems to know what's up. He looked guilty as sin when being interviewed fumbling with excuses on why he was able to pass Massa. What I found very interesting in the after race interviews was Vettel's face when Alonso was speaking. If you got the race recorded, re watch it and have a laugh lol. Vettel knew what Alonso was peddling was pure bs. Sadly the person asking the questions never took it to Alonso. I wish EJ had been there. Hopefully he would have called Alonso on the BS and said straight up you're lying.

Alonso is now so delusional he actually believes himself. How many times now has this idiot Alonso used the "I don't know" excuse. It work in the spygate, it worked crashgate too. I'm sure he'll continue to play the I'm so innocent, look at my big baby eyes while I bat them routine. But now hopefully more people will catch on to routine. Alonso looked guilty in his body language, his words and how he conducted himself. He knew full well what had happened.

Smedely gave it away in the end for the way he radioed Massa with the "team order". Then to say you're sorry, dang it's like he wanted the world to know. Now of course after the Ferrari brass busted his balls, he's claiming Massa missed a gear change, and thus Alonso was able to capitalize.

Damn now I feel stupider after this whole fiasco, that Alonso and Ferrari would even attempt to re-write what we all saw. I think Alonso missed his true calling... he should have been a politician!

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I don't know how or why anyone would blame Alonso for today. It was a team order and Ferrari are to blame. Alonso looking guilty shows he felt bad about winning in such a way, which shows he is a decent guy. He lied because it was a team decision (even if it is a team decision which he wanted and profited from, it is still a team decision) and he has to respect the team and protect them. Massa also lied for the same reason.

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I don't know how or why anyone would blame Alonso for today. It was a team order and Ferrari are to blame. Alonso looking guilty shows he felt bad about winning in such a way, which shows he is a decent guy. He lied because it was a team decision (even if it is a team decision which he wanted and profited from, it is still a team decision) and he has to respect the team and protect them. Massa also lied for the same reason.

Hate to admit...but I agree with you on this one.....Its not Alonso who is to be blamed...

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Vettelwunderkindgivemeyourfrontwing knows cause he's just as bad.

:lol:

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Ok, I didn't wanted to get into this, because I know how will it end, but anyways:

- Lewis: qualified on fumes then pushed the car to the parc ferme. You don't need to be Einstein to know that it was not the way it was supposed to be. Was it illegal? No. Unethical? Yes, obviously (how many drivers/teams have you seen doing the same? None, becauise that was obviously not the right thing). Massa WASN'T GIVEN DIRECT ORDERS, JUST "ACTED ON A COMMENT MADE BY HIS OWN ENGINEER". Illegal? Nope. Unethical? Heck yes. Back to Lewis, what should have he done? Propose himself to start from the last position? Ask for the Qualy to be raced again? The guy didn't even seem as ashamed as Nando today. He didn't even got a penalty. Was it the end of the world? Nope. Did anybody put a price on Lewis head? Nope. Did anybody say that "Lewis demanded that the team should do an unethical thing (not to say "cheat") in order to help him win"?

- Vettel: ditto.Yes, I know all the differences bewteen these three scenarios, but I hope some of you can see the similarities. Should Vettel have given Webber his wing back? Refused to race? Vettel was arther arrogant afterwards. Was he called a cheat? Did anybody automatically assumed that he "demanded" that wing being given to him? Was he the main culprit for knowing that his wing was actually Webber's and not giving it back?

(None of the examples are that great but I didn't want to bring up the most obvious examples from past seasons as to avoid some nauseating debates we've already been through countless times)

I can understand the unanimous condem towards the teams actions and feel ashamed for Alonso's victory (if it can actually be called a victory when it was actually a defeat). But anything else is just double standards. And, sorry, but it is not something you can lay on the Alonsosterics field this time :P We all condemned the issue as soon as it happened. I don't recall the same reactions on similar cases with other drivers.

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Ok, I didn't wanted to get into this, because I know how will it end, but anyways:

- Lewis: qualified on fumes then pushed the car to the parc ferme. You don't need to be Einstein to know that it was not the way it was supposed to be. Was it illegal? No. Unethical? Yes, obviously (how many drivers/teams have you seen doing the same? None, becauise that was obviously not the right thing). Massa WASN'T GIVEN DIRECT ORDERS, JUST "ACTED ON A COMMENT MADE BY HIS OWN ENGINEER". Illegal? Nope. Unethical? Heck yes. Back to Lewis, what should have he done? Propose himself to start from the last position? Ask for the Qualy to be raced again? The guy didn't even seem as ashamed as Nando today. He didn't even got a penalty. Was it the end of the world? Nope. Did anybody put a price on Lewis head? Nope. Did anybody say that "Lewis demanded that the team should do an unethical thing (not to say "cheat") in order to help him win"?

- Vettel: ditto.Yes, I know all the differences bewteen these three scenarios, but I hope some of you can see the similarities. Should Vettel have given Webber his wing back? Refused to race? Vettel was arther arrogant afterwards. Was he called a cheat? Did anybody automatically assumed that he "demanded" that wing being given to him? Was he the main culprit for knowing that his wing was actually Webber's and not giving it back?

(None of the examples are that great but I didn't want to bring up the most obvious examples from past seasons as to avoid some nauseating debates we've already been through countless times)

I can understand the unanimous condem towards the teams actions and feel ashamed for Alonso's victory (if it can actually be called a victory when it was actually a defeat). But anything else is just double standards. And, sorry, but it is not something you can lay on the Alonsosterics field this time :P We all condemned the issue as soon as it happened. I don't recall the same reactions on similar cases with other drivers.

I agree with your post, however... This happened during the race. The fans feel robbed, neither can they believe the audacity of what has happened ei Does Ferrari think the fans are actually too stupid to see what really transpired. Some people paid huge sums of money to be there on race day, and has to be satisfied with a "manipulated race"...just my perspective

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I agree with your post, however... This happened during the race. The fans feel robbed, neither can they believe the audacity of what has happened ei Does Ferrari think the fans are actually too stupid to see what really happened. Some people paid huge sums of money to be there on race day, and has to be satisfied with a "manipulated race"...just my perspective

And I agree with you and so do anybody else, I think. There was not a single line written in the forums defending what Ferrari did. Alonso fans felt robbed of what we think would have been an Alonso victory anyways. Ferrari fans (I guess) must feel ashamed as well. Other drivers fans feel outraged. Ditto for other teams fans. "Team orders" fans think that this was blatant and stupid...no, nobody thinks this was Ferrari/Nando/Massa finest hour :D

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Actually I believe this is was one of Massa's finest hours. I don't blame him at all for what transpired. I will even forgive Ferrari and Alonso. However I will not forget what has happened. So please forgive me,should Alonso be in the hunt near the end, that I cheer for someone else to wins.

Stuff like this tarnishes the championship. Alonso expecting and accepting this treatment dimishes my respect for him. At least he was concerned about FM feelings, that tells me there is a heart in there somewhere.

Massa has proven yet again he is the match for any driver on the grid. He had the skill to keep Alonso behind unitl his car cam einto balance, and then he buil an impressive 4 second lead over Alonso. Massa proved he has the race skill of Alonso as well.

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Didn't see post-race interview as I was bored & went straight onto FIFA! Pic please??

Speed will have the full race again in Tuesday at 12:00pm EST, I know you are in Europe but if somehow you can get a feed you can watch it there.

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And I agree with you and so do anybody else, I think. There was not a single line written in the forums defending what Ferrari did. Alonso fans felt robbed of what we think would have been an Alonso victory anyways. Ferrari fans (I guess) must feel ashamed as well. Other drivers fans feel outraged. Ditto for other teams fans. "Team orders" fans think that this was blatant and stupid...no, nobody thinks this was Ferrari/Nando/Massa finest hour :D

Well, we do!

I really wanted FM to get a good result and rediscover his aggressiveness and winning attitude from the previous years he (rather slowly) managed to build over time.

A win from him would mean he was going to be another strong player in this year's championship which of course would make this year even more exciting.

However, as a Ferrari fan, I would like to see a Ferrari driver to (actually) fight for the championship.

Based on points, FA is the one who is more likely to give us this "pleasure", this year.

Which means, I can understand the team's decision.

I also believe they did this after they calculated the consequences very well.

If I knew they were doing something obviously (and rather provocatively) illegal, then I'm pretty sure they knew that as well.

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Not intending to be cynical but...

Everyone knows you have to manage your swaps with a little more style than that. There were two opportunities to have Alonso jump Massa and not make it so obvious that the media and the stewards could not ignore it:

1 -- in the pit stops, keep Massa out for 2-3 more laps and let Alonso burn off a second or two, or have Massa run a slow in lap just enough that it puts Alonso .5 seconds ahead but doesn't risk his position otherwise

2 -- when they hit traffic and Massa and Alonso were dicing it up. Massa could have just 'given up' without it being too obvious and it would have looked like Alonso took the position

or, then I suppose #3 -- Any time after the #2 incident when they hit traffic, Massa could have 'had some trouble' with the traffic and Alonso slips by him.

Although I suppose it *is* cynical of me, I actually fault Massa for this. If he has agreed to be a #2 at Ferrari then he needs to act with the conviction of his promises and suck it up. Sulkingly handing over the win, with him and his engineer making their displeasure obvious is p**s poor behavior.

Either do the deed and take it like a man, or don't make the agreement in the first place. There's no middle ground. Trying to occupy middle ground just hurts the team, as we can see clearly by the resulting firestorm.

Everyone knows nowadays that if you are going to let your #1 swap places with the #2 it has to be smooth. Both drivers have to be in agreement and planning for it from the time that the 'order' is given. This is why Alonso is so frustrated, because Felipe is being a little b**** about it.

That's my two cents.

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And I agree with you and so do anybody else, I think. There was not a single line written in the forums defending what Ferrari did. Alonso fans felt robbed of what we think would have been an Alonso victory anyways. Ferrari fans (I guess) must feel ashamed as well. Other drivers fans feel outraged. Ditto for other teams fans. "Team orders" fans think that this was blatant and stupid...no, nobody thinks this was Ferrari/Nando/Massa finest hour :D

Best post award is yours. :lol:

Seriously, nobody think about what Ferrari most likely said to Alonso during the race. They should have told him something like you're not going to win this race if you see a red car in front of you when you cross the finish line or the little guy is going to close the gap in the driver's championship or if you find it hard to pass we can't help you. They told him not to attack his teammate wording it your engine's going to blow up if you get so close to your teammate, your teammate, mate or you have to save fuel or I met a funny guy when I was on holidays in Sicily as they were expecting to sort it out talking to to Massa. Do I have absolute proof about it? No.

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The problem with this whole deal is how Smedley and Massa handled it. The final mess was how Massa handled it afterwards which was like a spoiled child almost as if he hoped the team would get in trouble for this. As a consequence, he brought disrepute to the Team and himself, making a mess for Alonso in the process, which brought back nighmares of the Briatore/Piquet Jr. incident. I would not be surprised if Massa was let go at the end of the season. He did this whining about Schumacher before, but Michael covered his rear.

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Not intending to be cynical but...

Everyone knows you have to manage your swaps with a little more style than that. There were two opportunities to have Alonso jump Massa and not make it so obvious that the media and the stewards could not ignore it:

1 -- in the pit stops, keep Massa out for 2-3 more laps and let Alonso burn off a second or two, or have Massa run a slow in lap just enough that it puts Alonso .5 seconds ahead but doesn't risk his position otherwise

2 -- when they hit traffic and Massa and Alonso were dicing it up. Massa could have just 'given up' without it being too obvious and it would have looked like Alonso took the position

or, then I suppose #3 -- Any time after the #2 incident when they hit traffic, Massa could have 'had some trouble' with the traffic and Alonso slips by him.

Although I suppose it *is* cynical of me, I actually fault Massa for this. If he has agreed to be a #2 at Ferrari then he needs to act with the conviction of his promises and suck it up. Sulkingly handing over the win, with him and his engineer making their displeasure obvious is p**s poor behavior.

Either do the deed and take it like a man, or don't make the agreement in the first place. There's no middle ground. Trying to occupy middle ground just hurts the team, as we can see clearly by the resulting firestorm.

Everyone knows nowadays that if you are going to let your #1 swap places with the #2 it has to be smooth. Both drivers have to be in agreement and planning for it from the time that the 'order' is given. This is why Alonso is so frustrated, because Felipe is being a little b**** about it.

That's my two cents.

You must be joking. Blaming Massa for this is insane. You have no idea of what contract FM has signed and yet you are prepared to make that the reason this is all his fault, and calling him a little b#####d. WOW talk about a strange perception of reality.

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You must be joking. Blaming Massa for this is insane. You have no idea of what contract FM has signed and yet you are prepared to make that the reason this is all his fault, and calling him a little b#####d. WOW talk about a strange perception of reality.

You have your point of view and I have mine, he has his. You're accusing Alonso for wanting this gift and demanding it. You must have been joking, right? You said Ferrari didn't deserve a driver like Massa and you've been praising him way too much... Place your feet on the ground, mate. Everybody has a past, Massa has a past. He had a glorious past until he decided to play the game in Monza 2006, he fits in Ferrari as much as any other competitive F1 driver, not so competitive lately, in any competitive team. He's no saint, he's a professional F1 driver like the rest of the grid.

I don't blame Massa for what happened today, but he let Alonso pass and he did it cowardly. Smedley passed the message to Massa cowardly too. Smedley could have said I'm not gonna pass the message to my friend, or he could have done it properly. All the winter Massa talking about the team, about working for the team... bulls##t!!! They were chickens today, chickens with no head. I would have liked to hear Massa reply I can win this race. Period. Then we all could be proud of Massa, but not now. We can only expect the FIA crushing Ferrari just because he and Smedley did want to show his displeasure. bulls##t!!!

This track seems to be cursed, Kovalainen-Hamilton incident was there too in 2008. I remember I didn't like it but it wasn't as annoying as today's. Why? I know the answer now, because Kovalainen did it not so blatanly obvious and we didn't have pit-radio entertaiment in 2008. Other than that I don't see the difference, watch it and judge yourselves (1' 50'').

http://www.videohighlights.net/20072008-gp-germany-hockenheim-formula-1/

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Actually I believe this is was one of Massa's finest hours.

Then I take

wasn't his finest hour? :whistling:

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If Massa's contract states that he's the #2, then we wouldn't have seem him acting in the wounded stabbed in the back manner. He was clearly devastated and thus I think it came as both a shock and surprise to him when he got the message. If he knew he was the #2, he would have conducted himself better, let Alonso past in a way that wasn't so obvious and been less of a sour puss afterwards. Thus I think based on this, I don't think his contract states anything of the sort. However, I don't doubt there were things implied either verbally as to what his role in the team is. He certainly isn't there as the #1, we all know that, but I don't think he's got a piece of paper that says you're job is to pull a Rubens either.

Granted, Alonso isn't the one who made the final call to swap positions, but he was on the radio beforehand crying bloody murder and that is was "ridiculous" how he was trapped behind Massa. He did the same thing when stuck behind Fisi in Canada 05/06 (can't remember year). He didn't make the radio call to just vent some frustration, he wanted the team to order Massa to move aside for him. He has a history of acting in this way. Thus Alonso in a way is just as much to blame as Ferrari. If he never radioed the pit wall, and just went balls out to pass Massa, then clearly that would have been better. But he couldn't do it, in fact he hardly even attempted a manoeuvre on Massa. Alonso wasn't acting guilty at the end press conference because he felt the team orders were unfair, he knew full well what had happened, and his participation and instigation in the whole mess.

Had Alonso not radioed his deep displeasure at being stuck behind Massa, I don't think the call would have gone out to Massa to let him through.

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Granted, Alonso isn't the one who made the final call to swap positions, but he was on the radio beforehand crying bloody murder and that is was "ridiculous" how he was trapped behind Massa. He did the same thing when stuck behind Fisi in Canada 05/06 (can't remember year). He didn't make the radio call to just vent some frustration, he wanted the team to order Massa to move aside for him. He has a history of acting in this way. Thus Alonso in a way is just as much to blame as Ferrari. If he never radioed the pit wall, and just went balls out to pass Massa, then clearly that would have been better. But he couldn't do it, in fact he hardly even attempted a manoeuvre on Massa. Alonso wasn't acting guilty at the end press conference because he felt the team orders were unfair, he knew full well what had happened, and his participation and instigation in the whole mess.

Alonso said it was ridiculous? Meaning what? If he's stuck behind Massa and the team tell him to save fuel = do not attack Massa is one reason I can think of an F1 driver saying it. The other one could be his teammate being overly agressive when he's clearly faster so they could have ended up like Vettel-Webber in Turkey. In Canada the team didn't want him to attack Fisi, that was certainly ridiculous.

Do you honestly think Alonso would complain if Ferrari tell him Massa is not our problem, you deal with it? Teams don't want teammates racing because they normaly behave more agressively than normal. If it is true that Massa and Alonso were close to crash into eachother the team probably told Alonso not to attack Massa and they were probably expecting him accepting team's decission.

I'm faster than Massa or it's ridiculous coul mean many things. I'm faster so let me try... Or I'm faster and the team don't let me try, then it's ridiculous. I'm making assumptioms as much as you did.

Had Alonso not radioed his deep displeasure at being stuck behind Massa, I don't think the call would have gone out to Massa to let him through.

In summary, Alonso was managing the race from his c#ckpit at 280 km/h.

As you said he was stuck behind Massa, he was faster than Massa. If what you say is true, It was Ferrari doing it through team orders because probably Alonso would have risked both cars as he was fighting for the win and the Championship. In that respect we can be proud of him.

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Then I take

wasn't his finest hour? :whistling:

At this time Kimi was out of contention, but whatever makes you feel better.

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The problem with this whole deal is how Smedley and Massa handled it. The final mess was how Massa handled it afterwards which was like a spoiled child almost as if he hoped the team would get in trouble for this. As a consequence, he brought disrepute to the Team and himself, making a mess for Alonso in the process, which brought back nighmares of the Briatore/Piquet Jr. incident. I would not be surprised if Massa was let go at the end of the season. He did this whining about Schumacher before, but Michael covered his rear.

Totally agree.

You must be joking. Blaming Massa for this is insane. You have no idea of what contract FM has signed and yet you are prepared to make that the reason this is all his fault, and calling him a little b#####d. WOW talk about a strange perception of reality.

We all know what kind of contract Massa signed. 1) It was in the papers a while back, 2) Alonso makes every team that has him go insane and frothy at the mouth trying to get him victories, 3) If there was any doubt: from points 1 and 2, I offer a paraphrasing of that radio message from Sunday as proof: "Alonso... Is.. Faster.. Than... You... That's our code word, mate, I'm sorry, but... now... acknowledge... that.. you.. will... comply... like... we... agreed... when... we... gave... you... all.. that... money..."

Look at what happened on Sunday. Ferrari's contract with Massa has been laid bare by their actions.

I may be cynical about this, but F1 is a cynical sport. To believe that Massa isn't the #2 at Ferrari is either delusional or naive. They're ruthless and they have Alonso. Nuff said.

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Alonso said it was ridiculous? Meaning what? If he's stuck behind Massa and the team tell him to save fuel = do not attack Massa is one reason I can think of an F1 driver saying it. The other one could be his teammate being overly agressive when he's clearly faster so they could have ended up like Vettel-Webber in Turkey. In Canada the team didn't want him to attack Fisi, that was certainly ridiculous.

Do you honestly think Alonso would complain if Ferrari tell him Massa is not our problem, you deal with it? Teams don't want teammates racing because they normaly behave more agressively than normal. If it is true that Massa and Alonso were close to crash into eachother the team probably told Alonso not to attack Massa and they were probably expecting him accepting team's decission.

I'm faster than Massa or it's ridiculous coul mean many things. I'm faster so let me try... Or I'm faster and the team don't let me try, then it's ridiculous. I'm making assumptioms as much as you did.

In summary, Alonso was managing the race from his c#ckpit at 280 km/h.

As you said he was stuck behind Massa, he was faster than Massa. If what you say is true, It was Ferrari doing it through team orders because probably Alonso would have risked both cars as he was fighting for the win and the Championship. In that respect we can be proud of him.

Alehop, we are not monkeys, we are intelligent human beings. This is ridiculous meant he could'nt pass Massa for whatsoever reason, and complained to the management about it. Wether Massa was aggressively defending his position, which he is allowed to, or wether Alonso was faster or not, he could'nt pass his teammate.That's why the team order had to come in play....

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...the team tell him to save fuel = do not attack ...

Actually, that is what McLaren told Hamilton... I mean, Hamilton was told what's to the left of the equal sign.

But, of course, who is concerned around here with orders in other teams?

It's just Alonso bashing... years old stuff by the same people. You explained well in an earlier post. You know them for what they say and for what they silence. I recommend my method, namely, block them. It's surprisely effective. Had never done it before elsewhere or elsewhen... but the TF1 forums have completely changed for me. They now somehow sparkle.

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I know we are all sick of the issue by now, but this racer-republic article sums it up perfectly to me..

Twelve months ago today, Felipe Massa was lying in a coma in hospital following the horrific accident in Hungary that would end his 2009 season early, and which almost cost the Brazilian his life.

This morning, he should be waking up celebrating a fairytale victory on the first anniversary of that accident. He should, but as we all now know, he isn’t after the issue of team orders reared its head again in F1.

Here at Racers-Republic, we’ve pulled no punches when its come to discussing the various issues at Red Bull Racing this year and the way in which the team appears to have shown favour to Sebastian Vettel over his team-mate Mark Webber. But the issues within that team have all stemmed from an incident on track where the pair were allowed to fight to such an extent that they took each other off track.

With Ferrari, that couldn’t be far from the truth...

As Martin Brundle rightly said during the BBC’s coverage of the race, the German Grand Prix was Massa back to his best. Aside from his podiums in the opening two races, it hasn’t been a vintage campaign for the Brazilian but that is perhaps understandable after the injuries he sustained in his accident at the Hungaroring last season.

A fine start allowed him to jump into the lead on the run to turn one as Vettel focused all of his attention on preventing Fernando Alonso from getting ahead into turn one. He failed anyway to drop to third.

Massa then set about building a lead over his team-mate, despite a wobble after his pitstop when he was clearly struggling on the harder compound Bridgestone tyres. However, build a lead was exactly what he did to pull an advantage of more than three seconds over the Spaniard.

Then came the call that changed everything; and left Ferrari wishing that communications between team and driver were kept private.

It was clear in Rob Smedley’s voice that the message telling his driver that Alonso was quicker behind wasn’t the usual 'Pull your finger out and speed up' and that point was driven home when the move was made a lap later and the message over the radio ended with a simple 'I'm sorry'.

It was clear to everyone watching on what had just happened, and from a team that should well have known better after what happened in Austria and then in the United States in 2002.

What was even worse than what happened on track though was the way in which Ferrari attempted to cover up the incident afterwards. Perhaps the following snippets from the post-race press conference summed up Massa’s feelings perfectly and showed he wasn’t happy at what had happened.

Q:

You were told by Rob Smedley, your race engineer, that Fernando was the faster car than yourself. A couple of laps later, turn six at the hairpin, talk us through what happened?

FM:

Well, I don't think I need to say anything about that.

Q:

Fernando managed to get past you. Did you make a mistake? Was it under braking?

FM:

He passed me.

Quite clearly, Alonso didn’t just pass Massa and the Spaniard’s post race comment in Ferrari’s press release saying he got ahead of the Brazilian when he had 'difficulties' makes a mockery of the sport.

Whatever Ferrari may believe, or perhaps want to believe, they have made a monumental error. If Alonso was quicker than Massa then he would have been able to make a move for position and, 'for the good of the team' as the drivers put it, the lead would have been his. They clearly wouldn’t have risked taking each other out as Vettel and Webber did in Turkey.

Instead Ferrari finds themselves up before the World Motor Sport Council, which is the more important part of the decision taken by the stewards. A fine of $100,000 is nothing to the team, but the FIA now has a chance to come down hard on the team for a blatant break of the regulations.

Events in recent years have led fans to quip that the FIA stands for Ferrari International Assistance. Now the governing body has a chance to put that right..

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