Do It For The Team!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Alright, we've all heard countless quotes from drivers, fans, governing bodies and team principals about how everyone is part of a 'team'. But are they really? Part of a team, that is. And when I say part of a team I mean sacrificing everything for the advancement of the 'team'. If you work for Williams, you put in twelve hours on chassis manufacturing because of the team. If you're the left rear tyre guy you drill pit stops when you should be attending your daughter's birthday party...for the team. If you're a driver, you move over for your teammate or give him your front wing for the team.

Hold on. That's not right.

Ok, so those last two examples have been part of F1 for years, but the dynamic has changed since Collins gave his car to Fangio back when the world was sepia-toned. Back then, Collins made that decision because he mathematically couldn't have won the title...and Fangio could have. The incident that has paved the way for any and all agruments about team orders has, at it's roots, the de-bunking of team orders.

Let's sidetrack for a minute here and go back to the team. Who is part of a team and in what capacity? Well, the guys in the factory are certainly part of the team. Race and testing crew are as well. Management certainly are part of the team. Drivers......are somewhat part of the team. Consider that of all the 'members' of the team, only the drivers are competing in a completely separate championship than their employers are. This puts the driver in a sort of 'work for hire' situation. They choose a team in the hopes that the team can give them a car fast enough to make them World Champion. They are by nature *not* going to stay with one team for the life of their career unless they believe the team will always give them the best car. The Driver's Championship is *always* foremost in their minds (unless they've given up and are in it for the money..exceptions to the rules *do* happen).

So asking a pit crewman to work late is an expression of team spirit. He'll do it for the team because he's looking at the Constructor's Championship that he's competing in. Drivers being asked to sacrifice their World Champion position for the sake of their competitor (teammate or not) is *not* an expression of team spirit. Drivers walk a fine line with the teams that employ them. It's a relationship that's symbiotic in nature: Team gives driver X a fast car, driver X finishes high in the points, both driver X and team benefit. That beautiful relationship is breached when the team forces a driver to sacrifice the only reason he's in F1...the Driver's World Championship.

I know, it's been done in the past and is currently done...but it was never meant to be that way. If this was a complete team sport, we wouldn't have a driver's championship. So, now we know where a driver sits in relation to his employers. Now back to Collins/Fangio.

Notice that Collins made his decision based not on the team's desires but on his own standings in the Driver's Championship. This was never a case of team orders, but of a nice chap whos sense of fair play made him do Fangio a favor. Based on the Driver's Championship. Always the Driver's Championship.

So when things like what happened between Alonso and Massa come up, we need to judge them based on a correct view of a driver's role within the team.

Massa did what he did not for the team, but for a man that was leading him in the Championship. The Driver's Championship. Exactly like Collins/Fangio. I trust Massa's honesty enough to believe this.

A few weeks ago Mark Webber had a piece of his car taken and given to a man that was his direct competition for the championship. That move, at the time, breached the unwritten contract between driver and team. It was certainly team orders.

I know this will sound arrogant, but so be it: This is not my viewpoint, this is possibly not your viewpoint...this is the correct viewpoint. Agree or disagree as you will, but this is the proper yardstick with which to measure these things.

[YHR 0]

I agree. The Ferrai Team benefitted nothing from the swap in positions. My personal view is that they are helping Alonso far too early when so many points are yet up for grabs, and that is spoiling the competition for the fans. How are we ever going to now if ALonso is really that much better then Massa when we have to watch results like this.

[Kopite Girl 0]

I think Mike's right. But as YHR says, its a little too soon to tell.

I don't think preference should be shown unless it is mathematically impossible for a driver to win the championship.

[maure 1]

Alright, we've all heard countless quotes from drivers, fans, governing bodies and team principals about how everyone is part of a 'team'. But are they really? Part of a team, that is. And when I say part of a team I mean sacrificing everything for the advancement of the 'team'. If you work for Williams, you put in twelve hours on chassis manufacturing because of the team. If you're the left rear tyre guy you drill pit stops when you should be attending your daughter's birthday party...for the team. If you're a driver, you move over for your teammate or give him your front wing for the team.

Hold on. That's not right.

Ok, so those last two examples have been part of F1 for years, but the dynamic has changed since Collins gave his car to Fangio back when the world was sepia-toned. Back then, Collins made that decision because he mathematically couldn't have won the title...and Fangio could have. The incident that has paved the way for any and all agruments about team orders has, at it's roots, the de-bunking of team orders.

Let's sidetrack for a minute here and go back to the team. Who is part of a team and in what capacity? Well, the guys in the factory are certainly part of the team. Race and testing crew are as well. Management certainly are part of the team. Drivers......are somewhat part of the team. Consider that of all the 'members' of the team, only the drivers are competing in a completely separate championship than their employers are. This puts the driver in a sort of 'work for hire' situation. They choose a team in the hopes that the team can give them a car fast enough to make them World Champion. They are by nature *not* going to stay with one team for the life of their career unless they believe the team will always give them the best car. The Driver's Championship is *always* foremost in their minds (unless they've given up and are in it for the money..exceptions to the rules *do* happen).

So asking a pit crewman to work late is an expression of team spirit. He'll do it for the team because he's looking at the Constructor's Championship that he's competing in. Drivers being asked to sacrifice their World Champion position for the sake of their competitor (teammate or not) is *not* an expression of team spirit. Drivers walk a fine line with the teams that employ them. It's a relationship that's symbiotic in nature: Team gives driver X a fast car, driver X finishes high in the points, both driver X and team benefit. That beautiful relationship is breached when the team forces a driver to sacrifice the only reason he's in F1...the Driver's World Championship.

I know, it's been done in the past and is currently done...but it was never meant to be that way. If this was a complete team sport, we wouldn't have a driver's championship. So, now we know where a driver sits in relation to his employers. Now back to Collins/Fangio.

Notice that Collins made his decision based not on the team's desires but on his own standings in the Driver's Championship. This was never a case of team orders, but of a nice chap whos sense of fair play made him do Fangio a favor. Based on the Driver's Championship. Always the Driver's Championship.

So when things like what happened between Alonso and Massa come up, we need to judge them based on a correct view of a driver's role within the team.

Massa did what he did not for the team, but for a man that was leading him in the Championship. The Driver's Championship. Exactly like Collins/Fangio. I trust Massa's honesty enough to believe this.

A few weeks ago Mark Webber had a piece of his car taken and given to a man that was his direct competition for the championship. That move, at the time, breached the unwritten contract between driver and team. It was certainly team orders.

I know this will sound arrogant, but so be it: This is not my viewpoint, this is possibly not your viewpoint...this is the correct viewpoint. Agree or disagree as you will, but this is the proper yardstick with which to measure these things.

You are completely mistaken.

First, there does not exist a "correct viewpoint". You have come up with this kind of absolutes before. Please, get it once and for all, absolutes don't exist in OPINION. There are some in science and that's about it.

Second, this situation in particular (not some abstraction) is being handled in an interesting manner by Ferrari. See, they don't give a crap about Alonso. They truly are fighting to be able to do as they please as a team. I was not surprised but it did made me smile... well, that's Ferrari for you.

Third, the issue of "mathematical" impossibility is an absurdity when it comes to concrete potential. Massa has sucked this season. If he were up there, not necessarily ahead of Alonso, but up there, the fix would've not taken place... if it did.

Fourth, the matter is only morally questionable (in my opinion) when it is _unnecessary_ for the championship. The most brutally evident cases are Schumacher's and Hamilton's. Team orders gifted untold number of races and points to these two in order to accomplish nothing more than to please the ego of the team's favourite at the expense of the teammate and his humiliation. A far less severe case but similar was Alonso's last stint in Renault.

Fifth, Massa has also benefited from team orders before. Kimi's last season in F1 (which _IS_ a big deal, at least to me) shows far less than what he actually accomplished because Kimi let Massa take points and wins that _MASSA_ had not earned.

Last, you are NOW making an issue of team orders because the driver concerned is Alonso. If you would've made the point before when other drivers were concerned, at least you could've spared your dignity...

... but you haven't and that's a pity because I like you and you are worth more than this... so if I can, if it's possible, I'm returning it.

EDIT: typo

[YHR 0]

You are completely mistaken.

First, there does not exist a "correct viewpoint". You have come up with this kind of absolutes before. Please, get it once and for all, absolutes don't exist in OPINION. There are some in science and that's about it.

Second, this situation in particular (not some abstraction) is being handled in an interesting manner by Ferrari. See, they don't give a crap about Alonso. They truly are fighting to be able to do as they please as a team. I was not surprised but it did made me smile... well, that's Ferrari for you.

Third, the issue of "mathematical" impossibility is an absurdity when it comes to concrete potential. Massa has sucked this season. If he were up there, not necessarily ahead of Alonso, but up there, the fix would've not taken place... if it did.

Fourth, the matter is only morally questionable (in my opinion) when it is _unnecessary_ for the championship. The most brutally evident cases are Schumacher's and Hamilton's. Team orders gifted untold number of races and points to these two in order to accomplish nothing more than to please the ego of the team's favourite at the expense of the teammate and his humiliation. A far less severe case but similar was Alonso's last stint in Renault.

Fifth, Massa has also benefited from team orders before. Kimi's last season in F1 (which _IS_ a big deal, at least to me) shows far less than what he actually accomplished because Kimi let Massa take points and wins that _MASSA_ had not earned.

Last, you are NOW making an issue of team orders because the driver concerned is Alonso. If you would've made the point before when other drivers were concerned, at least you could've spared your dignity...

... but you haven't and that's a pity because I like you and you are worth more than this... so if I can, if it's possible, I'm returning it.

EDIT: typo

Kimi was mathamatically eliminated from the WDC before he started yielding to Massa. Massa is not that far out of the championship. Take 7 points away from Alonso and add them to Massa's WDC total, and there is less then a victory between them. Even an Alonso fan should see this will tarnish Alonso's achievements at Ferrari this year. He has just been gifted 14 points over his team mate, in a season that is barely over halfway. He didn't earn these points and his total is now tarnished. It would appear as if the thing so important to you between Massa and Kimi has just be used to benefit Alonso. So using your logic and example I would think you would conclude Alonso results for 2010 will be forever in question as he was gifted his points as well, and the point total will not be a true measure of his race craft.

[Guest gforce56]

I only learned one thing , Massa is NOT slower than Alonso...

[HandyNZL 1]

Montymuzzywuzzyasafuzzyface has come out and said that he doesn't care about the polemics of it all as it was done to best benefit the team. I fail to see where finishing 1st and 2nd, is any better for the team had they held position and finished in 1st and 2nd. But this is Ferrari of 2010, wanting to change the rules every weekend to suit Montymuzzywuzzywasafuzzyface.

Comparing to IRL, which has two three car teams in its midst, I've yet to ever witness "team orders". I'm pretty sure there isn't even a rule covering team orders as such as it is in F1. It's still cars going in circles, and apart from more money swilling around in F1, the circles that the IRL guys go in seem to throw up better, fairer racing, and even fisticuffs between Helio and big security guards Now that's entertainment.

[Medilloni 6]

Alright, ........great post............this is the proper yardstick with which to measure these things.

Agree completely Mike, and posts that are now discussing recent events, I think have missed the point. The issue of team orders is more to do with tarnishing a product that's changed massively since the days it was accepted (Collins etc), it now has to consider those that pay, for the simple reason that the shift in F1's income is nothing like it used to be, not even comparible imo.

The 'product' is a completely different one to the past now, and because team orders have existed before it doesn't mean to say that the buyers of the product like them now (or have done in the last 20 years), in fact, today's 'buyer' absolutely doesn't want them (as Mike has done, I'm right on this ) - those that say they understand it, "it's always been there", "it's part of the sport"... whatever your feelings, can you really say, hand on heart, that you wouldn't prefer to see all the drivers having a fair crack at the championship, and at their standing (their 'true order', as far as it's possible to tell) at the end of the year?

A shift towards providing what the 'buying public' want, and what the teams really want, could be achieved by something as simple as outlawing team orders until there is no mathematical possibility of the '2nd' driver winning the WDC, then announce that the shift is going to the '1st' driver of that team - so that those watching understand that the game for that team has changed, and why.

Policing this would be incredibly simple, the FIA employ Mike and I to be the judges.

[maure 1]

Kimi was mathamatically eliminated from the WDC before he started yielding to Massa. Massa is not that far out of the championship. Take 7 points away from Alonso and add them to Massa's WDC total, and there is less then a victory between them. Even an Alonso fan should see this will tarnish Alonso's achievements at Ferrari this year. He has just been gifted 14 points over his team mate, in a season that is barely over halfway. He didn't earn these points and his total is now tarnished. It would appear as if the thing so important to you between Massa and Kimi has just be used to benefit Alonso. So using your logic and example I would think you would conclude Alonso results for 2010 will be forever in question as he was gifted his points as well, and the point total will not be a true measure of his race craft.

I don't know what Alonso's fans will think and it is a certainty that those that might consider whatever "tarnished" thought so before... a perfect example of the later is what you claim is a consequence of "my logic" (as if you could) when it is simply your own opinion, an opinion that was made up long long ago.

Besides which, you are just trying to side step the issue. Read my entire post and claim it all down. Then, we'll talk. Otherwise, you are just fighting for semicolons.

You get a pass, for now.

[maure 1]

I only learned one thing , Massa is NOT slower than Alonso...

Then, you've been drunk the entire season.

Consider this your first warning.

[maure 1]

Agree completely Mike, and posts that are now discussing recent events, I think have missed the point. The issue of team orders is more to do with tarnishing a product that's changed massively since the days it was accepted (Collins etc), it now has to consider those that pay, for the simple reason that the shift in F1's income is nothing like it used to be, not even comparible imo.

The 'product' is a completely different one to the past now, and because team orders have existed before it doesn't mean to say that the buyers of the product like them now (or have done in the last 20 years), in fact, today's 'buyer' absolutely doesn't want them (as Mike has done, I'm right on this ) - those that say they understand it, "it's always been there", "it's part of the sport"... whatever your feelings, can you really say, hand on heart, that you wouldn't prefer to see all the drivers having a fair crack at the championship, and at their standing (their 'true order', as far as it's possible to tell) at the end of the year?

A shift towards providing what the 'buying public' want, and what the teams really want, could be achieved by something as simple as outlawing team orders until there is no mathematical possibility of the '2nd' driver winning the WDC, then announce that the shift is going to the '1st' driver of that team - so that those watching understand that the game for that team has changed, and why.

Policing this would be incredibly simple, the FIA employ Mike and I to be the judges.

That you speak of this NOW after what we've seen at McLaren for years, that being a situation far far far far worse than this one... my friend, you are insulting yourself.

It's quite something what some of you guys tell yourselves in order to support your idols.

[Guest gforce56]

Then, you've been drunk the entire season.

Consider this your first warning.

I don't even drink. I was being sarcastic.

consider this your first

[Medilloni 6]

That you speak of this NOW after what we've seen at McLaren for years, that being a situation far far far far worse than this one... my friend, you are insulting yourself.

It's quite something what some of you guys tell yourselves in order to support your idols.

Nah, if I was trying to insult myself, I've proven on many occasions I can do better than that

Perhaps I should have worded my post better, when I said:

....and posts that are now discussing recent events, I think have missed the point.

...I was talking about the sport in general (idealistically, I agree), getting into a "they did this, he did that" is quite pointless to me (I don't mean this in an offensive way), I know it's gone on, sometimes in blatant ways, sometimes not - my wishy-washy point was that the sport should have bent with the wind of change to consider the changing market - the sponsors, spectators, TV companies, and other (healthy) marketing opportunities etc etc.

And to be clear, I don't have idols, though if one was close, it's the sport and the beautiful moments it's given to me, not todays teams or drivers.

[tifosi too! 0]

Alright, we've all heard countless quotes from drivers, fans, governing bodies and team principals about how everyone is part of a 'team'. But are they really? Part of a team, that is. And when I say part of a team I mean sacrificing everything for the advancement of the 'team'. If you work for Williams, you put in twelve hours on chassis manufacturing because of the team. If you're the left rear tyre guy you drill pit stops when you should be attending your daughter's birthday party...for the team. If you're a driver, you move over for your teammate or give him your front wing for the team.

Hold on. That's not right.

Ok, so those last two examples have been part of F1 for years, but the dynamic has changed since Collins gave his car to Fangio back when the world was sepia-toned. Back then, Collins made that decision because he mathematically couldn't have won the title...and Fangio could have. The incident that has paved the way for any and all agruments about team orders has, at it's roots, the de-bunking of team orders.

Let's sidetrack for a minute here and go back to the team. Who is part of a team and in what capacity? Well, the guys in the factory are certainly part of the team. Race and testing crew are as well. Management certainly are part of the team. Drivers......are somewhat part of the team. Consider that of all the 'members' of the team, only the drivers are competing in a completely separate championship than their employers are. This puts the driver in a sort of 'work for hire' situation. They choose a team in the hopes that the team can give them a car fast enough to make them World Champion. They are by nature *not* going to stay with one team for the life of their career unless they believe the team will always give them the best car. The Driver's Championship is *always* foremost in their minds (unless they've given up and are in it for the money..exceptions to the rules *do* happen).

So asking a pit crewman to work late is an expression of team spirit. He'll do it for the team because he's looking at the Constructor's Championship that he's competing in. Drivers being asked to sacrifice their World Champion position for the sake of their competitor (teammate or not) is *not* an expression of team spirit. Drivers walk a fine line with the teams that employ them. It's a relationship that's symbiotic in nature: Team gives driver X a fast car, driver X finishes high in the points, both driver X and team benefit. That beautiful relationship is breached when the team forces a driver to sacrifice the only reason he's in F1...the Driver's World Championship.

I know, it's been done in the past and is currently done...but it was never meant to be that way. If this was a complete team sport, we wouldn't have a driver's championship. So, now we know where a driver sits in relation to his employers. Now back to Collins/Fangio.

Notice that Collins made his decision based not on the team's desires but on his own standings in the Driver's Championship. This was never a case of team orders, but of a nice chap whos sense of fair play made him do Fangio a favor. Based on the Driver's Championship. Always the Driver's Championship.

So when things like what happened between Alonso and Massa come up, we need to judge them based on a correct view of a driver's role within the team.

Massa did what he did not for the team, but for a man that was leading him in the Championship. The Driver's Championship. Exactly like Collins/Fangio. I trust Massa's honesty enough to believe this.

A few weeks ago Mark Webber had a piece of his car taken and given to a man that was his direct competition for the championship. That move, at the time, breached the unwritten contract between driver and team. It was certainly team orders.

I know this will sound arrogant, but so be it: This is not my viewpoint, this is possibly not your viewpoint...this is the correct viewpoint. Agree or disagree as you will, but this is the proper yardstick with which to measure these things.

A very nice thread and some good points.

I agree up to the last paragraph. There is no such thing as the "only correct viewpoint" !

As long as we are outsiders, as long as we don't know how these people operate behind closed doors, we can only assume.

Massa didn't quit Ferrari after these last events and he knows why.

He didn't accuse his team and he even tried to cover things up and he knows why.

We don't.

[maure 1]

I don't even drink. I was being sarcastic.

consider this your first

And you are being sarcastic now too? Or...

Is telepathy a requirement to deal with you? Or...

Do you claim to change what you mean in order to suit the occasion?

Last, why is it that your reply oozes ego rather than anything at all relevant?

You are out of warnings. You don't have to care. It makes no difference.

[maure 1]

Autumnpuma, medilloni, YHR and other wildlife.

I like you guys... including the ones I've already blocked out. It's not an issue of "personalities", "dislikes", or whatever. I don't give a fvck in that respect.

The fact is that there was a time for playing with Alonsomaniacs and that time came to pass. The fact is that there was a time to play with lewisterics and that time has ALSO come to pass. You might no give a sht, but I'll block you too.

Why? Because your fixation contributes nothing.

Examples from this thread:

1. Trying to match "mathematical impossibilities" with "what the public desires" is a contradicion. You can have one or the other. Never both for any compromise on this matter is as much bullsht as it would be on any other matter.

2. If Alonso is "tarnished" because he violated some "law of mathematical impossibilities" (and how ever the fck that is supposed to rhyme with "what the public desires"), then AGAIN what of Hamilton? Kova was discriminated the moment he signed on. Forget "mathematical impossibilities" or "what the public desires". The treatment of Kova was unexcusable but what Hamilton has accomplished or has failed to accomplish is its own thing, not independent but its own thing. In simpler words, if all you have of Hamilton (and his championship) is the humiliation of Kova, you understand _nothing_ and you've got _nothing_ to contribute.

As you can see from both examples, arguing with lewisterics leads nowhere. The fanboy approach was fun and it is now over as far as I'm concerned... and at least until a new fad comes along. Then I'll toy with those goons until I'm bored.

So contribute rational stuff with your intellect or go fvck yourselves.

[Medilloni 6]

Autumnpuma, medilloni, YHR and other wildlife.

I like you guys... So contribute rational stuff with your intellect or go fvck yourselves.

I feel truly humbled in the presence of such artful arrogance

[maure 1]

I feel truly humbled in the presence of such artful arrogance

What you said amounts to bending over enough to breath in one's one fart. You made it up, you swallowed it up.

Again, it isn't an issue of arrogance or any other pesonality traits. You can be the biggest jackarse on the planet and it's fine by me as long as you've got something to say that merits to be replied to.

Read my previous post. It's all there. Get it or don't. It's all the same if you don't play. And if it is the same, then fvck off.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Maure. Question.

Can't the public desire the team to 'be fair' up until that point when a driver CANNOT win a championship due to points tally?

Does that make sense? Or am I just being stupid?

[Guest gforce56]

And you are being sarcastic now too? Or...

Is telepathy a requirement to deal with you? Or...

Do you claim to change what you mean in order to suit the occasion?

Last, why is it that your reply oozes ego rather than anything at all relevant?

You are out of warnings. You don't have to care. It makes no difference.

I am a big fan of Felipe and I was pointing out that he is back. Whether that means something to you , really does not count in my watch. I was just stating a comment in general and not directed to you but you replied with arrogance so, whatever.

Yes, I agree with you. It makes no difference with me either whether you are being bully to the newbies here or just picking on foreigners. Least you can do is welcome new guys like me here so it will be a better place to chat but I guess that's not the whole purpose of you being here.

You can warn me as much as you like, I am not enjoying replying either to begin with.

One last advice to you, Chill out.

[maure 1]

Maure. Question.

Can't the public desire the team to 'be fair' up until that point when a driver CANNOT win a championship due to points tally?

Does that make sense? Or am I just being stupid?

You are not being stupid. I understand where you are coming from.

The problem lies in the compromise. On the one hand, "while it is possible, fight it out". On the other hand, "give the public real racing". There is a conflict of interests here. If the public wants real racing, then they simply fcking want it. Who gives a damn about mathematics. In other words, were one to be able to determine what the public actually "wants" then one would have to take it a step further and able to determine what the public wants to what "degree". It's fvcking voodoo at best. One can theorize, perhaps run polls and then theorize but, as you'll se below, the press trumps public opinion which in turn upsets individual opinions.

But the problem is even worse. Mathematical impossibility means what exactly and in the eyes of _who_. What I mean is that you can have a driver that could _theoretically_ win the championship by one point if he wins the last 8 races in a row while his teammate just needs to finish in the podiums or there abouts in the points. Probability takes over impossibility quickly. I gave a extreme example, but many plausible ones could be put forth. Moreover, there is consistency of performance to be taken into consideration. So, there, probability and historical performance supersede mathematical impossibility.

Now bring the two together. Who can really determine what the "public" (whoever the fvck they are, anyway) is willing to compromise on? Is that "public" national? International? How are the "opinions" of this "public" being evaluated? Even if such a thing could happen, the results would be seriously influenced by the media and the media has its own agenda, namely, sell itself. In order to do that, they don't give a sht about mathematical impossibilities or public wants. The press gives a sht about peddling soap opera crap based on, _generally_, our collective lower instincts, namely (and in any order, for now), race, sex, age, ethnicity, religion, etc.

But it gets worse. Once you realize that in order to integrate two contradictory notions ("public desire of racing" versus "mathematical possibility or probability"), you are giving the green flag to mix all kinds of contradictory notions. After all, how can one decide which one is best when the foundational assumptions are subjective... when evidently arbritary or random.

Dribbler described the reality of the situation with fvkcing pristine quality... although I think it was me who said that teams have their own interest and they'll pursue them, for better or worse. You can't fight that. You can only drive it underground.

If there is a question, that question should be, does the "public" want to be lied better? The answer is generally yes... but who gives a fvck about the "public" anyway when they are but pawns in someone else's interests (the press) and this interests are tangencial (at best) to F1?

[maure 1]

Last favour.

I am a big fan of Felipe and I was pointing out that he is back. Whether that means something to you , really does not count in my watch. I was just stating a comment in general and not directed to you but you replied with arrogance so, whatever.

So _now_ it is not about irony. You do think that one race shows that Massa is back. Ok. I hear ya. Done.

Also, if you think I'm arrogant, you understand nothing of me... unsurprising since, as you say, you are new around here.

I'm just moving on. It doesn't revolve around you individually. My advice to you is to stick around and you will find others that might be kindred spirits... or not. The web is unnecessarily humongous. Don't worry. If not here, somewhere else. You know all this.

Yes, I agree with you. It makes no difference with me either whether you are being bully to the newbies here or just picking on foreigners. Least you can do is welcome new guys like me here so it will be a better place to chat but I guess that's not the whole purpose of you being here.

You miss the point. All you say here is irrelevant. But I'll reply so perhaps you get it:

1. We are all foreigners.

2. Regarding the welcome, welcome. My own welcome was an insult followed by a lynching...

3. Now, put up or be shut up.

You can warn me as much as you like, I am not enjoying replying either to begin with.

One last advice to you, Chill out.

Don't care enough to chill or warm. It isn't personal (to me).

PM me (if you care) once you have something to say that's worth replying to. You are now blocked. Baaaa-baaay.

[Quiet One 15]

Now that the media outrage has calmed down and the search for the usual scapegoats have tapered off, the aftermath is that the often criticised team order's ban is in crisis.

Two good readings on this:

- James Allen's blog "What should FIA do about team orders?"

- Grandprix.com article on the same subject.

[YHR 0]

I don't know what Alonso's fans will think and it is a certainty that those that might consider whatever "tarnished" thought so before... a perfect example of the later is what you claim is a consequence of "my logic" (as if you could) when it is simply your own opinion, an opinion that was made up long long ago.

Besides which, you are just trying to side step the issue. Read my entire post and claim it all down. Then, we'll talk. Otherwise, you are just fighting for semicolons.

You get a pass, for now.

First of all I am an Alonso fan. I think he is one of the best drivers in the field. I am also a Massa fan as I feel he has matured as a driver, and has faired well against the "best" in equal equipment so these results are really the only true comparisons we can make. As a fan of both drivers, it was unfortunate that Ferrari has shown favoritism to Alonso so early in the game, because I really would have like to have known how Massa really stacked up against Alonso this season. IF Ferrari hadn't enginered this result Massa would be 14 points closer to Alonso then he is now. Do the arithmetic. The fight was still on. Ferrari's actions have told all of us that Alonso will always finish ahead of Massa. Massa's only hope is that if Alonso has a couple of bad results.

Also before Kimi yielded to Massa he was mathematically eliminated from the championship. So obviously the rules within the team have changed this year. Contract stipulations maybe, Maybe fair fight until halfway, and then whoever is in the lead at the midpoint gets preferrential treatment to the end of the year. Who knows why it happened, but it has happened, and for me personally it has skewed one of the things I find enjoyable in watching F1.

It will be harder to evaluate the drivers against each other with this knowledge of what has happened. When Comparing this season and the driver results there will always have to be a disclaimer attached to the results because of Ferrari's actions.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

I agree with Puma at a certain point. Ferrari is the most succesful team in F1 history. Fact. The other teams with the exception of macca and some seasons of reno and williams are just partenaires. Ferrari took the right decision? Who knows even why they took it. Lets wait and see. All this crap could be avoided if the FiA didn´t destroy Hockenheim! No is a gokart track with no overtake places!

Since there is a team, there are priorities and decision in favour and against drivers. I think people is making a lot of noise for something Macca and Red Bull, and the whole teams are doing every race! The difference is Ferrari do it in a very bad way! Nevertheless I hope jense will fight sometime Lewis again...

Edit: Maurre, everything is relative, nothing is absolute even this sentence, your opinion and this threat!