KoolMonkey

I Guess That'S Finally It Then... Kimi Gone For Good :(

670 posts in this topic

All success is relative, to a certain degree. In the short term (or short-sight), the backmarkers are satisfied with beating their immediate rivals and teammates. In the long term (or big picture) they are hoping their good performances will lead to a seat in a bigger team where they can fight for race wins. I was ignoring the short term argument, because it's only a stepping stone, and focusing on the big picture. The ultimate goal. To win races. That is the true motivation and your statement about 'potential purchasers in 2013' seems to suggest you agree with me.

I disagree that all drivers are realistic. Every one of them thinks they are the same as Vettel if they only had his car. They are only realistic when reality hits them on the head and even then they fight it tooth-and-nail. (look at Webber..he's finially admitting to himself that Vettel is, in fact, better.....because there is no other conclusion he can draw).

It's an interesting talking point, actually. Drivers are smart enought to know where their car is ranked versus the competition, but their personal performance versus the other drivers is a constantly moving variable.

I'm thinking about Button and Hamilton. Imagine just how incredible Jenson must be feeling. He never lost faith in his own ability, even though the masses concluded that Hamilton was better and faster. He also had historical data to fight against; Hamilton was unbeaten by a team mate. And yet, look at what he has done. His self belief must be at an all time high. It's surely an example to other drivers who are in the lunchtime/early afternoon of their career who have not had the opportunity to have a great car yet. It will also be a reminder that no matter how good you think you are, there is room for improvement.

So, the question is, how many drivers out there believe they are the best and how many beleive they could be if they improve? Admitting you could improve and are therefore not the best is a potentially dangerous mindset for the weak, but a fantastic one if you are strong, a la Button.

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It's an interesting talking point, actually. Drivers are smart enought to know where their car is ranked versus the competition, but their personal performance versus the other drivers is a constantly moving variable.

I'm thinking about Button and Hamilton. Imagine just how incredible Jenson must be feeling. He never lost faith in his own ability, even though the masses concluded that Hamilton was better and faster. He also had historical data to fight against; Hamilton was unbeaten by a team mate. And yet, look at what he has done. His self belief must be at an all time high. It's surely an example to other drivers who are in the lunchtime/early afternoon of their career who have not had the opportunity to have a great car yet. It will also be a reminder that no matter how good you think you are, there is room for improvement.

So, the question is, how many drivers out there believe they are the best and how many beleive they could be if they improve? Admitting you could improve and are therefore not the best is a potentially dangerous mindset for the weak, but a fantastic one if you are strong, a la Button.

True, its said that Button is in the form of his life, I hope it continues next year. The thing is, he was complaining about setup and grip(?) numorous time and once they sorted that out he just went from strengh to strengh.

It will be a nice challenge as a fan to see what Kimi really does in that Williams, if it's a midfield car...

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So, the question is, how many drivers out there believe they are the best and how many beleive they could be if they improve? Admitting you could improve and are therefore not the best is a potentially dangerous mindset for the weak, but a fantastic one if you are strong, a la Button.

Interesting...

Was thinking about this myself - still watching old F1 and was watching 1992 Mexico GP. Not a thrilling race in its own right - Mansell went off and dominated with Schui showing some good form.

What struck me was a lot of the coverage was on a battle between Berger and Brundle - two drivers who themselves are not necessarily thought of as being "top of class" and both of whom were team-mates to then much-talked-about bigger talent (Senna and Schumacher respectively).

Berger was silky smooth and reminded me of Button's driving - fast, but very calmly getting on with it, smooth. Brundle had a very different driving style, attacking the corners. At one point I thought the camera was picking up his team mate and then realised it was Brundle as they had similar styles.

Now, not for one minute suggesting Brundle and Berger are at the same level as Senna/Schui (history proved otherwise) but did make me wonder if they were the lead drivers over more junior talent and pyschologically had their heads in a better place, whether they would have scored better.......??? eusa_think.gif

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Now, not for one minute suggesting Brundle and Berger are at the same level as Senna/Schui (history proved otherwise) but did make me wonder if they were the lead drivers over more junior talent and pyschologically had their heads in a better place, whether they would have scored better.......???

I doubt it. If they were hindered by inferior equipment or not given every opportunity to elevate themselves above their team mates then, yes there might be a case for your argument. But I believe that Berger and Brundle specifically had the self belief and the strength of character to be the lead drivers, if they would have been capable. the fact is, they didn't.

In conclusion, I doubt they would have been better without Senna or Schumacher being there. If anything, they may not have pushed as hard and may have been worse.

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It's an interesting talking point, actually. Drivers are smart enought to know where their car is ranked versus the competition, but their personal performance versus the other drivers is a constantly moving variable.

I'm thinking about Button and Hamilton. Imagine just how incredible Jenson must be feeling. He never lost faith in his own ability, even though the masses concluded that Hamilton was better and faster. He also had historical data to fight against; Hamilton was unbeaten by a team mate. And yet, look at what he has done. His self belief must be at an all time high. It's surely an example to other drivers who are in the lunchtime/early afternoon of their career who have not had the opportunity to have a great car yet. It will also be a reminder that no matter how good you think you are, there is room for improvement.

So, the question is, how many drivers out there believe they are the best and how many beleive they could be if they improve? Admitting you could improve and are therefore not the best is a potentially dangerous mindset for the weak, but a fantastic one if you are strong, a la Button.

I have long thought that a good driver can lose faith in his ability when paired with a devastatingly good teammate. They can also lose faith when they're driving a crapwagon and it takes a few years in a good car/team to come 'back' from that. This spins nicely with what I *wanted* to say about Kimi...more on that in a sec.

Negative Ions: I took your post in the absolute sense (that Kimi didn't care about winning races), not in the sense that Steve described (Williams being a stepping-stone to a winning team). What I missed, in my haste to point out how you were wrong, was that you *did* mention that you meant your statement in the same way that Steve did (which I agree with, actually). So my apologies to you for the gut reaction.

Now, what I wanted to say about Kimi, and did so clumsily, was this:

Why is a former World Champion scraping the mid-barrel for a drive at Williams (who have no hope of delivering a car that is worthy of Kimi)? I get the stepping-stone argument, but I would expect that strategery from a new driver, not a seasoned World Champion and proven race winner. Kimi isn't JV with all the bad reputations the son of Gilles was carrying around. A look at the sharp end of the grid leaves me scratching my head in wonder at why Kimi is gunning for Williams.

Red Bull: I know Webber has a contract for 2012, but contracts can be bought out and a Vettel/Kimi combo would surely be better than Vettel/Webber.

McLaren: Not a chance. I see them happy with Button/Hamilton...at least for now.

Ferrari: I'm not sure what bridges may have been burned when Kimi left them, but he almost won them a Championship in the crapwagon they gave him to drive. That horrid car destroyed Fish's reputation and career, but Kimi hauled it onto quite a few podiums. Certainly he would be better than a brain-damaged Massa...

Mercedes: What sane team would retain Mikey in his current form when you could have Kimi? 'nuff said.

Renault: There's still some potential in this team and Kimi alone is worth more than both their drivers. What sponsorship they'll lose from dropping Petrov they will gain in using Kimi's pretty face in their sponsor's ads.

Below Renault you get teams that are no better or worse than Williams' potential.

So, there are a few options that Kimi didn't land. What does the paddock know about Kimi that we fans don't? They can't all be insane, can they (well...I suppose they can be). There's that 'cant set-up a car, lazy' bugaboo out there, but surely that's only fan drivel, right? Unless there's some truth to it and the teams know it. They talk amongst themselves and know far more about Kimi's work habits than we do.

Is it because he's been out of F1 for a while? Do people seriously believe this will affect him? Bruno Senna was out of F1 for a year and popped back into it just fine. I would expect someone like Kimi to jump back in and be quick from the outset.

My fear is that a season in a crapwagon Williams will be more detrimental to him (psychologically) than waiting for a drive in 2013. I dunno. Anyone have some insight?

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I don't understand why he would want to return with Williams/a team with little opportunities either. He doesn't need any money, and I'm guessing isn't interested in his reputation in the sport or feels the need to prove anything, and I doubt he's trying to build up a team around him. So that leaves one obvious option to me, the "why the hell not" option: he just likes racing and wants to have fun (kinda like Schumi's motivations for returning). The same reason he tried out NASCAR and did rallying. The main difference here is that at least he's pretty good if not great in a single seater.

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That would fit with what I know of Kimi's personality (gleaned from observation and articles....probably not the best of sources). The 'I like racing and Williams doesn't suck' argument is a good one, I think. I can buy that.

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That would fit with what I know of Kimi's personality (gleaned from observation and articles....probably not the best of sources). The 'I like racing and Williams doesn't suck' argument is a good one, I think. I can buy that.

Some good posts above. I think that the nail may have been hit on the head.

Kimi likes to drive, he likes to push a machine to its limits. Reading your earlier post Puma I think that Kimi may well have damaged his brand a bit in F1, because he is so anti-publicity, and his stint at Ferrari for right or wrong made him look like the bad guy.

Personally I also think that drivers who drive midfield cars and perform get a hell of a lot of recognition, like Vettel in the Toro Rosso, or Sutil in the Force India (albeit he is not as consistent?). Anyway any driver that owns his team mate, and hauls a POS further up the grid is recognised as a prestigious talent in F1, because everyone knows that the sport is based so heavily on the cars performance (which I dislike but thats another post). if Kimi puts in a Sh#t-hot year next year, we will see him in a top team the following year. I can feel the goosebumps already...

Edited by Negative Ions

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Some good posts above. I think that the nail may have been hit on the head.

Kimi likes to drive, he likes to push a machine to its limits. Reading your earlier post Puma I think that Kimi may well have damaged his brand a bit in F1, because he is so anti-publicity, and his stint at Ferrari for right or wrong made him look like the bad guy.

Personally I also think that drivers who drive midfield cars and perform get a hell of a lot of recognition, like Vettel in the Toro Rosso, or Sutil in the Force India (albeit he is not as consistent?). Anyway any driver that owns his team mate, and hauls a POS further up the grid is recognised as a prestigious talent in F1, because everyone knows that the sport is based so heavily on the cars performance (which I dislike but thats another post). if Kimi puts in a Sh#t-hot year next year, we will see him in a top team the following year. I can feel the goosebumps already...

Correct, the good thing about Kimi joining a mid-field team is that he'll be super-motivated to perform, and thus be at his best!!!

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Some good posts above. I think that the nail may have been hit on the head.

Kimi likes to drive, he likes to push a machine to its limits. Reading your earlier post Puma I think that Kimi may well have damaged his brand a bit in F1, because he is so anti-publicity, and his stint at Ferrari for right or wrong made him look like the bad guy.

Personally I also think that drivers who drive midfield cars and perform get a hell of a lot of recognition, like Vettel in the Toro Rosso, or Sutil in the Force India (albeit he is not as consistent?). Anyway any driver that owns his team mate, and hauls a POS further up the grid is recognised as a prestigious talent in F1, because everyone knows that the sport is based so heavily on the cars performance (which I dislike but thats another post). if Kimi puts in a Sh#t-hot year next year, we will see him in a top team the following year. I can feel the goosebumps already...

Correct, the good thing about Kimi joining a mid-field team is that he'll be super-motivated to perform, and thus be at his best!!!

Yeah, but I'm trying to figure out WHY a driver of Kimi's caliber needs to impress anyone to get a drive in a top team. Like I said, this isn't JV we're talking about. Kimi may have a reputation (deserved or not) of being lazy, but so was Mansell. Kimi will rock the Williams, to be sure, but by how much and will anyone be watching the midfield anyway?

And there's the fact that some drivers, when stuck in a crap car, tend to lose their edge. Rubens was always a fast, solid driver with a record that matches the likes of Webber and certainly beats Petrov and Rosberg. Yet he languishes midfield at Williams. Nobody notices his good drives and nobody cares. I wonder if this will be Kimi's fate...

Signing for Williams is a bad idea. I would like to be proven wrong. Time shall tell.

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Perhaps there's a Schumi factor involved?

i.e. It might now be generally presumed that no matter how good a driver was, he needs a season to settle in before he should be given a top seat after a few years out. Granted Kimi hasn't been gone as long, but it might be that a top team would like to give a seat to Kimi, but fear a lost season.

In fact, if I were Horner and Kimi approached RedBull, I might say exactly that to him... get a seat in a mid-field team and show me you've still got it, if so, we can talk about 2013.

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Perhaps there's a Schumi factor involved?

i.e. It might now be generally presumed that no matter how good a driver was, he needs a season to settle in before he should be given a top seat after a few years out. Granted Kimi hasn't been gone as long, but it might be that a top team would like to give a seat to Kimi, but fear a lost season.

In fact, if I were Horner and Kimi approached RedBull, I might say exactly that to him... get a seat in a mid-field team and show me you've still got it, if so, we can talk about 2013.

thbup.gif

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Yeah, but I'm trying to figure out WHY a driver of Kimi's caliber needs to impress anyone to get a drive in a top team. Like I said, this isn't JV we're talking about. Kimi may have a reputation (deserved or not) of being lazy, but so was Mansell. Kimi will rock the Williams, to be sure, but by how much and will anyone be watching the midfield anyway?

And there's the fact that some drivers, when stuck in a crap car, tend to lose their edge. Rubens was always a fast, solid driver with a record that matches the likes of Webber and certainly beats Petrov and Rosberg. Yet he languishes midfield at Williams. Nobody notices his good drives and nobody cares. I wonder if this will be Kimi's fate...

Signing for Williams is a bad idea. I would like to be proven wrong. Time shall tell.

Maybe there's something about the top teams (other than Redbull, perhaps) that Kimi doesn't like so much?

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Maybe there's something about the top teams (other than Redbull, perhaps) that Kimi doesn't like so much?

I never thought about this, and this is actually another good and valid point. Maybe the fact that he can "hide" more from media scrutiny assisted his decision...

very good point Jez :thbup: , glad to see you popped in again :)

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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I think Adam and Mike between them have this one nailed;

Kimi is high calibre, but his reputation is tarnished by a peceived laziness and the fact that Massa beat him over a season.

The best way to return in those circumstances is out perform a car, no matter how good or bad it is.

I have every confidence he can and will. The world is then his oyster (or ice cream).

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But he is not racing for Williams next year.

Nor Macca (they have Lewis and Jense)

Nor RBR (they have Vettel and Webber)

Nor Ferrari (they have Alonso and Massa)

If he pop's up anywhere, it would be Lada or Renault or Lotus or whoever the fook they are going to be next year.

Expect Williams to be Sutil and Maldonado next year.

That is all. You may continue your dream now.

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Could it be!? http://www.inautonews.com/williams-to-announce-raikkonen-deal-in-abu-dhabi

Nov.3 (GMM/Inautonews.com) Williams is almost ready to announce Kimi Raikkonen’s return to formula one for 2012, according to media reports.

“(The) Raikkonen (agreement) is almost there,” a source inside the famous British team is quoted by FAZ newspaper.

Italy’s Autosprint reports that the funding is coming from Qatar.

Williams on Wednesday hinted at the deal by revealing that a memorandum of understanding with Mowasalat, a Qatari company, was signed in Doha for the use of the team’s simulator technology.

“The funding for the ‘Iceman’ is coming from the heat of Qatar,” said the Italian magazine.

The Finnish broadcaster MTV3 said the sponsorship of a Qatar bank is the next step.

That will validate a contract that Raikkonen, 32, reportedly signed recently “and the announcement will be made in Abu Dhabi” next weekend.

The Swiss publication Motorsport Aktuell said the 2007 world champion is Williams’ “first choice” to be Pastor Maldonado’s new teammate.

“He (Raikkonen) has been at Grove several times for talks,” the report added.

Some things that came to mind. No one is talking about Rubens. I think it's pretty safe to say it's game over for him whether Kimi has signed or not. For all his talk of experience he's done little to show for it in being able to improve a car. He lucked into the Brawn just like Button so I don't credit his input for that freakish year. Bar/Honda years produced little. His Williams tenure even worse.

As for Kimi at Williams, the Qatar connection is massive. Williams will get a ton of new money and Kimi get's a nice contract. It also reads to me as though Williams had to secure proper funding first before securing a proper contract with Kimi.

Anyway right now I'm excited. Love him or hate him, but people are paying attention about him and have for the past few years, whether it was heading to McLaren, Mercedes, Kubica's replacement or now heading to Williams. Apart from Schumi, no other modern driver has had this much interest from fans, haters, and fence sitters while not currently participating the F1 calendar.

My wish... to see him win at Spa again!

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My wish... to see him win at Spa again!

Brace yourself then for Spa 2012, he can win that race in a mediocre car youknow, it's a proper driver's circuit... :D

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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Brace yourself then for Spa 2012, he can win that race in a mediocre car youknow, it's a proper driver's circuit... :D

That Williams is going to look sooo pink through your glasses, dearest Bradley.

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That Williams is going to look sooo pink through your glasses, dearest Bradley.

I hope they bring that Walrus nose back, should be fun :D

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I hope they bring that Walrus nose back, should be fun :D

No way. Even if Kubica recovers enough to race again he is headed back to Renault and...

Oh, that was not the nose you were talking about. My bad.

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No way. Even if Kubica recovers enough to race again he is headed back to Renault and...

Oh, that was not the nose you were talking about. My bad.

laugh.gif

... actually talking about kubi - are we expecting him back next year or what? things have gone quiet recently - me thinks that might not bode well.

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laugh.gif

... actually talking about kubi - are we expecting him back next year or what? things have gone quiet recently - me thinks that might not bode well.

I hope he gets back. Petrov and Senna are not fun enough to compensate for the lack of mojo at Team Poochie. They need Kubi and some serious commitment/money from the upper echelons.

Otherwise, it's gonna be hasta la vista, Poochie :(

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I never thought about this, and this is actually another good and valid point. Maybe the fact that he can "hide" more from media scrutiny assisted his decision...

very good point Jez :thbup: , glad to see you popped in again :)

Cheers mate, yeah its been a while between visits. Looks like some familiar faces are around smile.gif

Otherwise, it's gonna be hasta la vista, Poochie :(

laugh.gif

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I feel sorry for Kubi fans, but I can't see him coming back to F1 anytime soon. Maybe a token drive around the track like Alex Zanardi was able to do after his accident.

However the news in the press about him being ready, then him not being ready and there being no visible signs he's close to be healed should tell you all you need to know. I think the doctors and his managers are engaging in stalling tactics to make it seem like "next week", "soon!". When in reality he may never have proper control of his hand again. If he truly was making progress, we'd see him training, having interviews etc. But all this silence is not good. Renault have been patient, but I guess don't have many good options at the moment. There's simply no way they are going to wait and wait on this.

I'm trying to be realistic here but from almost having your hand severed to flying around an F1 circuit ain't gonna happen in such a short time frame.

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