Vettel For Rehab?

[Insider 0]

Of course, as everyone knows, I am a huge fan of Jenson Button but this topic is not a sour grapes reaction to the events at Spa, more an overview of Sebastian Vettel's driving abilities. Down the years, there have been many drivers who could hurtle an F1 car at great speed over a single lap but only a handful who had the skill to effectively 'race' a car with any modicum of consistency. Many observers, including myself have thought that Vettel might aspire to such elite company one day but it has become patently clear that he has a million miles to go. He is seemingly clueless when it comes to overtaking other drivers, including his own team mate. I believe he is a major danger to the entire field and needs some serious lessons in racecraft. He has an extremely fast car but a very slow brain it would appear. Personally, I'd rather have Kobi or Chandok in my team any day. There would be a lot less whingeing too.

[Quiet One 15]

Guess Vettel hasn't made many new friends among the Buttonites after Spa.

Anyways, I also think that he is still a guy capable of becoming a WDC, given a fast enough car (then again, Massa was almost one) but hardlly a great driver per se. He has the speed, granted. He knows how to manage a race from pole to finish, granted (despite some setbacks this year). But he is still far from a mature driver, and too close to being a spoilt kid. The fact tha Horner mentioned 3 times the world mature or maturity in his praise of Webber's 2nd place speaks volumes on what he must be starting to ponder about his young marvel.

Definitely not the new Schumi. Maybe given enough time, but then again, that could also be said of Alguersuari.

[Max Mosley 2]

I'm glad you guys started a thread like this off. It's something I had been meaning to do but of course mine would have been far more vitriolic and self-righteous. I've been saying Vettel's over-rated since before he left high school. Sure he has talent and raw pace but even these he doesn't always deliver, and that's before we factor in his ability to make an incident out of any situation. He didn't beat Webber by that much on points last season and is behind him this year - and before RBR gave him a wonder-car no one thought Webber was amazing.

[subiedude 0]

I dont think we really know what happened yesterday as it may have been a combination of mis-judgement, brake problem or wet weather. We do know that SV has had more than his share of vehicle failures and if had not had those, he would be leading the championship. He accepted responsibility for the incident and apologized to JB in person. The fact is that SV is very fast and has more potential talent than anyone else in the field. Lewis is a huge talent and IMO he is several steps better than JB. Young fast drivers make mistakes and sometimes they have car failures. Thinking of Kimi and he lost two championships due to major car failures at McLaren that nearly killed him. The older the drivers get, the more experience and knowledge thy gain to know what potential problems could happen if they make a certain move. SV needed this twice this year in his incidents with Webber and JB. Things need to fall in place for SV soon or he may never improve or win a championship as so many talented guys before experienced.

[Quiet One 15]

I would not accuse Sv for what happened with JB. In fact, I think that the stewards were pretty idiotic in penalizing Vettel as his manoeuvre was a little bit on the optimistic side but it was clearly a totally innocent manoeuvre, it was fate what turned it into a nightmare for both drivers and totally unexpected. But we are talking about his general attitude.

In that sense, he still needs to learn a lot to become a great driver. That doesn't mean he cannot be a WDC. To become a WDC you just need to be a decent driver and have a superb car...or have both LH and FA on the same team, in which case even Bruno Senna has a chance

OT: There was this shot of Bruno at his pitbox removing his helmet. It was so shocking to see for a nanosecond Ayrton there, gave me goosebumps. The resemblance is astonishing at first sight.

[Rainmaster 7]

There have certainly been question marks about Seb Vettel's racecraft for some time now, and I think some of those questions are turning into answers now: Vettel is certainly no Felipe Massa but he is prone to misjudgements in the racecraft area. I don't think his collision in Spa with Button was a rookie mistake or even a silly error on his part, and I think we have seen drivers make similar kinds of errors over the years, but it isn't the first time Vettel has had an issue when following another driver (I don't actually think in this case he was attempting an overtake when it happened). He even made contact when overtaking someone else later on (Liuzzi?) - so yes, he has a problem there. He is still a little unrefined and impatient in the art of overtaking, in contrast to a Button or a Hamilton for example.

Vettel is, of course, still young. But I'm not sure he or his defenders can play the "inexperienced" card any longer. However, I do agree with a point raised by the BBC guys about young drivers finding a successful car almost too quickly, and how that can be damaging. It's probably better to go through the years of driving slower cars nearer to the back of the field, to get all of these mistakes out of the way early on without the weight of the world on your shoulders trying to fight for a title. I think Vettel will mature (in the way that it looks like Hamilton has) but it's a shame he has to do it with so much scrutiny on him.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

He has the speed, granted. He knows how to manage a race from pole to finish, granted (despite some setbacks this year). But he is still far from a mature driver, and too close to being a spoilt kid. The fact tha Horner mentioned 3 times the world mature or maturity in his praise of Webber's 2nd place speaks volumes on what he must be starting to ponder about his young marvel.

Yes, it all boils down to being more mature, we forget how young he still is, something like 10 years to Webber? Look at Hamilton and how he grew the last year or so, mainly down to his teammate I guess. I actually think Vettel would do well losing the championship to Webber, and learning from it....

[BradSpeedMan 6]

There have certainly been question marks about Seb Vettel's racecraft for some time now, and I think some of those questions are turning into answers now: Vettel is certainly no Felipe Massa but he is prone to misjudgements in the racecraft area. I don't think his collision in Spa with Button was a rookie mistake or even a silly error on his part, and I think we have seen drivers make similar kinds of errors over the years, but it isn't the first time Vettel has had an issue when following another driver (I don't actually think in this case he was attempting an overtake when it happened). He even made contact when overtaking someone else later on (Liuzzi?) - so yes, he has a problem there. He is still a little unrefined and impatient in the art of overtaking, in contrast to a Button or a Hamilton for example.

Vettel is, of course, still young. But I'm not sure he or his defenders can play the "inexperienced" card any longer. However, I do agree with a point raised by the BBC guys about young drivers finding a successful car almost too quickly, and how that can be damaging. It's probably better to go through the years of driving slower cars nearer to the back of the field, to get all of these mistakes out of the way early on without the weight of the world on your shoulders trying to fight for a title. I think Vettel will mature (in the way that it looks like Hamilton has) but it's a shame he has to do it with so much scrutiny on him.

nice post prof

lovely stuff

[Silas Talbot 0]

I would not accuse Sv for what happened with JB. In fact, I think that the stewards were pretty idiotic in penalizing Vettel as his manoeuvre was a little bit on the optimistic side but it was clearly a totally innocent manoeuvre, it was fate what turned it into a nightmare for both drivers and totally unexpected. But we are talking about his general attitude.

In that sense, he still needs to learn a lot to become a great driver. That doesn't mean he cannot be a WDC.

To become a WDC you just need to be a decent driver and have a superb car...or have both LH and FA on the same team, in which case even Bruno Senna has a chance

OT: There was this shot of Bruno at his pitbox removing his helmet. It was so shocking to see for a nanosecond Ayrton there, gave me goosebumps. The resemblance is astonishing at first sight.

[freaky2 1]

I agree with George, mostly, and I think that if he hadn't been called "the new Schumacher" so early when he was a nice and promising kid we wouldn't be seeing this now, or at least it wouldn't be so bad.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Well, he's becoming quite the arrogant git, but he's still pretty quick. He's making too many dumb mistakes, though, and he reminds me of Kimi (though Kimi never had the arrogant streak Seb has developed). His spearing of JB demonstrated the same lack of thought that mashing into Webber demonstrated a few races ago. It was a bit of a racing incident, but still, the track was damp and any idiot could see that jinking the wheel left and right wasn't going to end well. Really, after seeing the right-left move, was anyone surprised that he lost control?

[mikathegreat2 2]

Sebastian lost control while on a wet part of the track, it happens! I bet if he ploughed into Rosberg you wouldn't create a thread about him !

[HandyNZL 1]

Sebastian lost control while on a wet part of the track, it happens! I bet if he ploughed into Rosberg you wouldn't create a thread about him !

I would, because that would make the 1,000,000mth person this year he has crashed into, and for that he can collect a prize.

But seriously, yes, he sucks at overtaking skilled drivers, and often resorts to bumper cars to force his way through. I think he would be fantastic in Super V8's with that mentality, but not in F1. He needs to learn to pressure the driver in front, or find a clean piece of track to overtake.

[yurp 0]

where seb lacks is keeping his head when his race has been compromised.

he can go fast.

he can control a race from pole to finish.

he can spend a race chasing the car ahead and occasionally pass them.

unfortunately when he gets a penalty, has an off-track moment, a little shunt, a bad pit stop, gets overtaken or has an engine problem, he looses his focus and makes matters worse for himself by becoming impatient and petulant in his driving.

hamilton has impressed me this year because he seems to have learnt to focus his agression better and keep a lid on the temptation to go for questionable moves whilst still retaining his ability to pass people without compromise when the opportunity arises.

vettel has to learn this too. he has to learn to race in exactly the same fashion no matter what position he's in and no matter what has happened in the race up until that point. he has to put emotions aside and drive as he knows how rather then getting annoyed by what's happened thus far and letting that affect his decision making.

[dribbler 6]

Seb made a mistake at a pivotal time of the season and in a very high profile way. Combined with the fact that he has made other errors, it is no wonder that many of us are calling him into question.

Thing is, driving something fast but a bit unreliable and I guess you become like it. Like his car, it's easier to make him reliable and keep the speed there rather than try and force his speed, a la Massa, for example.

That's why when the dust settles he'll be fine, albeit one title down, compared to Mark.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Whoa.

This was just a racing incident in my view.

Personally I'm not Vettel's biggest fan, however if we're gonna start dissecting his driving, lets pick on a few others too.

What? You expect me to go first? Not a chance!

I think I've made my point.

[Insider 0]

Sebastian lost control while on a wet part of the track, it happens! I bet if he ploughed into Rosberg you wouldn't create a thread about him !

I am afraid I would. You don't try and overtake around the outside on a wet part of the track unless you are a moron. Horner's suggestion that JB's braking point was a contributing factor is banal in the extreme. There are few who brake later in any conditions.

[gmt898 0]

I'm no great fan of his petulant puss when things don't go his way, but he is good - very good. It doesn't help that his team management doesn't offer more objectivity and adult supervision. Case in point - Turkey was Webber's fault ? - give us all a break ! He's young and has to make these mistakes to learn. If he has the brain I think he has, and if Red Bull management responds to him in a more responsible way, he'll be world champion sometime not too far down the track.

[JHS 1]

There's always one driver isn't there?

Earlier this year after Melbourne people were saying Webber was the danger and should be banned, etc, etc. How things changed.

As I view it, it IS sour grapes. Sure, your favourite driver got taken out, but suck it up and move on. I haven't seen any Alonso fans bemoaning Barrichello yet. These things happen. They aren't playing tiddlywinks here, it's racing, and accidents happen.

Even the best make mistakes. Lewis, Fernando, Michael, whoever you choose to support (or not). Just give these guys a break. They are only human at the end of the day.

[Jean Todt 4]

Sebastian lost control while on a wet part of the track, it happens! I bet if he ploughed into Rosberg you wouldn't create a thread about him !

Yep....best post yet....could have happened to anyone...

[yurp 0]

I'm no great fan of his petulant puss when things don't go his way, but he is good - very good. It doesn't help that his team management doesn't offer more objectivity and adult supervision. Case in point - Turkey was Webber's fault ? - give us all a break ! He's young and has to make these mistakes to learn. If he has the brain I think he has, and if Red Bull management responds to him in a more responsible way, he'll be world champion sometime not too far down the track.

good post.

all he needs is to learn to stay calm when things don't go his way. other than that, he's a great driver.

it will come. hamilton's matured greatly in the course of one year, vettel will too.

also - i think he needs to stop expecting to be WDC one day. that makes him impatient and easily frustrated leading to the petulant reactions to things that compromise his race.