Ferrari Keeps _Smiling_

[Quiet One 15]

It's all over the net now. FIA fell victim of an ill conceived rule whose sole purpose, I guess was to be used against whoever Max Mosley didn't like as it was never actually enforceable.

So, it had to come to a rather tasteless display as it was at the race, and Jean Todt (nonetheless) at the wheel to finally review that stupid rule.

Now it's up to FIA again to either come back with a better way of avoiding these situations from arising again, or simply let it happen, and from audience to get used to them

[subiedude 0]

Regardless of the results of this investigation/hearing, I continue to feel ever more foolish for even watching F1 with another onslaught of totally stupid rules coming to down grade the so-called epitomy of motorsports. I do long for the days of the original CAN-AM series, no limits road racing, now that was exciting and entertaining...with no politics, but it did have the German Panzer that laid waste to the competition by technological advantage and eventually killed it. But I remember watching the 917-30 which was amazingly quiet, fast and dominating....... just others could not keep up when they found that Porsche had a multi-turbo 16 cylinder (1800 hp) ready if needed. Maybe today now that we have so many supercars pushing the limits well beyond 200 mph, some new players could join the game without all the constantly changing rules. What would you rather watch?

[teddydub 0]

The question I ask is : what does the WDC become? No point in that anymore...

It will now only be a manufacturer championship?

Perhaps this should be a new thread...

[yurp 0]

It's all over the net now. FIA fell victim of an ill conceived rule whose sole purpose, I guess was to be used against whoever Max Mosley didn't like as it was never actually enforceable.

So, it had to come to a rather tasteless display as it was at the race, and Jean Todt (nonetheless) at the wheel to finally review that stupid rule.

Now it's up to FIA again to either come back with a better way of avoiding these situations from arising again, or simply let it happen, and from audience to get used to them

I have mixed feelings about this.

Obviously Ferrari acted against the spirit of the rules (and racing), created a temporary farce of F1 (nothing new) and p**sed off a lot of other teams and fans. Morally they deserve a bigger punishment.

On the other hand, the fact that the FIA court seems to have taken the line that an unenforcable and badly written rule cannot be enforced and should be rewritten, is a step forward. In Max's day the rule didn't matter, just Max's relationship with that particular team or driver. The rules were a widely strung but fragile web in which he could catch victims of his choice. The court then provided the semi-respectable cover for him to carry through his personal vendettas.

A real court (even an FIA one) should act in accordance with the rules (whatever they say) and make rulings based on evidence, not the rumblings in the tummy of some bitter old man. It might take a while to clear away the debris left by Max, but the way this case was carried through indicates that we might gradually see some positive changes in the way the FIA runs itself and a bit more parity in its treatment of teams.

In the meantime, I hope Button snatches the WDC from Alonso's grasp on the last lap of Abu Dhabi after Hamilton pulls over after hearing the radio message 'Button is faster than you.' Or that Massa looses the WDC by 1 point. Now that would be poetic justice if not FIA justice.

[Piotr 0]

I find it ironic since the rule was written SPECIFICALLY because of Ferrari's past conduct completely embarrassed F1. It was so bad that the sports commentators in the US, sporting snide grins reported on it throughout every network with a must-do comment "This could never happen in NASCAR." So now Ferrari broke the rule established because of them and it's somehow OK? Hmm... maybe I SHOULD start watching NASCAR instead?

[Senna's Ghost 0]

I have mixed feelings about this.

Obviously Ferrari acted against the spirit of the rules (and racing), created a temporary farce of F1 (nothing new) and p**sed off a lot of other teams and fans. Morally they deserve a bigger punishment.

On the other hand, the fact that the FIA court seems to have taken the line that an unenforcable and badly written rule cannot be enforced and should be rewritten, is a step forward. In Max's day the rule didn't matter, just Max's relationship with that particular team or driver. The rules were a widely strung but fragile web in which he could catch victims of his choice. The court then provided the semi-respectable cover for him to carry through his personal vendettas.

A real court (even an FIA one) should act in accordance with the rules (whatever they say) and make rulings based on evidence, not the rumblings in the tummy of some bitter old man. It might take a while to clear away the debris left by Max, but the way this case was carried through indicates that we might gradually see some positive changes in the way the FIA runs itself and a bit more parity in its treatment of teams.

100% correct, particularly the sentence in bold. Question: did Ferrari break the rules, as written, at the time. Answer: Yes. Punishment: $100,000 imposed by stewards of the German GP. Laughable when compared against other offences and punishments that we have seen in recent times.

Someone on the Ferrari pit wall during the race said to Rob Smedley "Tell your man to back down," knowingly against the rules of the sport. We must assume that it was Domenicali who gave the order. What they didn't bank on was that Smedley and Massa would go about executing the order in such a blatant fashion.

I don't blame Alonso; after all what is he supposed to do if he sees the Ferrari in front slow down coming out of a corner?

Is it/was it a bad rule in the first place: Yes, I've said so in a previous posting. Should Ferrari walk away with no further action to be taken? I don't think so. At the least I thought Ferrari would have a substantial fine imposed upon them. Another instance when Ferrari appears to recieve leniency from the sporting authorities.

Tchau

[Schumikonen 2]

How many rules are going to be modified this year because of a controversy involving Ferrari? some of them were modified and some other are on the way of being modified like Team orders, Safety car, Safety car finish, they are also involved in the bendable wings and soem others that becuase I am staritng my class in three minutes I won't bother to look for them, but seriuously, Ferrari needs at whole new set of rules just for them and FIArrari is not really helping, I thought that at least they would reverse the drivers positions but FIA didn't do anything.

[Jean Todt 4]

Move on...these things will keep happening over and over again...

I would love to say something very naughty, but I will wait till the end of season to make that comment...

[Schumikonen 2]

Move on...these things will keep happening over and over again...

I would love to say something very naughty, but I will wait till the end of season to make that comment...

I guess I will agree with that comment

[Jean Todt 4]

I guess I will agree with that comment

Oh yeah!

[Kopite Girl 0]

Fine the lot of them. They all do it. Ferrari just did it louder than others.

[Jean Todt 4]

Fine the lot of them. They all do it. Ferrari just did it louder than others.

ya

[dribbler 6]

Fifty two years of no one bitching about team orders. Why? No blame culture, no internet forums, no media fanaticism. Fast forward to 2002. A unique situation. A tasteless move to back Schumacher at a point in the championship when it was not necessary. Combine this tastelessness with a lack of overtaking in the sport in general and you have outcry. Despondency with F1. A rule is created and enforced because of a fear that this sort of activity would set a precedence. The spotlight intensifies and every movement of every team and every driver is over analysed to the highest degree. The racing takes a back seat.

The real sport continues under a blanket of misinformed and occasional spectators with a lack of understanding about how the sport works. The craving for racing continues and so does the disappointment. A hardcore group, however do not act irrationally. They sit back, look at the bigger picture with measured objectivity. They understand that if common sense is allowed to prevail then the rule is not necessary. Teams could act in the way that best suits them. They could instruct their employees to carry out instructions when requested. The hardcore see their duty to respect these decisions through a deeper understanding.

It's not the sport that's at fault. It's the stupid fans. It sickens me to the core.

[yurp 0]

Fifty two years of no one bitching about team orders. Why? No blame culture, no internet forums, no media fanaticism. Fast forward to 2002. A unique situation. A tasteless move to back Schumacher at a point in the championship when it was not necessary. Combine this tastelessness with a lack of overtaking in the sport in general and you have outcry. Despondency with F1. A rule is created and enforced because of a fear that this sort of activity would set a precedence. The spotlight intensifies and every movement of every team and every driver is over analysed to the highest degree. The racing takes a back seat.

The real sport continues under a blanket of misinformed and occasional spectators with a lack of understanding about how the sport works. The craving for racing continues and so does the disappointment. A hardcore group, however do not act irrationally. They sit back, look at the bigger picture with measured objectivity. They understand that if common sense is allowed to prevail then the rule is not necessary. Teams could act in the way that best suits them. They could instruct their employees to carry out instructions when requested. The hardcore see their duty to respect these decisions through a deeper understanding.

It's not the sport that's at fault. It's the stupid fans. It sickens me to the core.

Okay rants seem to be in vogue right now and I'm never one to buck a trend so...

[RANT]

The whole team orders thing has always been flawed (see my original post on the matter 4 weeks or so ago). Teams and drivers should be able to make up their own minds what they want to do and (for the drivers) if they want to follow team orders / want to sign contracts that say the must.

(But this rant is more general.)

Unfortunately, stupidity is not confined to F1 fans. It's everywhere and (it appears to me) it's spreading.

Stupid people will continue to moan loudly and fill forums like this one with the parrotted garbage they've heard from TV commentators / read on blogs because they lack the objectivity and ability think for themselves.

Every media source has an angle these days and no one's teaching the younger generation how to discern what that angle is.

It used to be that articles (magazine, newspaper, TV, radio) didn't see the light of day unless the quality was up to scratch and the approach was fairly balanced. It used to be that news outlets wouldn't risk liable actions (now many have the cover of repeating what some 13 year old said in their blog). Publication / airing costs were simply too high and controlled by editors who got their jobs based on their ability to discern credibility. (Okay there's always been sh#t, but the proportion was way lower - say 5% when I was growing up.)

These days any fool can start a blog and 95% of the information with which we are bombarded every day requires the intellectual vigor of a 12 year old and makes not even the faintest attempt at objectivity. What's more, people like Murdoch have learnt that no matter how flawed your stance, if you shout it loudly enough and long enough people will start to think there's some truth in what you say. The message no longer needs to be balanced, intelligent or researched to get air time in today's world and unfortunately people are (predominently) ignorant suckers.

We stumble from one vitiolic emotional outcry to the next. "Let's burn a bunch of Korans on the anniversary of 9/11" says some ****ing crazy, publicity-craving pastor in Florida and what happens? He makes every newspaper, causes global outrage and potentially much worse. A couple of decades ago he wouldn't have got a look in on the 6 o'clock news. Now it's a 24 hour, 'we must constantly have more "news", so any old sh#t makes the cut' world. And stupid people pay attention. Stupid people think that this pastor is representative of anyone other than himself and his 50 or so equally stupid followers. Stupid people think he either has a point or that 100% of Americans agree with him. Stupid people think it's worth giving a flying crap about what some nutjob in Florida says because he's given the sheen of a respectable news story on websites and subsequently in newspapers across the globe.

Too much news so the bar is inevitably lowered to the point where they print any old sh#t. That means important scientific discoveries or natural disasters rubbing shoulders with Posh Spice's new denim look for autumn.

Screw all the ignorant arseholes, they're ****ing it up for everyone.

[/RANT]

[dribbler 6]

Okay rants seem to be in vogue right now and I'm never one to buck a trend so...

[RANT]

The whole team orders thing has always been flawed (see my original post on the matter 4 weeks or so ago). Teams and drivers should be able to make up their own minds what they want to do and (for the drivers) if they want to follow team orders / want to sign contracts that say the must.

(But this rant is more general.)

Unfortunately, stupidity is not confined to F1 fans. It's everywhere and (it appears to me) it's spreading.

Stupid people will continue to moan loudly and fill forums like this one with the parrotted garbage they've heard from TV commentators / read on blogs because they lack the objectivity and ability think for themselves.

Every media source has an angle these days and no one's teaching the younger generation how to discern what that angle is.

It used to be that articles (magazine, newspaper, TV, radio) didn't see the light of day unless the quality was up to scratch and the approach was fairly balanced. It used to be that news outlets wouldn't risk liable actions (now many have the cover of repeating what some 13 year old said in their blog). Publication / airing costs were simply too high and controlled by editors who got their jobs based on their ability to discern credibility. (Okay there's always been sh#t, but the proportion was way lower - say 5% when I was growing up.)

These days any fool can start a blog and 95% of the information with which we are bombarded every day requires the intellectual vigor of a 12 year old and makes not even the faintest attempt at objectivity. What's more, people like Murdoch have learnt that no matter how flawed your stance, if you shout it loudly enough and long enough people will start to think there's some truth in what you say. The message no longer needs to be balanced, intelligent or researched to get air time in today's world and unfortunately people are (predominently) ignorant suckers.

We stumble from one vitiolic emotional outcry to the next. "Let's burn a bunch of Korans on the anniversary of 9/11" says some ****ing crazy, publicity-craving pastor in Florida and what happens? He makes every newspaper, causes global outrage and potentially much worse. A couple of decades ago he wouldn't have got a look in on the 6 o'clock news. Now it's a 24 hour, 'we must constantly have more "news", so any old sh#t makes the cut' world. And stupid people pay attention. Stupid people think that this pastor is representative of anyone other than himself and his 50 or so equally stupid followers. Stupid people think he either has a point or that 100% of Americans agree with him. Stupid people think it's worth giving a flying crap about what some nutjob in Florida says because he's given the sheen of a respectable news story on websites and subsequently in newspapers across the globe.

Too much news so the bar is inevitably lowered to the point where they print any old sh#t. That means important scientific discoveries or natural disasters rubbing shoulders with Posh Spice's new denim look for autumn.

Screw all the ignorant arseholes, they're ****ing it up for everyone.

[/RANT]

Grow t!ts and marry me.

[ipaneda 0]

How many rules are going to be modified this year because of a controversy involving Ferrari? some of them were modified and some other are on the way of being modified like Team orders, Safety car, Safety car finish, they are also involved in the bendable wings and soem others that becuase I am staritng my class in three minutes I won't bother to look for them, but seriuously, Ferrari needs at whole new set of rules just for them and FIArrari is not really helping, I thought that at least they would reverse the drivers positions but FIA didn't do anything.

I guess the answer to your question is not as many as for a controversy involving Hamilton. Wasn't it him who overtook the safety car? Wasn't it him who ran out of gas before reaching the pits? How many times has the FIA said this year that it is OK for Hamilton to break the rules, but that there will be sanctions for the next one that behaves like him...

[Delta 0]

Whilst you will get a contrast of opinions on both sides, this matter is not as open and shut as it seems.

On the one hand, you have the question, did Ferrari break the rules as they stand? The answer to that is an obvious yes, they did.

On the other, the question do other teams do it? of course, all the time.

To me, all that you can do is issue punishment when an offence is made obvious, and within the framework of the current rules Ferrari made their offence public and obvious, and therefore a punishment was obviously merited, however the question remains did they deserve further punishment? Well considering that other teams do it all the time, it can be hard to make a case that they did, and even if a heavier punishment had been imposed on them, it would never have ceased team orders, it would have just induced teams to be smarter about how they did it, as team orders are an integral part of the sport.

As a purist I would love to see the best driver always winning with flat out competition, however sometimes you just need to realise that teams will sometimes do something for the overall commercial and sporting good of the team. That cannot, and never will be changed, and therefore the ban on team orders simply needs to be removed, as it is absolutely unenforceable.

However, I do feel criticism of Ferrari is 100% merited in the terrible way that they handled the whole event. Using team orders is one thing, but their pathetic and stupidly obvious attempts to lie to the press, the fans, and the world at large where frankly beneath contempt, and just for that alone I however believe they do deserve extra punishment, as I find it frankly unacceptable for a team to try to deceive and disenfranchise the people who are a large part of the reason that they have any money to race with in the first place. The whole thing was an absolute PR disaster for Ferrari, and the whole paddock will be served well to learn from their mistakes.

However the whole situation was created by the flawed intent of the team orders rule, and the rule certainly needs to be removed.

[Medilloni 6]

Whilst........... etc

Welcome to TF1 Delta, though an excellent first postage, and being a JBite makes me question whether you've joined the right forum?

Only joshin, I'm a fan of his too.

Your points about team orders, and most other sensible people here that say the same are quite correct - "it's the way they (Ferrari) did it", "it's a rule that can't be enforced" etc etc...... although I disagree with all of it, but then I'm a dreamer.

A general reply to the number 1 status/team order issue:

As long as there are people (inside and outside the business) that shout about how impossible it is to stop, the longer we have the problem. To say it's always been there is no reason not to attempt to change it, drivers used to die through ridiculously weak safety , they changed that situation plenty, so I'm damn sure a little concerted effort can change the team orders thang. It would be very simple to make applying team orders very difficult and risky, it just takes a little bravery from the FIA.

F1 has been evolving into a completely different animal over the last 25 years (in terms of revenue generation), and my opinion is that the audience it's now aimed at (as opposed to us purists ) will be put off by blatant team orders, as the recent examples have indicated.

I know it's, 'part of the sport, it always has been', but that needs to change - imo rules such as this would soon put us within acceptable levels of fair competition:

1. Each car must be fuelled for maximum performance for the whole race (no turning fuel mixtures up or down)

2. A race steward will be allocated to monitor each drivers radio and technical information (engine maps, mechanical problems etc), and any suspect 'code speak' or other devious methods of making it easy to drop a car/driver performance reported and investigated immediately after the race - 5 stewards to vote on outcome, majority opinion rules, no recourse for appeal.

3. As soon as one driver has no mathematical chance of taking the title, the team can openly nominate to the FIA and other teams a driver of number one status (so that all those stoopid betting folk will know...) for the rest of the season. Any suspect behaviour by the second driver to be investigated and ruled on, as in 2. above.

...that's how I believe they can keep an acceptable degree of competition and legitimate, sensible team priority after a drivers chances are cooked in such a way that will be accepted as part of the sport to the fcukwit fans.

I did say I was a dreamer.....

[Delta 0]

I think the issue is that whilst they can stop team orders once the cars are physically on track, the problem is that they will never stop it from happening in the board room, and they will never stop the more subversive ways of engineering it, like putting the drivers into different engine modes, taking a little time extra with a pit stop ETC

Formula 1 is a big money business, and to me I feel that it doesn't matter who the personnel in the teams are, as long as you have big corporations placing demands on you, this kind of thing will always happen because the pressure will be placed upon the team to do the most to achieve titles. Whilst changing the corporate personality of F1 is a nice idea in practise, I feel it would never work in practise. It would be nice to see F1 return to what it once was, but we are living in a world wholly driven by corporate interest, it simply won't happen any more.

And I am a supporter of both McLaren drivers, just always had a particular fondness for JB :-)

[Medilloni 6]

I think the issue is that whilst they can stop team orders once the cars are physically on track, the problem is that they will never stop it from happening in the board room, and they will never stop the more subversive ways of engineering it, like putting the drivers into different engine modes, taking a little time extra with a pit stop ETC

Formula 1 is a big money business, and to me I feel that it doesn't matter who the personnel in the teams are, as long as you have big corporations placing demands on you, this kind of thing will always happen because the pressure will be placed upon the team to do the most to achieve titles. Whilst changing the corporate personality of F1 is a nice idea in practise, I feel it would never work in practise. It would be nice to see F1 return to what it once was, but we are living in a world wholly driven by corporate interest, it simply won't happen any more.

And I am a supporter of both McLaren drivers, just always had a particular fondness for JB :-)

I agree with you Delta, the board room decisions for drivers etc will always make it hard to police. And, 'cos I've watched the sport for so long, I'm used to it and expect it - though I do admire those teams that at least try to keep it a fair fight for as long as possible.

My beef is just the one about no-one attempting to do something about it in light of how the sport is now perceived, so whether it took examining drivers contracts, whistle blowing, driver penalties if they took part in it..... and much more, then I'm convinced it could be achieved over a period of years - a re-education process to the teams, a "fcuk with the rule, and one day we'll nail your arse, no matter when it is" process.

Oops, dreamin' again.

[Quiet One 15]

Welcome aboard, Delta. Please pay no mind to old Meds here. We all despise and hate him, though he hasn't noticed it yet

@John (at both John and Delta, actually): The main problem with team orders is...nobody knows what the problem is. Until we actually work out what really bothers us about team orders, no sensible solution can be found. Some examples:

1) I'm not against orders, I am against them being blatant: well, "blatantness" is very subjective. For me, Lewis overtaking Kovy last year, the whole "Button won't overtake me if I slow down, right?" and the save fuel thing at McLaren were "blatant". Ditto for last year's Spanish and German GP's and the unorthodox tactics used by Brawn to magically turn a couple of Barrichello's good results into Button's wins. Buttonites, Hamiltonites will disagree and Barrichelites will agree (although Barrichelites disappeared along with Trilobites in the Jurassic Era)

If the problem is not with team orders, but the fact that they are handled in a stupid fashion as they were handled by Ferrari (to be more precise, by Massa and his better half a.k.a. Rob Smedley) then it also won't be enforceable. You can't do a rule that says "blatant orders are forbidden" as you will surely end up tangled in endless claims that that twitching in Horner's nose was actually a "blatant" team order.

2) The problem is that they should only be allowed once there is a clear number one driver. I can already hear the outcries from people saying that teams are favouring X to make it the number one and THEN justifiy the team orders! Worse than that, proposals like "team orders should only be allowed in the last X races, or when the number one driver is clearly the only one with chances" will accomplish nothing. After all, what in that rule would stop teams from giving team orders at any other moment?

3) Ferrari orders were a break of fair play. Granted. So where McLaren's and Brawn's and RBR's nose change and...and...

We should differentiate "breach of fair play principles" from mere "bad taste at doing it". Breach of fair play principles could be punished if the rules are modified accordingly. That is, in essence, what we all want, I guess. Bad taste, on the other hand is, as Delta put it, a case of awful PR. Awful PR cannot be punished by the rules, but can be punished by the public and the sponsors.

4) Again, IMHO, no amount of rules can solve the inherent contradiction between the need of having fair race among drivers as required by the WDC and the need of team orders as required by the WCC best interest. Any solution trying to ignore this core contradiction will be just cosmetic to appease the masses and subject to change according to the masses/press sympathies or dislikes.

So unless team radios are banned altogether, only one car per team is allowed or people accepts that teams have two drivers and that brings some compromises on what they would like to see (I would love to see hot bikini models driving those cars, but unfortunately team interests seem to veer teams on hiring professional drivers instead of foxy ladies!) we will have to cope with things like this in the future

[Delta 0]

I agree with you Delta, the board room decisions for drivers etc will always make it hard to police. And, 'cos I've watched the sport for so long, I'm used to it and expect it - though I do admire those teams that at least try to keep it a fair fight for as long as possible.

My beef is just the one about no-one attempting to do something about it in light of how the sport is now perceived, so whether it took examining drivers contracts, whistle blowing, driver penalties if they took part in it..... and much more, then I'm convinced it could be achieved over a period of years - a re-education process to the teams, a "fcuk with the rule, and one day we'll nail your arse, no matter when it is" process.

Oops, dreamin' again.

I see your point, but then I guess whistleblowing is unlikely. It would take an extremely brave team member to blow the whistle, and run the risk of losing their livelihood, as once a guy did it once he'd never work for another team again.

I guess the other problem is where you draw the line between what is fair and what isn't, everyone's take on that will be slightly different, and I guess finding a solution that suits everyone would be very hard.

Welcome aboard, Delta. Please pay no mind to old Meds here. We all despise and hate him, though he hasn't noticed it yet

@John (at both John and Delta, actually): The main problem with team orders is...nobody knows what the problem is. Until we actually work out what really bothers us about team orders, no sensible solution can be found. Some examples:

1) I'm not against orders, I am against them being blatant: well, "blatantness" is very subjective. For me, Lewis overtaking Kovy last year, the whole "Button won't overtake me if I slow down, right?" and the save fuel thing at McLaren were "blatant". Ditto for last year's Spanish and German GP's and the unorthodox tactics used by Brawn to magically turn a couple of Barrichello's good results into Button's wins. Buttonites, Hamiltonites will disagree and Barrichelites will agree (although Barrichelites disappeared along with Trilobites in the Jurassic Era)

If the problem is not with team orders, but the fact that they are handled in a stupid fashion as they were handled by Ferrari (to be more precise, by Massa and his better half a.k.a. Rob Smedley) then it also won't be enforceable. You can't do a rule that says "blatant orders are forbidden" as you will surely end up tangled in endless claims that that twitching in Horner's nose was actually a "blatant" team order.

2) The problem is that they should only be allowed once there is a clear number one driver. I can already hear the outcries from people saying that teams are favouring X to make it the number one and THEN justifiy the team orders! Worse than that, proposals like "team orders should only be allowed in the last X races, or when the number one driver is clearly the only one with chances" will accomplish nothing. After all, what in that rule would stop teams from giving team orders at any other moment?

3) Ferrari orders were a break of fair play. Granted. So where McLaren's and Brawn's and RBR's nose change and...and...

We should differentiate "breach of fair play principles" from mere "bad taste at doing it". Breach of fair play principles could be punished if the rules are modified accordingly. That is, in essence, what we all want, I guess. Bad taste, on the other hand is, as Delta put it, a case of awful PR. Awful PR cannot be punished by the rules, but can be punished by the public and the sponsors.

4) Again, IMHO, no amount of rules can solve the inherent contradiction between the need of having fair race among drivers as required by the WDC and the need of team orders as required by the WCC best interest. Any solution trying to ignore this core contradiction will be just cosmetic to appease the masses and subject to change according to the masses/press sympathies or dislikes.

So unless team radios are banned altogether, only one car per team is allowed or people accepts that teams have two drivers and that brings some compromises on what they would like to see (I would love to see hot bikini models driving those cars, but unfortunately team interests seem to veer teams on hiring professional drivers instead of foxy ladies!) we will have to cope with things like this in the future

lol

I personally thought that whole thing at the Turkish GP was more of a case of team mismanagement than team orders, it was clear that the 2 race engineers where both feeding their drivers conflicting information, and in a situation like that it just needs the team principal to step in and say "enough is enough boys, lets just hold position and take the points".

As with the Red Bull situation... Don't think it was as cut and dried as the Ferrari situation, but again it wasn't handled that well. On the whole, I feel that RBR despite the claims of favouritism have actually done a great job of letting their drivers race, sometimes even to their detriment like at Turkey, and ultimately if that clash ends up costing them the titles fans will inevitably say "hah they should have told their drivers to back off". It's a really fine line, and for my money because people's opinions are so conflicted about it, and because it isn't easy to police or define, I feel the TO rule just needs to go

[Quiet One 15]

It's a really fine line, and for my money because people's opinions are so conflicted about it, and because it isn't easy to police or define, I feel the TO rule just needs to go

Exactly. And people will have to cope with ugly displays of teams-over-drivers'interest a la Ferrari. Frankly, I don't think it is the ideal solution (I found the whole Ferrari issue extremely tasteless, after all), but any other will mean changing my mentality to accept this or changing the interaction between WDC and WCC strategies.

[JHS 1]

However, I do feel criticism of Ferrari is 100% merited in the terrible way that they handled the whole event. Using team orders is one thing, but their pathetic and stupidly obvious attempts to lie to the press, the fans, and the world at large where frankly beneath contempt, and just for that alone I however believe they do deserve extra punishment, as I find it frankly unacceptable for a team to try to deceive and disenfranchise the people who are a large part of the reason that they have any money to race with in the first place. The whole thing was an absolute PR disaster for Ferrari, and the whole paddock will be served well to learn from their mistakes.

What I find annoying maybe most of all in this incident is some of the (what I feel as) silly criticism. People who go along the lines of "OMG WHY DID THE FIA DO NOTHING FIA IS Ferrari-International-Assistance HAHAHAH STUPID ITALIAN CHEATING BA*TARDS!!!!!!1111"

I by no means condone what Ferrari did. I'm a Ferrari supporter myself, and was sad as anyone to see how things turned out that way. But, what about these incidents that went unnoticed?

McLaren, Belgium '05. A slow in lap from Montoya allowed Raikkonen was was in title contention to take the lead of the race at the final round of stops.

Renault, China, '06. Fisichella let Alonso through to second place after Alonso's various problems through that race.

McLaren, Germany, '08. Hamilton exits pits and feeds in behind Kovalainen, who's told that Hamilton is faster than him and allows him through.

Red Bull, Turkey '10. They tell Vettel to turn his engine up and Webber to turn his down before they clashed.

Were these examples met with the same anger? No. It appears to me that some people view races through rose tinted spectacles. As soon as Ferrari does something, the forces of hell should be unleashed upon them.

The likes of Whitmarsh and Horner can vehemently deny that their teams employ team orders all they want whilst attacking Ferrari over what they did, but it just smacks of hypocrisy quite a lot.

In my view, if it hadn't been for the radio messages that were played out on TV, we'd probably be none the wiser. Sure, there'd be a lot of conspiracies, etc, etc, but the fans wouldn't know for sure. Ferrari could have played it off as a sudden engine issue for Massa at that point, and we wouldn't really have the ammunition to say otherwise.

Is it better if it's sneakier? I'm not sure. The fans are still being robbed of a result, but most times they wouldn't really know about it for certain. One of the most frequent complaints I've seen of how Ferrari handled the incident was that it was "too obvious". Surely then, the answers simple for the FIA. If fans don't mind things going on behind their back as long as it doesn't look to obvious, why doesn't FOM simply stop airing radio communications, or not show ones with team orders in? Surely that's an easy option than tampering with the rules.

[Delta 0]

In all of those examples you have given, I guess it could be said that whether it was really subjective, we can't prove that it was team orders, in the Ferrari case it was abundantly clear.

However what I am advocating is not that they where any worse than anyone else for actually doing it, but for the way they tried to cover their actions up to the press and fans, lying to the fans is unacceptable. I don't believe that Ferrari where given favourable treatment at all, the FIA have had a recent history of leniency towards cheating, look at how easily Renault got away with Crashgate, and McLaren with Liegate. What Ferrari did was no worse than what the other teams did, however the way they made a public hash of it and then tried to deceive everyone was, as I said beneath contempt. If you are caught with your pants down, you admit your mistake and pull them back up, you don't walk around with your c*** hanging out lying about it.