KoolMonkey

Blue Flags... Keep Them Or Get Rid Of Them?

106 posts in this topic

1) About passing: I've been watching the first races of the season again. China in particular is relevant. Plenty of overtaking. Actually, real, memorable overtakings? Just a few: the Schumi vs Hamilton battle and a few others. Everything else was just a car moving alongside another car and coming up front. Nothing exciting about those. I'd rather watch a single Schumi vs Hamilton at China, or both Schumi vs Alonso battles at Imola in 2006 and 2005 (which, btw, did not actually ended in overtakings) than watching the other overhyped passes that Hamilton pulled through (or Alonso, who also made a lot of overtakings at China).

Wanting 30 overtakings per car per race and doing dumb things (like removing blue flags, thus allowing a hypothetical Ferrari powered HRT, for example, to ruin everybody else's race) would be like removing goalkeepers in football so we can watch more goals. It's not about quantity but quality. Give me 2 hard earned passes, and lots of tension in a race and keep your bunch of artifically induced overtakings.

In one statement it appears you are contradicting yourself. So removing blue flags would be like removing goalkeepers, yet you want more honest to goodness hard earned passes. So just how does one get a hard earned pass, when marshals are waving blue flags up and down!?

Or let me put it this way, if you think passing in F1 is like shooting goals without a goalkeeper, then what is a pass worth under blue flags?

Blue flags only benefit a few. That's not the spectators or those watching on tv, but the first 10 or so drivers who are lapping others. They already have a superior car, that's faster and handles better. It's one thing to say to the slower teams to speed up, but I hope no one then is honestly thinking it's ok for the other team to make the slower teams even faster.

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In one statement it appears you are contradicting yourself. So removing blue flags would be like removing goalkeepers, yet you want more honest to goodness hard earned passes. So just how does one get a hard earned pass, when marshals are waving blue flags up and down!?

The way they have been earning it all this time since the blue flag rule was issued: passing cars fighting for position. Turning your question around: how much can you brag about passing a car that has been so slow that he is a lap down your own now?

Or let me put it this way, if you think passing in F1 is like shooting goals without a goalkeeper, then what is a pass worth under blue flags?

It's worth nothing. If the blue flags were removed it would still mean nothing, as those cars would not be actually fighting for anything, but merely obstaculizing the guys that are one lap ahead of them. As such, the first minute you see a car motorized by manufacturer X battling against a car with a Y motor engine, everybody will yell that the X motorized car is trying to help team X. Has happened in the past, mind you (Norberto Fontana, Argentinian, and suspected of such behavior). Not to mention "bribing" drivers in hopeless teams with promises of testing roles or even driving seats at bigger teams. A backmarker has nothing to lose and very little to gain in a fight against the top of the field. They might as well cause chaos, let one car by and delay the next one, in any case it will rarely be a case of a true, honest battle. At best, it will be just some bells and whistles for the uneducated fan. At worst, another instrument for manipulating results...and that's when they are able enough or their cars are driveable enough to make any kind of choice.

Blue flags only benefit a few. That's not the spectators or those watching on tv, but the first 10 or so drivers who are lapping others. They already have a superior car, that's faster and handles better. It's one thing to say to the slower teams to speed up, but I hope no one then is honestly thinking it's ok for the other team to make the slower teams even faster.

Yes, it's a hard life for those at the bottom, and many times the criticism against the lower teams is completely unfair (for teams that have no budget, no testing times and have to compete with the big ones). New teams deserve patience to develop and support to let them close the gap. But I don't see that blue flags are the answer to that. Eliminating blue flags would not make their car faster. With blue flags in place, Force India gained everybody's respect. STR is showing some promise, as well. Lotus has certainly improved this year. Virgin and HRT had started as crap, and it was downhill from there. Nothing about perception would have changed much if they were allowed to race against the cars lapping them.

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Wanting 30 overtakings per car per race and doing dumb things (like removing blue flags, thus allowing a hypothetical Ferrari powered HRT, for example, to ruin everybody else's race) would be like removing goalkeepers in football so we can watch more goals. It's not about quantity but quality. Give me 2 hard earned passes, and lots of tension in a race and keep your bunch of artifically induced overtakings.

Not to mention "bribing" drivers in hopeless teams with promises of testing roles or even driving seats at bigger teams. A backmarker has nothing to lose and very little to gain in a fight against the top of the field. They might as well cause chaos, let one car by and delay the next one, in any case it will rarely be a case of a true, honest battle. At best, it will be just some bells and whistles for the uneducated fan. At worst, another instrument for manipulating results...and that's when they are able enough or their cars are driveable enough to make any kind of choice.

Rightly said :thbup:

Edited by blackpebel

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In one statement it appears you are contradicting yourself.

And i can say that you too are contradicting your own thoughts...

Exactly. Someone in a vastly superior car, that has a higher top speed and handles better should not have a problem in being able to pass a slower car.

By this you agree to realize that for faster cars its a piece of cake to overtake a lapped car...

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Plus you also say...

So just how does one get a hard earned pass, when marshals are waving blue flags up and down!?

(by what i get), you are disputing that overtaking a lapped car is a hard thing to do and, and blue flags spoil this 'hard' attempt.

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This is what i understand of a 'hard earned overtaking maneuver' ... One that is done to achieve a higher position then the one you are in (Not a one done to overtake a lap down car). Because as you said.. Someone in a vastly superior car, that has a higher top speed and handles better should not have a problem in being able to pass a slower car.

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Blue flags only benefit a few. That's not the spectators or those watching on tv, but the first 10 or so drivers who are lapping others.

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Personally, after having participated in a fair number of races on circuits, I more agree with what Maure had to say in these regards...

...Besides which, there is a lot and far more interesting sht to it than passing. For instance, when you have two drivers on top of each other, lap after lap, it doesn't matter if there is a pass or not. As I know it, you've got two drivers on the _limit_ curve after curve, driving their little hearts out. I value that mastery above passing anytime.

I think most people don't realize how _HARD_ those guys drive. The TV does no justice whatsoever to what goes on track. I recommend anyone lost in the legerdemain to simply get themselves a drive/ride in whatever form of motorsport racing. That will give them a feeling of what really goes on during a race. Road warriors don't know the first thing about it...

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The passing bit is lost on me, really. I don't see how you guys press on that point when F1 has become what has become. Besides which, there is a lot and far more interesting sht to it than passing. For instance, when you have two drivers on top of each other, lap after lap, it doesn't matter if there is a pass or not. As I know it, you've got two drivers on the _limit_ curve after curve, driving their little hearts out. I value that mastery above passing anytime.

Agreed; see Villeneuve v. Arnoux, Dijon '79.

The problem is, although I generally agree with what else you said (quoted below), very few drivers are willing (able?) to drive it that hard any longer (not to mention that carbon suspension components can't survive wheel-banging passes); it's all about the championship and protecting the points. Villeneuve and his "win or crash trying" attitude wouldn't make it through his first season nowadays; he'd be shuffled off in favor of a pay-driver that doesn't break expensive cars.

I think most people don't realize how _HARD_ those guys drive. The TV does no justice whatsoever to what goes on track. I recommend anyone lost in the legerdemain to simply get themselves a drive/ride in whatever form of motorsport racing. That will give them a feeling of what really goes on during a race. Road warriors don't know the first thing about it...

Agreed that more fans and pundits should have some seat time (even in a kart) before mouthing off. That said, I don't believe the drivers *have* to drive the car at its limits these days, and as a mentioned above, it's not possible to battle as hard (with formula cars) as it was in the "good old days".

All together, I've seen too many instances of a slower driver getting to the front of the pack (through pit choices, usually) and then the faster guys behind him *demanding* a blue flag for a pass for position ... :blink::thbdn::angry:

Get rid of the silly blue flag and let (or make) the drivers drive.

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