maure

I Checked First, Alright?

205 posts in this topic

Vettel is to let Webber by to beat Alonso... so, apparently, says Vettel.

Having heard this, I quickly smiled and went in search of the hypocritical bigots that made a bloody lynching of Massa letting Alonso by. Surely, these hypocritical bigots would now too be screaming and crying heaven and hell for... well, whatever is that fuels their hatred.

Yet, where is Mosley telling us all what it means to him to "deserve" a championship?

Where are all the other hypocritical bigots?

I miss their n-tuple standards. It isn't as fun when their hypocrisy demands they remain silent... as those _two_ years when Kova was evidently and royally fvcked over at and by McLaren.

Pretty please, hypocritical bigots, chant your war cries. Make me laugh with your absolute truths and their arbitrary application.

There is a driver publicly announcing he is planning on _SUBVERTING_THE_CHAMPIONSHIP_!!! Hypocritical bigots, run your mouths!!! Denounce!!! Denounce!!! Denounce!!! Run polls decrying the situation!!! Demand penalizations by FIA!!! You've done all this before, many times over. Come on, hypocritical bigots, dance your dance!!!

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I'm sure the hypocritical bigots would argue that it's different at the end of the season, when the outcome of a team order is a certainty, and therefore it can be justified as we (and more importantly the team) know the ultimate consequences of it. There are 3 types of team favouritism situations, they are: 1. Team favours one driver from the beginning of the season, designates a second driver (arguably Barrichello/Schumacher), 2. Team allows drivers to race at the beginning of the season, then chooses a driver to back (Alonso/Massa 2010), 3. Team does not use any obvious team orders, lets their drivers race, only uses team orders when absolutely required (Raikkonen/Massa 2007). Nobody likes to perceive that no.1 is happening, people are usually divided on the use of the second option, and almost everybody accepts that no.3 is perfectly logical, and fair.

Also, another difference is that Vettel (if we are to believe him and Horner) is going to make a decision to help Webber of his own volition, it will not come from the team. A luxury Massa never had. So again, completely different from Massa/Alonso/Ferrari.

People want to see a fair competition (without any interference from the team) amongst drivers in the same team until one is ruled out of the championship, then they don't mind a little tinkering, generally ;)

Note: Of course, I'm not arguing for or against team orders, or stating that Ferrari is any more guilty of no.2 than other teams (we don't know, they hid it better, probably). Nor am I suggesting those teams who are inclined towards no.3 are any fairer than those who use no.2, as I think they will generally use whichever option gives the driver they 'like' most the best chance of winning/staying in contention, e.g. if Vettel/Webber were in each other's points positions entering Brazil then perhaps Red Bull's policy might have been different in terms of interfering. I'm just pointing out that it is completely reasonable that people's reactions will differ in this (Vettel/Webber) situation in comparison to Ferrari's Alonso/Massa situation, as most people will rightly or wrongly perceive them to be very different situations.

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Vettel is to let Webber by to beat Alonso... so, apparently, says Vettel.

There is a driver publicly announcing he is planning on _SUBVERTING_THE_CHAMPIONSHIP_!!! Hypocritical bigots, run your mouths!!! Denounce!!! Denounce!!! Denounce!!! Run polls decrying the situation!!! Demand penalizations by FIA!!! You've done all this before, many times over. Come on, hypocritical bigots, dance your dance!!!

I couldn't agree with you more.

After the German GP, Eddie Jordan went nuts saying that Ferrari breached the rules and the results should be take from them. Then just last week, Jordan says to Horner: "If the situation arises, YOU MUST have Vettel move over" - WTF!!!

All this talk of "we don't have team orders, we will let the drivers make the decision" is utter rubbish. It's all decided in the back rooms.

More rubbish by Button: "There would be a cloud over Alonso's WDC if he wins by less than 7 points." Just like there would be a cloud over Webber's WDC if he wins by 2 points because Vettel let him pass (and all other WDC champions who had a little help).

IMO, if Alonso wins by less than 7 points, it justifies the whole idea of team orders. Had Ferrari not acted in Germany, they would have regretted it and then everyone would be talking about "what-ifs." Ferrari were smart to do what they did - they knew Massa (who needed Schumacher to teach him to drive) wouldn't be a match for Alonso - so they did what they needed to do to get the job done.

Horner was the most outspoken of the team bosses. Now he is repeating exactly what Domenicali said: "The team comes first"

YES - the team comes first! And this my friends, has always been fundamental to F1!

Edited by Fwon

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Generally yep.

I wrote after Hockenheim that team orders are inevitable and that there's no point trying to stop them. They might not fit our idea of 'sportsmanship' (depending on how you define it), but hey, that's F1.

I also wrote that Vettel should have been told to move over on Sunday. Imposing team orders would have put Webber in a better position as Alonso was running 3rd.

I find team orders somewhat distasteful and it can cheapen a victory and possibly the WDC. But at the same time, if the option is open to a team, then why shouldn't they use it. If Alonso or Webber wins the WDC through the use of team orders, then they will have been proved correct to do so.

Saying that...

I can understand those who complain about team orders. It's always nicer to see races without team orders cheapening the result. It's fair enough to say that drivers benefitting from team orders perhaps deserve their victories less - they don't really deserve the victory at all.

I think a few 'hypocritical bigots' might also say this...

Had Ferrari not gifted Alonso the extra 7 points, then Webber would be 1pt behind Alonso now and Red Bull wouldn't be talking about using team orders themselves.

Anyway - like I say, they should simply allow team orders and let all the teams and drivers do exactly what they want to.

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...

Your note is well argued in its twistedness. It made me smile.

In practical terms, and as you know, there is no way to tell the difference between the three options. For instance, the examples you provide don't pass the acid test of opinion.

Funny thing, I must add, any argument starting with "People want to see a fair competition..." is bound for DNF. We're talking F1 here...

I couldn't agree with you more.

I just don't get tired of hearing this around the forums.

After the German GP, Eddie Jordan went nuts saying that Ferrari breached the rules and the results should be take from them. Then just last week, Jordan says to Horner: "If the situation arises, YOU MUST have Vettel move over" - WTF!!!

Indeed, my friend, indeed.

We smile together.

IMO, if Alonso wins by less than 7 points, it justifies the whole idea of team orders.

Brave soul, what you describe is precisely what every one of these goons wants for their "chosen" driver and no one else... which is, exactly, the point.

...

You are dictionary man, aren't you? I don't remember why I call you that... I recall, however, that you explained yourself terribly. Well, you can do it now. Congrats on that account.

I think a few 'hypocritical bigots' might also say this...

Had Ferrari not gifted Alonso the extra 7 points, then Webber would be 1pt behind Alonso now and Red Bull wouldn't be talking about using team orders themselves.

Hey, that's some decent Walt-Disney-like infantile self-justification you worked out on someone else's behalf.

Funny thing.

Anyway - like I say, they should simply allow team orders and let all the teams and drivers do exactly what they want to.

There is that.

However, I fear it does not matter either way for the goons.

If it is not a diffuser, it is an F-duct, if it is not lack of passing, it is unlikeable passing, if it is something I don't have, it is something immoral for you to have, if it is something I have, it is something I make sure it is illegal for you to have,...

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"Sabastian, Webber is faster than you, can you confirm you understood the question?"

Edited by jackgarrett

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my post is empty

Edited by jackgarrett

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"Sabastian, Webber is sexier than you, can you confirm you understood the question?"

Oh yes I can.

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I hope it doesn't come to this, as a fan of Sebastian. I've seen people really laying into Red Bul for not switching at Interlagos, but surely having two bullets in the gun is better than just having one, in case the first bullet misses the target? Who knows what will happen in Abu Dhabi? Mark and Fernando might come together, one of them might have mechanical issues or whatever. I hope he doesn't do it too early in the race if he does switch, but equally I hope it is not on the very last lap either. Best bet, just stay in front Sebastian and avoid all the bad headlines F1 will doubtlessly get on Monday morning.

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I hope it doesn't come to this, as a fan of Sebastian. I've seen people really laying into Red Bul for not switching at Interlagos, but surely having two bullets in the gun is better than just having one, in case the first bullet misses the target?

True, but surer yet to have let Webber have it already.

It doesn't matter anyway.

RBR will do what every other team will do despite their protestations to the contrary. Vettel will let Webbel go by unless Alonso beats Webbel or simply finishes behind Webbel.

The odds favor Webber on account of Vettel's until-yesterday-immoral-team-orders-yet-briliant-thinking-from-now-on-with-blessings-from-previous-team-order-inquisitors but Alonso is the best on the field nowadays and is quite capable of upsetting the script. We might just get to see an Alonso with nothing to lose and, tatoo it in your forehead, Alonso is unlike the rest of the lot. He can literally pull racing bunnies out of a hat.

Btw, see Whiting withdraw getting smaller and smaller by the minute. It appears the time to give arbitrary reprimands has passed. The driver that matters (to him) is out of the game. Cranes selectively placed on the actual track, anyone? Sound doable, feasible, and FIA can sell it. Watch out Vettel, Webber, and Alonso, you might have antagonistic mechano-company on track! Just claim to be Hamilton and expect the software running the cranes to be have passed the "Mosley spank test".

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I hope it doesn't come to this, as a fan of Sebastian. I've seen people really laying into Red Bul for not switching at Interlagos, but surely having two bullets in the gun is better than just having one, in case the first bullet misses the target? Who knows what will happen in Abu Dhabi? Mark and Fernando might come together, one of them might have mechanical issues or whatever. I hope he doesn't do it too early in the race if he does switch, but equally I hope it is not on the very last lap either. Best bet, just stay in front Sebastian and avoid all the bad headlines F1 will doubtlessly get on Monday morning.

I explained this already in the other thread...

It is not better to have 2 red bulls in with a chance because in all likelihood they both have to finish ahead of Alonso now.

The easiest way Webber can win now is by winning the race himself and having Vettel 2nd and Alonso 3rd or worse.

Had they switched in Brazil, Vettel wouldn't have mattered, Webber only had to beat Alonso. Now Webber needs Vettel to beat Alonso too (unless a McLaren can get into the mix).

It's actually harder for a red bull to win now than it could have been.

Had Alonso been in 5th of lower, I think Red Bull could have followed your 2 bullets argument, but now they're going to have to shoot both bullets dead on target rather than just one.

If Webber breaks down Alonso easily beats Vettel.

If Vettel breaks down Alonso (fairly) easily beats Webber.

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I explained this already in the other thread...

It is not better to have 2 red bulls in with a chance because in all likelihood they both have to finish ahead of Alonso now.

The easiest way Webber can win now is by winning the race himself and having Vettel 2nd and Alonso 3rd or worse.

Had they switched in Brazil, Vettel wouldn't have mattered, Webber only had to beat Alonso. Now Webber needs Vettel to beat Alonso too (unless a McLaren can get into the mix).

It's actually harder for a red bull to win now than it could have been.

Had Alonso been in 5th of lower, I think Red Bull could have followed your 2 bullets argument, but now they're going to have to shoot both bullets dead on target rather than just one.

If Webber breaks down Alonso easily beats Vettel.

If Vettel breaks down Alonso (fairly) easily beats Webber.

I disagree.

What happens if Webber DNFs? What happens if Alonso has a bad race or a problem too?

All of a sudden, putting Vettel out of the hunt at Brazil would come back to hurt them. Vettel might be leading, with the above scenario, but he can't win it because of what they could have done at Brazil. Red Bull would snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

2 chances of winning the championship is better than 1. It's just a fact.

Edited by JHS

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I disagree.

What happens if Webber DNFs? What happens if Alonso has a bad race or a problem too?

All of a sudden, putting Vettel out of the hunt at Brazil would come back to hurt them. Vettel might be leading, with the above scenario, but he can't win it because of what they could have done at Brazil. Red Bull would snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Wrong again I'm afraid - Vettel 2nd in Brazil would have made little difference to his chances if either of the above scenarios happens - let me explain...

If Alonso's race is compromised Webber could more easily take the WDC had he been given 1st in Brazil.

If Webber's race is compromised Vettel is still 15pts behnd Alonso even though he was given first in Brazil - he still won't make that up unless Alonso suffers too.

Finally if both Webber and Alonso have a terrible time in Abu Dhabi (v. unlikely) then Vettel's in with a shot, but he would have been in with a shot with 7 less points anyway - so again why not change the order in Brazil.

In all three scenarios Red Bull would have been better off handing 1st to Webber in Brazil. Simples.

EDIT

2 chances of winning the championship is better than 1. It's just a fact.

Not when the single chance of winning is a 50% chance while the two chances of winning are 20% and 10%. Think about it.

Edited by snorrisstrags

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Finally if both Webber and Alonso have a terrible time in Abu Dhabi (v. unlikely) then Vettel's in with a shot, but he would have been in with a shot with 7 less points anyway - so again why not change the order in Brazil.

Because both drivers have a mathematical chance. I fear that Vettel wouldn't feel the same way if Red Bull asked him to move over in Brazil, he's a smart kid. Switching them would have only caused more unnecessarily strained relations for a team who aren't exactly best friends at the moment. Vettel deserved that win, Webber didn't. Simples.

And besides, other than the Australian fan base maybe, do you think the fans would really have wanted to see that happen? I personally wouldn't have. If Webber wanted to win that race, he should have gone out and....well, won it!

Mateschitz in my view has got it right. That's really refreshing to hear, somebody involved in F1 who actually cares about what the fans think. He's not obsessed with winning championships. I guess the Mark Webber cynical fan base will once again go "OMG FURTHER PROOF RED BULL SUPPORT VETTEL OVER WEBBER CUZ THEY AREN'T GOING TO ASK HIM TO MOVE OVER!!!!!!11111"

I'm not going to go as far to say that Webber would be an undeserving champion, there's no such thing, but as I've said previously, I'd prefer any of the other two (Hamilton's chances are pretty bleak, so he's not in it, sorry.) to win it.

Edited by JHS

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Because both drivers have a mathematical chance. I fear that Vettel wouldn't feel the same way if Red Bull asked him to move over in Brazil, he's a smart kid. Switching them would have only caused more unnecessarily strained relations for a team who aren't exactly best friends at the moment. Vettel deserved that win, Webber didn't. Simples.

And besides, other than the Australian fan base maybe, do you think the fans would really have wanted to see that happen? I personally wouldn't have. If Webber wanted to win that race, he should have gone out and....well, won it!

Mateschitz in my view has got it right. That's really refreshing to hear, somebody involved in F1 who actually cares about what the fans think. He's not obsessed with winning championships. I guess the Mark Webber cynical fan abse will once again go "OMG FURTHER PROOF RED BULL SUPPORT VETTEL OVER WEBBER CUZ THEY AREN'T GOING TO ASK HIM TO MOVE OVER!!!!!!11111"

I'm not going to go as far to say that Webber would be an undeserving champion, there's no such thing, but as I've said previously, I'd prefer any of the other two (Hamilton's chances are pretty bleak, so he's not in it, sorry.) to win it.

From this (and other) posts I can see that you have an emotional attachment to the topic. Not being a supporter of any driver, I approach this purely from a statistical point of view.

While I agree that team orders are always a dissappointing way to end a race and somewhat cheapen the championship and F1 as a whole, I am simply pointing out that Red Bull would have had more chance of winning the WDC had they switched the cars in Brazil. That is all. To assume the opposite is statistically incorrect.

I'll give you this though -

If Red Bull do win the WDC without using team orders, they should be very proud of themselves - it would be a pleasure to see.

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For a second there, dictionary man, I thought you were going to go left field with a "I see dead people"...

Btw, you are both right.

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I am a Webber fan and have supported the idea of team rules, however depite how much it pains me to say, Vettal still has a good shot of taking the title.

I dont think Webber has done himself any real favour with recent comments. If it is left to Vettel to make the choice if required, will he actually let Webber through. I am sure his growing dislike for Webber and his ego in that he would hate to be number 2 in the team, may cause his to be irrational (as we have seen on the track) and make the decision not to let Webber through.

I would hate to be in the Red Bull garage if they dont win the WDC.

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Because both drivers have a mathematical chance. I fear that Vettel wouldn't feel the same way if Red Bull asked him to move over in Brazil, he's a smart kid. Switching them would have only caused more unnecessarily strained relations for a team who aren't exactly best friends at the moment. Vettel deserved that win, Webber didn't. Simples.

And besides, other than the Australian fan base maybe, do you think the fans would really have wanted to see that happen? I personally wouldn't have. If Webber wanted to win that race, he should have gone out and....well, won it!

Mateschitz in my view has got it right. That's really refreshing to hear, somebody involved in F1 who actually cares about what the fans think. He's not obsessed with winning championships. I guess the Mark Webber cynical fan abse will once again go "OMG FURTHER PROOF RED BULL SUPPORT VETTEL OVER WEBBER CUZ THEY AREN'T GOING TO ASK HIM TO MOVE OVER!!!!!!11111"

I'm not going to go as far to say that Webber would be an undeserving champion, there's no such thing, but as I've said previously, I'd prefer any of the other two (Hamilton's chances are pretty bleak, so he's not in it, sorry.) to win it.

I have to agree with you. I mean, can't Mark Webber win the championship by himself??? Why does he need teammates to help him like that underserving donkey driver. There's already talk that Vettel will be in the lead in A.D. and he must move over... For god sake Mark Webber do it by your flippin self and earn some respect!

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I am a Webber fan and have supported the idea of team rules, however depite how much it pains me to say, Vettal still has a good shot of taking the title.

I dont think Webber has done himself any real favour with recent comments. If it is left to Vettel to make the choice if required, will he actually let Webber through. I am sure his growing dislike for Webber and his ego in that he would hate to be number 2 in the team, may cause his to be irrational (as we have seen on the track) and make the decision not to let Webber through.

I do think he will let Webber thru, if he is in the lead, despite what Mateschitz says...

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I am a Webber fan and have supported the idea of team rules, however depite how much it pains me to say, Vettal still has a good shot of taking the title.

I dont think Webber has done himself any real favour with recent comments. If it is left to Vettel to make the choice if required, will he actually let Webber through. I am sure his growing dislike for Webber and his ego in that he would hate to be number 2 in the team, may cause his to be irrational (as we have seen on the track) and make the decision not to let Webber through.

I would hate to be in the Red Bull garage if they dont win the WDC.

I too go for Webber. However, I don't think he's made his situation worse. After all, once you're forced to be 2nd driver, it doesn't matter what you say or don't.

The RBR garage would be fine if Webber doesn't win but disappointed if Vettel doesn't. Since Vettel doesn't have much of a chance, RBR doesn't care much. It's what Vettel requires of RBR and RBR mistakenly does what Vettel wants.

The error has been and remains RBR. They are screwing their chances this season while pssing off Webber and spoiling rot Vettel. Sure, Vettel has not yet been compromised like Hamilton has but it is only a question of time at this point. Once they manage it, they'll have another Hamilton, that is, a driver with nothing to lose because he's entitled to it all; A driver that btches against the team and betrays it to cover his arse since the team itself puts its favorite's whims ahead of its own priorities as a team.

And it gets far worse for RBR. Mateschitz claims that "if you don't win this season, you'll win next". Boy isn't he drunk on something funny. In F1, you can be in sixth place come the start of the next season. His certainty is not only naive but ignorant of F1 history, irresponsible to his two teams, and feeble-minded to boot... it was only last season that he had the best car and FIA stole the championship from under him.

EDIT: typos

Edited by maure

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And besides, other than the Australian fan base maybe, do you think the fans would really have wanted to see that happen? I personally wouldn't have. If Webber wanted to win that race, he should have gone out and....well, won it!

Mateschitz in my view has got it right. That's really refreshing to hear, somebody involved in F1 who actually cares about what the fans think. He's not obsessed with winning championships. I guess the Mark Webber cynical fan abse will once again go "OMG FURTHER PROOF RED BULL SUPPORT VETTEL OVER WEBBER CUZ THEY AREN'T GOING TO ASK HIM TO MOVE OVER!!!!!!11111"

Actually, being a Mark Webber fan and loitering around Webber forums, the general feel is that we don't want things handed over to him. I (we) believe in fair play. As long as RBR don't screw Mark over (blaming him for a crash that was clearly Vettel's fault or ripping off his nose cone to give to golden boy) then it's "the best man wins" as far as we are concerned. We are disappointed that in the last third of the season, Webber just keeps getting pipped by Vettel, usually less then a tenth in Q3. We like to see Mark kick a$$ - but it hasn't been the case. His reflexes just aren't the same anymore. But Mark deserves credit for being able to keep Vettel honest. Vettel was suppose to trounce Webber this year, but some stunning drives from Webber have left golden boy feeling a tad discombobulated. Just look at the pairings: Alonso/Massa, Hamilton/Kova, Alonso/Fiscichella, etc. Mark has earned his stripes and deserves respect!

As for DM, yes he has a strong moral stand point on team orders, but seriously, I wonder if it is just a media ploy. I mean, it makes DM look good and perhaps provides a red herring to the team orders that WILL BE PUT IN PLACE if the need arises. No one in their right mind would want to see the WDC go to another team, let alone if it came down to principles. Especially after Ferrari have been geeing up Horner and gang ("we would have wrapped up the WDC by now").

Horner, Marko and even Seb have said they know what is the right thing to do for the team. They may not love Mark all that much, but they sure as hell love Alonso and Ferrari even less.

Stating Horner: "The Team comes first" - now where have I heard that?

Horner in the back room to Sebastian:

H: "Sebastian, you know what to do."

S: "Yeah, I know what to do."

Technically, no team orders have been given. But we all know what will happen IF the need arises.

But there won't be a need because Alonso will win in Abu Dhabi and will take the WDC. The End. :king::naughty:

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Btw, you are both right.

Agreed (almost). James speaks the truth in every way apart from here...

2 chances of winning the championship is better than 1. It's just a fact.

That is incorrect. The 2 chances added together still have less probability of occuring than the 1 chance they could have had with Webber winning Brazil.

There has been a mistaken inflation of statistical improbabilities in the Red Bull garage which has adversly affected the actual probability of them taking the WDC.

Never mind - anything could happen.

Edited by snorrisstrags

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And although redbull has 2chances of winning the championship(which sounds better) then 1, their is only one driver who can claim it.

With Ferrari, they have been clear with this fact, and redbull have just being too selfish to not put their foot down in time.

Edited by blackpebel

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We are disappointed that in the last third of the season, Webber just keeps getting pipped by Vettel, usually less then a tenth in Q3. We like to see Mark kick a$$ - but it hasn't been the case. His reflexes just aren't the same anymore.

I think it's a mental problem. Mark use to be THE QUALIFYING king, what is wrong? Surely Vettel can't be THAT GOOD. Vettel has grown alot since that accident at Spa, there's a certain maturity in his driving from then onwards. I rate him the best driver of the current crop base on form...

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