maure

I Checked First, Alright?

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Are zombies dead people too?

If they are, then I should be seeing them. If they are undead, then I should be seeing them too.

Since there's a high probability that there is no such thing as zombies, but in matters of zombies there's as an _infinite_ number of possible zombie-related anecdotes, the likelihood of me seeing them must be inversely proportional to the amount of basic maths people on TF1 don't understand and directly correlated to the amount of utter bullshit they're willing to type in a futile (but extremely entertaining) attempt to disguise their willful ignorance.

Ergo - Long live team orders as long as zombies are the number 2 drivers.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a twatface.:mf_tongue:

The end.

EDIT - poo

Oh that's just bollocking typical. When I was in school and the maths teacher said we are going to calculate the infinite number of possible zombie related anecdotes to the inverse proportional number of non understanding maths people on TF1, I filed it under 'nerdy twatface only consumption' :dam:

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Vettel is to let Webber by to beat Alonso... so, apparently, says Vettel.

Having heard this, I quickly smiled and went in search of the hypocritical bigots that made a bloody lynching of Massa letting Alonso by. Surely, these hypocritical bigots would now too be screaming and crying heaven and hell for... well, whatever is that fuels their hatred.

Yet, where is Mosley telling us all what it means to him to "deserve" a championship?

Where are all the other hypocritical bigots?

I miss their n-tuple standards. It isn't as fun when their hypocrisy demands they remain silent... as those _two_ years when Kova was evidently and royally fvcked over at and by McLaren.

Pretty please, hypocritical bigots, chant your war cries. Make me laugh with your absolute truths and their arbitrary application.

There is a driver publicly announcing he is planning on _SUBVERTING_THE_CHAMPIONSHIP_!!! Hypocritical bigots, run your mouths!!! Denounce!!! Denounce!!! Denounce!!! Run polls decrying the situation!!! Demand penalizations by FIA!!! You've done all this before, many times over. Come on, hypocritical bigots, dance your dance!!!

Ferrari force Massa to let Alonso by

Vettel decides to let Webber by off his own back.

Is the difference somehow lost on you. Red Bull's record at not issuing team orders this season has actually been extremely commendable. However your point is well received, the rule on team orders is unworkable and needs to either be altered or removed altogether

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Should be down to the drivers to decide what happens on the track, as said by Newey!

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Ferrari force Massa to let Alonso by

Vettel decides to let Webber by off his own back.Is the difference somehow lost on you. Red Bull's record at not issuing team orders this season has actually been extremely commendable. However your point is well received, the rule on team orders is unworkable and needs to either be altered or removed altogether

Really? How can you tell?

Case#1: "I hope he would be magnanimous to help the other [Webber]" (Newey)

Case#2: "Felipe, Fernando is faster than you" (Smedley)

Case#3: "Driver X, I COMMAND you to let Driver Y by"

You need a leap of faith to believe that case#1 is the opposite of case#2

Even clearer. A platoon is about to kill a prisoner:

Case#1: "I hope you soldiers will be magnanimous and end this prisoner's life"

Case#2: "Soldiers, this prisoner is slower than your bullets, confirm you understood the message"

Case#3: "FIRE!"

Again, I only see a clearcut order in the last example. RBR is issuing team orders everyday to Vettel, although people has decided not to recognize them as such. Horner also said that RBR is not suicidal and come Abu Dhabi, the drivers will know what to do. Aren't those team orders as well? Do Vettel has more freedom to decide after Horner and Newey hinted very strongly that he should let Webber by?

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FURTHER ON TEAM ORDERS

As said before, the main problem is that there is no actual definition of what constitutes a team order. Newey asked Vettel to be magnanimous and let Mark pass. Is it a team order? (Remember that Felipe was just told that Alonso was faster, not demanded to move through). What if they say "Move over and let Mark through...please" Will it be a team order, considering that RBR only asked him nicely? These are idiotic examples, granted, but they show that the rule was always broken and it took Ferrari's lack of subtletly to trigger this crisis.

Basically, there is no wording that can rule something like Hockenheim from happening again. Not if we keep focusing on team orders, at least. Again, and despite all the hollier-than-thou talk from RBR (laughable) and McLaren *cough Stepney cough* we all know that the problem was that Hockenheim was blatant, not that the other guys are really "sportsmen".

Well, blatant is easier to avoid. What about erasing any mention of team orders altogether from the rules and replace them with requirements of relative pace to be maintained throughout the track? Those can be easily observed on the telemetry (it was what they used at Hockenheim to judge the case, after all). You cannot prove that Rob's phrase was a team order. You can prove that Felipe braked way below his pace before and after that without proper justification. Just request that any of these cases should be subject to proper justification or punished otherwise and at least the most blatant cases will have to disappear. This WON'T solve the usual other tactics for "number 2 drivers" (botched pitstops, imprmptu changes of strategies, etc.) There will always be number 2 drivers (and there has always been) if the teams want them to be like that. Sadly, but true.

Yeah I was going to write something like this when I read your previous post last night. The issue for most people (and the FIA) is how blatant the team orders are. You can surely get rid of blatant team orders by just "banning" team orders and gentlemen's agreements? In other words, anyone who deliberately gives away points to another driver would be penalised. Is this not how most sports operate? I can hardly imagine Roger and Rafa being allowed to deliberately alternate Grand Slam victories, just because they respect their mutual greatness.

This will hardly eliminate real team orders, like one guy being given a dodgy pitstop or being told to stay behind his teammate save fuel, but it would prevent the blatant swapping of positions that embarrasses the FIA.

And as I remember you hinting at in your previous post, the only way to stop (some) drivers being disadvantaged by their own team is to change the sport and get rid of the teams.

On a slight tangent, in fairness to Delta, I don't think his distinction is a totally impossible one to make. I mean, it is surely plausible that Vettel would now like to help the team win a WDC, whereas it is not believable that Felipe would want to help Nando in the middle of the season. So in my view Felipe can't have had a real choice, whereas Vettel might.

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Yeah I was going to write something like this when I read your previous post last night. The issue for most people (and the FIA) is how blatant the team orders are. You can surely get rid of blatant team orders by just "banning" team orders and gentlemen's agreements? In other words, anyone who deliberately gives away points to another driver would be penalised. Is this not how most sports operate? I can hardly imagine Roger and Rafa being allowed to deliberately alternate Grand Slam victories, just because they respect their mutual greatness.

This will hardly eliminate real team orders, like one guy being given a dodgy pitstop or being told to stay behind his teammate save fuel, but it would prevent the blatant swapping of positions that embarrasses the FIA.

And as I remember you hinting at in your previous post, the only way to stop (some) drivers being disadvantaged by their own team is to change the sport and get rid of the teams.

On a slight tangent, in fairness to Delta, I don't think his distinction is a totally impossible one to make. I mean, it is surely plausible that Vettel would now like to help the team win a WDC, whereas it is not believable that Felipe would want to help Nando in the middle of the season. So in my view Felipe can't have had a real choice, whereas Vettel might.

Bah, who cares what you think? You have always been an obtuse, irrational son of a...wait...so do you agree with me? My good friend Graham! Have I told you that that haircut makes you look much more handsome, if that's even possible? BTW, it is always good when such a brilliant, balanced mind as yours agrees with humble me. :worshippy:

Ahem! Anyways...back to Delta (I like the way that phrase sounds): I am not so sure such distinction is easy to make, unless you already have a biased view on the participants. Ferrari's move was actually blatant only because they were so idiotic as to choose Rob to tell Massa to move aside (something Coulthard pointed out at the moment). Had Domenicalli been on the radio, he would certainly never said something like "Sorry, kid" and Massa wouldnot have felt brave enough to do it so blatantly, and if he had been that brave, the team could still have denied everything saying that all they did was informing him of a fact (and actually, that's all they did!). We don't know exactly what pressure or threat made Massa give up then, we can't possibly know what would be considered an equal amount of pressure on Vettel. Do we know if this might end up with RBR management being fed up with BOTH drivers? Maybe he will be afraid to be considered "damaged goods" by other teams if now he doesn't yield? ("Seb? No way, the guy is not a team player") Or if he DOES yield? Same questions people made at the time about Alonso can now be posed about Seb. Not a nice place to be, his pants (not now, not ever, unless your name is Paul, I mean)

And a final comment: media manipulation. Pit Radio communication is now "uncensored" by the teams, yet we only get a tiny fraction. Who decides what goes on air and what doesn't? The infamous "this is ridiculous" phrase was aired and then the whole interchange at Ferrari. But the whole Hamilton/Button "Will Jenson pass me?" saga was not after the battle, although I bet that Hamilton must have made some equally colorful comments the moment he saw the guy he was assured won't fight him suddenly being all over him! :lol: Ditto with "not bad for a number 2 driver". Are those kind of comments only coming from Alonso/Lewis/Webber? By hearing only what TV allow us to hear from these drivers we build an image, and we translate their messages based on that. OUR bias isn't even OURS! That's the real farce. In any, case, I'd rather hear even Lewis saying "Am I supposed to watch for my tires or am I supposed to race these guys?" than just hearing the usual cries of "I have no grip!!!" uttered by 90% of the drivers at different moments and other similar boring stuff.

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I read your post really carefully and I think it's disgusting that you're all in favour of team orders and that you would like the WDC decided by them. However, the real issue is that you see dead people. Seriously??

I wanted to be disgusted by your disgust, honest, but cannot... hmmm, perhaps I could become disgusted by my inability to be disgusted by your disgust... wait, wait, no luck of disgust.

I find it all amusing.

Buddy, the WDC _is_ decided by team orders... bar Whiting and his own peculiar brand of manipulation.

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Ferrari force Massa to let Alonso by

Vettel decides to let Webber by off his own back.

Is the difference somehow lost on you. Red Bull's record at not issuing team orders this season has actually been extremely commendable. However your point is well received, the rule on team orders is unworkable and needs to either be altered or removed altogether

You are making it up.

Massa was told that Alonso was faster than him. Now _YOU_ want to make _YOURSELF_ believe that this means one thing and one thing only, namely, get out of the way. Yet that is _YOUR_ interpretation. It is also possible to interpret it as, "watch out Massa, Alonso is going by, don't throw him out of the track". Your fanatical hold on _YOUR_ view is what is lost on you. As for myself, I accept both interpretations and a million others. Don't care enough.

RBR has no record on "not issuing team orders" any more than any other team. You are lying to yourself. For example, now that the last race is coming up, everyone in RBR is trying to sell the rat as duck so that a manipulated result is accepted by the hypocrites...

And RBR attempts for this legerdemain is everything except "commendable". It is, simply, laughing at you loud and hard... and not a good natured laugh (like mine) but the laugh of someone that thinks you are stupid and will indeed buy rat for duck, fully knowing that it is rat yet still claiming that is duck as you gulp it down.

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Should be down to the drivers to decide what happens on the track, as said by Newey!

In what universe?

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Really? How can you tell?

Case#1: "I hope he would be magnanimous to help the other [Webber]" (Newey)

Case#2: "Felipe, Fernando is faster than you" (Smedley)

Case#3: "Driver X, I COMMAND you to let Driver Y by"

You need a leap of faith to believe that case#1 is the opposite of case#2

Even clearer. A platoon is about to kill a prisoner:

Case#1: "I hope you soldiers will be magnanimous and end this prisoner's life"

Case#2: "Soldiers, this prisoner is slower than your bullets, confirm you understood the message"

Case#3: "FIRE!"

Again, I only see a clearcut order in the last example. RBR is issuing team orders everyday to Vettel, although people has decided not to recognize them as such. Horner also said that RBR is not suicidal and come Abu Dhabi, the drivers will know what to do. Aren't those team orders as well? Do Vettel has more freedom to decide after Horner and Newey hinted very strongly that he should let Webber by?

That is one _more_ valid way of seeing it, indeed.

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On a slight tangent, in fairness to Delta, I don't think his distinction is a totally impossible one to make. I mean, it is surely plausible that Vettel would now like to help the team win a WDC, whereas it is not believable that Felipe would want to help Nando in the middle of the season. So in my view Felipe can't have had a real choice, whereas Vettel might.

The problem with the argument is _again_ Kova and Hamilton for two years.

If you don't denounce that, then you've got nothing.

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What if:

Final lap - Vettel, Mark, Alonso in that order. Vettel moves over for Mark. As soon as Vettel crosses over the line in 2nd place, Alonso's engine blows a few metres before the finish line. Uh-oh.

Edited by LabradoRacer

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What if:

Final lap - Vettel, Mark, Alonso in that order. Vettel moves over for Mark. As soon as Vettel crosses over the line in 2nd place, Alonso's engine blows a few metres before the finish line. Uh-oh.

....Vettel hangs in Ferrari garage...just after press conference.

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You all would fail as Dastardly wannabees. If I were a Ferrari strategist, this is what I would do: put as little fuel on Felipe's car as I could, never mind if he finishes the race or not, he is totally expendable. Let him blaze to P1 thanks to a ridiculously lighter car (I know he can't have so little fuel, but as little as allowed would probably be enough) then let him race at snail's pace until Alonso was able to dispose of the Red Bulls. Abu Dhabi is overtake unfriendly enough to allow for such tactic.

MWAHAHAHAHAHA.

Man, I should stop following Ferrari because of Alonso, their dirtyness is sticking on me. *sigh* I long for those simpler, innocent days with the good guys: Renault...Piquet Jr...Briatore...

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What if:

Final lap - Vettel, Mark, Alonso in that order. Vettel moves over for Mark. As soon as Vettel crosses over the line in 2nd place, Alonso's engine blows a few metres before the finish line. Uh-oh.

Any situation that has Vettel letting Webber by will put the hypocrites in an even (if at all possible) tighter spot.

That's amusing enough.

....Vettel hangs in Ferrari garage...just after press conference.

Working out the score? Vettel and Webber would be even on points and victories, right?

put as little fuel on Felipe's car as I could, never mind if he finishes the race or not, he is totally expendable. Let him blaze to P1 thanks to a ridiculously lighter car (I know he can't have so little fuel, but as little as allowed would probably be enough) then let him race at snail's pace until Alonso was able to dispose of the Red Bulls. Abu Dhabi is overtake unfriendly enough to allow for such tactic.

That's twisted... and, surely, the best idea so far.

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Speaking of light fuel loads, RBR could do the same thing having with Buemi, Alguersuari, both to get ahead of Alonso on the grid to then block him out.

Hold on, the hypocrites claim RBR are holy...

... but when have I heard that before? Oh yeah, Brawn was declared holy once... and before that, so were Hamilton "the best driver in F1 history" and Ron Dennis "the most honest man in F1". Ah, the hypocrites, their holiness, their absolute proofs,... amusing.

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Speaking of light fuel loads, RBR could do the same thing having with Buemi, Alguersuari, both to get ahead of Alonso on the grid to then block him out.

Hold on, the hypocrites claim RBR are holy...

... but when have I heard that before? Oh yeah, Brawn was declared holy once... and before that, so were Hamilton "the best driver in F1 history" and Ron Dennis "the most honest man in F1". Ah, the hypocrites, their holiness, their absolute proofs,... amusing.

Actually, the Toro Rosso's use Ferrari engines...Alguersuari is Spanish (as Spanish as a guy from Barcelona can be, at least)...oh the endless combinations for your average paranoid!

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Actually, the Toro Rosso's use Ferrari engines...Alguersuari is Spanish (as Spanish as a guy from Barcelona can be, at least)...oh the endless combinations for your average paranoid!

My Basque friend once mentioned Alguersuari is Basque, I seem to remember.

Hey, hold on the hatred, just how Spanish is Alonso, then? As Spanish as can be? Or as Spanish as Spanish are? Or as Spanish as what? What's all this talk about degrees of Spaniardness?

Crafty characters... demon lovers them all, I tell ya!!!

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If I were a Ferrari strategist, this is what I would do: put as little fuel on Felipe's car as I could, never mind if he finishes the race or not, he is totally expendable. Let him blaze to P1 thanks to a ridiculously lighter car (I know he can't have so little fuel, but as little as allowed would probably be enough) then let him race at snail's pace until Alonso was able to dispose of the Red Bulls. Abu Dhabi is overtake unfriendly enough to allow for such tactic.

MWAHAHAHAHAHA.

Man, I should stop following Ferrari because of Alonso, their dirtyness is sticking on me. *sigh* I long for those simpler, innocent days with the good guys: Renault...Piquet Jr...Briatore...

Well, if someone with balls and intelligence would be running that team (Todt/Brawn) that would be seriously considered as tactics. With idiot-it-charge we can only pray for straight forward race without any need for extraordinary decisions from the pitwall.

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You all would fail as Dastardly wannabees. If I were a Ferrari strategist, this is what I would do: put as little fuel on Felipe's car as I could, never mind if he finishes the race or not, he is totally expendable. Let him blaze to P1 thanks to a ridiculously lighter car (I know he can't have so little fuel, but as little as allowed would probably be enough) then let him race at snail's pace until Alonso was able to dispose of the Red Bulls. Abu Dhabi is overtake unfriendly enough to allow for such tactic.

MWAHAHAHAHAHA.

Man, I should stop following Ferrari because of Alonso, their dirtyness is sticking on me. *sigh* I long for those simpler, innocent days with the good guys: Renault...Piquet Jr...Briatore...

OR .... Instead of having low fuel load's(that will surely end his race before the race gets over), take some risk with the engine. They can gamble on burning some extra fuel and turning up those rev's for Massa for a single qualifying lap(enough to get ahead of Rdbulls), and the first 5 laps so that alonso can get into the lead while massa holds back redbulls ... and then save fuel till the end of the race to finish where ever he can..... maybe.

:P ....

Edited by blackpebel

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Ok, this is mildly unsettling:

Felipe Massa stopped out on the track the end of the second session when he ran out of fuel. He radioed this message to the team, which was broadcast to the other teams. It is interesting that he should have been running with low enough fuel levels to run out at that stage of practice.

(From James Allen's blog)

Stefano, do you usually lurk around TF1? :unsure:

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My Basque friend once mentioned Alguersuari is Basque, I seem to remember.

Hey, hold on the hatred, just how Spanish is Alonso, then? As Spanish as can be? Or as Spanish as Spanish are? Or as Spanish as what? What's all this talk about degrees of Spaniardness?

Crafty characters... demon lovers them all, I tell ya!!!

Yeah Alguersuari is a basque last name and his family is originally from the basque country, but I think he was

raise in Cataluna so he probably considers himself Catalonian.

Alonso is from Asturias, the north of spain so not as nationalistic as basque or catalonian people but not all the

way spanish spanish as the people from madrid.

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Ok, this is mildly unsettling:

(From James Allen's blog)

Stefano, do you usually lurk around TF1? :unsure:

I have a confession....I am Stefano....one day I'm selling knock off Ferrari merchandise, and the next I'm running the Formula One team....

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Yeah Alguersuari is a basque last name and his family is originally from the basque country, but I think he was

raise in Cataluna so he probably considers himself Catalonian.

Alonso is from Asturias, the north of spain so not as nationalistic as basque or catalonian people but not all the

way spanish spanish as the people from madrid.

You will understand if I tell you that it makes no sense at all. After all, Madrid being the capital of the country, it should be populated mostly by people from all over Spain... assuming Spain's capital is like capitals all over the planet. Thus, the density of spanish spanish Spaniards should be lower in Madrid than elsewhere... provided Spaniardness is a matter of degree... which in itself is peculiar if, as it appears, it is defined along political lines... does switching parties increase/decrease one's Spaniardness?

I find this amusing.

Somehow I reckon most Spaniards won't.

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You will understand if I tell you that it makes no sense at all. After all, Madrid being the capital of the country, it should be populated mostly by people from all over Spain... assuming Spain's capital is like capitals all over the planet. Thus, the density of spanish spanish Spaniards should be lower in Madrid than elsewhere... provided Spaniardness is a matter of degree... which in itself is peculiar if, as it appears, it is defined along political lines... does switching parties increase/decrease one's Spaniardness?

I find this amusing.

Somehow I reckon most Spaniards won't.

I wouldn't get into a nationalities debate with the Spaniards. Those guys fight Red bulls just for fun!

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