monza gorilla

Team Orders Ban Repealed

38 posts in this topic

There we have it. The rule banning the use of team orders has been struck out. However. The rule regarding bringing the sport into disrepute still stands. On the one hand, hooray. On the other hand, I see things getting even more murky than at present.

What does the panel think?

Wax sage and plentiful.

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I think Alonso brought the sport into disrepute but Raikkonen didn't bring the sport into disrepute in Interlagos 2007. Hamilton didn't bring the sport into disrepute in Hockenheim 2008 and Massa didn't bring the sport into disrepute in Shangai 2008. Why did they not banned Alonso instead?

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Great, so effectively they are saying to the teams this is okay?

Things weren't good with the rule in place, but it at least made the sport look credible. I can see on further problems coming from this and we'll end up with some farcical scenarios that only make Formula One look bad.

In my view, there'd have been a much easier method to get around this. Just ban playing team radios during the race. Sure, it may not be fan friendly and there'd still be people who'd get cynical, but we wouldn't have the damning evidence present that there was with Smedley's words in Germany.

Disappointed.

Edited by JHS

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Just let there be team orders and get on with it already. If team orders were such negative publicity, the teams would lose their sponsors. They don't. I don't think anyone cares when it happens, other than a select group of 20 people on the Internet who will tune in next week anyway.

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Great, so effectively they are saying to the teams this is okay?

Things weren't good with the rule in place, but it at least made the sport look credible. I can see on further problems coming from this and we'll end up with some farcical scenarios that only make Formula One look bad.

In my view, there'd have been a much easier method to get around this. Just ban playing team radios during the race. Sure, it may not be fan friendly and there'd still be people who'd get cynical, but we wouldn't have the damning evidence present that there was with Smedley's words in Germany.

Disappointed.

It happened all the time, just usually in a less blatant way. The law was unenforceable, and to me whilst Ferrari's attempts to lie to the press and fans where disgraceful, they where not the only team up to this. To me, this was the only common sense move.

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Yep - pointless ban in the first place. Let the drivers sign whatever contracts they're happy with and if that means playing second string to the team no. 1 so be it.

If the teams feel they would have a better shot at the WDC by supporting one driver over the other, then that's also their choice. They employ the drivers to do what's best for the team in the WCC and WDC.

As a fan, I'll respect a driver who wins races themselves more, but having a team mate pull aside for you is all within the rules, so fair enough. It's like winning a football match with an own goal. It doesn't feel quite as nice, but a goal is a goal.

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Won't make an iota of difference; team orders were executed using loopholes anyway. Glad it's out in the open. I do think it may prove embarrassing to the #1 drivers of the team to be gifted a victory this way in public.

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Just let there be team orders and get on with it already. If team orders were such negative publicity, the teams would lose their sponsors. They don't. I don't think anyone cares when it happens, other than a select group of 20 people on the Internet who will tune in next week anyway.

Okay, what about the outrage that there was, not just here, but everywhere else too? I don't think that nobody cares. Clearly they do, otherwise the rule that was put in for Ferrari's Austria tricks would never have been put in in the first place.

It happened all the time, just usually in a less blatant way. The law was unenforceable, and to me whilst Ferrari's attempts to lie to the press and fans where disgraceful, they where not the only team up to this. To me, this was the only common sense move.

Yes, I know it happened before, yet with a written rule it was clear that they weren't entitled to do it. Now there isn't a rule it's like "Okay boys, go ahead". I just have a horrible feeling F1 will get a slating from the media if something like Germany happens again, because the only thing anybody will be able to say is "well, it's in the rules".

Sure, it was perhaps it was not policable as a rule, but it still made F1 look credible to have that rule there.

I think it's just a terrible idea to be honest. If they have a rule saying that team's who do use team orders but in such a bad way that it brings the sport into disrepute face sanctions, then maybe F1 would be able to regain some of it's credibility and be able to call itself a sport again, and not a farce.

Edited by JHS

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The Team Orders rule was in place for very few years, so I'm not sure it actually did contribute anything to the sport or its credibility, I didn't notice a huge change when it was first implemented. And even worse if by cheating it the image of the "sport" plummets. Team means work for the team, the details are for the people involved to figure out. I'm all for it. And they knew what they were signing for XD

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Just let there be team orders and get on with it already.

I agree with ya Eric!

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I think I suggested this at some point. FIA reads my posts you know.

The team orders rule was unworkable, the whole point of the rule wasn't to stop team orders anyway, it was to encourage teams to make them less obvious so the public (press) didn't complain. Besides, if the FIA didn't punish Ferrari further for such an obvious breach as in Hockenheim, then there is no point in having the rule anyway.

Teams (excepting Ferrari) are smart enough to know by now that using team orders in a blatant sense is bad for publicity in the short term, so they won't do it anyway, regardless of the rules. Therefore getting rid of the rule makes sense, and applying the incredibly broad "bring the sport into disrepute" rule makes slightly more sense.. although it'll be funny when it happens next time and they try to establish that Ferrari (and it will inevitably be Ferrari :lol:) have brought the sport into disrepute simply by swapping their drivers.

Edited by The Professor

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Okay, what about the outrage that there was, not just here, but everywhere else too? I don't think that nobody cares. Clearly they do, otherwise the rule that was put in for Ferrari's Austria tricks would never have been put in in the first place.

Provide evidence that the sport lost viewership following the controversy because of the controversy and that the team and sport lost sponsorship partners following the controversy because of the controversy. No entity cares enough to make this an issue. When Renault's scandal unfolded, they lost sponsors; therefore, it was bad for the sport. When team orders happen, I don't see sponsors leaving; therefore, it does not place the sport in disrepute, as the sponsors still wish to be associated with F1 and the fans, though bitching and moaning, still watch.

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Okay, what about the outrage that there was, not just here, but everywhere else too? I don't think that nobody cares. Clearly they do, otherwise the rule that was put in for Ferrari's Austria tricks would never have been put in in the first place.

Yes, I know it happened before, yet with a written rule it was clear that they weren't entitled to do it. Now there isn't a rule it's like "Okay boys, go ahead". I just have a horrible feeling F1 will get a slating from the media if something like Germany happens again, because the only thing anybody will be able to say is "well, it's in the rules".

Sure, it was perhaps it was not policable as a rule, but it still made F1 look credible to have that rule there.

I think it's just a terrible idea to be honest. If they have a rule saying that team's who do use team orders but in such a bad way that it brings the sport into disrepute face sanctions, then maybe F1 would be able to regain some of it's credibility and be able to call itself a sport again, and not a farce.

The fact that the teams are still able to be charged for bringing F1 into disrepute suggests to me that the chances are they are still unlikely to do it in such an obvious way. Besides, the horrible PR fallout from the way Ferrari managed it tells you that the other teams should learn from it.

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I think I suggested this at some point. FIA reads my posts you know.

The team orders rule was unworkable, the whole point of the rule wasn't to stop team orders anyway, it was to encourage teams to make them less obvious so the public (press) didn't complain. Besides, if the FIA didn't punish Ferrari further for such an obvious breach as in Hockenheim, then there is no point in having the rule anyway.

Teams (excepting Ferrari) are smart enough to know by now that using team orders in a blatant sense is bad for publicity in the short term, so they won't do it anyway, regardless of the rules. Therefore getting rid of the rule makes sense, and applying the incredibly broad "bring the sport into disrepute" rule makes slightly more sense.. although it'll be funny when it happens next time and they try to establish that Ferrari (and it will inevitably be Ferrari :lol:) have brought the sport into disrepute simply by swapping their drivers.

Thanks, here's your paycheck.

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Provide evidence that the sport lost viewership following the controversy because of the controversy and that the team and sport lost sponsorship partners following the controversy because of the controversy. No entity cares enough to make this an issue. When Renault's scandal unfolded, they lost sponsors; therefore, it was bad for the sport. When team orders happen, I don't see sponsors leaving; therefore, it does not place the sport in disrepute, as the sponsors still wish to be associated with F1 and the fans, though bitching and moaning, still watch.

Just check the angry letters in racing related magazines after Germany. I remember in F1 Racing and AUTOSPORT after that race the letters page was awash with angry letter bemoaning how Ferrari handled it. Fans DO care. Again, Austria 2002. Fans were booing. You can't say people aren't bothered about it; you only have to look at things written after Germany here, elsewhere and in other forms of media to see that.

Sponsors aren't particularly bothered in racing though. I'll explain myself. They get loads of exposure through F1, and I doubt they could really care that deeply who wins and by what way. ING was leaving at the end of 2009 anyway, so that just provided a nice way to get out earlier than planned. Fans on the other hand, DO care. They like to see a fair race, they don't like to see corrupt results, it's amazingly clear to see how vocal some people felt about what happened in Germany to realise it.

Maybe you personally don't care, but it's as clear as a day to see that people do.

The fact that the teams are still able to be charged for bringing F1 into disrepute suggests to me that the chances are they are still unlikely to do it in such an obvious way. Besides, the horrible PR fallout from the way Ferrari managed it tells you that the other teams should learn from it.

It's still pretty meaningless though, isn't it? Being punished for "bringing the sport into disrepute" after the actually event has happened. That's it; the damage is done regardless of what a punishment turns out to be. In the eyes of the media and the fans, it's a farce.

I accept that team orders happen all the time in all types of racing, indeed, it is part of motor racing's history and will continue to be. What I don't agree with though is the complete scrapping of this rule.

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That's not my point, JHS. I know fans were angry. But they still watched the next race, so they obviously weren't that bothered. If you're really bothered, you'll stop watching until you get the changes you want.

Sponsors, for the record, do care. If F1 is a sport of criminals, cheaters, etc., and your brand is in F1, how are people going to react? If it's really a big deal, and people see your logo all over the controversial cars, tracks, drivers, whatever, your brand becomes associated with the controversy. At that point, you have to pull out to save your brand. But if there isn't a lot of backlash, then you don't need to do that. Sponsors react to the fans' reactions. If the fans reacted that harshly and stopped watching, or started to associate Shell, Santander, etc. with cheating or whatever, those sponsors would have bailed. What people say in anger the day after and how people react in the long-term is often so different. It's easy to come on a forum or write a letter or this and that talking about how you'll never, ever, ever watch F1 again or support those cheaters and their sponsors. One week you'll be making excuses for not following through.

If fans and sponsors really saw this as a problem, they'd both leave. They didn't, so there's no real damage to F1.

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That's not my point, JHS. I know fans were angry. But they still watched the next race, so they obviously weren't that bothered. If you're really bothered, you'll stop watching until you get the changes you want.

Sponsors, for the record, do care. If F1 is a sport of criminals, cheaters, etc., and your brand is in F1, how are people going to react? If it's really a big deal, and people see your logo all over the controversial cars, tracks, drivers, whatever, your brand becomes associated with the controversy. At that point, you have to pull out to save your brand. But if there isn't a lot of backlash, then you don't need to do that. Sponsors react to the fans' reactions. If the fans reacted that harshly and stopped watching, or started to associate Shell, Santander, etc. with cheating or whatever, those sponsors would have bailed. What people say in anger the day after and how people react in the long-term is often so different. It's easy to come on a forum or write a letter or this and that talking about how you'll never, ever, ever watch F1 again or support those cheaters and their sponsors. One week you'll be making excuses for not following through.

If fans and sponsors really saw this as a problem, they'd both leave. They didn't, so there's no real damage to F1.

Right!

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That's not my point, JHS. I know fans were angry. But they still watched the next race, so they obviously weren't that bothered. If you're really bothered, you'll stop watching until you get the changes you want.

Sponsors, for the record, do care. If F1 is a sport of criminals, cheaters, etc., and your brand is in F1, how are people going to react? If it's really a big deal, and people see your logo all over the controversial cars, tracks, drivers, whatever, your brand becomes associated with the controversy. At that point, you have to pull out to save your brand. But if there isn't a lot of backlash, then you don't need to do that. Sponsors react to the fans' reactions. If the fans reacted that harshly and stopped watching, or started to associate Shell, Santander, etc. with cheating or whatever, those sponsors would have bailed. What people say in anger the day after and how people react in the long-term is often so different. It's easy to come on a forum or write a letter or this and that talking about how you'll never, ever, ever watch F1 again or support those cheaters and their sponsors. One week you'll be making excuses for not following through.

If fans and sponsors really saw this as a problem, they'd both leave. They didn't, so there's no real damage to F1.

True, it didn't go as far as sponsors leaving, but it did bring the sport into disrepute. It generated a lot of negative press, a lot of annoyed fans, etc, etc. Basically what my argument is, is that now that the FIA have scrapped the rule, this COULD (not will, could) happen more frequently, especially if teams do it in such a way that Ferrari did in Germany. And every time there'd be the same negative press, etc, etc.

It's all very well the FIA saying that teams will be penalised for bringing the sport into disrepute, but it's a bit late isn't it? As I said in my previous post, whatever the FIA would do, whether it was to exclude said team from the results of that race or fine them or whatever, the long term damage to the sport's image is done. If that kept happening, as you say sponsors would leave.

I'm just looking at it from what the sport's image will be like.

I'm not saying we'll see team orders every race, but I just fear that now team orders are allowed by the Governing body, we'll see them used a lot more often than they have been previously.

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It's still pretty meaningless though, isn't it? Being punished for "bringing the sport into disrepute" after the actually event has happened. That's it; the damage is done regardless of what a punishment turns out to be. In the eyes of the media and the fans, it's a farce.

I accept that team orders happen all the time in all types of racing, indeed, it is part of motor racing's history and will continue to be. What I don't agree with though is the complete scrapping of this rule.

How would you suggest it gets policed then? Logically it's almost impossible.

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Get rid of the teams! I've been saying it for ages. Why does nobody listen to my bestest ideas ever... :unsure:

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How would you suggest it gets policed then? Logically it's almost impossible.

You can't, but if you have a rule saying no team orders, chances are they would happen as frequently as if they were allowed.

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My Utopia is different from yours :eusa_think: I guess I'm a bad person and against standardizing incomes :P

Nah, Graham wants everything to be a spec series, I swear, he must've been educated in Sweden; the land where no-one 'fails' :P

:eusa_think: Coincidence with this (off topic for now!)thread.....

This weekend my youngest was scratching his head about some homework for a debating session (no, we didn't do the mass debate joke...) when they get back to school in Jan. The questions were about how we (the kids) want to see the world develop, and for the side that 'wins' the debate, how they're then going to introduce their 'New World' to us all.

The 'pointers' they have been given for discussion are ideological (ask, and I shall give thee the list! Some questions's about people that don't work when they can, the super rich etc etc), so my son's question is... if people's ideology changes according to their circumstances (which he believes it does), no matter how strongly we feel about something, how do we know whether it's right to impose our views on others?

Why did I post this? So many of you with wonderful ways of making your points intelligently, even when I don't agree! I'll show him your answers ;) For what it's worth, I've fought damned hard not to give him my thoughts for the homework, I'll do that when it's done :P

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Imaginary enemies form high above the clouds. In the mountains of Burma.

But. The only ill educated lower class kids I remember from school were the ones taught by imbeciles. As opposed to the kids who were merely thick. Or the ones who didn't turn up.

EDIT: did you know that the team orders ban has been repealed?

EDIT the second: typo stuff

Edited by monza gorilla

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