Autumnpuma

Ferrari Ace Pays The Price

53 posts in this topic

SkySports

Ferrari's Chris Dyer has paid a heavy price for the pit wall mistake that cost Fernando Alonso the 2010 World Championship after the Italian team decided to replace him as head of race track engineering.

Alonso, who started the final race of the season in Abu Dhabi top of the drivers' standings, finished a lowly seventh after the team opted to pit him early to prevent Mark Webber from winning the title. However, both Alonso and Webber finished empty handed when Sebastian Vettel won the race and the title.

Many believe Dyer was responsible for the error and Ferrari have reacted by replacing him with former McLaren engineer Pat Fry while the team are yet to confirm whereto from here for Dyer.

"Pat Fry will, in addition to his current role, take on the job of head of race track engineering," a Ferrari statement said. "Up until yesterday, this position was held by Chris Dyer and his role within the company will be redefined in the next few days."

Another change at the Italian squad sees former Red Bull Racing and McLaren employee Neil Martin take charge of the new Operations Research department. Martin will work under technical director Aldo Costa.

******

So is this deserved? Based on this one incident, I'd say no. Considering all the mistakes in Ferrari strategy over the past few years I'd say it's deserved. The buck's gotta stop somewhere and Dyer is the man it stops with. I find it amusing that a McLaren guy will be taking over the spot, however.

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Yep. Ferrari really snatched defeat from the jaws of victory at Abu Dhabi. They can't allow it to happen again.

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I'd fire that guy in the car first for just driving around in circles and not making a single attempt at an overtake. Ferrari says it's all about the team, but the guy on the team that had the most say in the end result didn't even attempt anything other than press his radio button.

Fire the lot of them...Luca included :P

You win some you lose some. I always fail to see why there has to always be a scapegoat. Always seems stupid to me to fire the coach when it's the players kicking the damn ball around and playing like poop in the first instance. Coaches have no say once the whistle goes off. Same goes for motorsport. If a guy doesn't attempt an overtake in an hour of racing, then maybe fingers should be pointed in that direction first?

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So is this deserved?

Mmmh...hard call there. Basically, because Ferrari's (and Alonso's if you want) season is hard to judge as well. On one hand, they had an impressive comeback from out of nowhere, not only because of the (huge) help from other teams' own blunders but they also built for the first time in a while their own momentum. The team seemed lost at sea for a good part of the season, just as we saw them in 2009 (and, in many aspects during their more successfuls 2007 and 2008 seasons) and suddenly they seemed focused, on track and dangerous per se. Whether it was partly due to Alonso or not is a debate irrelevant as I am talking about the team as a whole. They recovered a bit of their lost spirit and should be proud at least for that. The title was a long shot only becoming a serious possibility thanks to RBR erratic performance and McLaren's mechanical decadence. Ironically, they deserved a lot better on the WCC, but then we would have to talk about Massa...

In that sense, Dyer, as an integral part of that reborn Ferrari, should not have been penalised so hard for a mistake that was just another one in a chain of mistakes that started in the first races of the season. Should Nando have got the boot for screwing up his Monaco chances?

On the other hand, part of that reborn spirit means some degree of ruthlessness (in fact, Ferrari was always synonimous of lots of ruthlessness). And like you said, the line had to be drawn somewhere and, regretfuly for Dyer, he was at the worng place at the wrong time when it happened.

Time will tell if they removed a tonsil as part of their growing process, or they removed their penis... (Cue to Brad: insert jokes about Alonso and d#cks here)

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That's fair.

@Handy, firing the coach over the players sends a message to the entire team, forcing the players to evaluate their own games. If an entire team sucks, it's usually a coaching issues. If a team is up 3-0 in a 7 game series, and then drops 3, and then is up 3-0 in the seventh game only to lose the game 4-3 and the series 4-3, there's a serious motivation issues. And when that same team can win 8-1 one night and lose the next few games, and score 6 goals in one game and still lose it, and when that same team has two super-star goaltenders in a sport where both goaltenders play (usually split the games around 60-22, but since the number one guy is old and off hip surgery, 50-32 makes more sense) but only uses one to the point he is so worn out he plays like Sh#t, so then they bring the young talent in only to pull him after 10 minutes over goals that weren't solely his fault (if you save 92.7% of all shots you see in a sport where goalies usually see 30-40 shots per game, yet you're still averaging 2.65 goals per game, that's a defense problem, not a goalie problem) and kill his confidence and end up with another Andrew Raycroft, it's time to fire coach Claude Julien. If you know the players are good enough, you need to bring that out of them through coaching staff, not fire them and let another team take advantage of their talents.

But mostly it's symbolic. It tells the players/drivers that the big guys are watching and aren't afraid to make changes. They'll take notice.

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It's not deserved but Ferrari are looking for something when they make a change like that, I think it's not like just changing A for B. Besides, Abu Dhabi was a big disappointment and it produced an earthquake in Italy. If they find what they're looking for with this change then nobody will say it was a bad idea, if they make more mistakes in 2011... Oh-Oh.

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I'd fire that guy in the car first for just driving around in circles and not making a single attempt at an overtake. Ferrari says it's all about the team, but the guy on the team that had the most say in the end result didn't even attempt anything other than press his radio button.

A dirty little secret of aero is that some teams design the rear of their cars to create more of a wake than others. The result is that a trailing car finds it almost impossible to overtake. Renault, I have read in some places, have such a rear (and have had for quite some time). The fault may not be all Alonso's. In that same race I believe another car found it difficult to overtake a Renault...

You win some you lose some. I always fail to see why there has to always be a scapegoat. Always seems stupid to me to fire the coach when it's the players kicking the damn ball around and playing like poop in the first instance. Coaches have no say once the whistle goes off. Same goes for motorsport. If a guy doesn't attempt an overtake in an hour of racing, then maybe fingers should be pointed in that direction first?

You fire someone if they're doing a bad job. Also, your analogy is wrong. Stefano is the coach and Dyer is the one calling race strategy. I could point to at least three bad calls from Dyer over the course of the season which resulted in lost points. A scapegoat is someone who is made to take the fall for another person's mistake. Dyer is taking the fall for his own mistakes. A demotion seems fair to me. You want to blame the driver but the driver puts his trust in the race engineer...and all the great driving in the world cannot always make up for bad calls from the pit wall.

A properly run team identifies problems and fixes them. Dyer has been given multiple chances and, like Sam Michael over at Williams, needs to be 're-assigned'.

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Put it this way then...would Schumi have thought "gee...that sounds like the best idea...i'll follow the pitwall's lead, even though I know I could build a bit of a margin if I stay out a little longer on faster tyres...." ????

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Good point. I would say that Schumi would not. So is it the driver's fault that he follows bad advice or does the fault lie with the giver of the bad advice? Alonso's job is to drive the car and trust his team to make good decisions. Bottom line, for me, is that Dyer, not Alonso, was employed to figure out race strategy and he dropped the ball a few times too many.

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I agree with that, but some proportion of blame must go to the driver. No matter who it is. At the end of the day, he is the one driving the car, can see the cars around him, and these days, even look at the big screens to see what is happening in the pits or somewhere else on track. They may not have all the facts infront of them, but an astute driver will always ask is this the best option for me? For all the credit Alonso gets, he is still far off being a complete driver because he relies on the pit wall too much, and doesn't seem to make any call's himself (like Button or Schumacher for instance). I know that the coverage can be biased, but all we hear on the radio from him is complaints about others...I've never heard (or can not recall) him prompting a race strategy on the radio, nor in an interview afterwards say that he made the call...it's always "the team told me to do this". That, a complete driver, does not make.

So in Dyers regard, I think it's a bit of a knee jerk reaction. If anyone needs firing at Ferrari it's Stefano...he does not seem up to the task, and everything he has said about Massa this past year, and even just recently, highlights that he doesn't know how to manage a team...first rule being not to wash your clothes in public. He may be justified to tell Massa to pull his trousers up, but not via the media.

However, it's not like we can do anything except rabbit on about someone no one knows or has really heard of...poop, maybe Smedley should have been fired for saying sorry to Massa since that brought more heat onto the team than simply the poor call in the final race....

Ferrari lost the best team manager ever in Todt (even for all his Frenchy evilness, he was still shoulders above the rest), and he has left a huge vacuum in his place, which will take some time to fill. If we were grading the Ferrari workforce, I'd give a B to Alonso, a C+ to Massa, and a D or D- to the pitwall....they haven't managed their drivers at all well this year, putting a huge chunk of resentment into Massa (you can't tell me he doesn't feel shafted up the pooper shooter), allowed Alonso to feel like he walks on water and can do no wrong at all, and have too often bleated to the press, plus have the most outspoken team principal in Luca de Moz that doesn't know when to shut his trap.

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That's fair.

@Handy, firing the coach over the players sends a message to the entire team, forcing the players to evaluate their own games. If an entire team sucks, it's usually a coaching issues. If a team is up 3-0 in a 7 game series, and then drops 3, and then is up 3-0 in the seventh game only to lose the game 4-3 and the series 4-3, there's a serious motivation issues. And when that same team can win 8-1 one night and lose the next few games, and score 6 goals in one game and still lose it, and when that same team has two super-star goaltenders in a sport where both goaltenders play (usually split the games around 60-22, but since the number one guy is old and off hip surgery, 50-32 makes more sense) but only uses one to the point he is so worn out he plays like Sh#t, so then they bring the young talent in only to pull him after 10 minutes over goals that weren't solely his fault (if you save 92.7% of all shots you see in a sport where goalies usually see 30-40 shots per game, yet you're still averaging 2.65 goals per game, that's a defense problem, not a goalie problem) and kill his confidence and end up with another Andrew Raycroft, it's time to fire coach Claude Julien. If you know the players are good enough, you need to bring that out of them through coaching staff, not fire them and let another team take advantage of their talents.

But mostly it's symbolic. It tells the players/drivers that the big guys are watching and aren't afraid to make changes. They'll take notice.

Thats far too many numbers to read in one paragraph...all too mathematical to me.....but I disagree. So there. Nah nah nah. Mainly because they DON'T take notice...they just snigger in the change room thinking of their million dollar salary....

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This is assuming that Dyer's move is a punishment. One thing we have seen from Ferrari since the mad old days is a much less reactive approach when there have been mistakes. I might be wrong but I think Dyer is highly valued by the team. He may have felt that he wanted the change himself.

Massa underperformed and he's going nowhere.

typos.

Edited by dribbler

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I agree with that, but some proportion of blame must go to the driver. No matter who it is. At the end of the day, he is the one driving the car, can see the cars around him, and these days, even look at the big screens to see what is happening in the pits or somewhere else on track. They may not have all the facts infront of them, but an astute driver will always ask is this the best option for me? For all the credit Alonso gets, he is still far off being a complete driver because he relies on the pit wall too much, and doesn't seem to make any call's himself (like Button or Schumacher for instance). I know that the coverage can be biased, but all we hear on the radio from him is complaints about others...I've never heard (or can not recall) him prompting a race strategy on the radio, nor in an interview afterwards say that he made the call...it's always "the team told me to do this". That, a complete driver, does not make.

Agreed. and this is not some random Alonso bashing from my part.

Let's look at Abu Dhabi...What is not mentioned here, is the position where Alonso qualified.

1st. He qualified 3rd, was that really the best he could do in that race, or did he make some mistake somehow somewhere.

2nd. He got overtaken by Button, quite easily. What does that say? Alonso put HIMSELF in a position where the team had to make a gambling call with the addition of concentrating too much on Webber. So, for that a scapecoat is found and Dyer, who was always admired and has a good record in F1, has had to pay the price. Is this fair? They, the team, making mistakes and bringing on some unnessary changes, is in fact bringing on their own downfall, with a team manager who certainly is not up to scratch! Dominicalli spoke about almost resigning after Abu Dhabi, I wished he would as it will only benefit the team.

And Mike, for all the mistakes you think Dyer has made, should'nt he then be applauded for bringing Alonso back in the game with some excellent race strategies, or does'nt it work both ways...

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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I'd fire that guy in the car first for just driving around in circles and not making a single attempt at an overtake. Ferrari says it's all about the team, but the guy on the team that had the most say in the end result didn't even attempt anything other than press his radio button.

Fire the lot of them...Luca included :P

You win some you lose some. I always fail to see why there has to always be a scapegoat. Always seems stupid to me to fire the coach when it's the players kicking the damn ball around and playing like poop in the first instance. Coaches have no say once the whistle goes off. Same goes for motorsport. If a guy doesn't attempt an overtake in an hour of racing, then maybe fingers should be pointed in that direction first?

Deserved. Last 3 years of Ferrari strategy were disastrous. Nando ran wide -4 times at least- trying to overtake petrov; there are some amusing games to improve memory...

Edited by Argento Reloaded

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We win as a team and lose as a team. Except when we can pin the blame on someone.

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We win as a team and lose as a team. Except when we can pin the blame on someone.

Oh How I agree with you. One of Kimi's fav lines at Ferrari btw. Unfortunately the same sentiment could'nt be said of Ferrari once Santander money came along.

sad I say, very sad.

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Deserved. Last 3 years of Ferrari strategy were disastrous. Nando ran wide -4 times at least- trying to overtake petrov; there are some amusing games to improve memory...

He ran wide twice. There are indeed amusing games to improve memory... :P

Edited by BradSpeedMan

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I think Ferrari have been lacking in strategy in recent years, whether reassigning Dyer will do anything to help that remains to be seen. Personally I think Ferrari's problems probably run a little deeper than that.

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He ran wide twice. There are indeed amusing games to improve memory... :P

Noop! You say 2 and i say 4 so the truth will be 3!!!!:P:P

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Agreed. and this is not some random Alonso bashing from my part.

Let's look at Abu Dhabi...What is not mentioned here, is the position where Alonso qualified.

1st. He qualified 3rd, was that really the best he could do in that race, or did he make some mistake somehow somewhere.

2nd. He got overtaken by Button, quite easily. What does that say? Alonso put HIMSELF in a position where the team had to make a gambling call with the addition of concentrating too much on Webber. So, for that a scapecoat is found and Dyer, who was always admired and has a good record in F1, has had to pay the price. Is this fair? They, the team, making mistakes and bringing on some unnessary changes, is in fact bringing on their own downfall, with a team manager who certainly is not up to scratch! Dominicalli spoke about almost resigning after Abu Dhabi, I wished he would as it will only benefit the team.

And Mike, for all the mistakes you think Dyer has made, should'nt he then be applauded for bringing Alonso back in the game with some excellent race strategies, or does'nt it work both ways...

It's not all the mistakes *I think* he has made, it's the mistakes he *has* made.

We win as a team and lose as a team. Except when we can pin the blame on someone.

True, but a team is only as strong as it's members. At some point you have to make a decision about an individual's performance and if it's hurting the team. I agree with Ferrari's estimation of Dyer's performance. The trouble with the phrase 'pinning the blame on someone' is that sometimes you *need* to pin blame. Trick is pinning the right person.

I think Ferrari have been lacking in strategy in recent years, whether reassigning Dyer will do anything to help that remains to be seen. Personally I think Ferrari's problems probably run a little deeper than that.

I'm of the opinion that Brawn was the trackside tactician in Ferrari's heyday and Dyer was a dutiful lieutenant carrying out orders very, very well. Now Dyer's in the hot seat and we're seeing how little Dyer actually contributed to Ferrari's great tactical calls of yesteryear.

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True, but a team is only as strong as it's members. At some point you have to make a decision about an individual's performance and if it's hurting the team. I agree with Ferrari's estimation of Dyer's performance. The trouble with the phrase 'pinning the blame on someone' is that sometimes you *need* to pin blame. Trick is pinning the right person.

I was paraphrasing something Mikey Cobblers said, in a pithy way. Truth is I agree with you. Identify the weak link and remove it. Time will tell if they have removed the right link. Doing nothing was never an option.

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There's always the possibility that Alonso pitched such a fit about Dyer's call in that last race that Stefano took action, but that still argues for Dyer being replaced. If a driver loses confidence in his race engineer, what's the point of keeping that race engineer on the pit wall, especially in light of other mistakes made by the race engineer?

Edited by Autumnpuma

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There's always the possibility that Alonso pitched such a fit about Dyer's call in that last race that Stefano took action, but that still argues for Dyer being replaced. If a driver loses confidence in his race engineer, what's the point of keeping that race engineer on the pit wall, especially in light of other mistakes made by the race engineer?

Well if that were true, isn't that a bit too much tail wagging the dog? Brat and spoilt come to mind... :P

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Well if that were true, isn't that a bit too much tail wagging the dog? Brat and spoilt come to mind... :P

Not sure if I should reply to this because I know the credibility of my arguments will be zero if Nando is involved :lol: but I think you are letting your dislike for Nando taking you too far.

See, you can't have it both ways: either you have the "win-at-all-costs-cheat-if-you-have-to" Nando that everybody hated at Hockenheim or the "I'm-so-lame-I-couldn't-even-overtake-Petrov-in-a-Renault" with the WDC at a stake. Choose one and stick with it :P

To blame Nando for not trying to overtake Petrov and just sit down and watch the WDC slip off from his fingers passively would be like blaming Hamilton of having no balls, Kimi for being hopelessly slow, Schumi for lacking experience, Button for driving in a ragged style, or Bernie for being too scrupulous. You can hate him all you want to, but you can't just say that just because it seemed so from the outside at some moment of the race.

As for the tactical mistakes, Nando himself took the blame right after the race for not having contested a strategy that he saw as wrong. Truth is, the team had few opportunities to exert an unorthodox tactic, and most of those cases they chose the worst path. Nando is to blame as he is usually active when it comes to his race tactics, buut even in that case, it is just part of his duties so not enough to let him carry all the blame, mostly when he shone in almost every other duty he was given. Dyer, on the other hand, was MAINLY responsible for team tactics. If tactics fail who would you blame the most?

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Well if that were true, isn't that a bit too much tail wagging the dog? Brat and spoilt come to mind... :P

You're picking a few words out and missing my point.

I ask you, if a driver loses confidence in his race engineer, what should happen to the engineer?

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