Autumnpuma

Ferrari Ace Pays The Price

53 posts in this topic

Well, you would have a look at the whole picture and not just one half of it.

Is the engineer bad, or is the relationship between the two bad that the driver has a fit about him/her?

It's all very a simplistic view to just say the engineer is the problem. Maybe his strategies are good, but the driver can't follow them through. So lets just get rid of the engineer????

(And, no, that doesn't just apply to Nando...it applies to any driver in any car in any formula)

Like I said earlier, it's a team effort, and if Massa has had his pooper shooter reamed by all and sundry in the team, why should Nando be let off for just sitting there for an hour? It was his championship to lose, and he succeeded in doing so. If the engineer made a bad call, and you come out behind someone, then you should try and pass...not oversteer your self off the track twice (which is what he did...they were not overtake attempts...these can be distinguished by the car infront taking evasive action). Lets be perfectly clear..Nando is IN the car....he is the one that can do the most out of ANYONE in the team whilst a race is in action. Everyone else is just sitting on a chair watching a tele....

Re my good friend the Quiet One...I don't hate Alonso. I think he acts like a spoilt brat, yes. I think he creates more disharmony in a team than harmony - he is one of those people that polarise. Is he the second coming? Or did he just get that mantle of best driver because he was the first to win a championship after Mikey boy and so inherited a lot of credit because he beat the best? I used to think he was a complete driver, but for several seasons now he's proving that he is not. There is no complete driver out there at the moment. Not even Mikey. He used to be. But he's just a shadow of his former self. Pretty good shadow, but not the driver he was.

Anyways...got a three year old that wants to go clean granddad's garage so we can put the race car on the trailer...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole overtaking criticism is too harsh though. The Renault was much faster on the straight compared to the Ferrari iirc. What could Nando do? Petrov was on the brakes at least a car length before him as I remember it, which means Alonso would've needed to brake 2 car lengths after Petrov started. It's not realistic. These guys are already on the limit of the brake each corner. Any move would have been almost certain to have ended in collision, and then no doubt people would criticise him for acting rashly and not waiting. He didn't lose that race and championship by himself at all just because he was driving the car, it was Ferrari's strategy decision which put him there. Moving Dyer reflects that (whether he is the right guy to move or not).

Edited by The Professor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, you would have a look at the whole picture and not just one half of it.

Is the engineer bad, or is the relationship between the two bad that the driver has a fit about him/her?

It's all very a simplistic view to just say the engineer is the problem. Maybe his strategies are good, but the driver can't follow them through. So lets just get rid of the engineer????

(And, no, that doesn't just apply to Nando...it applies to any driver in any car in any formula)

Like I said earlier, it's a team effort, and if Massa has had his pooper shooter reamed by all and sundry in the team, why should Nando be let off for just sitting there for an hour? It was his championship to lose, and he succeeded in doing so. If the engineer made a bad call, and you come out behind someone, then you should try and pass...not oversteer your self off the track twice (which is what he did...they were not overtake attempts...these can be distinguished by the car infront taking evasive action). Lets be perfectly clear..Nando is IN the car....he is the one that can do the most out of ANYONE in the team whilst a race is in action. Everyone else is just sitting on a chair watching a tele....

Re my good friend the Quiet One...I don't hate Alonso. I think he acts like a spoilt brat, yes. I think he creates more disharmony in a team than harmony - he is one of those people that polarise. Is he the second coming? Or did he just get that mantle of best driver because he was the first to win a championship after Mikey boy and so inherited a lot of credit because he beat the best? I used to think he was a complete driver, but for several seasons now he's proving that he is not. There is no complete driver out there at the moment. Not even Mikey. He used to be. But he's just a shadow of his former self. Pretty good shadow, but not the driver he was.

Anyways...got a three year old that wants to go clean granddad's garage so we can put the race car on the trailer...

I hear you, and understand your point (and somewhat agree with it), but did you answer my question? What is the team to do with an engineer that their driver doesn't trust anymore?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Strip him naked, cover him in chocolate sauce, top him off with some whipped cream.....????? :P :P

You'd try someone else. Question is though....has Nando lost trust in him at all? Or is it just Stefano covering his own butt now that he's reneged on stepping down himself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hear you, and understand your point (and somewhat agree with it), but did you answer my question? What is the team to do with an engineer that their driver doesn't trust anymore?

you have some inside info to suggest this as fact? Anyway, hre is the answer. The driver and engineer should still get on with their job, as they are part of a TEAM, regardless if who's not trusting who. They shuld leave their differences aside

Edited by BradSpeedMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not all the mistakes *I think* he has made, it's the mistakes he *has* made.

You still a fan of Alonso after the mistakes he *has* made, after being labelled a complete driver and being exposed as not?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's always the possibility that Alonso pitched such a fit about Dyer's call in that last race that Stefano took action, but that still argues for Dyer being replaced. If a driver loses confidence in his race engineer, what's the point of keeping that race engineer on the pit wall, especially in light of other mistakes made by the race engineer?

Though Dyer was not Alonso's race engineer, I believe Andrea Stella is. Funnily enough, the last time Dyer was someone's race engineer was with Kimi in 2007. Since then, he was promoted, Stefano took Todt's place and Ferrari lost all the eye it had on race tactics = no WDC's. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dyer is gone. So have been many others and much more worthy of note... but that's F1.

Hate on...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dyer is gone. So have been many others and much more worthy of note... but that's F1.

Agreed.

Clearly you are not yourself today. I noticed the improvement immediately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you have some inside info to suggest this as fact? Anyway, hre is the answer. The driver and engineer should still get on with their job, as they are part of a TEAM, regardless if who's not trusting who. They shuld leave their differences aside

Many reports point to Dyer's call at the last race, and Alonso not being happy about it, as being a reason for his re-posting.

Clearly you've not worked in a team where trust is an issue. You cannot force trust and a lack of trust causes many troubles.

You still a fan of Alonso after the mistakes he *has* made, after being labelled a complete driver and being exposed as not?

I don't know how to answer this because I still think Alonso is a 'complete' driver. My opinions about Alonso are even more complex than those about Kimi so I hesitate to relate them. Only three posters would grok it without twisting or simplifying it and it doesn't seem worth the effort.

Though Dyer was not Alonso's race engineer, I believe Andrea Stella is. Funnily enough, the last time Dyer was someone's race engineer was with Kimi in 2007. Since then, he was promoted, Stefano took Todt's place and Ferrari lost all the eye it had on race tactics = no WDC's. ;)

Thanks, but you need to catch up. Todt never called tactics or strategy for a race weekend, Brawn did. Dyer took over for Brawn's strategic and tactical duties during a race, overseeing both drivers. We can lay at his feet all the bad calls for both drivers because any decision by the drivers' individual race engineers were surely Dyer's responsibility.

Dyer is gone. So have been many others and much more worthy of note... but that's F1.

Hate on...

No hate here. Go fish in other waters. I found this topic interesting and I'm glad to see others have as well. That you don't is good to know, but, well, deserves a shrug from me.

Edited by Autumnpuma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed.

Clearly you are not yourself today. I noticed the improvement immediately.

Clearly... I'm smiling. Thanx.

No hate here. Go fish in other waters. I found this topic interesting and I'm glad to see others have as well. That you don't is good to know, but, well, deserves a shrug from me.

No need to feel guilty. I was not talking about you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, but you need to catch up. Todt never called tactics or strategy for a race weekend, Brawn did. Dyer took over for Brawn's strategic and tactical duties during a race, overseeing both drivers. We can lay at his feet all the bad calls for both drivers because any decision by the drivers' individual race engineers were surely Dyer's responsibility.

I'm sure you are right in that Todt never called tactics or strategy, however, it is a fact that since Todt left and Dyer was promoted from being a race engineer (a job he obviously did very well), Ferrari's race tactics have been poor. This can not be blamed only on Dyer, as it was Luca Baldisseri who took Brawn's position when he left and only after he failed was Dyer brought to do the job. He has now failed as well. I believe the reason lies with the way Domenicali leads the team, though I obviously can not put my finger on it. I don't recall Ferrari tactics being poor in 2007 with Todt+Baldisseri combo, but 2008-2010 with Domenicali+Baldisseri/Dyer have seen some disastrous decisions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd fire that guy in the car first for just driving around in circles and not making a single attempt at an overtake. Ferrari says it's all about the team, but the guy on the team that had the most say in the end result didn't even attempt anything other than press his radio button.

Fire the lot of them...Luca included :P

You win some you lose some. I always fail to see why there has to always be a scapegoat. Always seems stupid to me to fire the coach when it's the players kicking the damn ball around and playing like poop in the first instance. Coaches have no say once the whistle goes off. Same goes for motorsport. If a guy doesn't attempt an overtake in an hour of racing, then maybe fingers should be pointed in that direction first?

If the coach of a football team pulls off his best players and puts on his reserves in a grand final match - then he deserves the boot. This is synonymous with what happened in Abu Dhabi.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah...whoever replaced Kimi with Alonso needs to be given the boot :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If football team is not playing well you do not change team, but the coach. In case of Ferrari coach is Domenicali. When coach was Todt (including 2007) everything worked. In 2008. SFM started having problems with strategy decision and pit crew performance. One of the blunders was Domenicali not reading his e-mail thus Ferrari being only team starting race with wrong tyres. Ultimatelly it is Domenicali's decision to assign roles within a team. So if Dyer was wrong man that is his decision, especially if he was wrong man for two and a half seasons..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All you peoples - give up on the football analogies - they just don't work.

Football manager does not equate to F1 team principle

Football players != Team members

If a football team's not working it can be caused by players being crap, the coach being crap, the players not liking the coach, the players not liking each other, the owners not providing enough support for the coach / players, the management not giving the coach enough funds to buy in new players to replace old legs during the transfer window.

Sometimes changing a football coach is the best thing to do. Sometimes getting rid of a chippy player is the best course to take. Sometimes selling the team to a slightly less incompetent looking group of wealthy Americans might do the job. Liverpool have tried everything and they're still ****ed :lol:

F1 is equally complicated and blame is equally difficult to pin on anyone and invariably gets pinned on various team members by other team members (with more collective clout) usually to protect their own arses.

It is what it is. Dyer alone will know if he feels responsible as will every other member of the Ferrari team for their own part in the balls up. Let them round on whoever they please if it makes them stronger and if it doesn't? - well that's their problem too. Just don't take it as proof of anything - it might be, it might not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thinking about it, Ferrari haven't done very well since 2004! The only WDC they've won since then was gifted to them by McLaren's implosion in 2007 - no wonder they like Alonso. :D So they had a long wait in the 80s and 90s for a championship, a brief period of dominance from around 99-04 inclusive, then a 7 year period of almost constant near misses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure you are right in that Todt never called tactics or strategy, however, it is a fact that since Todt left and Dyer was promoted from being a race engineer (a job he obviously did very well), Ferrari's race tactics have been poor. This can not be blamed only on Dyer, as it was Luca Baldisseri who took Brawn's position when he left and only after he failed was Dyer brought to do the job. He has now failed as well. I believe the reason lies with the way Domenicali leads the team, though I obviously can not put my finger on it. I don't recall Ferrari tactics being poor in 2007 with Todt+Baldisseri combo, but 2008-2010 with Domenicali+Baldisseri/Dyer have seen some disastrous decisions.

Ferrari's race engineering structure has been to have one overall race engineer, or track engineer, who oversees both drivers and ultimately is responsible for how the team as a whole will approach the race. That was Brawn's position, then Baldisseri, then Dyer. In addition, each driver has an engineer that oversees their own strategies (pit stops, car set-up, etc.). This 'driver engineer' reports to the race engineer. Dyer did well whilst under Brawn as Brawn was very good at race strategy. All Dyer really had to do was ensure Brawn's plans were carried out.

Baldisseri didn't do well as Brawn's replacement because he has a very hands-off, let-the-driver's-engineer-do-their-job sort of attitude. Baldisseri called the major strategy but let those under him determine the tactics to get there. Dyer showed during this period that he could make a few good decisions so when Baldisseri was replaced, it was with Dyer. Dyer has since proven that he's not quite ready for the main hot seat and has been replaced.

Of course, the buck stops at the top and you could pin everything on Stefano. But as the team principal, responsible for everything, it's his duty to keep finding people that will work out in the roles he appoints them to. I'm sure that if we see the team struggling as a whole, Stefano's performance will be looked at, but aside from the race tactics, the team is doing well. The car is progressing and is reliable enough. Stefano is doing what a manager should be doing: looking for good people to fill positions. Part of the requirement for any job is working with your boss, and if what you're saying is true, Dyer failed to do even that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ferrari's race engineering structure has been to have one overall race engineer, or track engineer, who oversees both drivers and ultimately is responsible for how the team as a whole will approach the race. That was Brawn's position, then Baldisseri, then Dyer. In addition, each driver has an engineer that oversees their own strategies (pit stops, car set-up, etc.). This 'driver engineer' reports to the race engineer. Dyer did well whilst under Brawn as Brawn was very good at race strategy. All Dyer really had to do was ensure Brawn's plans were carried out.

Baldisseri didn't do well as Brawn's replacement because he has a very hands-off, let-the-driver's-engineer-do-their-job sort of attitude. Baldisseri called the major strategy but let those under him determine the tactics to get there. Dyer showed during this period that he could make a few good decisions so when Baldisseri was replaced, it was with Dyer. Dyer has since proven that he's not quite ready for the main hot seat and has been replaced.

Of course, the buck stops at the top and you could pin everything on Stefano. But as the team principal, responsible for everything, it's his duty to keep finding people that will work out in the roles he appoints them to. I'm sure that if we see the team struggling as a whole, Stefano's performance will be looked at, but aside from the race tactics, the team is doing well. The car is progressing and is reliable enough. Stefano is doing what a manager should be doing: looking for good people to fill positions. Part of the requirement for any job is working with your boss, and if what you're saying is true, Dyer failed to do even that.

You forget that they spent a year to develop the 2010 challenger, of course the car had to be fast and reliable, and still RedBull beat them....

Edited by BradSpeedMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ferrari have been lacking a lot in the strategy department over the past 3 seasons IMO, but whether Dyer is the only one to blame... hard to say. This seems a little bit knee jerk reactionary to me,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You forget that they spent a year to develop the 2010 challenger, of course the car had to be fast and reliable, and still RedBull beat them....

Red Bull beat everybody, so by your logic should we fire everybody not employed by Red Bull? Red Bull's aero solutions took everyone by surprise but Ferrari did well to catch up throughout the season. Stefano lead them well, mostly.

Ferrari have been lacking a lot in the strategy department over the past 3 seasons IMO, but whether Dyer is the only one to blame... hard to say. This seems a little bit knee jerk reactionary to me,

Probably, but I go back to the magic question: What do you do with a race engineer when the driver(s) lose confidence in him? Fair or not, he's gotta go, there just isn't any other solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

decision was made to bring witchdoctor that will be in mercy of gods, the mighty god of rain didnt like dyer in malasya and in few more battles, his bones and bat wings were out of date , and team gifts to gods were not worthy.

so new witchdoctor is in battle, i just hope that they all turn their prays to god of wisdom, not to god of luck.

so that allmighty warrior Nando and his humble esquire Felipe will have more chance for glory.

:thbup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-kay

You speak............................weird.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

decision was made to bring witchdoctor that will be in mercy of gods, the mighty god of rain didnt like dyer in malasya and in few more battles, his bones and bat wings were out of date , and team gifts to gods were not worthy.

so new witchdoctor is in battle, i just hope that they all turn their prays to god of wisdom, not to god of luck.

so that allmighty warrior Nando and his humble esquire Felipe will have more chance for glory.

:thbup:

Witchdoctor no available, bring in tanner with Ugg boots that very worthy are. Boots make feet of mighty warrior heavy on blessed throttle and red chariot travels fast towards battle with sun god.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now